Catalan Independence?

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82094
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Catalan Independence?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Moving on from piggybacking the Scottish Independence thread.

BBC
Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says the Spanish region has won the right to statehood following a contentious referendum that was marred by violence.

He said the door had been opened to a unilateral declaration of independence.

Catalan officials later said 90% of those who voted backed independence in Sunday's vote. The turnout was 42.3%.

Spain's constitutional court had declared the poll illegal and hundreds of people were injured as police used force to try to block voting.

Officers seized ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.
...
In another development, more than 40 trade unions and Catalan associations called a region-wide strike on Tuesday due to "the grave violation of rights and freedoms".

Earlier, as voting ended, Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said Catalans had been fooled into taking part in an illegal vote. He called it a "mockery" of democracy.

"At this hour I can tell you in the strongest terms what you already know and what we have seen throughout this day. There has not been a referendum on self-determination in Catalonia," he said.

Large crowds of independence supporters gathered in the centre of the regional capital Barcelona on Sunday evening, waving flags and singing the Catalan anthem. Anti-independence protesters have also held rallies in Barcelona and other Spanish cities.
...
TV footage showed riot police using batons to beat a group of firefighters who were protecting crowds in Girona.
...
Catalan authorities said 319 of about 2,300 polling stations across the region had been closed by police while the Spanish government said 92 stations had been closed.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
tgb
Posts: 30690
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:33 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by tgb »

Gamer embarrassment: I keep mis-reading the thread title as Cataan Independence.
I spent 90% of the money I made on women, booze, and drugs. The other 10% I just pissed away.
User avatar
Moliere
Posts: 12297
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
Location: Walking through a desert land

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Moliere »

Catalan independence referendum: Region votes overwhelmingly for secession from Spain
Meanwhile Catalan government figures say the total number of people requiring hospital treatment following violent clashes with police has now risen to 844.
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
User avatar
Daveman
Posts: 1757
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:06 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Daveman »

tgb wrote:Gamer embarrassment: I keep mis-reading the thread title as Cataan Independence.
Same here. I made a comment to my wife about how they should "trade wood for sheep" but she didn't get it.
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 13682
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Max Peck »

Catalan referendum: Region's independence 'in matter of days'
Catalonia will declare independence from Spain in a matter of days, the leader of the autonomous region has told the BBC.

In his first interview since Sunday's referendum, Carles Puigdemont said his government would "act at the end of this week or the beginning of next".

Meanwhile, Spain's King Felipe VI said organisers of the vote put themselves "outside the law".

He said the situation in Spain was "extremely serious", calling for unity.

Hundreds of thousands of people across Catalonia have been protesting over Spanish police violence during the vote, during which nearly 900 people were hurt.

During the vote, 33 police officers were also injured, local medical officials said.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
Vorret
Posts: 9613
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Drummondville, QC

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Vorret »

I'm ashamed that nobody from Canada said anything about the treatment received by voters and protesters over there.

Ashamed.
Isgrimnur wrote:
His name makes me think of a small, burrowing rodent anyway.
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 13682
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Max Peck »

Vorret wrote:I'm ashamed that nobody from Canada said anything about the treatment received by voters and protesters over there.

Ashamed.
Canada condemns violence in Catalonia
Canada's International Trade Minister François-Philippe Champagne condemned violence in the northeastern Spanish region of Catalonia and called on all sides in Spain to begin dialogue, after the disputed independence referendum there descended into chaos.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
Vorret
Posts: 9613
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Drummondville, QC

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Vorret »

Max Peck wrote:
Vorret wrote:I'm ashamed that nobody from Canada said anything about the treatment received by voters and protesters over there.

Ashamed.
Canada condemns violence in Catalonia
Canada's International Trade Minister François-Philippe Champagne condemned violence in the northeastern Spanish region of Catalonia and called on all sides in Spain to begin dialogue, after the disputed independence referendum there descended into chaos.
Sorry, I should have said Trudeau.
Isgrimnur wrote:
His name makes me think of a small, burrowing rodent anyway.
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by GreenGoo »

Vorret wrote:
Sorry, I should have said Trudeau.

I assumed you meant Max specifically.
User avatar
Sepiche
Posts: 8112
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:00 pm
Location: Olathe, KS

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Sepiche »

This article is from a bit back, but with the events lately in Spain it's worth keeping in mind:
What’s Behind Russian Support for World’s Separatist Movements?
Northern Irish, Scottish, Basque, Catalan and Italian secessionists have been invited to Moscow for a conference, partly funded by Russia, planned for August. They will mingle with Texan, Californian, Puerto-Rican and Hawaiian wannabe-separatists from all over the world, the conference organizer says.
...
Western leaders and Russia experts say the Kremlin backs fringe, ultra-nationalist and separatist parties to destabilize groupings such as NATO and the EU and to thwart U.S. missile defense installations that Moscow sees as a threat to its security.

They also say Moscow uses these movements to promote its political agenda, gain more political leverage within the EU and push for the lifting of Western sanctions imposed on Moscow after its 2014 annexation of Crimea.
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 13682
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Max Peck »

Vorret wrote:
Max Peck wrote:
Vorret wrote:I'm ashamed that nobody from Canada said anything about the treatment received by voters and protesters over there.

Ashamed.
Canada condemns violence in Catalonia
Canada's International Trade Minister François-Philippe Champagne condemned violence in the northeastern Spanish region of Catalonia and called on all sides in Spain to begin dialogue, after the disputed independence referendum there descended into chaos.
Sorry, I should have said Trudeau.
I wonder why that is...

Catalonia's right to vote for independence hits close to home for separatist Quebecers
Quebec's sovereignist leaders are decrying Premier Philippe Couillard and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's refusal to condemn the Spanish government's tough tactics in Catalonia ahead of an independence vote Oct. 1.

Tensions have escalated as Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has ramped up measures to try and prevent the referendum from happening.

Parti Québécois leader Jean-François Lisée spoke to a crowd of about 300 people at a demonstration in downtown Montreal Saturday where he compared the events unfolding in Catalonia to Quebec's October Crisis.

"The brute force that has been used to arrest people, to accuse them of sedition, to make raids … it's akin to the War Measures Act here in 1970," Lisée said in reference to the act put in place by former prime minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau in late 1970 in an attempt to restore order in the province.

For years, Catalans and Quebecers have expressed solidarity for their respective separatist movements.
Of course, the War Measures Act was in response to an outbreak of domestic terrorism, but I can see why the PQ might not want to talk about the FLQ.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82094
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Isgrimnur »

BBC
The Catalan regional parliament has voted to declare independence from Spain, while the Spanish parliament has approved direct rule over the region.

Catalan MPs easily approved the move amid an opposition boycott.

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy had told senators direct rule was needed to return "law, democracy and stability" to Catalonia.
...
A motion declaring independence was approved on Friday with 70 in favour, 10 against, and two abstentions in the 135-seat chamber.

The measure calls for the transfer of legal powers from Spain to an independent Catalonia.

But the Spanish Constitutional Court is likely to declare it illegal, while the US, UK, Germany and France all expressed support for Spanish unity.

European Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker said the EU "doesn't need any more cracks, more splits".

Catalan President Carles Puigdemont has called for supporters to "maintain the momentum" in a peaceful manner.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82094
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Fire them all
Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy wielded emergency powers granted by the Spanish Senate at once on Friday, dismissing the Catalan government and dissolving its parliament, as he sought to restore control of the rebel region.

In a televised statement, Rajoy called regional elections for Dec. 21 in a bid to draw a line under weeks of upheaval in the country’s biggest regional economy that saw hundreds of businesses shift their domicile to other parts of Spain to escape the turmoil. He also fired a police chief from the regional force, shut down most of the Catalan government’s diplomatic service and eliminated the offices of president and vice president. Rajoy created a special department in Madrid to oversee the measures.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
em2nought
Posts: 5309
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:48 am

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by em2nought »

I guess since Abraham Lincoln has been exposed to have been a slave owning racist https://www.onenewsnow.com/education/20 ... ned-slaves there surely won't be a brigade named in his honor this time? :wink:
Technically, he shouldn't be here.
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by GreenGoo »

em2nought wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:41 pm I guess since Abraham Lincoln has been exposed to have been a slave owning racist https://www.onenewsnow.com/education/20 ... ned-slaves there surely won't be a brigade named in his honor this time? :wink:
I'll believe it when the President tells us that Lincoln was "good people". Until then, you'll have to accept that your education system ain't what it used to be. Put some money into it. Couldn't hurt.

In any case, this has been covered elsewhere. Presumably in moliere's "this generation sucks" thread.
User avatar
Moliere
Posts: 12297
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
Location: Walking through a desert land

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Moliere »

GreenGoo wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:55 pm Presumably in moliere's "this generation sucks" thread.
I have a "this generation sucks" thread.? :think:
Seattle sucks. Check.
ISIS sucks. Check.
Islam sucks. Check.
College safe spaces suck. Check.

The last one is mostly Millennials. Is that it?
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by GreenGoo »

Moliere wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:06 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:55 pm Presumably in moliere's "this generation sucks" thread.
College safe spaces suck. Check.

The last one is mostly Millennials. Is that it?
Yes, that's it. On the plus side, I remembered who the original author of the thread was. Yay?
User avatar
Grifman
Posts: 21196
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Grifman »

So what happens if secessionists win the new elections,as I think if entirely possible, if not probable? I don't see the end game here.

That said, from everything I've read, the Catalan public is very split, probably around 50/50 give or take some percentage points either way. I just don't think secession is viable unless you have a super majority wanting it.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
User avatar
tjg_marantz
Posts: 14688
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:54 pm
Location: Queen City, SK

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by tjg_marantz »

I'm so conflicted. As a Quebecer, I don't want to see Quebec leave Canada. I don't want to see Catalonia separate and I understand their argument.

And yet, I have no problem with Scotland going their own way. Brexit is playing into it but even before then I supported it.

I have no clue why my gut says these things. Maybe bad vindaloo?
Home of the Akimbo AWPs
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Kraken »

Grifman wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:58 am So what happens if secessionists win the new elections,as I think if entirely possible, if not probable? I don't see the end game here.

That said, from everything I've read, the Catalan public is very split, probably around 50/50 give or take some percentage points either way. I just don't think secession is viable unless you have a super majority wanting it.
Did the American colonists have a clear majority for independence? I was under the impression that the common folk were mostly loyal. I would have been a loyalist, and I still think the revolution was a mistake. We could've been South Canada.
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28907
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Holman »

When you count slaves as people, only a minority of Southerners supported secession in 1860.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
Grifman
Posts: 21196
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Grifman »

Kraken wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:21 am Did the American colonists have a clear majority for independence? I was under the impression that the common folk were mostly loyal. I would have been a loyalist, and I still think the revolution was a mistake. We could've been South Canada.
If the common folk were mostly loyal, then who made up Wasthington's army? Who made up the Minutemen and local militias?

That said, the current historical thinking is about 15% to 20% of Americans were loyalists. So, no, most people were not loyalists,
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
User avatar
Grifman
Posts: 21196
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Grifman »

Holman wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:40 am When you count slaves as people, only a minority of Southerners supported secession in 1860.
Evidence?
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by GreenGoo »

Here's the data. I'm not adding it up for anyone.

1860 census
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Kraken »

Grifman wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:47 pm
Kraken wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:21 am Did the American colonists have a clear majority for independence? I was under the impression that the common folk were mostly loyal. I would have been a loyalist, and I still think the revolution was a mistake. We could've been South Canada.
If the common folk were mostly loyal, then who made up Wasthington's army? Who made up the Minutemen and local militias?

That said, the current historical thinking is about 15% to 20% of Americans were loyalists. So, no, most people were not loyalists,
Random googling turned up "Today our best estimates are Patriots 40-55% Loyalists 15-25% uncommitted 30-45%." Various sources have different numbers, but they're generally in the same ballpark. Contrary to what today's gun nuts say, around 10% of all colonists took up arms at one time or another, and the percentage is even higher if you only consider the population of eligible white males.

Anyway, a plurality were probably patriots, with uncommitted running a close second, and a substantial portion of those patriots took up arms. But it's not clear that a majority of the colonists favored independence. What's interesting to me is that nobody knows for sure.
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28907
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Holman »

Grifman wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:47 pm
Holman wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:40 am When you count slaves as people, only a minority of Southerners supported secession in 1860.
Evidence?
Slaves were about 47% of the Southern population in 1860.

One assumes that not many of them were ardent supporters of secession. Since it's known that there was also a minority of white Southerners we didn't support it, it's likely that only a minority was in favor of leaving the Union. (Of course that minority held all of the political power.)
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
Grifman
Posts: 21196
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Grifman »

Holman wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:24 pm

Slaves were about 47% of the Southern population in 1860.

One assumes that not many of them were ardent supporters of secession. Since it's known that there was also a minority of white Southerners we didn't support it, it's likely that only a minority was in favor of leaving the Union. (Of course that minority held all of the political power.)
That percent is way too high. Everything I've read says that slaves were about 1/3 of the population of the South. The percent you gave is the percentage of slaves in the Lower South, not the entire Confederacy. As for the rest, you're just guessing and have no real way of knowing.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82094
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Isgrimnur »

WaPo
Twelve Catalan separatists went on trial Tuesday in the Spanish capital for staging a failed 2017 independence referendum that triggered a constitutional crisis and exposed rifts in a nation’s identity.

The trial is unprecedented in the history of modern Spain. Carlos Lesmes, the president of Spain’s Supreme Court, characterized it as the “most important” case since the country returned to democracy in 1975.

It will be a test for the impartiality of Spain’s judiciary. And as it plays out on live television and saturates news headlines, reviving debates about democratic rights and political control, it will be a test of whether Spain’s governing minority coalition can hold together.
...
The 12 separatists — including Catalonia’s former vice president and other regional officials — stand accused of rebellion, sedition and the misuse of public funds. If convicted, they could face up to 25 years in prison. They deny the charges.
...
Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont is not on trial because he fled Spain in late October 2017 and has avoided extradition requests. But he continued to fan the flames from Berlin on Tuesday, in a news conference designed to coincide with the start of the trial.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41247
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by El Guapo »

That seems both wrong and a bad idea for Spain. Isn't this the best way to generate sympathy for the Catalan independence movement, particularly within Catalonia?
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
AWS260
Posts: 12665
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:51 pm
Location: Brooklyn

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by AWS260 »

Well, this part certainly doesn't help:
The Economist wrote:The Catalan independence bid has unleashed a conservative reaction in the rest of Spain. In a regional election in Andalucia in December, Vox, a previously insignificant far-right party, won 11% of the vote. Vox is using a quirk in Spain’s legal system to join the state’s case against the separatists as a private party, which will allow it to cross-examine the defendants. This is a propaganda gift for the separatists, who claim, unfairly, that Spain’s judiciary is a holdover from Franco’s dictatorship.
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82094
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Catalan Independence?

Post by Isgrimnur »

NPR
Police and protesters were expected to face off for a second time Tuesday in Spain's northeastern Catalonia region, a day after the Supreme Court found nine separatist leaders guilty of sedition and sentenced them to up to 13 years.

The protests erupted Monday when most of the Catalan politicians and activists on trial were found guilty and barred from holding public office. Three others were fined and four of those who received lengthy sentences were also convicted on charges of misuse of funds. The high court barred all of them from holding public office.

Railroads were blocked by pro-independence protesters who threw trash on the tracks and then set it on fire. Demonstrations also swarmed major roads, bringing traffic to a standstill.
...
Student Claudia Cusi was at the airport on Monday, where thousands clashed with police who held them back with batons and rubber bullets.
...
The region's current president, Quim Torra, was elected in May 2018 with Madrid's blessing. Speaking at a news conference after Monday's verdicts, he said his government rejected the sentences and asked Madrid for dialogue.

"Holding a referendum is not a crime. It is not even considered a crime in the criminal code," Torra said.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
Post Reply