Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

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Kurth
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Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Kurth »

I need some help understanding this one. What's the problem with two ex-Google guys launching a startup called "Bodega" that aims to disrupt the convenience store business using automated kiosks and an app? I've been reading this morning about all the uproar online, and I honestly don't get it.
The launch of startup Bodega outraged the internet on Wednesday following reports that the founders wanted the business to replace small convenience stores, often called bodegas.
The co-founders, former Google employees Paul McDonald and Ashwath Rajan, issued an apology for offending those who felt its mission targeted entrepreneurial immigrants..
. . .
"... Even though I looked at this name for several months pre-launch, why didn't I anticipate the ways it could be interpreted?" he wrote. "It didn't occur to me that some people would see the word and associate its use in this context with whitewashing or cultural appropriation."

The company's product includes pantry boxes stocked with non-perishable, convenience store items, that are placed in locations shoppers frequent such as gyms and dorms and buildings. Users unlock the box with an app and are charged for whatever the cameras record them taking.
Also, there was this from the Daily Beast:
Silicon Valley has never met an existing product they won’t reinvent and claim; somewhere, a room full of 24-year-old dudes named Chase are probably drawing up plans for a potassium rich oblong yellow fruit you can open with an app. Bodega was no different. The startup, founded by two Google alumni, aimed to make real-life mom & pop bodegas obsolete by placing unmanned kiosks containing frequently-purchased convenience items in apartments and gyms and other places with heavy foot traffic. Users could download an app to purchase the items without even having to go into a store. They explained to Fast Company that what they were doing was fine; they’d talked to focus groups. Some of the groups even contained Latinos.

The backlash against the dumb startup and it’s dumber founders was so intense that before the end of the day, the pair felt compelled to apologize. Perhaps they had talked to the wrong Latinos. Perhaps they didn’t understand how beloved the corner store is to vast swaths of the population. Perhaps some things don’t need to be disrupted. Perhaps disruption is usually an annoyance.
Setting aside whether it's a good business model for a moment, if I were going to launch a start-up with that description, I would think "Bodega" would be a perfect name for it. Or is the problem not with the name, but with the mission itself? If it's a defense of small business owners generally and a protest against automation, I think I would understand it a little better (but not necessarily agree with it).

My gut reaction is, maybe it's a stupid idea, but whitewashing and cultural appropriation? I thought bodegas were pretty much mainstream urban fixtures today, and I wasn't aware they were anyone's cultural sacred cow. Also, I have a real issue with citing "cultural appropriation" as a negative thing. Cultural appropriation is pretty much how we grow as a society. It's the bedrock principle on which 95% of the good things about this country are based. But now people have to apologize for it?

Maybe I'm missing something here, so I'd be very much interested in other perspectives.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by El Guapo »

I think mainly the anger is centered around: (1) rich people connected to a large corporation threatening to put (predominantly minority) small business owners out of business - bodega owners, presumably - which tends to be unpopular; and (2) a feeling that it's rubbing salt on the wound to use the name of those small minority businesses (their category) while trying to drive them out of business.

I don't know that I agree with it (or really care all that much), but it's not too surprising. There was much gnashing of teeth in my liberal gentrifying neighborhood when Whole Foods came in to replace a closing neighborhood bodega. And you know, race and class are somewhat touchy subjects.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Kurth »

El Guapo wrote:I think mainly the anger is centered around: (1) rich people connected to a large corporation threatening to put (predominantly minority) small business owners out of business - bodega owners, presumably - which tends to be unpopular; and (2) a feeling that it's rubbing salt on the wound to use the name of those small minority businesses (their category) while trying to drive them out of business.

I don't know that I agree with it (or really care all that much), but it's not too surprising. There was much gnashing of teeth in my liberal gentrifying neighborhood when Whole Foods came in to replace a closing neighborhood bodega. And you know, race and class are somewhat touchy subjects.
Yeah, that's probably right. If the outrage is the same as when a Wal-Mart comes in and disrupts small, locally owned businesses, I understand (but don't necessarily agree with) that.

I think it's the whole focus on "cultural appropriation" that bothers me.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Max Peck »

I haven't seen anyone criticize the vending machine Bodega Bros in terms of cultural appropriation per se, but it wouldn't surprise me.

The WaPo jumped on the bandwagon with this rant:
If you’re keeping up, you may have already identified the major problems here; the reasons people on Twitter were practically foaming at the mouth with fury at the announcement of this visionary new company. Let’s parse them, shall we?

Number one: What the hell is an “unmanned pantry box?” IT’S A HIGHFALUTIN’ VENDING MACHINE. Congratulations, you just tricked people into giving you millions in venture capital for a vending machine. At best, this is a new Juicero — a product that sounds great on paper, but is completely unnecessary in real life, because a better or easier version of it already exists.

Number two: To think that this box of tampons and Cheez-It can replace a bodega is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a bodega is. Bodegas serve fresh egg sandwiches! They’re places where the community can interact! They’re woven into the fabric of cities, and only someone who has never really spent time in one would aim to eliminate them with a midcentury modern-looking glass case. To add insult to injury, the company’s logo is a cat, a nod to the cats that populate many of New York’s bodegas.

Number three, and we’ve saved the most offensive for last: Why are these entrepreneurs so eager to make obsolete a business that is one of the best ways for recent immigrants to this country to build a life and provide for their families? It’s ignorant at best, and chillingly heartless at worst. Bodegas aren’t a problem to be solved — they’re a life vest for people who may have come to this country with nothing. They’re the American Dream.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Moliere »

Shove Your Manufactured 'Bodega' Vending Machine Outrage
It's the story, not the company, that pushes the idea that this vending machine is a threat to mom-and-pop shops. The founders merely present their tool as a convenience for places like offices, gyms, and dorms.

It's true that if such a machine is placed in an apartment building, it could occasionally save somebody a trip to the nearby store. But even if these little pantries are extremely responsive in adjusting to the residents' needs, there is absolutely no way they're going to replace a bodega in most communities. It's simply not possible.

But few actually took the time question the assumption presented by Fast Company and instead decided to be angry on Twitter, accusing the Bodega bros of facilitating gentrification and cultural appropriation and trying to destroy small businesses. And that allowed other media sites—like Teen Vogue here—to piggyback with lazy "here are some angry tweets" journalism.

So let's state what should have been immediately obvious to anybody who stopped and looked at this thing for a moment: These "Bodega" machines are more likely to show up in the offices of Teen Vogue than in a community where lower-income or working-class minorities walk to their corner stores.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Paingod »

I can't see a vending machine putting any corner store out of business. To my knowledge, every single vending overhaul and gimmick has been met with staggering indifference by the public.

This whole "issue" has me confused and wondering what I'm missing.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by El Guapo »

Moliere wrote:Shove Your Manufactured 'Bodega' Vending Machine Outrage
It's the story, not the company, that pushes the idea that this vending machine is a threat to mom-and-pop shops. The founders merely present their tool as a convenience for places like offices, gyms, and dorms.

It's true that if such a machine is placed in an apartment building, it could occasionally save somebody a trip to the nearby store. But even if these little pantries are extremely responsive in adjusting to the residents' needs, there is absolutely no way they're going to replace a bodega in most communities. It's simply not possible.

But few actually took the time question the assumption presented by Fast Company and instead decided to be angry on Twitter, accusing the Bodega bros of facilitating gentrification and cultural appropriation and trying to destroy small businesses. And that allowed other media sites—like Teen Vogue here—to piggyback with lazy "here are some angry tweets" journalism.

So let's state what should have been immediately obvious to anybody who stopped and looked at this thing for a moment: These "Bodega" machines are more likely to show up in the offices of Teen Vogue than in a community where lower-income or working-class minorities walk to their corner stores.
That makes sense. However, calling it 'Bodega' makes it sound like that's what you have in mind - modern / replacement Bodegas.

Which makes it a bad business name.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Moliere »

El Guapo wrote:Which makes it a bad business name.
Except for all the free publicity it has generated.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by El Guapo »

Moliere wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Which makes it a bad business name.
Except for all the free publicity it has generated.
Fair enough. But that also means that they have to reap the predictable outrage as a cost of the publicity.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by stessier »

El Guapo wrote:
Moliere wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Which makes it a bad business name.
Except for all the free publicity it has generated.
Fair enough. But that also means that they have to reap the predictable outrage as a cost of the publicity.
This appears to be contrary to what the owners themselves have said:
CNBC wrote:"... Even though I looked at this name for several months pre-launch, why didn't I anticipate the ways it could be interpreted?" he wrote. "It didn't occur to me that some people would see the word and associate its use in this context with whitewashing or cultural appropriation."

...

"We did surveys in the Latin American community to understand if they felt the name was a misappropriation of that term or had negative connotations, and 97 percent said 'no,'" he tells the publication. "It's a simple name and I think it works."
He went on to say that either they surveyed the wrong people or asked the wrong questions.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Moliere »

stessier wrote:He went on to say that either they surveyed the wrong people or asked the wrong questions.
Sounds like they surveyed normal people who don't give a shit about these internet generated outrages.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by stessier »

Moliere wrote:
stessier wrote:He went on to say that either they surveyed the wrong people or asked the wrong questions.
Sounds like they surveyed normal people who don't give a shit about these internet generated outrages.
Very likely. The silent majority. :)
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by El Guapo »

stessier wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Moliere wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Which makes it a bad business name.
Except for all the free publicity it has generated.
Fair enough. But that also means that they have to reap the predictable outrage as a cost of the publicity.
This appears to be contrary to what the owners themselves have said:
CNBC wrote:"... Even though I looked at this name for several months pre-launch, why didn't I anticipate the ways it could be interpreted?" he wrote. "It didn't occur to me that some people would see the word and associate its use in this context with whitewashing or cultural appropriation."

...

"We did surveys in the Latin American community to understand if they felt the name was a misappropriation of that term or had negative connotations, and 97 percent said 'no,'" he tells the publication. "It's a simple name and I think it works."
He went on to say that either they surveyed the wrong people or asked the wrong questions.
(1) I don't think they anticipated the outrage;
(2) They (or at least, someone in their planning circle) should have anticipated at least *some* blowback given the name;
(3) The outrage does have the benefit of giving them free publicity, but it's free publicity that comes with a side of outrage.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Once they realize they can't trademark the name anyway, they're going to change it anyway. SyFy it to BowDayGuh.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Max Peck »

Isgrimnur wrote:Once they realize they can't trademark the name anyway, they're going to change it anyway. SyFy it to BowDayGuh.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

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Max Peck wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote:Once they realize they can't trademark the name anyway, they're going to change it anyway. SyFy it to BowDayGuh.
Is Brodega® available?
Dude! Trademark that shit.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Isgrimnur »

You might have to pay these guys off.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by GreenGoo »

Kurth wrote:
Also, there was this from the Daily Beast:
Silicon Valley has never met an existing product they won’t reinvent and claim; somewhere, a room full of 24-year-old dudes named Chase are probably drawing up plans for a potassium rich oblong yellow fruit you can open with an app. Bodega was no different.
See, when I read stuff like that I know I'm not being informed, I'm being told to be outraged, and while that can sometimes work, especially if I'm already outraged, I don't blame the subject matter, I blame the writer.

"Somewhere dudes named chase are stiealing other peoples' ideas". That's a totally normal and reasonable line when discussing the news in a non-partisan way.

The idea that Silicon Valley, home to some of the most innovative thinking and technology of the last 20 years, is simply taking credit for other peoples' ideas, is absurd. Is there an abundance of "jump to conclusions mat" apps? Of course. That's not silicon valley though.

Why are you reading this crap? More importantly, why are you giving it any weight?
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by RunningMn9 »

Kurth wrote:
Perhaps they didn’t understand how beloved the corner store is to vast swaths of the population.
If that is true, then what is the threat to this adored mom & pop corner stores? Just because someone has earned a living doing something doesn't entitle them to keep earning a living doing that thing, if someone finds a better way to deliver that thing.

Back when I was into aquarium stuff, I didn't go to Pet Smart, because 17-yr-old clerks didn't know jack squat about aquariums. I went to the local aquarium store, manned by the owner, who knew my tank setup and was always able to help me with my specific issues. Thus his business has continued to survive.

If someone was able to sell me a setup that required no interaction on my part however that was reliably self-sustaining, that would be the last time I walked into his store. That store owner isn't entitled to my business.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Max Peck »

The reactions that I've seen indicate that, for the most part, bodega-loving Bodega critics aren't so much offended by the idea that the vending machines really will put corner-stores out of business as they are by the impression that the company's stated goal is to put corner stores out of business. I haven't seen the company's pitch, so I don't know if that impression comes from what they actually said or from the spin that people have been reading.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Kraken »

It's kind of like if Amazon launched a new subsidiary called The Mom & Pop Shop. Unless they're actually selling moms and pops, it's insensitive at best, and threatening at worst, to all the small family-owned businesses that embrace the label.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Max Peck »

Kraken wrote:It's kind of like if Amazon launched a new subsidiary called The Mom & Pop Shop. Unless they're actually selling moms and pops, it's insensitive at best, and threatening at worst, to all the small family-owned businesses that embrace the label.
You're probably correct. Amazon did launch a narrowly-scoped convenience store disruptor this year. They simply called it "Instant Pickup" and nobody could be bothered to be bothered by it (except for Trump, maybe, but I'm pretty sure he just hates all things Amazon because Bezos owns the WaPo).
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Holman »

Kraken wrote:It's kind of like if Amazon launched a new subsidiary called The Mom & Pop Shop. Unless they're actually selling moms and pops, it's insensitive at best, and threatening at worst, to all the small family-owned businesses that embrace the label.
There's also the context of so many small-scale local operators having been utterly destroyed by WalMart and other major players in many (especially rural) areas of the country.

"Bodega" might or might not be viable, but by setting out to offer a high-tech centralized challenge to even smaller-scale local operators in urban areas, it has generated its own resistance.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by killbot737 »

I posted a month or two ago: WTF is a bodega?

I didn't know it was such a sensitive word. What should I be using now? B*? B****a?
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Rip »

Pretty sure we have settled on Brodega.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Holman »

killbot737 wrote:I posted a month or two ago: WTF is a bodega?

I didn't know it was such a sensitive word. What should I be using now? B*? B****a?
I don't think "bodega" is a sensitive word so much as "leveraging tech and investment to crush immigrant community businesses" is a sensitive application of The Logic Of Capitalism.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Kraken »

Everything wrong with Bodega, in 28 points. My favorite:
16. This all could have been avoided if this startup had been pitched as a CVS killer. Nobody cares about chain drugstores.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by GreenGoo »

Holman wrote:
killbot737 wrote:I posted a month or two ago: WTF is a bodega?

I didn't know it was such a sensitive word. What should I be using now? B*? B****a?
I don't think "bodega" is a sensitive word so much as "leveraging tech and investment to crush immigrant community businesses" is a sensitive application of The Logic Of Capitalism.
I've found your comments lately to be sane, well thought out and lacking in outrage.

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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by RunningMn9 »

Are we under some kind of obligation to protect immigrant community businesses? Or to put it differently, are we under some kind of obligation to protect any businesses?
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Holman »

RunningMn9 wrote:Are we under some kind of obligation to protect immigrant community businesses? Or to put it differently, are we under some kind of obligation to protect any businesses?
No. But debates over these issues can inform consumer choices. That's what they're for.

No one is saying "TechBrodegas should be outlawed!" They're saying "Hey this model sucks for communities. Don't support it."

Profit will win in the end, of course. Debates won't matter. Maybe not this thing, but something like it will destroy small-scale neighborhood business the way WalMart destroyed small-town Main Street.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Combustible Lemur »

RunningMn9 wrote:Are we under some kind of obligation to protect immigrant community businesses? Or to put it differently, are we under some kind of obligation to protect any businesses?
Not really bit when you say it publicly and coldly you give people like Mangerine, and Sanders fuel to rile shit up, regardless of the feasibility of their argument.

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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Kraken »

Holman wrote:
RunningMn9 wrote:Are we under some kind of obligation to protect immigrant community businesses? Or to put it differently, are we under some kind of obligation to protect any businesses?
No. But debates over these issues can inform consumer choices. That's what they're for.

No one is saying "TechBrodegas should be outlawed!" They're saying "Hey this model sucks for communities. Don't support it."

Profit will win in the end, of course. Debates won't matter. Maybe not this thing, but something like it will destroy small-scale neighborhood business the way WalMart destroyed small-town Main Street.
The model for Bodega seems dubious to me. Their micro-specialized approach implies carrying and distributing a million items, most of them low-priced and low markup, scattered among locations far and wide, and none of them selling huge quantities. If they go for high-value, high-appeal products instead they're going to have a big smash-and-grab problem. Each vending machine will have a unique and ever-changing inventory list? I don't see how they can service them profitably.

Maybe they've worked that all out. I wouldn't bet my money on that, but I'm not exactly a visionary.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Kurth »

Holman wrote:
RunningMn9 wrote:Are we under some kind of obligation to protect immigrant community businesses? Or to put it differently, are we under some kind of obligation to protect any businesses?
No. But debates over these issues can inform consumer choices. That's what they're for.

No one is saying "TechBrodegas should be outlawed!" They're saying "Hey this model sucks for communities. Don't support it."

Profit will win in the end, of course. Debates won't matter. Maybe not this thing, but something like it will destroy small-scale neighborhood business the way WalMart destroyed small-town Main Street.
Yep. Let the market decide. For many of the reasons in that "Everything Wrong with B[r]odega" article Kraken posted above, on the whole, I think this is a pretty dumb idea and one that is destined to fail. But it should fail on its merits or lack thereof, not because of some dumb outrage about cultural appropriation or homeless cats.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Max Peck »

Awesomely horrible PR missteps are as good a reason for a business to fail as any other.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Defiant »

I don't think this should fail because they're disrupting local businesses or because of "cultural appropriation" but because it's a dumb idea. Vending machines have been around for, what, a century? I just don't see this revolutionizing anything, and I don't see the justification to have vending machines always available within 100 feet. Now, when we finally have replicators...

Anyway, I tend to roll my eyes to complaints of cultural appropriation. Unless it's being done to mock or being disrespectful (say using a cross or some other holy symbol in some tasteless usage), I think exchanging ideas and culture is a good thing, plus it expands your borders and gives you Culture Points.
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Max Peck
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Max Peck »

Defiant wrote:I don't think this should fail because they're disrupting local businesses or because of "cultural appropriation" but because it's a dumb idea. Vending machines have been around for, what, a century? I just don't see this revolutionizing anything, and I don't see the justification to have vending machines always available within 100 feet. Now, when we finally have replicators...

Anyway, I tend to roll my eyes to complaints of cultural appropriation. Unless it's being done to mock or being disrespectful (say using a cross or some other holy symbol in some tasteless usage), I think exchanging ideas and culture is a good thing, plus it expands your borders and gives you Culture Points.
I've seen more discussion about "cultural appropriation" in this thread than in the sum total of all the articles I've read about the company's backlash. Most of the criticism I've seen has been about the company pitching itself as a disruptor to a segment of the economy that the critics don't want to see disrupted. They care about things such as the role of the neighborhood convenience store in the social fabric of urban communities, or as a way to purchase perishables that can't be stocked in a glorified vending machine. And (in NYC, at least) they care a lot about their fresh egg sammiches. The mere fact that "bodega" is an ethnic word is largely tangential to the issue.

One aspect of the scheme that I'd be interested in seeing analyzed is the privacy implication. As I vaguely understand it, the actual public-facing hardware must be studded with a variety of sensors in order to keep track of who is purchasing (or stealing) whatever products are on offer. I'd be more concerned about never being more than 100 feet from a cluster of spy sensors that are harvesting my data than I would be about walking further than that to buy a snack. If I were an ex-Googler running something like Bodega, there's no way I wouldn't be looking to monetize all that free data.
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Defiant
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Defiant »

Max Peck wrote: I'd be more concerned about never being more than 100 feet from a cluster of spy sensors that are harvesting my data than I would be about walking further than that to buy a snack.
Then this may be of use.
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Max Peck »

Defiant wrote:
Max Peck wrote: I'd be more concerned about never being more than 100 feet from a cluster of spy sensors that are harvesting my data than I would be about walking further than that to buy a snack.
Then this may be of use.
I'd have to buy a smartphone before I could destroy it. Can I borrow yours? :coffee:
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

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Kurth wrote:But it should fail on its merits or lack thereof, not because of some dumb outrage about cultural appropriation or homeless cats.
Why should it be protected from dumb outrage? Isn't that a market force?

Just as importantly, how do you protect it from dumb outrage? If the highest office in the land isn't safe from dumb outrage, why some stupid start-up?
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Re: Bodega - Cultural Appropriation?

Post by Defiant »

Max Peck wrote:
Defiant wrote:
Max Peck wrote: I'd be more concerned about never being more than 100 feet from a cluster of spy sensors that are harvesting my data than I would be about walking further than that to buy a snack.
Then this may be of use.
I'd have to buy a smartphone before I could destroy it. Can I borrow yours? :coffee:
I can lend you a tablet (but if you break it, you bought it), but it won't do any good - regardless of what happens with this vending scheme, the foundations are already headed to what you worry about, it's only a matter of time. Your local pharmacy and supermarket are already harvesting your data and sending it to companies like Facebook.
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