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Shootings

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Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:48 am

Yesterday in Texas
A 16-year-old boy accused of shooting a classmate at a Texas high school on Monday had a history of aggressive actions at school, a fellow student said.

The injured student, a 15-year-old girl, was airlifted to a hospital in Dallas following the shooting inside the cafeteria at Italy High School, which is in the small town of Italy about 40 miles (64 kilometers) south of Dallas. The boy fled after being confronted by a school district official but was later arrested.

Cassie Shook, a 17-year-old junior at the school, told The Associated Press that she was driving up to the building when she saw "the doors fly open and everyone screaming and running out of the building." She said she was angry when she learned who the suspect was because she'd complained about the boy at least twice to school officials, including to a vice principal.
...
Shook said she first went to school officials after the boy allegedly made a "hit list" in eighth grade and her name was on it. Then last year, the boy got angry during a class and threw a pair of scissors at her friend and later threw a computer against a wall, she said.
...
Shook said police came to talk to the class after the incident. She said the boy was removed from the school but eventually was allowed back.
..
Ellis County Sheriff Chuck Edge said during a news conference that the suspect "engaged the victim" and fired several shots from a semi-automatic .380 handgun just before 8 a.m. Edge did not say how many times the victim was shot.

Investigators have said they don't know the relationship between the victim and shooter, or what may have been the shooter's motive.

Edge said the suspect fled when confronted by a school district official but was later arrested by law enforcement on school grounds. Edge said the handgun was recovered at the scene and is in evidence.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:49 am

Today in Kentucky
At least one person was killed in a shooting Tuesday at a Benton, Kentucky school, according to Gov. Matt Bevin.
...
The shooter is in custody, according to Bevin. Kentucky State Police said the scene was secured as of 10:11 a.m.

There are multiple victims, though only one confirmed fatality, according to the KSP.

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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:02 pm

Should this be "School Shootings?" If it's for all shootings it may get a bit hard to keep track of.

The one in Texas sounds like the school had plenty of warnings.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Captain Caveman » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:04 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:49 am
Today in Kentucky
There are multiple victims, though only one confirmed fatality, according to the KSP.
Yay?

It's depressing how this is worded. We've become so accustomed to mass shootings that it's seen as a small victory when only one person dies.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:07 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:02 pm
Should this be "School Shootings?" If it's for all shootings it may get a bit hard to keep track of.

The one in Texas sounds like the school had plenty of warnings.
Will review as things progress. We could just exclude Chicago to its own thread.

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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:35 pm

We could just exclude Chicago to its own thread.
Or weekly summary. 31 shootings over the weekend, 6 fatalities.




Not Chicago:
The audio is clear: One of the teens tells the guard he’s not armed, saying of his weapon, “It’s fake! It’s fake!”

“Oh, well,” says the guard. “Mine is real.” He then shoots the robbers.

Gardena police say both of the teens survived the shooting and the guard faces no charges.

SC:
EASLEY, S.C. —
Two people were injured after a shooting in Easley on Monday night, Easley police said.
...
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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:38 pm

London Ohio:
LONDON, Ohio (WSYX/WTTE) — Two people are dead after a late night shooting in Madison County Monday.

The shooting happened on Lamplight Court around 11:30 p.m. London Police said they were dispatched on reports of shots fired at an apartment complex.

Police said they found two men suffering from apparent gunshot wounds outside a Lamplight Court apartment. Police then located another man suffering from an apparent gunshot wound. A fourth man suspected of being involved was reportedly treated at Springfield hospital with gunshot wounds.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Carpet_pissr » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:40 pm

Possible to change the thread title to "Killings"?

The way it's worded currently makes it seem like guns are some kind of problem, and we all know that dynamite, cars, falling pianos and even common, blunt objects (!) can be used by a motivated criminal to kill someone. Really seems like you are unfairly singling out "guns" (really, I prefer to call them "dangerous tools").

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Re: Shootings

Post by Jaymann » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:32 pm

If you include all shootings it would have to include Cheney, movie sets, and people drinking shots at bars.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Blackhawk » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:41 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:35 pm


Not Chicago:
The audio is clear: One of the teens tells the guard he’s not armed, saying of his weapon, “It’s fake! It’s fake!”

“Oh, well,” says the guard. “Mine is real.” He then shoots the robbers.

Gardena police say both of the teens survived the shooting and the guard faces no charges.
I'm all for pointing out gun issues, but that article is just plain dishonest in how it is reporting this. There are enough real examples out there that we don't need to make new ones up. As far as I'm concerned, that site is now on my 'unreliable' list.

If you watch the video, which I have now done a half a dozen times, it is pretty clear that they pulled a gun on the clerk, jumped over, had the clerked backed up against a wall with the gun drawn and pointed. The guard steps in, shoots one twice, shoots the other once just as someone says "It's fake!", and only then do they start clearly shouting 'fake! fake!', at which point the guard says the "mine's real" line - and doesn't fire a single additional shot.

You can't see from the footage what the second guy was doing when the guard shot him, so I can't say whether the last shot was justified, but you can see that there was absolutely zero reason for the guard to have believed that the gun that was in hand was fake when he shot them.
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Re: Shootings

Post by gbasden » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:44 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:40 pm
Possible to change the thread title to "Killings"?

The way it's worded currently makes it seem like guns are some kind of problem, and we all know that dynamite, cars, falling pianos and even common, blunt objects (!) can be used by a motivated criminal to kill someone. Really seems like you are unfairly singling out "guns" (really, I prefer to call them "dangerous tools").
That's always a slightly disingenuous argument, though. Yes, there are near infinite things that can be used to cause bodily harm, but a gun is by far the most lethal and generally has more capacity to quickly kill a group of people. There's a reason why the murder rate tends to be lower in countries that restrict firearm access.

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Re: Shootings

Post by The Meal » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:42 pm



Aj22000 (@TheCaptainAidan)
My school is being shot up and I am locked inside. I’m fucking scared right now. (40 m)

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Re: Shootings

Post by Remus West » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:55 pm

The Meal wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:42 pm


Aj22000 (@TheCaptainAidan)
My school is being shot up and I am locked inside. I’m fucking scared right now. (40 m)
Is this the Florida one or is there another going on too?
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Re: Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:39 pm

The tweet is from a student at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Florida.

CNN
The suspect in a deadly high school shooting in Parkland, Florida, is in custody, the Broward County Sheriff's Office said.

A shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Broward caused "numerous" fatalities, Broward County Public Schools Superintendent Robert Runcie said. He did not know the exact number.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Moliere » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:49 pm



The President has issued his thoughts and prayers tweet. Time to move on people.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Skinypupy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:01 pm

The Meal wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:42 pm


Aj22000 (@TheCaptainAidan)
My school is being shot up and I am locked inside. I’m fucking scared right now. (40 m)
Jesus, don't read that thread. Reporters were literally asking him for permission to use his photos...during the shooting. The poor kid tweets that he's scared for his life, and their first response is "hey, can we use this pic?"

Sometimes this entire country makes me want to vomit.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Xmann » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:04 pm

fucking A man.

I still have some PTSD from my son being in a locked down school and I can't read about this shit anymore.

those poor kids and parents. I want to puke just thinking about it.

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Re: Shootings

Post by YellowKing » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:19 pm

I'll go ahead and preemptively say, everyone can take their "thoughts and prayers" and shove them up their ass.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:22 pm

At least 17 people were killed Wednesday in a high school shooting in Parkland, Florida, Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel said.

The suspect, 19-year-old former student ... is in custody, the sheriff said. The sheriff said he was expelled for unspecified disciplinary reasons. Police are investigating his digital profile, he said. So far, what they've found is "very, very disturbing," Israel said.
...
Twelve were killed inside the building and two died outside, he said. One died in the street and two died at the hospital, the sheriff said.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Jag » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:41 pm

This is our school district, right up the road. My kids don't go there, but we have friends of friends that do. My son's friends were on the way there for an event today. My wife's facebook is blowing up with people posting pictures of their kids and asking if they have been seen. We are all just numb with shock.

Anyone that supports a politician taking money from the NRA is complicit. Blood is on their hands. They all need to be voted out of office. Our kids are being murdered and all they offer are thoughts and prayers. I used to consider myself conservative, but lines have been drawn. The only thing we can do to keep our children safe is get these people out of office and push for change.

This is the only western country in the world where our kids are gunned down in school. It makes no sense. Why can't we be better than this?

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Re: Shootings

Post by Pyperkub » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:20 pm

18th School Shooting in the USA since the beginning of 2018.

More than one every other day.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Chaz » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:26 pm

After his thoughts and prayers tweet, Trump immediately pivoted to law enforcement.

Remember, for a small part of the country, this and all the other school shootings this year, and the ones we'll have next week, and the week after, and the week after, are all an acceptable price to pay so that they can have free access to almost any type and quantity of firearm they want with no questions asked. This minority is holding the rest of the country hostage in service of this belief. The GOP is helping them do this.

Vote in November.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:42 pm

Chaz wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:26 pm
Vote in November.
For everyone but Texas, vote this summer. We get an early jump in March.

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Re: Shootings

Post by msteelers » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:28 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Chaz wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:26 pm
Vote in November.
For everyone but Texas, vote this summer. We get an early jump in March.
Add registered independents in Florida to the group with the Texas voters. We can’t vote in the primaries, even though for many races they determine the outcome and don’t even have a general election.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Default » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:49 am

Any chance you can register as another party for the primaries and then revert to being independent after the primary?
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Re: Shootings

Post by msteelers » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:41 am

Default wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:49 am
Any chance you can register as another party for the primaries and then revert to being independent after the primary?
Yes and no. For one thing, I don't think I should be effectively forced to join a political party just to vote. But Florida's system is so broken it goes way beyond just closed primaries. Florida has a rule that if only one party is running candidates, then that primary is open to the general public. But Florida also considers write-in candidates to be enough to close a primary, even though they never appear on the ballot. Both Democrats and Republicans are notorious for finding a write-in candidate to close any primary that might otherwise be open.
Sun Sentinel wrote:Twenty years ago, however, the revision commission had a good partial solution and voters agreed. They amended the Constitution to open any primary that would elect the winner for lack of a rival on the November ballot.

However, the Department of State and the courts held that a write-in candidate counts as opposition, even though their name doesn’t appear on the ballot, they never win and they serve no purpose except to close a primary. Now, write-in candidates are commonly used to keep roughly two-thirds of voters from voting in a race. (About 37 percent of Florida voters are Democrats, 35 percent are Republican and 27 percent are unaffiliated, the fastest growing constituency.)
So even if I register as a Republican or a Democrat, I'm going to be locked out of voting for some races.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Chrisoc13 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:49 am

I'm so sick and tired of the mental gymnastics gun lovers do to excuse their hobby and obsession. I'm so sick and tired of it all. Kids get killed and thoughts and prayers are sent. I'm ready to completely be done with guns at this point and I used to be on the other side. I can't support gun ownership anymore though because of the terrible things that come with a society obsessed with guns and violence.

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Re: Shootings

Post by LordMortis » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:21 am

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/be ... mg00000063

I still support responsible gun ownership but the problem is one side refuses to have a discussion. For them it's all or all.

A friend noted to Moloch has become our God.

Perhaps this should be a thing, calling the NRA worshippers of Moloch with Congressional members of the GOP being their priests, sending out so many prayers for the families of the sacrificed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch

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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:38 am

Someone who goes into a school and murders dozens of kids isn't a "gun owner." He is a mass murderer. Conflating the two is exactly why gun owners get all defensive.

Do we have a problem with too many firearms? Yes. But we also have a problem with too many murderous pieces of shit.



A pro-gun person sees the a shooting like this and thinks, "If only there was someone there to take this guy out." An anti-gun person sees this and thinks, "If only there were no guns for this guy to use." And their call for action will probably reflect their initial thoughts. As more details come out, both perspectives may change but that's the initial reaction.


Extreme pro-gun people will think, "Oh, no, this may be a threat to my guns! Quick, write a check to the NRA!" Extreme anti-gun people will think, "Let's use this opportunity to finally ban [x]! Quick, make this incident all about guns!"

And with every shooting more and more people are driven to the extremes on both sides.
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Re: Shootings

Post by noxiousdog » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:45 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:38 am
Someone who goes into a school and murders dozens of kids isn't a "gun owner." He is a mass murderer. Conflating the two is exactly why gun owners get all defensive.

Do we have a problem with too many firearms? Yes. But we also have a problem with too many murderous pieces of shit.

A pro-gun person sees the a shooting like this and thinks, "If only there was someone there to take this guy out." An anti-gun person sees this and thinks, "If only there were no guns for this guy to use." And their call for action will probably reflect their initial thoughts. As more details come out, both perspectives may change but that's the initial reaction.


Extreme pro-gun people will think, "Oh, no, this may be a threat to my guns! Quick, write a check to the NRA!" Extreme anti-gun people will think, "Let's use this opportunity to finally ban [x]! Quick, make this incident all about guns!"

And with every shooting more and more people are driven to the extremes on both sides.
And both the media and politicians fuel the extremes. Great post.
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Shootings

Post by Chrisoc13 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:51 am

Less access to guns won't hurt. Acting like our gun culture isn't a huge part of the problem (including massive gun ownership) is just putting your head in the sand. Increased mental health resources and coverage is necessary. Decreasing our society's obsession with guns and violence is a necessity. But guns are a problem. It is far too efficient a tool of mass murder that "murderous pieces of shit" have way too much access to. Pretending they are not is getting a bit ridiculous.

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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:12 am

Chrisoc13 wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:51 am
Less access to guns won't hurt. Acting like our gun culture isn't a huge part of the problem (including massive gun ownership) is just putting your head in the sand. Increased mental health resources and coverage is necessary. Decreasing our society's obsession with guns and violence is a necessity. But guns are a problem. It is far too efficient a tool of mass murder that "murderous pieces of shit" have way too much access to. Pretending they are not is getting a bit ridiculous.
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:38 am
Do we have a problem with too many firearms? Yes.
The genie is out of the bottle. I'm not sure it is possible to suddenly make modern firearms less efficient at their intended purpose. Access is a problem, indeed. So what is the answer to the access problem?

The way I see it, we have to do two things. Limit access to firearms to those who shouldn't have them and identify those individuals who have the psychological/moral propensity to commit mass (or even single) murder. Both involve some serious intrusions into privacy, civil rights, and constitutional rights. If you're down with government review of medical records to find potential murderers, I'm down with government review of firearms collections and ammo purchases to find potential shooters. We need mandatory firearms training for gun owners and we need more mental health services and mandatory mental health evaluations.

There are two things required for every shooting. A gun and a person willing to pull the trigger. You take away either one and you don't have a shooting. Since we can never guarantee to be rid of either, it makes sense work on both of them.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Carpet_pissr » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:12 am

Chrisoc13 wrote:Less access to guns won't hurt. Acting like our gun culture isn't a huge part of the problem (including massive gun ownership) is just putting your head in the sand. Increased mental health resources and coverage is necessary. Decreasing our society's obsession with guns and violence is a necessity. But guns are a problem. It is far too efficient a tool of mass murder that "murderous pieces of shit" have way too much access to. Pretending they are not is getting a bit ridiculous.
+1

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Re: Shootings

Post by LordMortis » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:15 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:12 am
There are two things required for every shooting. A gun and a person willing to pull the trigger. You take away either one and you don't have a shooting. Since we can never guarantee to be rid of either, it makes sense work on both of them.

Make it so /picard

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Re: Shootings

Post by msteelers » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:19 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:38 am
Someone who goes into a school and murders dozens of kids isn't a "gun owner." He is a mass murderer. Conflating the two is exactly why gun owners get all defensive.
Except many of these mass murderers are gun owners. Some of them, like the Vegas shooter, are enthusiastic gun owners.
Do we have a problem with too many firearms? Yes. But we also have a problem with too many murderous pieces of shit.
True, and the issue is that we haven't been able to even begin to address how to keep murderous pieces of shit from legally owning guns.
A pro-gun person sees the a shooting like this and thinks, "If only there was someone there to take this guy out." An anti-gun person sees this and thinks, "If only there were no guns for this guy to use." And their call for action will probably reflect their initial thoughts. As more details come out, both perspectives may change but that's the initial reaction.


Extreme pro-gun people will think, "Oh, no, this may be a threat to my guns! Quick, write a check to the NRA!" Extreme anti-gun people will think, "Let's use this opportunity to finally ban [x]! Quick, make this incident all about guns!"

And with every shooting more and more people are driven to the extremes on both sides.
The problem is that extreme pro-gun people are far more effective at promoting their side than anyone else. They've pushed us to an area where there are far too many guns out on the streets, and any attempts at trying to reign them in is stopped before it ever gets started. The extreme anti-gun people haven't accomplished anything in this country in decades. We can't even ban bump stocks for god's sake.

Any doubts that the extremists have completely won the issue should have been squashed after Sandy Hook. In a sane reality that would have generated an over-reaction from the American public and legislators. Instead the extremists rallied the troops and prevented Congress from doing anything. All we got were some weak Executive Actions from Obama that Trump nearly completely dismantled within his first month of office.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Exodor » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:23 am

I find it difficult to believe that the US has a different media diet or rate of mental health issues and yet we have a dramatically higher rate of gun violence - not just these mass shootings but the daily incidents. According to the linked article our rate of gun violence is eight times higher than Canada's.

What makes the US different from every other western country other than easy access to guns that accounts for the higher rate of gun violence?

Until another reason can be found it seems the answer is right in front of us - our politicians are just too afraid of the gun lobby to do anything about it.

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noxiousdog
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Re: Shootings

Post by noxiousdog » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:46 am

Exodor wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:23 am
I find it difficult to believe that the US has a different media diet or rate of mental health issues and yet we have a dramatically higher rate of gun violence - not just these mass shootings but the daily incidents. According to the linked article our rate of gun violence is eight times higher than Canada's.

What makes the US different from every other western country other than easy access to guns that accounts for the higher rate of gun violence?

Until another reason can be found it seems the answer is right in front of us - our politicians are just too afraid of the gun lobby to do anything about it.
We have a dramatically higher rate of ALL violence.
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LawBeefaroni
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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:58 am

msteelers wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:19 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:38 am
Someone who goes into a school and murders dozens of kids isn't a "gun owner." He is a mass murderer. Conflating the two is exactly why gun owners get all defensive.
Except many of these mass murderers are gun owners. Some of them, like the Vegas shooter, are enthusiastic gun owners.
And that kind of approach, lumping gun owners in with murderers, isn't productive. In fact it's counterproductive. That's all I'm saying. Maximizing resistance when seeking change doesn't help you get that change.


If Critical Mass proposed that car ownership was a major factor in DUI deaths, they would immediately be up against all car owners, including the all the sober drivers. It's technically true but taking that position is going to make things more difficult. It looks like a way for Critical Mass to get the narrow edge of the wedge in there.

Likewise with gun owners. You need gun owners on board. They don't trust anti-gunners (for lack of a better term) and any attempt at regulation looks like the narrow end of the wedge to them. The NRA's scare tactics don't help, nor do all the pro-gun podcasts, bloggers, etc. It's all "give anti-gunners an inch and they'll take a mile, it's easier to keep rights when you're on the offensive, the status quo isn't good enough...." Believe me, I listen to many of them with great trepidation. Seeing otherwise reasonable, and good, people buy into this is sad. But everytime a politician calls for a nonsensical ban, or the media condemns 30-round "clips", you can practically see them driven into the arms of the extremists. Hell, Nancy Pelosi has done more for the pro-gun cause in the last few years than most of her colleagues across the aisle. She is certainly one of the top NRA fundraisers.

Saying that gun ownership is usually a pre-requisite for mass murder has the same effect. There's not going to be change without a significant number of gun owners supporting it. And we can either wait until enough kids get shot to finally move that needle (if that will even move it, and I prefer not to wait) or we can try to move it in other ways.
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YellowKing
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Re: Shootings

Post by YellowKing » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:05 pm

Lawbeefaroni wrote:A gun and a person willing to pull the trigger. You take away either one and you don't have a shooting. Since we can never guarantee to be rid of either, it makes sense work on both of them.
To work on the gun portion of that equation, you have to have the pro-gun party willing to work on it. And so far they've demonstrated that they're not willing to do so.

You can't solve a problem if one side completely refuses to come to the table, or do anything in any way - even the most minimum of efforts - to assist in solving the problem.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Fireball » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:08 pm

There is no justification whatsoever for any civilian to own these sorts of weapons.
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