Amazon has whacked our affiliate account. Hosting Donations/Commitments $2063 of $1920 (Sept 13/18). In Hand $1466 (Lump sum payments minus paypal graft). Paypal Donation Link Here

All things: China

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

User avatar
Moliere
Posts: 12007
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
Location: Walking through a desert land

All things: China

Post by Moliere » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:22 pm

China’s Xi sets himself up to rule for life
Almost exactly five years ago, a newly anointed President Xi Jinping met his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin and declared they shared similar “personalities.”

The comments, reported by the Kremlin news service but not by Chinese state media, went largely unnoticed at the time. But on Sunday, the parallels between the two leaders were too stark to ignore.

China’s Communist Party is to abolish a two-term limit on the presidency, state media announced, potentially opening the door for Xi to rule for life.

In that simple step, the Communist Party showed that it has forgotten one of the main lessons of the despotic rule of Mao Zedong, wrote Chinese legal expert and New York University professor Jerome Cohen in a blog post.

The two-term limit was inserted into the constitution after the brutal and chaotic Cultural Revolution to prevent a return of one-man dictatorship. “Its abolition signals the likelihood of another long period of severe repression,” Cohen wrote.
Image
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow

User avatar
Moliere
Posts: 12007
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
Location: Walking through a desert land

Re: All things: China

Post by Moliere » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:39 am

China’s war on words: Anything — be it a phrase or picture — that can be used to insult Xi has been banned
Earlier this week the Communist Party Council announced (a day before it actually met) that the limit of two five-year presidential terms will be abolished and Xi Jinping’s guiding philosophy would be written into the constitution.

Immediately, Beijing’s censors set to work.

They’ve attacked the very words people would need to use to express discontent.

“Emperor”’

“Two term limit”.

“Control”.

These top a long list of terms now blocked by China’s state controlled social media platform, Weibo, as well as the search engine Baidu.

And while you cannot burn electronic books, Beijing’s done the next best thing.

Animal Farm.

1984.

Brave New World.

Simply mentioning the names of novels and authors which paint dystopian pictures of worlds under authoritarian leadership is no longer permitted.

Image

So cartoons featuring the character have been exploited to indirectly mock their leader.

Shortly after the announcement earlier this week, Weibo users started circulating an innocent post from Disney’s official account.

It showed Winnie Pooh hugging a large pot of honey.

Beneath was the caption “find the thing you love and stick with it.”

It — along with every other Pooh reference they can find — has been exterminated by the censors.
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow

User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 60590
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: All things: China

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:54 am

China bankrupts Montenegro
Perched atop massive cement pillars that tower above Montenegro's picturesque Moraca river canyon, scores of Chinese workers are building a state-of-the-art highway through some of the roughest terrain in southern Europe.

The government has described the 165 km (103 mile) highway, with its imposing bridges and deep-cut tunnels, as the construction of the century and a pathway to the modern world.

It is designed to link the port of Bar on Montenegro's Adriatic coast to landlocked neighbour Serbia. But once the first, challenging 41 km stretch through mountains north of the capital is completed, the government faces a difficult choice.

A Chinese loan for the first phase has sent Montenegro's debt soaring and forced the government to raise taxes, partially freeze public sector wages and end a benefit for mothers to get its finances in order.

Despite those measures, Montenegro's debt is expected to approach 80 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) this year and the International Monetary Fund says the country cannot afford to take on any more debt to finish its ambitious project.

"There is a big question about how they complete it," said an EU official who requested anonymity. "Their fiscal space has shrunk enormously. They have strangled themselves. And for the time being this is a highway to nowhere."

The road is at the heart of an intense debate about Chinese influence in Europe, both within EU member states and countries aspiring to join the bloc such as Montenegro and its Western Balkan neighbours Serbia, Macedonia and Albania.

As Beijing extends its economic reach under the ambitious Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), poor countries across Asia and Africa have seized on attractive Chinese loans and the promise of transformative infrastructure projects.

This has allowed them to develop in ways that may not have been possible without access to China's vast foreign exchange reserves. But some countries, such as Sri Lanka, Djibouti and Mongolia, have found themselves weighed down by debt and ever more reliant on Beijing's largesse.
Silver - 1k

User avatar
naednek
Posts: 8939
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:23 pm
naednek’s avatar
Offline

Re: All things: China

Post by naednek » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:36 pm

I humbly request that you change the title to All things: Jina
hepcat - "I agree with Naednek"

User avatar
Pyperkub
Posts: 18990
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: NC- that's Northern California
Contact:

Re: All things: China

Post by Pyperkub » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:41 pm

UK issues Huawei advisory
Top UK security officials say they can only provide "limited assurance" that telecom equipment provided by Huawei poses no threat to national security.

The Chinese company, which sells smartphones and telecommunications equipment around the world, is monitored in the United Kingdom by a government oversight panel called the Huawei Cyber Security Evaluation Centre.

In an annual report published on Thursday, the panel warned that "shortcomings in Huawei's engineering processes have exposed new risks in the UK telecommunication networks."

"The Oversight Board can provide only limited assurance that any risks to UK national security from Huawei's involvement in the UK's critical networks have been sufficiently mitigated," it added.
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 32504
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: All things: China

Post by El Guapo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:01 pm

I believe it's pronounced CHAI-NAH.

User avatar
Fretmute
Posts: 8437
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:05 pm
Location: On a hillside, desolate
Fretmute’s avatar
Loading…

Re: All things: China

Post by Fretmute » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:08 pm

Image

User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 17841
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: All things: China

Post by Defiant » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:49 am


User avatar
Moliere
Posts: 12007
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
Location: Walking through a desert land

Re: All things: China

Post by Moliere » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:58 am

Chinese Novelist Gets 10-Year Prison Sentence Because Her Homoerotic Books Sold Too Well
A Chinese writer could spend the next 10 years behind bars for publishing books that include descriptions of gay sex. Why such a harsh sentence? Apparently, she sold too many copies of her books.

The book that apparently caught authorities' attention is titled Occupy (or Occupation, depending on which outlet's translation you prefer). Chinese state media reports that it "obscenely and in detail described gay male-male acts." The book's homoeroticism reportedly involves a relationship between a male student and his teacher.

Pornography is illegal in China, so it's not surprising that the writer, known by her surname Liu as well as well as her internet alias Tianyi, was convicted. But even given that, the length of her sentence is jarring.
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow

User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 17841
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: All things: China

Post by Defiant » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:06 pm

Uighur woman details horrific abuse in China internment camp
A member of the Uighur minority on Monday detailed torture and abuse she says she experienced in one of the internment camps where the Chinese government has detained hundreds of thousands of religious minorities.
Human rights groups say China has detained up to 2 million Uighurs to promote what the government calls "ethnic unity" in the country's far west. On Monday, over 270 scholars from 26 countries released a statement drawing attention to "mass human rights abuses and deliberate attacks on indigenous cultures" taking place in China.

User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 40570
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: All things: China

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:37 pm

Canadian sentenced to 15 years in China in 2014 for drug smuggling, now sentenced to death when his case was "re-evaluated".

They are really, really unhappy Meng Wanzhou is under arrest.

This is so stupid. The only thing keeping us from murdering her arbitrarily like they are doing is the rule of law, which is the same thing that compelled us to arrest her in the first place. Trying to force us into ignoring our laws could just as easily result in things getting worse for Meng.

If we thought as the Chinese did, who would come out of this worse? Canada, who has a nobody drug smuggler in Chinese hands, or China, who has Chinese "royalty" in Canadian hands?

At least this reminds us that the Chinese civility is just a charade. Murdering your own people for political reasons is pretty much the antithesis of western society. Murdering foreigners for geopolitical reasons is barbarism.

User avatar
Victoria Raverna
Posts: 3597
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
Location: Jakarta

Re: All things: China

Post by Victoria Raverna » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:47 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:37 pm
Canadian sentenced to 15 years in China in 2014 for drug smuggling, now sentenced to death when his case was "re-evaluated".

They are really, really unhappy Meng Wanzhou is under arrest.

This is so stupid. The only thing keeping us from murdering her arbitrarily like they are doing is the rule of law, which is the same thing that compelled us to arrest her in the first place. Trying to force us into ignoring our laws could just as easily result in things getting worse for Meng.

If we thought as the Chinese did, who would come out of this worse? Canada, who has a nobody drug smuggler in Chinese hands, or China, who has Chinese "royalty" in Canadian hands?

At least this reminds us that the Chinese civility is just a charade. Murdering your own people for political reasons is pretty much the antithesis of western society. Murdering foreigners for geopolitical reasons is barbarism.
Why do you think it is okay to force them into ignoring their laws but not okay to force you into ignoring your laws?

Death penalty for drug smuggling is a punishment according to China's laws.

It is not as if they just suddenly reevaluate and change the punishment. The drug smuggler appealed the 15 years conviction and the death penalty sentence was the result of that appeal.

The drug smuggler was not just a tourist that got caught smuggling some drug for his personal use. He is part of a criminal ring that tried to smuggle 500 pounds of methamphetamines to Australia.

User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 40570
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: All things: China

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:09 pm

Dude, I'd answer you seriously if you took the situation seriously.

He was convicted 4 years ago.

Somehow 4 years into his 15 year sentence the same crime is worth the death penalty on appeal?

This is on top of multiple politically motivated arrests.

I'm more than willing to look at the facts. Are you?

User avatar
Victoria Raverna
Posts: 3597
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
Location: Jakarta

Re: All things: China

Post by Victoria Raverna » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:12 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:09 pm
Dude, I'd answer you seriously if you took the situation seriously.

He was convicted 4 years ago.

Somehow 4 years into his 15 year sentence the same crime is worth the death penalty on appeal?

This is on top of multiple politically motivated arrests.

I'm more than willing to look at the facts. Are you?
It is normal for an appeal to result in higher sentence. Maybe not in US but in China and Indonesia, an appeal doesn't always result in same or lesser sentence.

User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 40570
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: All things: China

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:15 pm

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:12 pm
It is normal for an appeal to result in higher sentence. Maybe not in US but in China and Indonesia, an appeal doesn't always result in same or lesser sentence.
Well, you've convinced me. Everything seems to be in order here. I have every confidence in the Chinese rule of law and the very idea that this is politically motivated is absurd.

China doesn't think we're this stupid, why do you?

malchior
Posts: 8653
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: All things: China

Post by malchior » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:18 pm

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:12 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:09 pm
Dude, I'd answer you seriously if you took the situation seriously.

He was convicted 4 years ago.

Somehow 4 years into his 15 year sentence the same crime is worth the death penalty on appeal?

This is on top of multiple politically motivated arrests.

I'm more than willing to look at the facts. Are you?
It is normal for an appeal to result in higher sentence. Maybe not in US but in China and Indonesia, an appeal doesn't always result in same or lesser sentence.
Sure but the Chinese government paraded cameras into the appeal hearing to make a spectacle of it. People thought it was odd. It then suddenly ended up with a death penalty which was a shock to nearly everyone involved. I think it is fair to speculate that this wasn't on the up and up.

User avatar
Victoria Raverna
Posts: 3597
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
Location: Jakarta

Re: All things: China

Post by Victoria Raverna » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:18 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:15 pm
Victoria Raverna wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:12 pm
It is normal for an appeal to result in higher sentence. Maybe not in US but in China and Indonesia, an appeal doesn't always result in same or lesser sentence.
Well, you've convinced me. Everything seems to be in order here. I have every confidence in the Chinese rule of law and the very idea that this is politically motivated is absurd.

China doesn't think we're this stupid, why do you?
Do you have any proof that the death sentence was caused by the Huawei case?

Did China tell Canada that the death sentence was a payback?

User avatar
NickAragua
Posts: 4399
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:20 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: All things: China

Post by NickAragua » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:35 pm

Sure is convenient that the appeal just *happened* to get re-considered right this second. Very coincidental.

Remember that China is an authoritarian dictatorship. Rule of law has nothing to do with it if somebody higher up whispers some "friendly advice" into the judge's ear. At that point, no amount of legal representation or innocence will help the guy on trial.

User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 40570
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: All things: China

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:20 am

edit: Whoops, I thought that was Vic responding. My bad.

User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 40570
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: All things: China

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:37 am

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:18 pm
Do you have any proof that the death sentence was caused by the Huawei case?

Did China tell Canada that the death sentence was a payback?
Dude. The west follows the rule of law. That doesn't make us idiots.

If it helps, this isn't a single, isolated event. China has made a point of targeting and arresting Canadians that began the moment Meng was arrested.

Why am I bothering with this? You (global you) either understand what is happening or you attempt to provide cover for it. There is no confusion over what is happening.

User avatar
Victoria Raverna
Posts: 3597
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
Location: Jakarta

Re: All things: China

Post by Victoria Raverna » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:51 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:37 am
Victoria Raverna wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:18 pm
Do you have any proof that the death sentence was caused by the Huawei case?

Did China tell Canada that the death sentence was a payback?
Dude. The west follows the rule of law. That doesn't make us idiots.

If it helps, this isn't a single, isolated event. China has made a point of targeting and arresting Canadians that began the moment Meng was arrested.

Why am I bothering with this? You (global you) either understand what is happening or you attempt to provide cover for it. There is no confusion over what is happening.
The thing that bother me is that westerners think that other countries have to ignore their laws because westerners think it is wrong or barbaric, but insist that their own countries have to follow their laws.

IF Canada has to arrest Meng because it is Canada's law, then China also have to sentence drug smuggler with death penalty because that is China's law.

You don't want other countries to interfere or force your country to do something like freeing Meng but you want to interfere with China's justice.

User avatar
TheMix
Posts: 7216
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:19 pm
Location: Broomfield, Colorado
TheMix’s avatar
Online

Re: All things: China

Post by TheMix » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:30 am

VR, I really can't decide if you are naive or trolling. You've continued to completely ignore the points being made. You seem to have a specific ax to grind that isn't even what is being discussed.
Isgrimnur - Facebook makes you hate your friends and family. LinkedIn makes you hate you co-workers. NextDoor makes you hate your neighbors.

User avatar
NickAragua
Posts: 4399
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:20 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: All things: China

Post by NickAragua » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:39 am

This forum seems like a pretty low-priority target for dedicated Chinese propaganda, honestly.

User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 23192
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: All things: China

Post by noxiousdog » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:13 am

TheMix wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:30 am
VR, I really can't decide if you are naive or trolling. You've continued to completely ignore the points being made. You seem to have a specific ax to grind that isn't even what is being discussed.
Both. He's been anti-west from day 1.
My continuing adventures of learning to play piano. - Now Playing Moonlight Sonata

Amazon Kindle Book Loaning Thread

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog

User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 40570
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: All things: China

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:48 am

Canada has issued a travel warning re: China.

China has responded that it is unnecessary, that Canadians are safe in China as long as they obey the law, and that the warning is like thieves shouting "thieves" and that it is Canada who is applying their laws arbitrarily.

Hilariously, China wouldn't even name the US in the dispute, calling them a "third party". What complete cowards. Meng is under house arrest btw, so she's not even in custody but free to enjoy all the comforts of home.

China's stance is Vic's stance. Prove it. Well the beauty is that it doesn't have to be proved. That's for courts. All involved know what China is doing, and has been doing since Meng was arrested. Pretending otherwise is dishonest. I expect nothing less.

Another Huawei bad actor got turfed in Poland for espionage during this debacle.

I have no idea why we haven't just handed Meng over to the US and be done with it. I should probably find out.

If China wants to put drug smugglers to death, have at it. I'm opposed to the death penalty everywhere, not just repressive regimes, but whatever. If they want to start assassinating Canadians with their "legal" system, that's something else entirely. No new evidence was introduced, and without knew evidence even China's legal system doesn't allow for increased sentencing. Magically the result is different this time.

Go back to murdering your own people and be thankful we don't have the death penalty for breaking international sanctions, you cowards.

malchior
Posts: 8653
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: All things: China

Post by malchior » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:59 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:48 am
I have no idea why we haven't just handed Meng over to the US and be done with it. I should probably find out.
Most likely reason - due process. What monsters the Canadians are!
If China wants to put drug smugglers to death, have at it. I'm opposed to the death penalty everywhere, not just repressive regimes, but whatever. If they want to start assassinating Canadians with their "legal" system, that's something else entirely. No new evidence was introduced, and without knew evidence even China's legal system doesn't allow for increased sentencing. Magically the result is different this time.
The whole sequence makes it obvious the death penalty is some bizarre extortion attempt.

User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 40570
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: All things: China

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:12 pm

I expect nothing less from China, although one of the major issues I take besides the obvious, is that China has gone after Canada and Canadians viciously, but have barely acknowledged the US's role in this, and rarely even referenced the US at all.

Meng was not stupid enough to land in the US. I guess she thought Canada was safe, despite our well documented historical relationship with the US?

The whole thing feels like the two countries having it out using Canada as proxy, with Canadian citizens suffering as a result. Whether Meng is or isn't guilty of the crimes she's accused of is not for Canada to decide. I'm still waiting to hear about Americans being arbitrarily detained, China. I'm shocked to find out the supposed rule of law doesn't arbitrarily apply to citizens of your biggest trade partner with whom you are currently in an economic war. Shocked.

User avatar
Victoria Raverna
Posts: 3597
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
Location: Jakarta

Re: All things: China

Post by Victoria Raverna » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:52 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:13 am
TheMix wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:30 am
VR, I really can't decide if you are naive or trolling. You've continued to completely ignore the points being made. You seem to have a specific ax to grind that isn't even what is being discussed.
Both. He's been anti-west from day 1.
I'm not anti west. Just anti hypocrisy where it is okay to use rule of law excuse for one side but not the other side.

User avatar
Victoria Raverna
Posts: 3597
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
Location: Jakarta

Re: All things: China

Post by Victoria Raverna » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:02 pm

Seem like increase sentence on appeal is also something that can happen in US:

https://sentencing.typepad.com/sentenci ... -lwop.html

User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 40570
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: All things: China

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:40 pm

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:02 pm
Seem like increase sentence on appeal is also something that can happen in US:

https://sentencing.typepad.com/sentenci ... -lwop.html
I don't know how to say this any other way. Dude, Canadian citizens are being murdered because Meng is a criminal. That they are using the legal system to do it doesn't change anything. You're starting to seriously offend me. I don't believe for a second that you're arguing in good faith, so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't continue to tell me how China arresting and killing Canadians is justified because "legal system". Attempting to provide cover for this is insulting to both our intelligence. Please stop.

China can go back to killing its own citizens.

User avatar
Remus West
Posts: 32888
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Not in Westland

Re: All things: China

Post by Remus West » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:36 pm

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:52 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:13 am
TheMix wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:30 am
VR, I really can't decide if you are naive or trolling. You've continued to completely ignore the points being made. You seem to have a specific ax to grind that isn't even what is being discussed.
Both. He's been anti-west from day 1.
I'm not anti west. Just anti hypocrisy where it is okay to use rule of law excuse for one side but not the other side.
Simple, when one side is twisting its rule of law to fit the needs of its geopolitical aims rather than the merits of the case. China had no legal need to reexamine the case. They had a political one. Feel free to point out when the US has done similar, I don't know of any cases but it certainly wouldn't shock me to learn we had.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken

User avatar
Alefroth
Posts: 4468
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Bellingham WA

Re: All things: China

Post by Alefroth » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:57 pm

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:52 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:13 am
TheMix wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:30 am
VR, I really can't decide if you are naive or trolling. You've continued to completely ignore the points being made. You seem to have a specific ax to grind that isn't even what is being discussed.
Both. He's been anti-west from day 1.
I'm not anti west. Just anti hypocrisy where it is okay to use rule of law excuse for one side but not the other side.
You're merely an apologist giving the benefit of the doubt to a country with one of the worst human rights records in history. You're being disingenuous at best.

User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 40570
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: All things: China

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:33 pm

Remus West wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:36 pm
Simple, when one side is twisting its rule of law to fit the needs of its geopolitical aims rather than the merits of the case. China had no legal need to reexamine the case. They had a political one. Feel free to point out when the US has done similar, I don't know of any cases but it certainly wouldn't shock me to learn we had.
Particularly since Canada is taking the brunt of this for the US, I'd especially like to see cases where Canada has done so, as the Chinese seem perfectly content to let America off the hook while killing the messenger.

Cowards.

edit: I'd also like to see cases where either country (Canada or the US) have used their rule of law to enact tougher penalties than normal to forward their geopolitical aims, rather than lighter ones. I can easily imagine many scenarios where both countries let criminals go free if it's in their national interests. I have a much harder time imagining an unjust application of the legal system to punish foreign citizens for actions of their home country. That's pretty close to the least acceptable use of the justice system that either Canadians or Americans can think of.

We might accept letting a criminal go. We absolutely would not accept putting someone to death because of the actions of their country, particularly so if they are unassociated with those actions. The very notion is offensive, and there's nothing hypocritical about it.
Last edited by GreenGoo on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 23192
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: All things: China

Post by noxiousdog » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:34 pm

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:52 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:13 am
TheMix wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:30 am
VR, I really can't decide if you are naive or trolling. You've continued to completely ignore the points being made. You seem to have a specific ax to grind that isn't even what is being discussed.
Both. He's been anti-west from day 1.
I'm not anti west. Just anti hypocrisy where it is okay to use rule of law excuse for one side but not the other side.
Then you're a troll. You're an Alex Jones/Steve Bannon type that draws false equivalency, ignores nuance, ignores infractions by your side, and exaggerates conflict. You've been doing it since you arrived and I'm glad you post so little.
My continuing adventures of learning to play piano. - Now Playing Moonlight Sonata

Amazon Kindle Book Loaning Thread

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog

User avatar
Victoria Raverna
Posts: 3597
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
Location: Jakarta

Re: All things: China

Post by Victoria Raverna » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:52 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:40 pm
Victoria Raverna wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:02 pm
Seem like increase sentence on appeal is also something that can happen in US:

https://sentencing.typepad.com/sentenci ... -lwop.html
I don't know how to say this any other way. Dude, Canadian citizens are being murdered because Meng is a criminal. That they are using the legal system to do it doesn't change anything. You're starting to seriously offend me. I don't believe for a second that you're arguing in good faith, so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't continue to tell me how China arresting and killing Canadians is justified because "legal system". Attempting to provide cover for this is insulting to both our intelligence. Please stop.

China can go back to killing its own citizens.
This is not an innocent Canadian tourist that got caught in China bringing a bit of drug for personal use. This is someone that is involved in big smuggling operation. The guy also previously convicted drug related charges before in Canada.

I'm against death penalty but to claim that this is murder is not honest. The guy is a criminal that broke China's law. According to China law, death penalty is one of the sentence you can get for drug trafficking. It is not as if China suddenly sentence a Canadian for death penalty for a crime that are not normally sentenced with death penalty there.

China executed a lot of drug traffickers including some foreigners for years now.



https://www.abbynews.com/news/man-sente ... bbotsford/

A man sentenced to death in China on Monday for his role in a 2014 drug-smuggling operation has previously served two jail terms for drug crimes in Abbotsford.

Robert Lloyd Schellenberg, 36, formerly of Abbotsford, was sentenced to one year in prison in February 2010 and two years of probation on three counts of possession for the purpose of trafficking, according to the online provincial court database.

He was also charged with four more offences – two counts of possession for the purpose of trafficking and two counts of possession of a controlled substance – in August 2011.

That case went to trial in B.C. Supreme Court in Chilliwack, and Schellenberg was convicted of all four charges in 2012 and sentenced to two years in prison. Minus credit for time in pre-trial custody, Schellenberg spent another 16 months in jail.

All of these charges were based in Abbotsford.
Last edited by Victoria Raverna on Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Victoria Raverna
Posts: 3597
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
Location: Jakarta

Re: All things: China

Post by Victoria Raverna » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:57 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:34 pm
Victoria Raverna wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:52 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:13 am
TheMix wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:30 am
VR, I really can't decide if you are naive or trolling. You've continued to completely ignore the points being made. You seem to have a specific ax to grind that isn't even what is being discussed.
Both. He's been anti-west from day 1.
I'm not anti west. Just anti hypocrisy where it is okay to use rule of law excuse for one side but not the other side.
Then you're a troll. You're an Alex Jones/Steve Bannon type that draws false equivalency, ignores nuance, ignores infractions by your side, and exaggerates conflict. You've been doing it since you arrived and I'm glad you post so little.
Seem like you don't like opinion that is against yours.

I thought we're supposed to discuss or hear each other opinions here. Maybe I am wrong, OO is supposed to be an echo chamber that people that agree with each other echo each other's opinions.

Anyone that dare to have a different opinion is a troll to you.

User avatar
Victoria Raverna
Posts: 3597
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
Location: Jakarta

Re: All things: China

Post by Victoria Raverna » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:01 pm

Remus West wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:36 pm
Victoria Raverna wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:52 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:13 am
TheMix wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:30 am
VR, I really can't decide if you are naive or trolling. You've continued to completely ignore the points being made. You seem to have a specific ax to grind that isn't even what is being discussed.
Both. He's been anti-west from day 1.
I'm not anti west. Just anti hypocrisy where it is okay to use rule of law excuse for one side but not the other side.
Simple, when one side is twisting its rule of law to fit the needs of its geopolitical aims rather than the merits of the case. China had no legal need to reexamine the case. They had a political one. Feel free to point out when the US has done similar, I don't know of any cases but it certainly wouldn't shock me to learn we had.
Not exactly correct. The previous sentence was being appealed. So China has legal need to reexamine the case.

User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 40570
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: All things: China

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:42 pm

No one said he was innocent.

Since you refuse to address the problem and continue to attempt to reconstrue the situation to some arbitrary argument irrelevant to the situation, I can only assume you're being intentionally obtuse to defend China's clearly political retribution in some misguided attempt to justify it.

That makes you, objectively, a bad person. I don't hang out with bad people if I can help it, and it turns out in this situation, I can help it.

We have an entire thread dedicated to identifying and condemning abuses of authority and our justice systems. There's nothing hypocritical in identifying those same abuses in China's, the difference being that in ours they are perpetrated by bad actors that the public strives to bring to justice. In China, it's systemic. It's literally how the system works. When miscarriages of justice happen in NA there is civil unrest. In China it's business as usual.

You really have no idea how things work over here, so it helps you sleep at night to think we suck too. We don't. We aren't perfect but we're a damn sight better than China.

China should stick to murdering their own citizens. It's what they're good at.

When we start killing Chinese to increase our bargaining power in trade negotiations, we can revisit the subject. Until then, go suck an egg.

User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 23192
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: All things: China

Post by noxiousdog » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:54 pm

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:57 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:34 pm
Victoria Raverna wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:52 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:13 am
TheMix wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:30 am
VR, I really can't decide if you are naive or trolling. You've continued to completely ignore the points being made. You seem to have a specific ax to grind that isn't even what is being discussed.
Both. He's been anti-west from day 1.
I'm not anti west. Just anti hypocrisy where it is okay to use rule of law excuse for one side but not the other side.
Then you're a troll. You're an Alex Jones/Steve Bannon type that draws false equivalency, ignores nuance, ignores infractions by your side, and exaggerates conflict. You've been doing it since you arrived and I'm glad you post so little.
Seem like you don't like opinion that is against yours.

I thought we're supposed to discuss or hear each other opinions here. Maybe I am wrong, OO is supposed to be an echo chamber that people that agree with each other echo each other's opinions.

Anyone that dare to have a different opinion is a troll to you.
Thank you for proving my point.
My continuing adventures of learning to play piano. - Now Playing Moonlight Sonata

Amazon Kindle Book Loaning Thread

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog

User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 7603
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: All things: China

Post by Max Peck » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:11 pm

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:51 am
You don't want other countries to interfere or force your country to do something like freeing Meng but you want to interfere with China's justice.
So you are saying that China is trying to "force" Canada to free Meng by changing Schellenberg's sentence from imprisonment to death following the one-day show trial? And you're equating that action to Canada's reaction, which is a statement to the effect that they believe the new sentence is a transparent ploy to pressure Canada into dropping the charges against Meng?

That is some Trumpian whataboutism you're tossing about. :coffee:
Time and tide melt the snowman.

There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
-- The Doctor

Post Reply