Trump Trade War

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Rip
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip »

GreenGoo wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:55 am
hepcat wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:42 pm Again, people said the same thing under Bush. I’m not trying to compare the two because Bush was an adult. But I don’t think we’re seeing the death of our democracy.

Personally, I think we’re just seeing the country learning the hard way that putting our faith in celebrities instead of actual people with a brain is just stupid.
I'm not screaming my head off because I think democracy is dead. I'm screaming my head off because some people are actively trying to kill it, right out here in the open, in full view of the country, and everyone is acting like "it's just like when Bush was president. It'll be fine".

It might be fine. Hopefully you're absolutely right.

I'm not advocating panicking, I'm advocating taking the threat seriously, because it sure seems real to me, and we have thousands of years of history showing that the threat wins more than it loses. In fact the threat rarely loses. In that light, confidence that things will "work themselves out" seem...misplaced.
Democracy dead? Wait did he suspend the right to vote or something? Hard to take you guys serious with such hyperbole. You sound like the kooks that said Obama was a secret muslim plant that would take over the country. Surprised you guys are making it so easy for him to win simply by not destroying everything.

I thought he wouldn't have much of a chance to even get the party nomination in 2020 but the closer we get the more evident it becomes that if things are as good economically then as they are now he may have a real chance at reelection. Mostly thanks to the left making dire predictions and seeing them fail to materialize. If Mueller fails you guys may be in real trouble in 2020 as well.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by LordMortis »

stessier wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:36 am
LordMortis wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:29 pm I can only assume he's talking about the Detroit 3 with assemblies in Canada. Which make no sense because he's also declared trade war on Mercedes and their assembly plant in South Carolina.
BMW, not Mercedes.
In South Carolina or do you mean he went after BMW?

Both have assembly plants in South Carolina, so I may have conflated which one he vowed to take off NY streets. That said, they're both German owned and both employ thousands of workers in South Carolina for assembly purposes and both are broadening a more localized supply base because stuff is expensive to transport.

...

And now I gotta know. To the internet!

It's Mercedes. I suppose if his ban fails, he will claim victory with their increased US presence.

You also might be confused by my mentioning Mercedes specifically instead of Freightliner, which is Daimer and only as Mercedes as a Lincoln is a Ford so to clarify:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jaclyntrop ... dc5ce95fb2
Last edited by LordMortis on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by hepcat »

If Ivanka gets a brand for car seat covers and Mercedes becomes a customer, Trump will lift the tarrifs.

Oh, or they could send Eric a toy. He likes Tonka Trucks I've heard.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Holman »

What's really astonishing is watching REPUBLICANS applaud Trump for blowing up the capitalist order that they've supposedly been championing since the 1920s.

It's literally incredible. It's like watching the Rotary Club turn Maoist.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Skinypupy »

Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:55 am Mostly thanks to the left making dire predictions and seeing them fail to materialize.
Yet.

Not that I would expect there to be a single iota of accountability from the GOP if/when they do.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip »

Skinypupy wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:27 am
Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:55 am Mostly thanks to the left making dire predictions and seeing them fail to materialize.
Yet.

Not that I would expect there to be a single iota of accountability from the GOP if/when they do.

About the same chance as there would be of Democrats giving him a little credit if the economy stays good.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by malchior »

Skinypupy wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:27 am
Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:55 am Mostly thanks to the left making dire predictions and seeing them fail to materialize.
Yet.

Not that I would expect there to be a single iota of accountability from the GOP if/when they do.
Yet is strongly operative because the tariff situation hasn't escalated yet. We are beginning to see noise as local business in red states start to feel the pinch. Even the threat of a huge trade war on production inputs is causing initial disruption already.

The saving grace at the moment is the system is fairly well capitalized and unemployment is low. We just have to hope nothing systemic gets in trouble because between the randian elements and the clown show administration we could see a disaster unfold.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip »

malchior wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:54 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:27 am
Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:55 am Mostly thanks to the left making dire predictions and seeing them fail to materialize.
Yet.

Not that I would expect there to be a single iota of accountability from the GOP if/when they do.
Yet is strongly operative because the tariff situation hasn't escalated yet. We are beginning to see noise as local business in red states start to feel the pinch. Even the threat of a huge trade war on production inputs is causing initial disruption already.

The saving grace at the moment is the system is fairly well capitalized and unemployment is low. We just have to hope nothing systemic gets in trouble because between the randian elements and the clown show administration we could see a disaster unfold.
I look forward to hearing your excuse when that disaster fails to happen.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Kraken »

Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:46 pm
malchior wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:54 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:27 am
Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:55 am Mostly thanks to the left making dire predictions and seeing them fail to materialize.
Yet.

Not that I would expect there to be a single iota of accountability from the GOP if/when they do.
Yet is strongly operative because the tariff situation hasn't escalated yet. We are beginning to see noise as local business in red states start to feel the pinch. Even the threat of a huge trade war on production inputs is causing initial disruption already.

The saving grace at the moment is the system is fairly well capitalized and unemployment is low. We just have to hope nothing systemic gets in trouble because between the randian elements and the clown show administration we could see a disaster unfold.
I look forward to hearing your excuse when that disaster fails to happen.
It is still possible -- likely, even -- that Trump's bluster is a hamhanded negotiating technique, and he will back down if the allies blink before any tangible harm is done. Should he go through with his trade war, somebody (the WH Budget Office I think?) recently estimated that it would cancel the stimulative effect of the GOP's tax plan, which is variously estimated at 0.1 to 0.5% of GDP. By itself, the trade war is not an economic disaster. If you stack it with a debt bubble or the next financial crisis, though, it will amplify that. I think that's what malchior is saying.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Zarathud »

Several trillion of unnecessary tax cut stimulus may buy Trump time, but all Pyramid Schemes collapse under the weight of false promises.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rumpy »

malchior wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:54 pm Yet is strongly operative because the tariff situation hasn't escalated yet. We are beginning to see noise as local business in red states start to feel the pinch. Even the threat of a huge trade war on production inputs is causing initial disruption already.
The tariffs go into effect in July, I believe, which I fully expect when things will start to really be felt. But yeah, I've already read articles where some company stocks have gone down since the announcement. Trickle-down economics at work.

I read recently an interesting perspective from a retired Pittsburgh steel worker, who voted for Trump but feels the tariffs are a terrible idea:

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/ret ... -1.4686527
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Holman »

Trump economic adviser says there is a "special place in Hell" for Trudeau for "backstabbing" us.
White House trade adviser Peter Navarro lit into Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Sunday, saying there's a "special place in hell" for a world leader who double crosses President Donald Trump.

"There's a special place in hell for any foreign leader that engages in bad-faith diplomacy with President Donald J. Trump and then tries to stab him in the back on the way out the door," Navarro told Chris Wallace on "Fox News Sunday." "And that's what bad-faith Justin Trudeau did with that stunt press conference."

When asked whether the president shares his views, Navarro said the sentiment came “right from Air Force One."
That's the language you use for enemies, not allies and partners. This fricking idiot.

IIRC, it has been reported that Trump picked Navarro on Jared's recommendation, and that Jared picked him merely because he liked the title of Navarro's book Death by China, which he had not read.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by IceBear »

Especially since Trudeau didn't actually say anything that he hadn't already said over the past few weeks

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4700061
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip »

Holman wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:41 pm Trump economic adviser says there is a "special place in Hell" for Trudeau for "backstabbing" us.
White House trade adviser Peter Navarro lit into Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Sunday, saying there's a "special place in hell" for a world leader who double crosses President Donald Trump.

"There's a special place in hell for any foreign leader that engages in bad-faith diplomacy with President Donald J. Trump and then tries to stab him in the back on the way out the door," Navarro told Chris Wallace on "Fox News Sunday." "And that's what bad-faith Justin Trudeau did with that stunt press conference."

When asked whether the president shares his views, Navarro said the sentiment came “right from Air Force One."
That's the language you use for enemies, not allies and partners. This fricking idiot.

IIRC, it has been reported that Trump picked Navarro on Jared's recommendation, and that Jared picked him merely because he liked the title of Navarro's book Death by China, which he had not read.
That is precious. Maybe he learned it here by watching how we speak about fellow citizens and political leaders.....?

Not that you are wrong, it was stupid, but glass houses and stones something something.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Holman »

Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:23 pm
Holman wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:41 pm Trump economic adviser says there is a "special place in Hell" for Trudeau for "backstabbing" us.
White House trade adviser Peter Navarro lit into Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Sunday, saying there's a "special place in hell" for a world leader who double crosses President Donald Trump.

"There's a special place in hell for any foreign leader that engages in bad-faith diplomacy with President Donald J. Trump and then tries to stab him in the back on the way out the door," Navarro told Chris Wallace on "Fox News Sunday." "And that's what bad-faith Justin Trudeau did with that stunt press conference."

When asked whether the president shares his views, Navarro said the sentiment came “right from Air Force One."
That's the language you use for enemies, not allies and partners. This fricking idiot.

IIRC, it has been reported that Trump picked Navarro on Jared's recommendation, and that Jared picked him merely because he liked the title of Navarro's book Death by China, which he had not read.
That is precious. Maybe he learned it here by watching how we speak about fellow citizens and political leaders.....?

Not that you are wrong, it was stupid, but glass houses and stones something something.
I am trying to follow this. I really am. It's so short that I feel I should be able to parse it, but I can't.

Anyone?
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by wonderpug »

Holman wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:15 pm
Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:23 pm
Holman wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:41 pm Trump economic adviser says there is a "special place in Hell" for Trudeau for "backstabbing" us.
White House trade adviser Peter Navarro lit into Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Sunday, saying there's a "special place in hell" for a world leader who double crosses President Donald Trump.

"There's a special place in hell for any foreign leader that engages in bad-faith diplomacy with President Donald J. Trump and then tries to stab him in the back on the way out the door," Navarro told Chris Wallace on "Fox News Sunday." "And that's what bad-faith Justin Trudeau did with that stunt press conference."

When asked whether the president shares his views, Navarro said the sentiment came “right from Air Force One."
That's the language you use for enemies, not allies and partners. This fricking idiot.

IIRC, it has been reported that Trump picked Navarro on Jared's recommendation, and that Jared picked him merely because he liked the title of Navarro's book Death by China, which he had not read.
That is precious. Maybe he learned it here by watching how we speak about fellow citizens and political leaders.....?

Not that you are wrong, it was stupid, but glass houses and stones something something.
I am trying to follow this. I really am. It's so short that I feel I should be able to parse it, but I can't.

Anyone?
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by LordMortis »

Holman wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:15 pm
Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:23 pm
Holman wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:41 pm Trump economic adviser says there is a "special place in Hell" for Trudeau for "backstabbing" us.
White House trade adviser Peter Navarro lit into Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Sunday, saying there's a "special place in hell" for a world leader who double crosses President Donald Trump.

"There's a special place in hell for any foreign leader that engages in bad-faith diplomacy with President Donald J. Trump and then tries to stab him in the back on the way out the door," Navarro told Chris Wallace on "Fox News Sunday." "And that's what bad-faith Justin Trudeau did with that stunt press conference."

When asked whether the president shares his views, Navarro said the sentiment came “right from Air Force One."
That's the language you use for enemies, not allies and partners. This fricking idiot.

IIRC, it has been reported that Trump picked Navarro on Jared's recommendation, and that Jared picked him merely because he liked the title of Navarro's book Death by China, which he had not read.
That is precious. Maybe he learned it here by watching how we speak about fellow citizens and political leaders.....?

Not that you are wrong, it was stupid, but glass houses and stones something something.
I am trying to follow this. I really am. It's so short that I feel I should be able to parse it, but I can't.

Anyone?
We attack the presidency, our presidency and they are attacking their allies in kind.


I'm still trying to figure out where "bad faith diplomacy" is coming from, assuming double cross is politico's edit and taking the quote itself at its word. As far as I can tell all of bad faith diplomacy is coming from one seat. It's in North America but ain't Canada.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/ ... ade-240611
But Navarro’s policy stances have sometimes alienated him from other White House aides. He vigorously advocated for the president to pull out of NAFTA, the 1994 agreement that knocked down trade barriers between the United States, Mexico and Canada. Trump almost did until other White House advisers learned of the plan and enlisted foreign leaders, businesses, and senior lawmakers to lobby the president to remain in the agreement, arguing that leaving would hurt the economy and the supply chain.

Instead, Trump said he would re-negotiate NAFTA, a blow to Navarro’s trade vision. Navarro says that Trump still has the option to pull out of NAFTA, if the U.S. trade representative cannot, in the end, negotiate a good deal for the country.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by malchior »

Kraken wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:17 pm
Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:46 pm
malchior wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:54 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:27 am
Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:55 am Mostly thanks to the left making dire predictions and seeing them fail to materialize.
Yet.

Not that I would expect there to be a single iota of accountability from the GOP if/when they do.
Yet is strongly operative because the tariff situation hasn't escalated yet. We are beginning to see noise as local business in red states start to feel the pinch. Even the threat of a huge trade war on production inputs is causing initial disruption already.

The saving grace at the moment is the system is fairly well capitalized and unemployment is low. We just have to hope nothing systemic gets in trouble because between the randian elements and the clown show administration we could see a disaster unfold.
I look forward to hearing your excuse when that disaster fails to happen.
It is still possible -- likely, even -- that Trump's bluster is a hamhanded negotiating technique, and he will back down if the allies blink before any tangible harm is done. Should he go through with his trade war, somebody (the WH Budget Office I think?) recently estimated that it would cancel the stimulative effect of the GOP's tax plan, which is variously estimated at 0.1 to 0.5% of GDP. By itself, the trade war is not an economic disaster. If you stack it with a debt bubble or the next financial crisis, though, it will amplify that. I think that's what malchior is saying.
Correct - this is an unnecessary risk without a gain. And it is a very dangerous one because things look *really good* right now so we have a higher chance to miss the warning signs. Like every other black swan event ever.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Alefroth »

Holman wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:15 pm
Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:23 pm
Holman wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:41 pm Trump economic adviser says there is a "special place in Hell" for Trudeau for "backstabbing" us.
White House trade adviser Peter Navarro lit into Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Sunday, saying there's a "special place in hell" for a world leader who double crosses President Donald Trump.

"There's a special place in hell for any foreign leader that engages in bad-faith diplomacy with President Donald J. Trump and then tries to stab him in the back on the way out the door," Navarro told Chris Wallace on "Fox News Sunday." "And that's what bad-faith Justin Trudeau did with that stunt press conference."

When asked whether the president shares his views, Navarro said the sentiment came “right from Air Force One."
That's the language you use for enemies, not allies and partners. This fricking idiot.

IIRC, it has been reported that Trump picked Navarro on Jared's recommendation, and that Jared picked him merely because he liked the title of Navarro's book Death by China, which he had not read.
That is precious. Maybe he learned it here by watching how we speak about fellow citizens and political leaders.....?

Not that you are wrong, it was stupid, but glass houses and stones something something.
I am trying to follow this. I really am. It's so short that I feel I should be able to parse it, but I can't.

Anyone?
It might be our fault that Trump is a juvenile dickhead.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by GreenGoo »

I'll just point out that I said democracy is NOT dead to which our resident troll immediately started refuting the straw man that democracy is dead.

I'm not the most patient person but I think i made it over a decade of listening to this before breaking. Pretty good, imo.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by geezer »

Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:56 am
Skinypupy wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:27 am
Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:55 am Mostly thanks to the left making dire predictions and seeing them fail to materialize.
Yet.

Not that I would expect there to be a single iota of accountability from the GOP if/when they do.

About the same chance as there would be of Democrats giving him a little credit if the economy stays good.
Congratulations for (so far) not tanking the (second) best economy of my adult years and continuing the gains that had already been trending for quite awhile? Sure. Whatever. Good job, I guess? Now this is wholly anecdotal, but I saw a lot more real gains (personally) in the Clinton boom than this recovery. Housing, education, and food inflation have been brutal this time around (feel free to blame quantitative easing under Bush & Obama - I won't argue) even though the actual "inflation" number has been consistently low. That's a flaw that Republicans loved to talk about up until two years ago, but are no strangely silent on. Weird, huh?
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip »

GreenGoo wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:42 pm I'll just point out that I said democracy is NOT dead to which our resident troll immediately started refuting the straw man that democracy is dead.

I'm not the most patient person but I think i made it over a decade of listening to this before breaking. Pretty good, imo.
You said he was trying to kill it. Unless he has some way of taking away the vote he has no ability to do it. Even if Trump WAS Hitler the POTUS hasn't the power or authority to "kill" democracy. So suggesting he is trying to kill it is just hyperbole.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by GreenGoo »

Geezus Christ.

Tell me in detail which economic policies are responsible for the current state of the economy and then address the short term benefits versus the long term deficits caused by those policies.

I can make my car go fast by dumping a bunch of chemicals in the engine. Who cares that it will seize up and be completely ruined tomorrow.

And that doesn't even touch on the 8 years of hard work recovering from the last economy ruining president, at the beginning of which we laughed about how the next administration would try to take all the credit for it.

God things have gotten predictable.

If you think I'm contradicting myself, I'm not. Economies are complicated. No single factor is responsible for any particular snapshot of the economy.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip »

geezer wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:49 pm
Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:56 am
Skinypupy wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:27 am
Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:55 am Mostly thanks to the left making dire predictions and seeing them fail to materialize.
Yet.

Not that I would expect there to be a single iota of accountability from the GOP if/when they do.

About the same chance as there would be of Democrats giving him a little credit if the economy stays good.
Congratulations for (so far) not tanking the (second) best economy of my adult years and continuing the gains that had already been trending for quite awhile? Sure. Whatever. Good job, I guess? Now this is wholly anecdotal, but I saw a lot more real gains (personally) in the Clinton boom than this recovery. Housing, education, and food inflation have been brutal this time around (feel free to blame quantitative easing under Bush & Obama - I won't argue) even though the actual "inflation" number has been consistently low. That's a flaw that Republicans loved to talk about up until two years ago, but are no strangely silent on. Weird, huh?
I've always said that inflation was bound to go up the minute the fed stopped holding interest rates down. They have and it is coming up. We will still outperform it I believe but I acknowledge it will be more difficult because at some point the inflation that was being hidden by fed action would come home to roost.

http://www.steadystate.org/where-does-inflation-hide/
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by GreenGoo »

Democracy is more than a vote, just ask Putin.

Rip, I think you're dishonest. A liar when it suits you but mostly just constantly disingenuous.

I won't be engaging you any longer but I will be constantly criticizing the things you say. After over a decade of dealing with your crap and even advocating for you at times, I feel that's pretty fair and a reasonable response to your behaviour.
Last edited by GreenGoo on Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by GreenGoo »

Edit:. Moved into my previous post.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip »

GreenGoo wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:01 pm Geezus Christ.

Tell me in detail which economic policies are responsible for the current state of the economy and then address the short term benefits versus the long term deficits caused by those policies.

I can make my car go fast by dumping a bunch of chemicals in the engine. Who cares that it will seize up and be completely ruined tomorrow.

And that doesn't even touch on the 8 years of hard work recovering from the last economy ruining president, at the beginning of which we laughed about how the next administration would try to take all the credit for it.

God things have gotten predictable.

If you think I'm contradicting myself, I'm not. Economies are complicated. No single factor is responsible for any particular snapshot of the economy.
I'd rather wait till we are past the Obama term enough that the Obama made it happen baloney can be put to rest. We aren't far enough removed for you guys to not lean on that. The only pertinent thing right now is that if is still good come midterm time (and I think it will be) the blue wave is going to face one heck of an uphill battle. Whether it is caused by Trump or is caused by other factors is irrelevant. Perception is everything and he and the party will get credit enough to hold onto power until the end of his 1st term, and make the chances of him winning another far greater.

As far as how his trade battles affect the economy as you said it is a complicated thing and none of us know for sure because the battles are still being fought. Only after the dust settles will a reasonable assessment even be feasible.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip »

GreenGoo wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:10 pm Democracy is more than a vote, just ask Putin.

Rip, I think you're dishonest. A liar when it suits you but mostly just constantly disingenuous.

I won't be engaging you any longer but I will be constantly criticizing the things you say. After over a decade of dealing with your crap and even advocating for you at times, I feel that's pretty fair and a reasonable response to your behaviour.
Democracy is a vote.

This is the same tired argument that suggests money buys elections. That has been proven to be hogwash, mountains of money has lost many elections recently. Likewise Putin's crap is the same kind of stuff dark money is used for which as I noted has been proven to not equate to winning. Only one thing directly equates to winning and that is votes. Period. As long as we have votes and no one is forced to vote a certain way, then we have democracy. Just because people don't vote the way you think they should doesn't mean democracy is broken.

I could care less whether you engage me or not. C'est la vie!
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by GreenGoo »

Anyone who thinks simply having a vote defines democracy is a moron. Only a moron, liar or someone who is constantly disingenuous would suggest otherwise.

I probably should have lead with Kim Jong-un in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (you know it's democratic, it has the word right in the title! Plus all the voting!) because Putin is too big a bugaboo for some people to think straight.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip »

GreenGoo wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:28 pm Anyone who thinks simply having a vote defines democracy is a moron. Only a moron, liar or someone who is constantly disingenuous would suggest otherwise.

I probably should have lead with Kim Jong-un in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (you know it's democratic, it has the word right in the title! Plus all the voting!) because Putin is too big a bugaboo for some people to think straight.
Those are not free will votes. There are real repercussions for anyone who fails to vote the right way. No one in the US is punished for how they vote. If there are any repercussions they are for the unfortunate souls who admit to voting Republican, especially in the most recent election.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by GreenGoo »

You want to engage on a point by point basis, but I told you I'm not doing that.

Russian votes are free will votes.

Democracy is more than a vote. Even free will votes.

I'm not interested in dragging someone kicking and screaming to a conclusion that they've been taught and understood since kindergarten but refuse to acknowledge it now because of some weird political point sparring match.

Mr. Liar Disengenuous pants.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Kraken »

Rip wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:54 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:42 pm I'll just point out that I said democracy is NOT dead to which our resident troll immediately started refuting the straw man that democracy is dead.

I'm not the most patient person but I think i made it over a decade of listening to this before breaking. Pretty good, imo.
You said he was trying to kill it. Unless he has some way of taking away the vote he has no ability to do it. Even if Trump WAS Hitler the POTUS hasn't the power or authority to "kill" democracy. So suggesting he is trying to kill it is just hyperbole.
Iran has elections. Russians have the vote. One needn't abolish voting to kill democracy...merely fine-tuning elections will do. We will see in November how much faith Americans have in our election returns. I hope it's a clean process that inspires confidence, whatever the results, but I suspect that our president will conjure up imaginary busloads of illegal voters where he doesn't like the results, and I expect enough valid reports of hacks to raise suspicions of tampering.

As for the economy, presidents don't pull its strings, but if we insist on blaming them when things go bad then we owe them some credit when things are good. Bush inherited a balanced budget and a solid economy and left flaming wreckage. Obama inherited that wreckage, patched it back together, and nurtured a slow but accelerating expansion. Trump hasn't screwed up that trajectory yet, so Yay Trump.

Obviously those presidents didn't wreak their damage or work their magic single-handedly, but they did shape larger policies that mattered. I could be persuaded that Trump has goosed the expansion along if there were evidence that Trump has played a major role in formulating actual economic policy; from where I sit, his personal economy is his main concern. But show me solid evidence that Trump has shaped tax and spending bills and shepherded them through the process, and I'll give him credit or blame for the state of the economy at the end of his term.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip »

GreenGoo wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:18 pm You want to engage on a point by point basis, but I told you I'm not doing that.

Russian votes are free will votes.

Democracy is more than a vote. Even free will votes.

I'm not interested in dragging someone kicking and screaming to a conclusion that they've been taught and understood since kindergarten but refuse to acknowledge it now because of some weird political point sparring match.

Mr. Liar Disengenuous pants.
Once again showing you haven't got a clue.
He’ll be voting in the village on Sunday, he says. Who for? “Well, there has only ever been one man on the ballot paper.
Tucked away from the other side of the Kremlin, however, is the alien spaceship of Alexei Navalny’s local headquarters. The Putin critic might have been controversially barred from these elections, but his band of merry men – kids, to be more exact – continue to campaign on his behalf. The activists have redecorated the small hut in cool turquoise and Ikea white, with posters of their hero dotted around.
Since then, their lives have been subject to the best of Novgorod hospitality: constant surveillance, intimidation and the occasional arrest. But their enthusiasm hasn’t waned, they insist.
Those who manage to fall into the inner circle can expect excellent salaries: “Putin has security guards there on 80,000 roubles, and all for doing nothing. You live a plush life with that kind of cash.”

Ivanov earns less than half that, while working punishing 12-hour shifts. But, for a while, he too was part of the privileged presidential set-up, labouring as a builder on Putin’s estate.
Putin’s definitive election victory in 2012, and the merciless crackdown that followed, put paid to Russia’s nascent protest movement. With increased stakes on dissent, there were few serious challenges to the President’s rule during his third term.
None of the drivers say they have any inclination or intention to vote.

“Elections? Give me a break!” says Sergei. “The pensioners will go to vote because they have nothing else to do. But the ordinary people are pissed off.
“Nothing will change come Sunday,” she says. “Putin’s already stolen all that he can, and maybe he’ll stop now. But even if he goes, things will just get worse.”

A few miles down the road, Marina is selling anti-freeze at 100 roubles a bottle. Her wage is generous in comparison – 800 roubles a day.

“It’s about surviving in these parts,” she says. “People do what they have always done – get by. Nothing has changed in centuries, only the asphalt. The trees are where they have always been, and the marshes, villages, too. Everything is in ruins.”

“Tell me what exactly there is to vote for?” she says.
We speak to two students of the local nursing institute, Olga and Snezhana, 19. Both have come to the town from a village in Tver region. They aren’t keen to tell us their surnames, they say, for fear of reprisals after speaking to a foreign journalist: “We’re not enemies of the nation, you understand, we don’t want people to be searching for us.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 60796.html
International and opposition media would later report that many of those present were put under pressure to attend. It seems "Team Putin," as the organizers in Luzhniki christened themselves, didn't want to leave the optics to chance at their only campaign stop.
Perhaps unsurprisingly for a former KGB officer, Putin is a man who values his privacy and strictly controls what information reaches the public.
His complete domination of Russian political life has left little room for a legitimate opposition to develop, says Siegert. "No one can really imagine what will come after Putin. That's an integral part of Putin's political strategy, control over the political field. Control that prohibits any possible competition. That's why so many people see themselves forced to choose between Putin and chaos or Putin and humiliation."
http://www.dw.com/en/russian-election-c ... a-42936343
The vote was tainted by widespread reports of ballot-box stuffing and forced voting, but the complaints will likely do little to undermine Putin. The Russian leader's popularity remains high despite his suppression of dissent and reproach from the West over Russia's increasingly aggressive stance in world affairs and alleged interference in the 2016 U.S. election.
Put had faced seven minor candidates on the ballot. His most vehement foe, anti-corruption campaigner Alexei Navalny, was rejected as a presidential candidate because he was convicted of fraud in a case widely regarded as politically motivated. Navalny and his supporters had called for an election boycott but the extent of its success could not immediately be gauged.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-worl ... sian-vote/
Opposition leader Alexei Navalny, who was barred from running after organizing nationwide anti-government protests, had called for a boycott of the election and vigorous vote monitoring to uncover any irregularities. But in a country dominated by state media that have helped generate a loyal following, the Putin juggernaut plowed over any obstacles, including accusations of ballot stuffing and other violations.
Like other large Russian cities, Yekaterinburg, with a population of 1.4 million, is more supportive of opposition candidates. But in multiple interviews across the country, voters voiced a combination of anxiety and frustration over the lack alternatives to Putin.
"You can't talk about Putin's level of support, but the level of fear," said Pavel Sergienya, 35, the founder of an independent trade union. "People are afraid to openly express their opinion except in their kitchens, just like in the Soviet Union."

Andrei Antropov is an exception. The 36-year-old volunteer for opposition leader Navalny was called in by the police three days before the election for a "conversation" with criminal investigators.

"I can't rule out that there will be consequences for me at work, but I'm going to continue my activism," said Antropov, a manager for a telecommunications company.
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/ ... s-in-power

Yep, totally free will elections.

:roll:
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by GreenGoo »

You can't possibly be this slow.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Zarathud »

From defending Trump to defending Putin.

Reagan would weep.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Holman »



link

Now this can't possibly be true because we know Trump is the best and greatest at engaging with complex topics and getting to mutual agreement with allies. FAKE NEWS.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip »

Zarathud wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:34 am From defending Trump to defending Putin.

Reagan would weep.
Since when is pointing out that Russian elections are a farce defending Putin?
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Smoove_B »

Opinion piece in the NYT:
The alliance between the United States and Western Europe has accomplished great things. It won two world wars in the first half of the 20th century. Then it expanded to include its former enemies and went on to win the Cold War, help spread democracy and build the highest living standards the world has ever known.

President Trump is trying to destroy that alliance.

...

While Trudeau and other historical allies get disdain, Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-un and various aspiring authoritarians are bathed in praise. Trump and his aides have promoted far-right politicians in Germany and elsewhere. In Quebec, he made excuses for Russia’s annexation of Crimea and argued that Russia should be readmitted to the G-7. Jay Nordlinger, the conservative writer, asked, “Why is he talking like an RT host?” — RT being Russia Today, a government-funded television network.

...

Maybe it’s ideological, and he prefers Putin-style authoritarianism to democracy. Or maybe he has no grand strategy and Putin really does have some compromising information. Or maybe Trump just likes being against what every other modern American president was for.

Whatever the reason, his behavior requires a response that’s as serious as the threat. As the political scientist Brendan Nyhan pointed out, this past weekend felt like a turning point: “The Western alliance and the global trading system are coming under the same intense strain that Trump has created for our domestic institutions.”
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Trump Trade War

Post by Zarathud »

Rip wrote:
Zarathud wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:34 am From defending Trump to defending Putin.

Reagan would weep.
Since when is pointing out that Russian elections are a farce defending Putin?
The article focuses on "no alternative to Putin" which is the same argument you make in supporting Trump. Of course, you don't see that.

Or that our anti-Trump anger is the only thing that could prevent the US from becoming a farce like Russia. But you know we should stop because we're big meanies.

Image
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip »

Zarathud wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:21 am
Rip wrote:
Zarathud wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:34 am From defending Trump to defending Putin.

Reagan would weep.
Since when is pointing out that Russian elections are a farce defending Putin?
The article focuses on "no alternative to Putin" which is the same argument you make in supporting Trump. Of course, you don't see that.

Or that our anti-Trump anger is the only thing that could prevent the US from becoming a farce like Russia. But you know we should stop because we're big meanies.

Image
Except it makes that case by pointing out that Putin won't allow any reasonable alternative and viciously goes after anyone who tries. Not with mean words but with poison, prison, or assisted suicides from the tops of buildings. Elections in Russia are just a show to give an appearance of choice where there is none. Russian elections are no more free than ones in Iran.
Many 3rd World dictatorships and former Warsaw Pact nations held show elections in which results predictably show that nearly 100% of all eligible voters vote and that nearly 100% of those eligible voters vote for the prescribed (often only) list of candidates for office or for referendums that favour the Party in power irrespective of economic conditions and the cruelties of the government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _elections
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