The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

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Anonymous Bosch
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The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

What follows is the speech Ryoga Vee was prevented from delivering in San Francisco over the weekend by violent anti-free speech protestors, at an event that was described by Nancy Pelosi (among others) as "a white supremacist rally."

Whether or not one agrees with his particular opinion and politics, I personally find it utterly loathsome that speech such as this is now routinely squelched by violent anti-free speech protestors, further facilitated by media and politicians willing to echo their narrative. YMMV, but I defy anyone here to read this in its entirety and come away thinking, "Phew; I'm grateful that vitriolic white supremacist was prevented from exercising his right to free expression."
Ryoga Vee wrote:Who Am I:
I'd like to start off by giving a small introduction of who I am and how I got here.

My name is Ryoga Vee. I was born in a small town in Southern Oklahoma, but the bulk of my upbringing was in Greenville MS. In my early days, I was surrounded by poverty, imagery of of the confederacy, and attended two schools named after Robert E Lee. I even lived not too far from where a Sundown sign stood until 1995 -- and if you don't know what a sundown sign is, it's pretty much a marker that tells black folk in no uncertain terms to get indoors before sunset. I’m telling you this just so you get an idea of where I've been, and that racism, ignorance, and bigotry have been a constant in my life.

What really turned my head was when I witnessed the savage acts of violence done to peaceful Trump supporters in San Jose, CA last year. There were no Nazi flags or KKK hoods at that gathering -- just a bunch of mostly elderly men and women who were attacked and beaten in the streets while the police stood by, mere feet away, and shrugged. When the dust settled, the mayor blamed Trump for what took place and ignored the irresponsibility of his citizens and the inaction of law enforcement. And while I'm not a Trump supporter, I said to myself, “That's not right.”

Months later, Milo Yiannopoulos was tearing up the college speaking circuit, pissing off liberals and conservatives alike for being a young, gay, jewish provocateur. I read the headlines that made assertions that he was a white nationalist, homophobic, anti-semitic, racist. And I thought to myself, “Wait a second, the gay, jewish dude who can't stop talking about his black boyfriend?” So, out of curiosity, I went down to Berkeley just to hear the man speak. I wanted to know for myself if he really was as dangerous as people said. Instead of hearing Milo, however, I watched some 1500 Antifa protesters set fires, attack people with sticks and mace, and cause upwards of $600,000 in property damage. Even I was the target of assaults, and I was called a nazi just for showing up. And, once again, I said to myself, “That's not right.”

Skipping ahead, in March of this year I once again found myself witnessing a repeat of horrific acts of violence unfolding on the streets of Berkeley. I saw an elderly man laid out at on the MLK park lawn, wrapped in bandages. I watched as law enforcement stood down while citizens begged for help. I wondered why there was no one brave enough to stand up to these kinds of thugs. But that afternoon I also saw brave men and women charge in to defend the public from violent anarchists who have continually caused havoc in the bay area. Those made a huge to sacrifice of their own safety to stand up for what’s right.

Sacrifice:
Each of us out here today made some form of sacrifice to be here -- some with time, some with distance and travel, and others in our personal lives. Just being a part of this has cost me numerous friends.

These times are not supposed to be easy. Regardless of whether you are left, right, or centrist, you're making a sacrifice by being here. Some of us might be doxed by the end of the day just for showing up. There is a chance someone will mistake your intentions and place your very livelihood in jeopardy. Some of you might be arrested for protesting and demonstrating for what you believe in. Make no mistake, I greatly respect your presence here. But, sadly, some of you will be bruised and bloody after being here. But freedom is not just given to you. It's not a right bestowed by god. We have to earn it. And we have to continually fight for it. Just by being here today, you are showing your willingness to fight. And regardless if you are for or against the speakers here today, you are participating in the process. Our governing leaders tried REALLY hard to prevent this from happening. We’re here so that on the day you want to take this space and have a demonstration, it's not censored by your mayor or congress.

Censorship:
That’s what’s happening here: it's a form on censorship. My mayor and congresswoman knew this was not a nazi rally. They knew weeks in advance that there were no white supremacists here, but they called you up to come out and protest. They are using you as their defensive arm for censorship. And I’m here to tell you, don't believe the hype. Don't take the bait. Don't fall in that trap.

The vast majority of you are here because you heard a lie. Every single major local news publication kept spreading the lie that this was a white nationalist rally.
I read that the Southern Poverty Law Center listed Joey Gibson as “alt-right" and Patriot Prayer specializes "in rallies aimed at provoking far-left and anarchist groups.”
The SF Examiner posted an article, “‘White supremacist’ patriot rally coming to San Francisco!”
SFGate: “White nationalists planning rallies in SF, Berkeley”
KRON 4: “Mayor Ed Lee is calling on federal officials to reject permit for alt-right group”
KTVU: “Mayor Ed Lee denounced Saturday's event as hateful”
Representative Barbara Lee just said Tuesday that this was a Neo-Nazi rally. All of it is FAKE NEWS!
Even when these outlets are told directly that their information is wrong, they double down.

Did you know Joey sent out open invitations to both Ed Lee and Nancy Pelosi to speak on this very stage? If they really wanted an opportunity to speak to the citizens of this great city, to champion causes like inequality, to speak out against hate and racism, what better place to do it? “Where dey at, doe?!”

And it's because we have Liberal democratic leaders who categorize conservative views as hateful and divisive. As a liberal myself, I'm here to tell you I want to hear from the other side. But day by day y’all make it harder.

It saddens me deeply when I read the news and…

Black women like Diamond and Silk are targeted by YouTube for speaking against the narrative and having the wrong politics.

Patriots like Robert Peete get called “house negro” and “uncle tom” for not buying into the liberal agenda.

Just the other day, I saw black conservative R.C. Maxwell get choked, dragged, and sucker punched for just standing on the wrong side of the political aisle, and for standing up against illegal immigration that affects black people far more than the coddled gentrified kids in the mission that march for it. And it's not that I don't like undocumented people -- but it's us that have to fight over the last few crumbs of affordable housing in the city.

Truth be told, I think black people are THE most patriotic among us. We fought hard to earn our right to vote in this country. And many of us did not make it to see that victory. So don't be upset that fellow brothers and sister want to vote conservative. Be pissed off when they DON'T vote. That’s what’s really holding us back.

Oppressors:
It reminds me of black folks and that crab bucket mentality -- and if you don't understand that phase, then this part ain't for you. But I'm here to tell you that just because another brother doesn't share your vision does not make him your enemy. Conservative black folk are most likely the strongest voice out there that wants to see us succeed. They don't blindly pick a side, but do research, attend meetings, and look at each candidate before stepping up to the ballot box.

And I'm happy they are out there -- not because I agree with them or the policies of the current administration, but moreso because I don't. I don't want to live in a world where everyone thinks the same, follows the same path and drinks the same kool-aid. I want to hear from the other side, learn from different opinions, and see the perspectives of those that walked a different path.

I told you before that I grew up in Greenville, Mississippi. I was surrounded by confederate imagery. I saw the KKK first hand. As an adult, however, I choose to pay them no mind. The reality is that while white supremacists and so-called nazis exist, they are not my oppressors. A nazi can't stop me from being educated. A nazi can't prevent me from getting a job. A nazi can't take away my right to vote -- but the government can. The unfair judicial system that harshly punishes my black and brown brothers and sisters can. Corrupt judges and crooked politicians can, like a poorly focused congresswoman. Those are my oppressors.

Some of you are standing next to my oppressors right now. I didn’t want to talk about the elephant in the room, but there are a lot of people who identify as Antifa out there. Antifa is my oppressor. You riot in the streets yelling “Black Lives Matter,” but smash the windows of black-owned business, hispanic-owned business. There was a youth center in downtown Oakland that primarily served people of color that never recovered from the actions of Antifa riots. These actions are taking opportunity away from my people. Black people, don't be fooled by the wolf in sheep's clothing. When we stand up and march against injustice, we get the dogs and the firehoses. When Antifa march, they get a smile and a nod. Hell, it might as well be a police escort.

When I look out onto the streets and see tent cities stretched from San Francisco to Berkeley, I don't pout and say “awww, that's sad...” NO! I want to know who’s responsible. We have Democratic mayor, city council, congress, and governor and we’re still out here struggling. White supremacists aren't creating homelessness on the street. Nazis aren't taking our health care. I don't see any confederates evicting people from their homes. But I do see a lack of leadership from the city that allows for rich foreign interests to come buy up all the land and not pay their fair share in taxes, and kick us to the curb. And they wonder why homeless are on the streets and why people are living in warehouse spaces.

Man... I wish we had the gall to to take this energy we have here today, all this hate and anger, and direct it at our true oppressors. Close your eyes for just a second and imagine the imagery if we took the 10,000 people here right now and marched on city hall, marched on over to Nancy Pelosi’s house, took a trip up to Sacramento with this same vigor and fire, and demanded change. Demand an end to private prisons. Health care. Affordable housing.

But you won’t. Y’all don't care. The establishment has been railroading us since we were born and until we wake up and stay woke this cycle will continue.

If I can step back for just a second: It’s funny how I rarely see other black folk with BLM shirts on. It’s likely because we don't need it. We live the struggle every day. And while some of my caucasian friends out there might have them on right now, the shirts don't impress me. You picked up a $15.99 shirt off Amazon Prime and clicked the free two day shipping for a shirt made by child labor in the Philippines for 7 cents an hour just so you can post up on Instagram to show the world how woke you are. That ain't cutting it. If you want to impress me, post a picture of your donation check to the united negro college fund. Post a photo with the Valencia filter of a check made out to the NAACP. Donate to any of the charities that Colin Kaepernick is promoting that help children in the intercity get a leg up and the opportunity to break free from the ghetto. Until then, all I see you doing is jumping on the bandwagon and participating in cultural appropriation. My culture.

Ending:
If you take nothing else from my words today, please walk away with this: You can't fight hate with hate. Truth be told, racists need love too. You can't blame somebody for the ideology they were born into. It's the system of the world that tells us to hate. You can't blame a white person for not liking black people if everything they see, read, and hear are stereotypical images of black folk. That constant image will only perpetuate that person’s beliefs. Hate perpetuates hate. But love begets love. You wanna be loved, give love.

Many of you chant bash the fash. I'm here to tell you from experience that only drives the nail harder into their ideology. It solidifies their beliefs. If you truly hate their ideology, love the person behind it. Stop and ask yourself how they got there in the first place. What did they see, experience, what were they taught that brought them to this place?

I challenge all of you, TODAY: Seek out someone from the other side and ask them how their day is going. No politics, no Trump, no left or right. Just ask how they are, and wish them well. See how much you have in common. I ask you to do this because it's hard. It’s the hardest thing you could possibly do today. I'll be honest, I'd much rather square up and swing on someone than than talk to them. But I put it out there because it's what should be done, and so much good can come from it.

Thank you for your time.

~ Ryoga Vee
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." — P. J. O'Rourke
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by stessier »

I'm confused how he was prevented from giving the speech. The reporting is rather poor. It looks like they applied for a permit, cancelled the rally, decided to rally elsewhere without a permit, and were stopped by the city. Counter protestors showed up, but there was no reports of violence that I found (admittedly a limited search). It seems like they should be upset with either the city or their failure to follow the permitting process - not counterprotesters.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Kraken »

It's a confusing time to be an American. I firmly believe in free speech and the need to protect unpopular and minority viewpoints. At the same time, I draw the line at the hate speech that one can reasonably expect from Neo-nazis and Klansmen. While they still have the rights of speech and assembly, they must be opposed and drowned out. We all know what happens when intolerance is tolerated.

The tricky part is knowing in advance that the line is going to be crossed.

Wife and me decided not to go to the Boston rally because the latest and best news coverage that day indicated that the provocateurs were not going to be there (which turned out to be true). It looked like a legitimate right-wing free speech rally, and more power to them. But it was really hard to gauge that in advance. I don't want to tacitly tolerate Nazis and Klansmen, but neither do I want to interfere with the other side's rights.

But I suppose most people just follow what their tribe says.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

stessier wrote:I'm confused how he was prevented from giving the speech. The reporting is rather poor. It looks like they applied for a permit, cancelled the rally, decided to rally elsewhere without a permit, and were stopped by the city. Counter protestors showed up, but there was no reports of violence that I found (admittedly a limited search). It seems like they should be upset with either the city or their failure to follow the permitting process - not counterprotesters.
The speech is fairly self-explanatory in that regard:
Ryoga Vee wrote:My mayor and congresswoman knew this was not a nazi rally. They knew weeks in advance that there were no white supremacists here, but they called you up to come out and protest. They are using you as their defensive arm for censorship. And I’m here to tell you, don't believe the hype. Don't take the bait. Don't fall in that trap.

The vast majority of you are here because you heard a lie. Every single major local news publication kept spreading the lie that this was a white nationalist rally.
I read that the Southern Poverty Law Center listed Joey Gibson as “alt-right" and Patriot Prayer specializes "in rallies aimed at provoking far-left and anarchist groups.”
The SF Examiner posted an article, “‘White supremacist’ patriot rally coming to San Francisco!”
SFGate: “White nationalists planning rallies in SF, Berkeley”
KRON 4: “Mayor Ed Lee is calling on federal officials to reject permit for alt-right group”
KTVU: “Mayor Ed Lee denounced Saturday's event as hateful”
Representative Barbara Lee just said Tuesday that this was a Neo-Nazi rally.
Senator Feinstein also denounced the event in much the same way. Ad hominem characterisations from prominent pols and local media have consequences, which were clearly germane to its cancellation over threats of political violence (which, in turn, were predictably exacerbated by such agitational aspersions, particularly in a city like San Francisco weeks after the brutal murder in Charlottesville). In terms of the threatened political violence, this Washington Post article sums it up:

Black-clad anarchists storm Berkeley rally, assaulting 4
WashingtonPost.com wrote:BERKELEY, Calif. — Black-clad anarchists on Sunday stormed into what had been a largely peaceful Berkeley protest against hate and attacked at least four people, including the leader of a politically conservative group who canceled an event a day earlier in San Francisco because of fears violence could break out.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Kurth »

I really don't believe this is an isolated incident, either. There is a growing problem with a violent group of people on the fringe left, and we ignore it at our peril. Just because the speech they are shutting down is speech we find to be unworthy (even repugnant) doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to what they're doing. It's not new. It's getting worse. It needs to be dealt with.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by hepcat »

While I completely and wholeheartedly agree that we should always do our best to encourage and protect free speech, I do find it hard to support the false equivalencies that arise when discussing this topic in regards to true hate groups.

If you march under a swastika and wave a picture of Adolf Hitler, or hide your face under a white hood while carrying a burning cross, your end goal is the death or displacement of innocent people on a mass scale. The groups opposing those people only believe that they are there to stop that hate. Unfortunately, some of them are utilizing the same brutal tactics that those they fight against have historically used...but that still does not put them in the same league.

As for some growing trend towards the death of free speech, I don't see it. If a group shows up to discuss fiscal responsibility, or the downsizing of government, I highly doubt we'll have armed clashes. If a group shows up waving swastikas and brandishing lit torches, they are advocating taking the right of free speech away from millions of people. As well as their lives and/or homes.

Also, Milo Yiannopoulos whole schtick is that he WANTS liberals to hate him. He WANTS them to show up at his university appearances and scream bloody murder outside the venue. He bills himself as "the most fabulous supervillain on the internet". I don't think we should be holding him up as a victim considering that he relies (and encourages) controversy and protest in order to sell his books and web store memorabilia.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

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I don't know what the linked image is supposed to be because Malwarebytes is going off like a lefty at a Milo appearance whenever I try to open it.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Holman »

MALWAREBYTES = CENSORSHIPS!!1!
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by hepcat »

It's Smoove, so I imagine it's yet another purple unicorn being ridden by a half naked valkyrie brandishing a spear while a monkey driving a flying audi chases them across a playground populated by elderly people playing hopscotch.

He has such a weirdly specific fetish..
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

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Smoove is a dirty hotlinker.

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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

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No, I am not. I had it hosted at a site that was apparently not great. Re-hosted elsewhere.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Kurth »

I disagree. There's no fucking "Paradox of Tolerance" when we're talking about free speech. This "paradox" idea is a steaming pile of donkey shit being used to justify censorship.

The only false equivalence being drawn here is the one that suggests tolerating intolerant speech is the same thing as tolerating violent action. And who the hell gets to decide what speech we should "tolerate" and what speech is just intolerable? What a load of crap.

Of course the Nazis and Klan and other scumbag groups have violence and oppression as the cornerstone of their belief structures, but they are free to talk about that until they're blue in the face. Because those belief structures are rotten to the core, they will wither on the vine in the face of robust opposition. But that opposition can't be to shut down the speech before it gets out or to disrupt it with violent protest.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

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Kurth wrote:I disagree. There's no fucking "Paradox of Tolerance" when we're talking about free speech. This "paradox" idea is a steaming pile of donkey shit being used to justify censorship.

The only false equivalence being drawn here is the one that suggests tolerating intolerant speech is the same thing as tolerating violent action. And who the hell gets to decide what speech we should "tolerate" and what speech is just intolerable? What a load of crap.

Of course the Nazis and Klan and other scumbag groups have violence and oppression as the cornerstone of their belief structures, but they are free to talk about that until they're blue in the face. Because those belief structures are rotten to the core, they will wither on the vine in the face of robust opposition. But that opposition can't be to shut down the speech before it gets out or to disrupt it with violent protest.
No, I'm pretty sure the cartoon said we'd turn into Nazis if we don't censor their beliefs. It's a pretty compelling drawing.

Fortunately, the First Amendment can't be hand waved away by the cartoon.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by hepcat »

Kurth wrote: Because those belief structures are rotten to the core, they will wither on the vine in the face of robust opposition.
If that were true, world history would be very different.

As for the rest of your diatribe, tone it down. No one here was attacking you. We were having a civil discussion until you came charging in like...wait for it...a lefty protestor at a Milo appearance.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Kurth »

hepcat wrote:
Kurth wrote: Because those belief structures are rotten to the core, they will wither on the vine in the face of robust opposition.
If that were true, world history would be very different.
Hmmm . . . because the rise of the Third Reich and the Soviet Union were fueled by free speech? I don't think that's what you're intending to imply, but I'm not sure what your point is here. My point is, the philosophy behind protecting speech is that (1) we have a degree of faith in people (at least more than in governments) to identify what's worthy and to promote good ideas and relegate shitty evil ones; and (2) free expression is the bulwark against oppressive government.
hepcat wrote:As for the rest of your diatribe, tone it down. No one here was attacking you. We were having a civil discussion until you came charging in like...wait for it...a lefty protestor at a Milo appearance.
No, Sir, I will not tone down my defense of your basic rights! :horse: :wink:

But seriously, I'm not attacking anyone either. I am attacking the idea that there is a tension between advocating tolerance of dissenting (even ugly) views and tolerance itself. I think that's a false and dangerous notion and one that could get out of hand really, really quickly.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Rip »

I agree with Kurth.

There is a lot of speech I find hateful, particularly when it comes to Israel and the Jewish people. Yet I never had any desire to go throw rocks and urine at them.

If we can tolerate the likes of NAMBLA talking about grown men and young boys having sex we should be able to tolerate any speech.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by RunningMn9 »

Kurth wrote:relegate shitty evil ones
I don't have much of an interest in defending the cartoon - but almost all of human history is the story of the shitty evil ideas gaining traction and enabling horrific things to be done in their service.

In any case, other than a comment that any movement that persecutes people should be outside of the law - I don't understand what is wrong with the notion that "tolerance" doesn't need to include tolerating intolerance.

If Joe want's to skin human babies alive, I don't have to be tolerant of that viewpoint. I shouldn't be tolerant of that viewpoint, even if Joe hasn't skinned any human babies alive (yet).
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by hepcat »

Rip wrote:I agree with Kurth.

There is a lot of speech I find hateful, particularly when it comes to Israel and the Jewish people. Yet I never had any desire to go throw rocks and urine at them.

If we can tolerate the likes of NAMBLA talking about grown men and young boys having sex we should be able to tolerate any speech.
Perform a search under Rip's profile for the word "Muslim". Then let me know how supportive he is of free speech for that group.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Rip »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Kurth wrote:relegate shitty evil ones
I don't have much of an interest in defending the cartoon - but almost all of human history is the story of the shitty evil ideas gaining traction and enabling horrific things to be done in their service.

In any case, other than a comment that any movement that persecutes people should be outside of the law - I don't understand what is wrong with the notion that "tolerance" doesn't need to include tolerating intolerance.

If Joe want's to skin human babies alive, I don't have to be tolerant of that viewpoint. I shouldn't be tolerant of that viewpoint, even if Joe hasn't skinned any human babies alive (yet).
Being intolerant of a viewpoint != becoming violent against people expressing that viewpoint.

I'm all for calling them out and even peacefully protesting but once you start hurling objects and physically attacking people you have totally lost my support.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Skinypupy »

Rip wrote:
RunningMn9 wrote:
Kurth wrote:relegate shitty evil ones
I don't have much of an interest in defending the cartoon - but almost all of human history is the story of the shitty evil ideas gaining traction and enabling horrific things to be done in their service.

In any case, other than a comment that any movement that persecutes people should be outside of the law - I don't understand what is wrong with the notion that "tolerance" doesn't need to include tolerating intolerance.

If Joe want's to skin human babies alive, I don't have to be tolerant of that viewpoint. I shouldn't be tolerant of that viewpoint, even if Joe hasn't skinned any human babies alive (yet).
Being intolerant of a viewpoint != becoming violent against people expressing that viewpoint.

I'm all for calling them out and even peacefully protesting but once you start hurling objects and physically attacking people you have totally lost my support.
While the logical side of me agrees, the emotional side of me sees no problem with Nazis getting punched.

When your viewpoint is advocating violence and/or genocide for anyone on the planet who doesn't fit your narrowly defined standards, then I have a really hard time sympathizing with you on anything that happens to you as a result of expressing that viewpoint publicly. That probably makes me an awful person...I'll have to live with that.

(the general you, not Rip specifically)
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by RunningMn9 »

Skinypupy wrote:While the logical side of me agrees, the emotional side of me sees no problem with Nazis getting punched.

When your viewpoint is advocating violence and/or genocide for anyone on the planet who doesn't fit your narrowly defined standards, then I have a really hard time sympathizing with you on anything that happens to you as a result of expressing that viewpoint publicly. That probably makes me an awful person...I'll have to live with that.
That makes you normal. Because fuck Nazis.

The cartoon is largely non-specific regarding what form "intolerance of intolerance" should take, although I suspect that it too is totally cool with stupid Nazis being punched in the face.

All that said, the things that antifa are engaged in do NOT qualify (IMO) as "intolerance of intolerance". They are just being violent shit-heads and deserve our ridicule and scorn.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by El Guapo »

I think it's a special brand of obtuseness to argue that intolerant movements should be "outside the law" at a time when we have an authoritarian-minded president supported by a Congress and Supreme Court of the same party.

Who exactly does the cartoonist think will be in charge of deciding which movements are intolerant and therefore "outside of the law"?
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Kurth »

El Guapo wrote:I think it's a special brand of obtuseness to argue that intolerant movements should be "outside the law" at a time when we have an authoritarian-minded president supported by a Congress and Supreme Court of the same party.

Who exactly does the cartoonist think will be in charge of deciding which movements are intolerant and therefore "outside of the law"?
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Kurth »

Skinypupy wrote:
Rip wrote:
RunningMn9 wrote:
Kurth wrote:relegate shitty evil ones
I don't have much of an interest in defending the cartoon - but almost all of human history is the story of the shitty evil ideas gaining traction and enabling horrific things to be done in their service.

In any case, other than a comment that any movement that persecutes people should be outside of the law - I don't understand what is wrong with the notion that "tolerance" doesn't need to include tolerating intolerance.

If Joe want's to skin human babies alive, I don't have to be tolerant of that viewpoint. I shouldn't be tolerant of that viewpoint, even if Joe hasn't skinned any human babies alive (yet).
Being intolerant of a viewpoint != becoming violent against people expressing that viewpoint.

I'm all for calling them out and even peacefully protesting but once you start hurling objects and physically attacking people you have totally lost my support.
While the logical side of me agrees, the emotional side of me sees no problem with Nazis getting punched.
Sure. But that's why the emotional side of you (us) needs to get checked. Of course we want to see Nazis (and Westboro Baptists, and KKK, and Richard Spencer, and . . .) get punched in the face. It provides quick, emotional satisfaction. That's why we need something bigger and more important to restrain those baser instincts. That something is a bedrock commitment to freedom of speech.
Skinypupy wrote:When your viewpoint is advocating violence and/or genocide for anyone on the planet who doesn't fit your narrowly defined standards, then I have a really hard time sympathizing with you on anything that happens to you as a result of expressing that viewpoint publicly. That probably makes me an awful person...I'll have to live with that.

(the general you, not Rip specifically)
And when your viewpoint is killing innocent, unborn babies and/or taking people's guns and/or setting up government run death-panels, then there may be a whole raft of people that have a hard time sympathizing with you on anything that happens to you as a result of expressing that viewpoint publicly. That probably makes them awful people ... they'll have to live with that.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Jeff V »

El Guapo wrote: Who exactly does the cartoonist think will be in charge of deciding which movements are intolerant and therefore "outside of the law"?
We already have existing law that defines hate crimes. There are also plenty of precedents that simply speaking of illegal activity is enough to get you locked up if there is apparent intent (ie, there's no real analog saying we tolerate talk about child sex abuse/pornography when people have been arrested and convicted of speaking about it with criminal intent). Nazi/KKK speech by definition advocates illegal activity -- denying equal rights to those of different race or religion than themselves. If they really want a platform to espouse such crap, they first need to legalize the things they wish to advocate. Good luck with that.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Skinypupy »

Kurth wrote:
Skinypupy wrote:When your viewpoint is advocating violence and/or genocide for anyone on the planet who doesn't fit your narrowly defined standards, then I have a really hard time sympathizing with you on anything that happens to you as a result of expressing that viewpoint publicly. That probably makes me an awful person...I'll have to live with that.

(the general you, not Rip specifically)
And when your viewpoint is killing innocent, unborn babies and/or taking people's guns and/or setting up government run death-panels, then there may be a whole raft of people that have a hard time sympathizing with you on anything that happens to you as a result of expressing that viewpoint publicly. That probably makes them awful people ... they'll have to live with that.
I get what you're saying, but the fact that there is an equivalence drawn between advocating racial genocide and "taking people's guns" is disturbing on lots of levels.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by El Guapo »

Jeff V wrote:
El Guapo wrote: Who exactly does the cartoonist think will be in charge of deciding which movements are intolerant and therefore "outside of the law"?
We already have existing law that defines hate crimes. There are also plenty of precedents that simply speaking of illegal activity is enough to get you locked up if there is apparent intent (ie, there's no real analog saying we tolerate talk about child sex abuse/pornography when people have been arrested and convicted of speaking about it with criminal intent). Nazi/KKK speech by definition advocates illegal activity -- denying equal rights to those of different race or religion than themselves. If they really want a platform to espouse such crap, they first need to legalize the things they wish to advocate. Good luck with that.
Hate crimes are different from prohibiting movements (or speech by movements) that preach intolerance. Hate crimes take an action that's already illegal (assaulting someone) and increase the penalty if the crime was committed with the intent of targeting the person because of their ethnicity / race / etc. It's not criminalizing / limiting speech.

Not totally sure I follow your point about child sex abuse. Talking about child sex abuse or pornography is not illegal. Planning on engaging in child sex abuse (and maybe some types of pornography) is illegal, but that's really part of the whole notion of 'conspiracy' - planning on committing a crime and taking affirmative steps towards that crime is illegal - the police don't need to wait until you have completed the crime to arrest you. But that's not prohibiting particular speech, that's prohibiting planning a specific crime.

Nazi / KKK speech by itself does not by definition advocate illegal activity. They are advocating that a whole bunch of wholly reprehensible things (denial of equal rights by race) should be legal. But that's not a crime - otherwise advocating for the legalization of anything at a time that said thing is illegal (like, say, marijuana, or advocating for gay marriage prior to the gay marriage SCOTUS opinion) would also be illegal.

Which is not to say that Nazi / KKK speech *can't* cross into illegal territory - e.g., "let's go lynch some people." But that any type of speech by them is illegal is wrong, and would have all sorts of terrible consequences for society and for minority groups.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Kurth »

Jeff V wrote:
El Guapo wrote: Who exactly does the cartoonist think will be in charge of deciding which movements are intolerant and therefore "outside of the law"?
We already have existing law that defines hate crimes.
And those laws require a crime to be committed. They don't define hate speech as a crime in and of itself.
Jeff V wrote:There are also plenty of precedents that simply speaking of certain criminal activity is enough to get you locked up if there is apparent intent (ie, there's no real analog saying we tolerate talk about child sex abuse/pornography when people have been arrested and convicted of speaking about it with criminal intent).
Fixed that for you.
Jeff V wrote:Nazi/KKK speech by definition advocates illegal activity -- denying equal rights to those of different race or religion than themselves.
Speech advocating for illegal activity is not illegal in and of itself. If it were, how would we ever change the laws?
Jeff V wrote:If they really want a platform to espouse such crap, they first need to legalize the things they wish to advocate. Good luck with that.
Yep. They'll certainly need some luck, because you've created a perfect catch-22. No speech in favor of illegal activity until you have legalized that activity.

[Edited to add: What El Guapo said. Sorry for the redundant post. Forgot to hit submit.]
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Nightwish »

Skinypupy wrote:
Kurth wrote: And when your viewpoint is killing innocent, unborn babies and/or taking people's guns and/or setting up government run death-panels, then there may be a whole raft of people that have a hard time sympathizing with you on anything that happens to you as a result of expressing that viewpoint publicly. That probably makes them awful people ... they'll have to live with that.
I get what you're saying, but the fact that there is an equivalence drawn between advocating racial genocide and "taking people's guns" is disturbing on lots of levels.
Especially when what's being talked about is removing guns from people who aren't mentally or emotionally stable.
You can also compare it abortion by abused women, or prefering private profit-driven death panels or a lot of things the right talks about because it's always a "me first" thing. There's no equivalence.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Enough »

I know we all know this, but keep in mind it's a two-way street. Just as the evils of this speech were greatly exaggerated, the evils of anitfa types can be as well. And then after awhile, what do you know? You get Berkley and Charlottesville once people buy into it as real and start partaking themselves.

In fact, Russian bots are doing everything they can to gin up controversy and discord in this country. Then there's the lefties pretending to get beat up by alt-righters and the reverse. And of course folks just making stuff plain up. It's sort of a subterfuge.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Kurth »

Nightwish wrote:
Skinypupy wrote:
Kurth wrote: And when your viewpoint is killing innocent, unborn babies and/or taking people's guns and/or setting up government run death-panels, then there may be a whole raft of people that have a hard time sympathizing with you on anything that happens to you as a result of expressing that viewpoint publicly. That probably makes them awful people ... they'll have to live with that.
I get what you're saying, but the fact that there is an equivalence drawn between advocating racial genocide and "taking people's guns" is disturbing on lots of levels.
Especially when what's being talked about is removing guns from people who aren't mentally or emotionally stable.
You can also compare it abortion by abused women, or prefering private profit-driven death panels or a lot of things the right talks about because it's always a "me first" thing. There's no equivalence.
Dude. You are completely missing the point here.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Little Raven »

The "paradox of tolerance" is a load of bullcrap.

Tolerance doesn't mean we roll over and die. It doesn't mean we don't resist. It just means that we're content to let you have your say, no matter how brain-dead it is.

To quote one of my favorite movies...

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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Rip »

The moment you begin trying to select certain speech that is ok to punch someone in the mouth for and other speech that doesn't you have stepped in the mother of all slippery slopes.

A slippery slope is not somewhere you want to place the definition of justified/unjustified violence.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Zarathud »

The government needs to permit it. I don't.

The biggest help you can give a Nazi is to tell people they need to be heard and understood. Or that the people opposing Nazis are just as bad and "both sides" are wrong. Fuck that bullshit.

If I feel the need to punch a Nazi, I'll serve the time. That's what civil disobedience is about. Feeling strongly enough about stopping something you see as unjust that you'll pay the price society demands.

But Nazis glorify violence and know to expect it. They purposefully incite it. Speaking out is good but even better is mocking them to undermine their carefully planned martyr complex. The German town turning the Nazi march into an anti-Nazi walkathon is pretty awesome, too.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Zarathud »

Rip wrote:The moment you begin trying to select certain speech that is ok to punch someone in the mouth for and other speech that doesn't you have stepped in the mother of all slippery slopes.
That's a stupid argument. We draw lines over appropriate/inappropriate actions every day. If you start making "your mama jokes" in public then you can expect to be punched in the mouth before too long.

Drawing the line against Nazis should be pretty damn easy. We didn't keep attacking everyone after World War II. We knew when to stop after beating Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

If your moral compass is so broken this is hard for you, then it's time for some soul searching.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Rip »

Zarathud wrote:
If I feel the need to punch a Nazi, I'll serve the time. That's what civil disobedience is about. Feeling strongly enough about stopping something you see as unjust that you'll pay the price society demands.
That is fine as long as you are willing to accept that Nazi may pump you full of lead or cut your throat and be within his rights for doing so. Tis a very dangerous thing to do.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Rip »

Zarathud wrote:
Rip wrote:The moment you begin trying to select certain speech that is ok to punch someone in the mouth for and other speech that doesn't you have stepped in the mother of all slippery slopes.
That's a stupid argument. We draw lines over appropriate/inappropriate actions every day. If you start making "your mama jokes" in public then you can expect to be punched in the mouth before too long.

Drawing the line against Nazis should be pretty damn easy. We didn't keep attacking everyone after World War II. We knew when to stop after beating Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

If your moral compass is so broken this is hard for you, then it's time for some soul searching.
Actions != speech.

If you punch someone in the mouth for making a joke about your momma they would be within their rights to press charges, or just shoot you. Stupid thing to die over.

I don't need to fix my moral compass, apparently you do if you think assaulting people because you didn't like what they said is ok.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Little Raven »

Zarathud wrote:The government needs to permit it. I don't.
Because extrajudicial justice has always worked out so well in this country.

Well, you go at it man. Self-appointed judge, jury, and executioner. But you'll deserve the time you get.
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Re: The most dangerous hate speech you never heard

Post by Zarathud »

The difference between us is that you think speech doesn't hurt but yet shooting someone is "within your rights." If you can justify overreacting to a punch by "standing your ground" and shooting, then why wouldn't I be "within my rights" just punching a Nazi?

That moral compass of yours is definitely wrong when shooting people is ok but punching a Nazi isn't.
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