Shootings

[El Guapo]

My hope in this is that arming teachers is such a farcically and clearly terrible idea, and Trump is such a terrible spokesman for it, that it will damage the anti-gun control crowd and weaken the NRA, because it will highlight in a really clear way how bankrupt their response is to school shootings. Like, their most prominent policy response is to *arm teachers*. Whatever the problems with various gun control proposals, they're clearly not as comically insane as that.

[hepcat]

There's just has to be a way the Mangerine can turn this around and blame Obama.

[Holman]

I'm imagining a video where every actor who ever played a teacher (good or bad, inspiring or incompetent) is shown having to play their role with a gun on their hip.

Ben Stein fucking excluded.

[Fitzy]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

[Smoove_B]

CBS News

The nation's largest privately-owned bank says it will stop producing credit cards for the National Rifle Association in response to customer feedback.

The Nebraska-based First National Bank of Omaha announced on Twitter Thursday that it will not renew its contract to issue the group's NRA Visa Card.

That's really weird. I was just reading an opinion piece on the role banks could play in this and couldn't believe it was the first I was hearing about it.

[Holman]

link

[Jag]

CBS News

The nation's largest privately-owned bank says it will stop producing credit cards for the National Rifle Association in response to customer feedback.

The Nebraska-based First National Bank of Omaha announced on Twitter Thursday that it will not renew its contract to issue the group's NRA Visa Card.

That's really weird. I was just reading an opinion piece on the role banks could play in this and couldn't believe it was the first I was hearing about it.

It's a start. The assault on the terror group called the NRA has started. Hit them at their sponsors and in the pocket book. They can be taken down. Their total disregard to even entertain reasonable regulation will be their downfall.

[milo]

I'm imagining a video where every actor who ever played a teacher (good or bad, inspiring or incompetent) is shown having to play their role with a gun on their hip.

Quarter to Three is on the case:

Stand And Deliver!


Blast Time at Ridgemont High

[Blackhawk]

My gut feeling is that the best we're going to get out of this is a couple of token gestures to placate the pitchfork-wielding mob. But even if that's all we get, I'll consider it a success considering who controls the government.

That's my impression. Bump stocks were a legal end-run around a law and were pretty much on their way out anyway. And a significant number of states already have gun restrictions under 21 years of age, an age that most of the pro-gun lobby is above. It sounds like he's taking two things that don't mean all that much to gun rights advocates and using them to be able to say, "We made a change!" in order to stop the movement from gaining too much momentum and bringing about real change.

He's making a blood sacrifice, chosen from the local hospice.

[malchior]

I wonder if the armed teachers will do as well as the armed sheriff's deputy who was seen taking cover behind a stairwell and ultimately resigned today.

[Grifman]

Unfortunately, I do not believe anything will ever be done about gun violence unless there is a massive, very massive change in American culture.

It's already here. Look at the polls. An overwhelming majority of Americans want tougher laws. Including gun enthusiasts. Across the political spectrum.

I think what you saw today, with thousands of kids marching, with upset parents staring congressmen in the face and telling them they're tired of this shit - that's what's finally going to make something happen.

We've never had this large a reaction to a mass shooting that I can recall, with people in multiple states marching in the streets.

That's not to say I believe gun violence is magically going to go away because of this incident and these marches. But today the needle moved. Just a tiny bit, but it moved. And that's a hell of a lot more than it's done for every mass shooting prior to this.

One day we may look back at Trump and thank him for being so reprehensible that people finally said enough is enough.

Again, I hate to be cynical and hopeless on this, but everything is just playing around the edges until you ban all semi-automatic rifles. "Assault" rifles look cool and deadly but there are plenty of semi-automatic rifles out there that don't look like assault rifles but can do the same thing. Just look at numbers 17-20 at this link:

https://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gall ... ng#page-21

Any of these 4 can do pretty much what an "assault" rifle can do, though magazine capacity may be less. And I do not believe short of a huge cultural shift (that there is no sign of), that we are prepared to ban semi-automatic rifles.

I'll believe it when actual laws are passed.

[msteelers]

I wonder if the armed teachers will do as well as the armed sheriff's deputy who was seen taking cover behind a stairwell and ultimately resigned today.

Yeah, that is a disturbing story. I watched the press conference with Sheriff Israel. The Deputy was suspended without pay, and he decided to retire instead. Israel called it a "resign/retire".

If a trained and experienced deputy freezes, can we really expect teachers to fare better? We'll find out. The FL legislature announced that they will take up gun legislation. They haven't unveiled specifics, but the leaders of the House and Senate both signaled arming teachers was something that needed to happen.

They better act quick. The legislative session ends in 2 weeks.

[Jag]

This is beyond horrifying. Seriously just read it and post below if you think guns like the AR-15 used in Parkland are still fun, recreational toy that should be easily available. I'd like to know who can still support these types of weapons without regulations. It will say so much about you.

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the victims of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, with extensive bleeding. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?

The reaction in the emergency room was the same. One of the trauma surgeons opened a young victim in the operating room, and found only shreds of the organ that had been hit by a bullet from an AR-15, a semi-automatic rifle which delivers a devastatingly lethal, high-velocity bullet to the victim. There was nothing left to repair, and utterly, devastatingly, nothing that could be done to fix the problem. The injury was fatal.

As a doctor, I feel I have a duty to inform the public of what I have learned as I have observed these wounds and cared for these patients. It’s clear to me that AR-15 or other high-velocity weapons, especially when outfitted with a high-capacity magazine, have no place in a civilian’s gun cabinet. I have friends who own AR-15 rifles; they enjoy shooting them at target practice for sport, and fervently defend their right to own them. But I cannot accept that their right to enjoy their hobby supersedes my right to send my own children to school, to a movie theater, or to a concert and to know that they are safe. Can the answer really be to subject our school children to active shooter drills—to learn to hide under desks, turn off the lights, lock the door and be silent—instead of addressing the root cause of the problem and passing legislation to take AR-15-style weapons out of the hands of civilians?

[msteelers]

Unfortunately, I do not believe anything will ever be done about gun violence unless there is a massive, very massive change in American culture.

It's already here. Look at the polls. An overwhelming majority of Americans want tougher laws. Including gun enthusiasts. Across the political spectrum.

I think what you saw today, with thousands of kids marching, with upset parents staring congressmen in the face and telling them they're tired of this shit - that's what's finally going to make something happen.

We've never had this large a reaction to a mass shooting that I can recall, with people in multiple states marching in the streets.

That's not to say I believe gun violence is magically going to go away because of this incident and these marches. But today the needle moved. Just a tiny bit, but it moved. And that's a hell of a lot more than it's done for every mass shooting prior to this.

One day we may look back at Trump and thank him for being so reprehensible that people finally said enough is enough.

Again, I hate to be cynical and hopeless on this, but everything is just playing around the edges until you ban all semi-automatic rifles. "Assault" rifles look cool and deadly but there are plenty of semi-automatic rifles out there that don't look like assault rifles but can do the same thing. Just look at numbers 17-20 at this link:

https://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gall ... ng#page-21

Any of these 4 can do pretty much what an "assault" rifle can do, though magazine capacity may be less. And I do not believe short of a huge cultural shift (that there is no sign of), that we are prepared to ban semi-automatic rifles.

I'll believe it when actual laws are passed.

It's important to not let perfect be the enemy of good. We know we can't get it exactly right, and that there is no realistic perfect solution. So we do what we can and move forward.

For the first time in a long time I have hope on this issue. There are a lot more people today than there was last week willing to ban all semi-auto rifles. And they are motivated. If it carries through the elections this year and in 2020, I think anything is possible.

[Enough]

Edit: Awh crap, I was behind on the thread. Sorry for the repeat news.

On the subject of armed school guards it's often said that contracted officers will not execute if the worst happens. It looks like in Parkland FL there was a paid armed security officer on campus who did not engage and now has voluntarily resigned.

Scot Peterson, the school resource deputy, was "absolutely" on campus through the event, armed and in uniform, Israel said Thursday. After seeing video and reviewing witness statements and Peterson's own statement, Israel said he decided to suspend Peterson without pay pending an internal investigation.Scot Peterson, the school resource deputy, was "absolutely" on campus through the event, armed and in uniform, Israel said Thursday. After seeing video and reviewing witness statements and Peterson's own statement, Israel said he decided to suspend Peterson without pay pending an internal investigation.

Peterson chose to resign, Israel said.

Israel said the video shows Peterson arriving at the west side of Building 12 and taking up a position, but he didn't go inside. Israel said Peterson "clearly" knew there was a shooter in the building and was outside for about four minutes. The shooting lasted about six minutes, Israel said.

When asked what the deputy should have done, Israel said, "Went in, addressed the killer, killed the killer."

The video isn't being disclosed, Israel said.

Israel said he was "devastated, sick to my stomach, there are no words."

[Punisher]

Unfortunately, I do not believe anything will ever be done about gun violence unless there is a massive, very massive change in American culture.

It's already here. Look at the polls. An overwhelming majority of Americans want tougher laws. Including gun enthusiasts. Across the political spectrum.

I think what you saw today, with thousands of kids marching, with upset parents staring congressmen in the face and telling them they're tired of this shit - that's what's finally going to make something happen.

We've never had this large a reaction to a mass shooting that I can recall, with people in multiple states marching in the streets.

That's not to say I believe gun violence is magically going to go away because of this incident and these marches. But today the needle moved. Just a tiny bit, but it moved. And that's a hell of a lot more than it's done for every mass shooting prior to this.

One day we may look back at Trump and thank him for being so reprehensible that people finally said enough is enough.

Again, I hate to be cynical and hopeless on this, but everything is just playing around the edges until you ban all semi-automatic rifles. "Assault" rifles look cool and deadly but there are plenty of semi-automatic rifles out there that don't look like assault rifles but can do the same thing. Just look at numbers 17-20 at this link:

https://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gall ... ng#page-21

Any of these 4 can do pretty much what an "assault" rifle can do, though magazine capacity may be less. And I do not believe short of a huge cultural shift (that there is no sign of), that we are prepared to ban semi-automatic rifles.

I'll believe it when actual laws are passed.

It's important to not let perfect be the enemy of good. We know we can't get it exactly right, and that there is no realistic perfect solution. So we do what we can and move forward.

For the first time in a long time I have hope on this issue. There are a lot more people today than there was last week willing to ban all semi-auto rifles. And they are motivated. If it carries through the elections this year and in 2020, I think anything is possible.

I think the problem with this is this: Let's say that we ban and magically get rid of all existing ones.. Then the next mass shooting uses one of the many different firearms that can do similar damage (a hand gun with hollow point bullets will tear a person up for example). Then you have all the people who were against the ban start pointing fingers and saying "see, we did it your way and it didn't work" then that can be used as push-back for any other ban proposals... I really don't think banning a particular kind of firearm is going t help anyone. I dont have the answer, but I dont think a ban is it..

[YellowKing]

That handgun's not going to kill as many people in as short a period of time. So the theoretical ban would have still potentially saved lives.

[Zaxxon]

That handgun's not going to kill as many people in as short a period of time. So the theoretical ban would have still potentially saved lives.

Indeed.

And it's interesting that Parkland serves as evidence against the armed teacher idea. This officer certainly had more training than teachers would under any plan. He froze / elected not to engage. Failure.

Which is not to say that I blame him. Certainly can't say I'd do better. But he was armed, he was trained, and he was in position to help. He did not help.

[GreenGoo]

That handgun's not going to kill as many people in as short a period of time. So the theoretical ban would have still potentially saved lives.

Whoever made the point about a fast person with a knife being able to do as much damage as an AR-15 so why bother nailed it.

You can't solve all gun problems with a single act. Suggesting that there will still be gun problems after making some changes is a given. It's guaranteed.

That is not an argument to do nothing.

[Punisher]

That handgun's not going to kill as many people in as short a period of time. So the theoretical ban would have still potentially saved lives.

I doubt that this is true. He wasn't firing a fully automatic rifle, it was semi auto, just like most handguns.
Here is a quote from this (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ns/553937/) article.

A year ago, when a gunman opened fire at the Fort Lauderdale airport with a 9mm semiautomatic handgun, hitting 11 people in 90 seconds,

Plus handguns are more easily concealed which means a shooter could carry more then one, shoot, then blend in with the crowd easier.

I can see the side of the pro-gun advocates seeing this as a slippery slope. Ban AR-15's..more shootings with different rifles, ban those, then more shootings with shotguns and handguns..ban those. For those people saying that they are or banning AR-15's, I can easily see them keep going to a total firearms ban, because if you are banning AR-15's to protect people, then why would you stop there.
This is why I think banning AR-15's would literally accomplish nothing.

As for the officer who did not engage and using him as an example as to why teachers shouldn't be armed, 1 person is not enough data. You cannot train for your reaction in a firefight. Even soldiers freeze up and they have way more training. You wont know how anyone will react to that situation until it happens.
They are also not taking about forcing anyone to carry, so those that dont want to just wont be taken into consideration.
For those worried about teachers having to get constant training and what not, once a police officer leaves the academy, they get very little additional firearms training (for the most part) Generally it consists of qualifications at a shooting range every 6 months to a year. If a new firearm is introduced to the department they will get a little training on it and then qualify. It's possible that large departments like the NYPD get additional training, but the majority do not get regular training.. Some departments have started running active shooter drills, but even then, it is about once a year at the most.

[Zaxxon]

None of what you said contradicts my post. This was a near-ideal setup from the standpoint of someone on site, armed as well as any teacher could be, trained as well as any teacher could be, who opted into the role.

That's all.

[Combustible Lemur]

My two cents as a teacher.


FUCK THAT SHIT. Rip is an idiot. I apologize for the personal attack but the shit he's putting on teachers is pretty fucking offensive.

It's asking for more death not less. There are plenty of honorable capable teachers who in their personal lives might make quality concealed carry users. Not in school.

Training might be great, but there is finite time. And for every conflict resolution, firing training, close quarters, safety, emergency, classroom management, team drills, and oversight testing hour take away an hour of actual teaching or educational training.

Nope.
Ignore everything else, what's the solution for high turnover. 50% of teacher don't make it passed five years. We're going to actively flood the country with a million new burned out semi-trained over confident shmucks with delusions of heroism?

And don't get me wrong, a not insignificant number of volunteers are going to be self interested shmucks with delusions of saving the world.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[tjg_marantz]

Please don't edit or delete your post.

[malchior]

Barring some other information coming out, I'm going to assume he misinterpreted the situation.

Although there was one moment where Rubio's mic was left on while going to commercial break, and it sounded like he was asking a student if he was an actor. So maybe it really was all one big scam.

Here is the student addressing this. The linked video leads me to believe more misunderstanding but mostly because he speaks in word salad. I couldn't quite figure out what he was saying. If I picked it out - he sent in an essay, they maybe revised format over a few intervening days, and went to a question format. They requested questions and he sent in questions. Perhaps they cleaned it up or maybe they didn't. Who knows. If he writes like he talks I could see them just editing it to make sense. He almost seemed to indicate they paraphrased something he said to a CNN reporter. Whatever the case this feels like manufactured noise to undermine substance with fake controversy. Fox's main weapon of choice.

Edit:
So this also happened re: this

[Kraken]

It's asking for more death not less.

More guns = more gun deaths. That is both intuitive and well-documented.

[Holman]

[...]

Nope.
Ignore everything else, what's the solution for high turnover. 50% of teacher don't make it passed five years. We're going to actively flood the country with a million new burned out semi-trained over confident shmucks with delusions of heroism?

And don't get me wrong, a not insignificant number of volunteers are going to be self interested shmucks with delusions of saving the world.

Yup. And we already know that when you add deadly force to a job it attracts assholes. I respect the police, but there's no overlooking the fact that some cops join the force because they want the chance to push people around and the swagger of carrying a gun.

Now Trump wants to bring those people into the classroom while driving out those who don't want to work with them. Idiocy.

[Paingod]

Training might be great, but there is finite time. And for every conflict resolution, firing training, close quarters, safety, emergency, classroom management, team drills, and oversight testing hour take away an hour of actual teaching or educational training.

I want the educators of my children to be kind, compassionate, understanding, patient, knowledgeable, personable, dignified, well integrated in the community, and provide all the needed school supplies for my kids.

I also want them to be able to safely and tactically advance down a hallway, establish safe zones, clear rooms, shoot accurately, instantly distinguish between an active shooter and a fleeing child, and not hesitate to kill.

I need this for $34,000 per year.

If we can figure out how to make Terminator robots for $4.08 million each, and each has a battery life of 120 years, that math fits perfectly and they can switch cleanly between being friendly educators and tactical killing machines.

[Unagi]

One teacher wrote:

"I can't love and care for your child one year and then shoot him dead the next year. Sorry, can't do that."

[Grifman]

That handgun's not going to kill as many people in as short a period of time. So the theoretical ban would have still potentially saved lives.

Whoever made the point about a fast person with a knife being able to do as much damage as an AR-15 so why bother nailed it.

You can't solve all gun problems with a single act. Suggesting that there will still be gun problems after making some changes is a given. It's guaranteed.

That is not an argument to do nothing.

I don't believe anyone, including myself if saying that. I just don't think anything will be done of a significant nature.

[Rip]

Well then it sounds like we will be doing pretty much nothing.

[msteelers]

Whoever made the point about a fast person with a knife being able to do as much damage as an AR-15 so why bother nailed it.

In 2014, Franklin Regional High School outside of Pittsburgh was the target of a knife attack. I didn't attend the high school, but it's in the hometown I grew up in. It's where my parents went, and where they met. I have cousins that went there. My uncle worked there.

My first thought upon hearing a student injured two dozen people with a knife was thank god he used a knife. Yes, some were gravely injured. But it could have been much, much worse if he went in with an AR-15.

[Unagi]

Well then it sounds like we will be doing pretty much nothing.

FTFY

[Skinypupy]

Well then it sounds like we will be doing pretty much nothing.

Whelp, since we can't turn geometry teachers into wannabe Rambos, then...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Guess there's no other options.

[Blackhawk]

I'm sure Trump has no ulterior motives when it comes to this whole 'weapons in schools things.' I'd be much more suspicious if, for example, he had someone in the school system already with close ties to armed contractors. Or if the source of those ties had already been linked to the Trump-Russia debacle.

Spoiler:

Like Betsy DeVos and her brother.

[noxiousdog]

That handgun's not going to kill as many people in as short a period of time. So the theoretical ban would have still potentially saved lives.

That theoretically sounds potentially useful.

[Kurth]

That handgun's not going to kill as many people in as short a period of time. So the theoretical ban would have still potentially saved lives.

Whoever made the point about a fast person with a knife being able to do as much damage as an AR-15 so why bother nailed it.

You can't solve all gun problems with a single act. Suggesting that there will still be gun problems after making some changes is a given. It's guaranteed.

That is not an argument to do nothing.

I don't believe anyone, including myself if saying that. I just don't think anything will be done of a significant nature.

+1
Hope we're wrong, but I doubt it.

As as aside, I coach a high school mock trial team in the Portland greater metro area, and we had practice last night. The students had just held a walk-out earlier in the week. I was talking to their teacher after practice, and his sentiments perfectly echoed those of Combustible Lemur. He said he would quit -- and so would the vast majority of his colleagues -- if there's a real movement to arm teachers in the schools.

Also, I grew up in rural Pennsylvania where guns were prevalent (the first day of deer season was an official day off of school). Both my parents were public school teachers. One in high school, one in middle school. They are 100% opposed to the idea of armed teachers. For the safety of the teachers. For the safety of the students. For what it would do to undermine and degrade the learning environment.

Arming our teachers and turning our schools into fortresses is not an acceptable answer to this problem.

[Carpet_pissr]

Gotta start somewhere, and voting with money and supporting businesses that are paying attention to these things is a tiny, marginal start. Voting and "will of the people" is apparently bullshit in modern America, but hit a company in the bottom line (or support them due to an action), and shit gets paid attention to.

[Grifman]

[Jag]

Arming our teachers and turning our schools into fortresses is not an acceptable answer to this problem.

Not to mention SWAT usually shoots the person holding a gun. It is honestly the stupidest and disingenuous thing to focus on, which is why Trump is doing it. He knows it will fail and then all the gun cultists can say, hey we tried to do something.

And god help you if you are an armed black teacher. You will get blown away just for possession.

[Moliere]

On the subject of armed school guards it's often said that contracted officers will not execute if the worst happens. It looks like in Parkland FL there was a paid armed security officer on campus who did not engage and now has voluntarily resigned.

School Resource Officer Who Failed to Confront Mass Shooter Previously Defended Cops Living at School Rent-Free

Not only did Peterson fail to confront Cruz—he also failed to assist a previous investigation, undertaken by state authorities, to determine whether Cruz was a threat to himself or others. His mistakes compound the errors made by other law enforcement entities, including the FBI and Broward County PD.

The housing program was in effect at 32 different Broward County schools. Officials reasoned that cops living at the schools would mean 24-hour security. But a 2015 audit determined that the program was a waste of money.

The auditor said, "Frankly, I'm embarrassed," and "I would shut it down immediately," according to the Sun Sentinel. Officials could find no evidence that the live-in cops were deterring crime.
...
Yet according to the audit, one of the officers had even made the decision to sublet his on-campus mobile home to two people who weren't police officers. Most of the officers did not turn in monthly reports detailing their activities, and failed to respond to 73 percent of security alarm triggers. But ending the program would be unfair, said Peterson. "You are talking about the livelihood of some of these people," he said at the time.

The housing program for school resource officers wasn't really about safety. It was welfare for state employees. Seen through this lens, Peterson's utter failure to confront the shooter isn't particularly surprising.