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Trump Trade War

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:11 pm

Pyperkub wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:50 pm
$iljanus wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:38 pm
Pyperkub wrote:Who didn't see this coming in our retreat ceding leadership of World Trade?
In meetings in Brussels, Berlin and Beijing, senior Chinese officials, including Vice Premier Liu He and the Chinese government’s top diplomat, State Councillor Wang Yi, have proposed an alliance between the two economic powers and offered to open more of the Chinese market in a gesture of goodwill.
But the European Union, the world’s largest trading bloc, has rejected the idea of allying with Beijing against Washington, five EU officials and diplomats told Reuters, ahead of a Sino-European summit in Beijing on July 16-17.
The EU isn't interested in unduly angering the Mangerine...for the moment. But I suspect this is just the opening offer on the table and the EU is just biding its time.
Tell that to Chancellor Merkel. As long as the GOP can win elections as a batshit insane party, we're going to be on International Double-Secret probation, constantly losing influence, and begging to get it back.

War with North Korea or Iran? Nah, you fooled us last time.

Trade agreement to limit Chinese influence in the Pacific? Nope, you slapped us, your allies, with tariffs and demanded concessions.

International Climate Change agreement? Nah, you declined to commit, and then backed out.

NATO? WTO? Well, we're probably better off without the insane Americans.

America, you are on your own. We thought you were on the right path when Obama took over, but then you backslid even further. We want nothing to do with any of your so-called commitments.
Yea, good luck with that NATO thing. Have you looked at EU troop/arms levels lately? Unless they want to be the next Crimea/Ukraine the last thing they want is to have us not bound to defend them. If you think the US has limited options in threatening Russia look at the EU without US backup.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Daehawk » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:25 pm

Have we won yet? Is the world our's?
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Pyperkub » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:38 pm

Rip wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:11 pm
Pyperkub wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:50 pm
$iljanus wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:38 pm
Pyperkub wrote:Who didn't see this coming in our retreat ceding leadership of World Trade?
In meetings in Brussels, Berlin and Beijing, senior Chinese officials, including Vice Premier Liu He and the Chinese government’s top diplomat, State Councillor Wang Yi, have proposed an alliance between the two economic powers and offered to open more of the Chinese market in a gesture of goodwill.
But the European Union, the world’s largest trading bloc, has rejected the idea of allying with Beijing against Washington, five EU officials and diplomats told Reuters, ahead of a Sino-European summit in Beijing on July 16-17.
The EU isn't interested in unduly angering the Mangerine...for the moment. But I suspect this is just the opening offer on the table and the EU is just biding its time.
Tell that to Chancellor Merkel. As long as the GOP can win elections as a batshit insane party, we're going to be on International Double-Secret probation, constantly losing influence, and begging to get it back.

War with North Korea or Iran? Nah, you fooled us last time.

Trade agreement to limit Chinese influence in the Pacific? Nope, you slapped us, your allies, with tariffs and demanded concessions.

International Climate Change agreement? Nah, you declined to commit, and then backed out.

NATO? WTO? Well, we're probably better off without the insane Americans.

America, you are on your own. We thought you were on the right path when Obama took over, but then you backslid even further. We want nothing to do with any of your so-called commitments.
Yea, good luck with that NATO thing. Have you looked at EU troop/arms levels lately? Unless they want to be the next Crimea/Ukraine the last thing they want is to have us not bound to defend them. If you think the US has limited options in threatening Russia look at the EU without US backup.
At this point I don't think they trust us to uphold our current obligations, regardless of the Treaty. At least, trust us as much as they have over the past 69+ years, given Trump.

I see an EU military buildup coming.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Holman » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:44 pm

I was Reagan Youth before my politics matured, but important things that mattered to me then still matter to me now.

Watching American conservatives bend over to dump on NATO and suck Putin's dick is one of the saddest experiences of the Trump era.

It would be merely pathetic if it weren't such an infuriating betrayal.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Pyperkub wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:38 pm
Rip wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:11 pm
Pyperkub wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:50 pm
$iljanus wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:38 pm
Pyperkub wrote:Who didn't see this coming in our retreat ceding leadership of World Trade?
In meetings in Brussels, Berlin and Beijing, senior Chinese officials, including Vice Premier Liu He and the Chinese government’s top diplomat, State Councillor Wang Yi, have proposed an alliance between the two economic powers and offered to open more of the Chinese market in a gesture of goodwill.
But the European Union, the world’s largest trading bloc, has rejected the idea of allying with Beijing against Washington, five EU officials and diplomats told Reuters, ahead of a Sino-European summit in Beijing on July 16-17.
The EU isn't interested in unduly angering the Mangerine...for the moment. But I suspect this is just the opening offer on the table and the EU is just biding its time.
Tell that to Chancellor Merkel. As long as the GOP can win elections as a batshit insane party, we're going to be on International Double-Secret probation, constantly losing influence, and begging to get it back.

War with North Korea or Iran? Nah, you fooled us last time.

Trade agreement to limit Chinese influence in the Pacific? Nope, you slapped us, your allies, with tariffs and demanded concessions.

International Climate Change agreement? Nah, you declined to commit, and then backed out.

NATO? WTO? Well, we're probably better off without the insane Americans.

America, you are on your own. We thought you were on the right path when Obama took over, but then you backslid even further. We want nothing to do with any of your so-called commitments.
Yea, good luck with that NATO thing. Have you looked at EU troop/arms levels lately? Unless they want to be the next Crimea/Ukraine the last thing they want is to have us not bound to defend them. If you think the US has limited options in threatening Russia look at the EU without US backup.
At this point I don't think they trust us to uphold our current obligations, regardless of the Treaty. At least, trust us as much as they have over the past 69+ years, given Trump.

I see an EU military buildup coming.
Good for them if they do, but I remain skeptical.

When you get down to it only 4 European countries equal Ukraine's military capability (and we have seen how that has worked out for them). First Germany and Italy. They are about equal and frankly would probably be bettered by Turkey, Japan, or SK. So not much of a threat to anyone not bordered with them.

The powerhouses militarily of the EU would be Britain and France. Which again are about equal in military power. Both of them together could be defeated by any of the big three with half their forces. So a factor, but not all that much of one. Most of the military power in the world is brought by three countries by a wide margin.

They would certainly be wise to build up, just not certain they can afford enough to make much of a difference.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:12 pm

Once they have access to that sweet, sweet China market things will probably start looking up for them.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:46 pm

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6679473/t ... ears-cost/
THERESA May has sparked navy fears of fresh cuts to Britain’s submarine fleet after she questioned their big annual bill.

During a stormy meeting with defence bosses two weeks ago, the PM highlighted the vessels’ £4bn a year budget, and demanded to know if it could be reduced.
The remarks to Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson and Chief of Defence Staff General Sir Nick Carter left them stunned, senior sources have revealed.

The Royal Navy currently operates seven attack submarines, and four Vanguard class underwater boats that carry Britain’s Trident nuclear deterrent.

The underwater fleet is at its smallest in decades.

In 1982 at the height of the Cold War, the navy had 31 submarines.

Yea, they totally sound interested in increasing defense spending.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Holman » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:51 pm

:dance:

Good news for Trump and his new best comrades!
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by hepcat » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:55 pm

Of course this is news Rip would celebrate. Anything to hasten our annexation by Russia! :horse:
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:16 pm

Having been following UK politics for several years now, this only means something if you care about submarines with no context whatsoever. Who do we know that likes submarines but hates context?

Here's the leader of the USA questioning the costs of the F35, stating the costs are spiraling out of control.
President wrote: WASHINGTON — President-elect Donald J. Trump said on Monday that the cost of building the military’s next-generation fighter jet, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, had spiraled “out of control,” and he vowed to save billions of dollars on military programs once he enters office next month.
I'm not sure on etiquette. Is this where the emoticon goes?

:dance:

I'm sure this signifies something, but what? I sure hope the US still has the means to defend itself at the end of all this cost cutting.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Kraken » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:17 pm

Maybe you have to be a certain age to get this, but my WW2-era parents would have been flabbergasted at an American president urging Germany and Japan to rearm.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Rip » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:00 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:16 pm
Having been following UK politics for several years now, this only means something if you care about submarines with no context whatsoever. Who do we know that likes submarines but hates context?

Here's the leader of the USA questioning the costs of the F35, stating the costs are spiraling out of control.
President wrote: WASHINGTON — President-elect Donald J. Trump said on Monday that the cost of building the military’s next-generation fighter jet, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, had spiraled “out of control,” and he vowed to save billions of dollars on military programs once he enters office next month.
I'm not sure on etiquette. Is this where the emoticon goes?

:dance:

I'm sure this signifies something, but what? I sure hope the US still has the means to defend itself at the end of all this cost cutting.
Well one would have to wonder about wanting to cut your sub force when you are already down to about a third of what you had in 82. During that time the US dropped a little from 100 to a little under 80. Just another area where all the submarines of the EU pale when compared to US, Russia, China.

If anyone needs a good sub force it is England.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:11 am

I guess I never can quite understand what your points are. Here it seems to be that a prime minister questioning a large line item on a budget makes emoticons dance? Or something?

Don't bother to answer, it's just going to be some fevered dream nonsense anyway.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by gbasden » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:01 am

hepcat wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:55 pm
Of course this is news Rip would celebrate. Anything to hasten our annexation by Russia! :horse:
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Holman » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:01 am

Maybe the UK would be able to increase defense spending if Brexit weren't squeezing the brakes on their economy?
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Paingod » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:06 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:11 am
I guess I never can quite understand what your points are. Here it seems to be that a prime minister questioning a large line item on a budget makes emoticons dance? Or something?

Don't bother to answer, it's just going to be some fevered dream nonsense anyway.
If you don't really have anything to say, but feel smug because you think you're better than him, the appropriate emoticon is:

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:24 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:Mark you calendars.

Bloomberg
The first wave of 25 percent tariffs will hit $34 billion in goods and take effect July 6, with another $16 billion still to be reviewed, the U.S. Trade Representative said in a separate statement.
:popcorn:
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Skinypupy » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:05 pm

Thing is, none of it matters to his supporters. Even when it directly affects them and their livelihood.
Jimmie Coffer, a machine programmer at the nation’s largest nail-making plant, voted for Donald Trump partly because he was confident he would bring manufacturing jobs back to America.

So the 39-year-old factory worker was shocked last month when 60 of his co-workers were laid off after the Trump administration imposed a 25% tariff on the steel his company imports from Mexico. Now, as his bosses cut back hours and warn they may have to let 200 more workers go in the coming weeks, he worries he may lose his job as a result of the president’s policies.

But Coffer is still gung-ho about Trump.

“I support him 100%,” he said last week. “In fact, I’d like to shake his hand. He’s doing a great job.”
Why yes, Mr. Leopard. I'd be perfectly happy if you ate my face!
Across Poplar Bluff, a struggling town of 17,000 in a remote pocket of southeast Missouri, many residents are reluctant to criticize Trump as they grapple with the prospect that their community could be one of the trade war’s first casualties.

“Most workers are behind Trump, no matter what,” said Diane Brogdon, 54, a machine operator who has worked for the company for 12 years.
It's what we get, working with them damn Mexicans.
Already, other businesses in Missouri are feeling the ripple effects of Mid Continent’s slowdown. A local packaging company that provides boxes for the nail plant announced last week it had laid off four temporary employees.

Conspiracy theories and rumors also have spread. Some locals theorize the company’s Mexican owners have long planned to relocate south of the border and are using the tariffs as an excuse to finally leave. (Company officials do not rule out relocating to Mexico — where they could buy steel and export the finished nails back to the U.S. without tariffs — but insist they are committed to remaining in Poplar Bluff.)

“This has nothing to do with tariffs — or Trump,” Mark Orton, the owner of Bluff Barber Shop, said as he dabbed shaving foam on a customer’s face. “It’s smoke and mirrors. This Mexican company is just trying to blame Trump.”

His client, a red-headed factory worker who declined to give his name, blamed politicians and newspapers for “banging on” Trump.

“They can’t say anything nice about him,” he griped. “If Trump ran into a burning building to pull out children, they’d say he’s hurting firefighters.”
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by YellowKing » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:59 pm

The only thing harder than losing your job is admitting you're a fucking idiot who voted for the worst President in modern history.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by LordMortis » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:16 pm

YellowKing wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:59 pm
The only thing harder than losing your job is admitting you're a fucking idiot who voted for the worst President in modern history.
They think they're being patriots and they will shift their blame to the cultural downfall of the country. You know how you accidentally read the comments sometimes? There's the whole III% AP thing going on and when you start to delve in, it's turns out membership in its many form and its ilk went crazy in.... 2008.... Where their mission was to patriotically protect the people from an over reaching government. In 2016 all of these non affiliated groups with similar names went on to support this government as patriots.

I don't know where admitting being wrong has room to enter this equation.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Pyperkub » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:20 pm

Kraken wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:17 pm
Maybe you have to be a certain age to get this, but my WW2-era parents would have been flabbergasted at an American president urging Germany and Japan to rearm.
Yeah, I think there are probably a lot of folks in the EU concerned about this as well.

Additionally, investing in a large(r) military increases the likelihood it will be used. The world economy (and people) is far better served with the butter portion of the guns or butter debate.
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:30 pm

Pyperkub wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:20 pm
Kraken wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:17 pm
Maybe you have to be a certain age to get this, but my WW2-era parents would have been flabbergasted at an American president urging Germany and Japan to rearm.
Yeah, I think there are probably a lot of folks in the EU concerned about this as well.

Additionally, investing in a large(r) military increases the likelihood it will be used. The world economy (and people) is far better served with the butter portion of the guns or butter debate.
Less butter, more niche low yield nukes!

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:29 am

Also, off the books "tariff":

The Chinese embassy in Washington has issued a warning to its citizens traveling to the United States as trade tensions intensify between the two countries.

Chinese tourists were warned of dangers such as costly medical bills, the possibility of gun violence and robberies, seizures by customs agents and natural disasters.

"Public security in the United States is not good," said an embassy statement published last week. "Cases of shootings, robberies, and theft are frequent."
Right at the start of peak tourist season here.

Next up, convince Chinese consumers to Buy Chinese.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by gilraen » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:08 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:29 am
Also, off the books "tariff":

The Chinese embassy in Washington has issued a warning to its citizens traveling to the United States as trade tensions intensify between the two countries.

Chinese tourists were warned of dangers such as costly medical bills, the possibility of gun violence and robberies, seizures by customs agents and natural disasters.

"Public security in the United States is not good," said an embassy statement published last week. "Cases of shootings, robberies, and theft are frequent."
Right at the start of peak tourist season here.

Next up, convince Chinese consumers to Buy Chinese.
In all fairness, Canada, New Zealand, European countries have been issuing safety-related travel advisories to the U.S. for months - in some cases since before Trump took office.

And they all should probably start warning their tourists about medical bills...

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:23 am

Canada's advisory threat level for the US is: "Take normal precautions." Same as our advisory for them. Issuing advisories is standard. Saying things like "Public security in the United States is not good" is a clear deterrent.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Paingod » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:43 am

YellowKing wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:59 pm
The only thing harder than losing your job is admitting you're a fucking idiot who voted for the worst President in modern history.
Do you really think there was a worse US president in history? Nevermind modern?
...a survey of 170 presidential historians puts Trump in dead last place – behind even James Buchanan, whom many historians blame for failing to stop the Civil War.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Carpet_pissr » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:39 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:29 am
Also, off the books "tariff":

The Chinese embassy in Washington has issued a warning to its citizens traveling to the United States as trade tensions intensify between the two countries.

Chinese tourists were warned of dangers such as costly medical bills, the possibility of gun violence and robberies, seizures by customs agents and natural disasters.

"Public security in the United States is not good," said an embassy statement published last week. "Cases of shootings, robberies, and theft are frequent."
Right at the start of peak tourist season here.

Next up, convince Chinese consumers to Buy Chinese.
Not that it matters, but the US State Dept has done this for decades, i.e use tourist warnings as political leverage (punishment/reward) for many countries (mostly developing).

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by malchior » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:55 pm

Paingod wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:43 am
YellowKing wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:59 pm
The only thing harder than losing your job is admitting you're a fucking idiot who voted for the worst President in modern history.
Do you really think there was a worse US president in history? Nevermind modern?
...a survey of 170 presidential historians puts Trump in dead last place – behind even James Buchanan, whom many historians blame for failing to stop the Civil War.
There is no doubt in my mind at this point. His major failure is his incoherence. It is impossible to govern if you can't put forth a policy that sticks. It causes chaos. And Trump is pure chaos. He is likely going to go down in history as one of the worst leaders in world history. Worst defined as lacking almost any skills for the job. If this was EU4, his diplomacy, administrative. and military skills would all be 0 for lack of negative values. He is a complete and utter disaster as a President.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Paingod » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:07 pm

malchior wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:55 pm
There is no doubt in my mind at this point. His major failure is his incoherence. It is impossible to govern if you can't put forth a policy that sticks. It causes chaos. And Trump is pure chaos.
And yet, despite it all, his people adore him because he appeals to their inner demons and is normalizing them. Nevermind allies and economics, we're going to be generations in recovery as he's setting us back decades in social evolution.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Holman » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:25 pm

Paingod wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:07 pm
malchior wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:55 pm
There is no doubt in my mind at this point. His major failure is his incoherence. It is impossible to govern if you can't put forth a policy that sticks. It causes chaos. And Trump is pure chaos.
And yet, despite it all, his people adore him because he appeals to their inner demons and is normalizing them. Nevermind allies and economics, we're going to be generations in recovery as he's setting us back decades in social evolution.
Yep. And we're not getting a reset. When Trump is finished, even if he is impeached, there will be plenty of bigot authoritarians lining up to exploit what he normalized.

Most of them will be smarter than Trump.
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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Kraken » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:13 pm

One cannot fairly rank a presidency until it is over, ideally decades after. Historians know that better than anyone, but of course we're all invested in the moment. Trump has a serious shot at the Worst Ever brass ring -- he might even turn out to be our last president, which would be a unique achievement -- but in terms of objective results, most of his damage has yet to manifest itself. Even among the small set of presidents in my lifetime (Eisenhower onward), he can't match the flaming wreckage that Bush II left behind. Go ahead and hate the man for all the reasons he keeps giving us, but hold off on the hyperbole.

At the very least, I think he'll go down in history as the most corrupt president ever.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:23 pm

Flaming wreckage of Bush II, but lay off the hyperbole?

Bush II did some damage, even significant damage in some areas. But flaming wreckage? The EPA is currently flaming wreckage. A lot of the economic damage of the Bush II era would have existed no matter the president, although waging a war without paying for it obviously hurt.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Kraken » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:39 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:23 pm
Flaming wreckage of Bush II, but lay off the hyperbole?

Bush II did some damage, even significant damage in some areas. But flaming wreckage? The EPA is currently flaming wreckage. A lot of the economic damage of the Bush II era would have existed no matter the president, although waging a war without paying for it obviously hurt.
Bush inherited a budget in surplus and a nation at peace. He left behind two wars, record deficits, and the worst economic crisis since the Depression. Regardless of how much of that you attribute to him personally, "flaming wreckage" is hardly hyperbole.

Changing the Environmental Protection Agency to the Environmental Pillage Agency is not in the same league. You have to judge by "What did this president inherit, and what did he leave behind?" Trump inherited a stable if lackluster situation on most fronts. We don't know yet what he'll leave behind. It certainly won't be pretty. It might be even surpass Bush for badness. But we aren't there yet.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:42 pm

One war was justified. Bush left the nation in a very poor position to handle the 2008 meltdown, but he didn't cause it. The economy is not the same as government debt.

I'm not addressing Bush vs. Drumpf, I'm addressing flaming wreckage of Bush II. My sole point of the EPA is that it *is* flaming wreckage, not that it's worst president in history flaming wreckage.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Kraken » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:53 pm

Trump probably has six more years to reap what he's already sowed, and to keep on sowing more nettles. Odds are pretty good that he'll ultimately live up to the historians' early opinion of his worst-ever presidency, especially if Congress remains neutered. But trying to imagine what awfulness is yet to come is too depressing, so I'm not going to do it.

To bend this back on topic, his trade war might bring the economic boom to a premature end. But there's also a chance that it will merely prevent the economy from overheating and thereby extend the expansion. As well as a chance that he'll simply drop it after extorting enough concessions from our trading partners to crow about his mad negotiating skills. It's hard to see how far this will go, but I doubt that it's going to go full Smoot-Hawley.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:36 pm

If he manages to extort trade concessions from the US's allies, then trade wars are easy to win and he will have won one.

Let's watch.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by malchior » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:45 am

Kraken wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:13 pm
One cannot fairly rank a presidency until it is over, ideally decades after. Historians know that better than anyone, but of course we're all invested in the moment. Trump has a serious shot at the Worst Ever brass ring -- he might even turn out to be our last president, which would be a unique achievement -- but in terms of objective results, most of his damage has yet to manifest itself. Even among the small set of presidents in my lifetime (Eisenhower onward), he can't match the flaming wreckage that Bush II left behind. Go ahead and hate the man for all the reasons he keeps giving us, but hold off on the hyperbole.

At the very least, I think he'll go down in history as the most corrupt president ever.
I'd normally agree but it is fairly easy to postulate the lasting damage of this Presidency and also to gauge how far outside the norm it is. He has spent 2 years assaulting the Western alliance. The Western alliance!. We spent 70+ years building that up and maintaining it. It has brought a period of stability and peace that has never been accomplished in world history. There is likely no comparison in history of any leader tearing down their "empires" greatest strategic accomplishment in return for nothing. This isn't some blunder - it is his intentional policy! We built a trade regime that maintains us as the greatest economic power in the world. Again a monumental strategic accomplishment and he is attacking it. Sure it has problems but he is taking positions to address imbalances in a way that any intelligent person would realize only brings risk with no chance of reward.

On top, he divides his people intentionally. To maintain his own power. Every time he is given a chance to try to unite us his instinct is to drive a wedge in. I think in that light historians are well positioned to step back and see that this is so far out of the norm that he is already the worst. Does anyone honestly think he is going to turn this around? How? What could he do?

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Kraken » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:20 pm

I agree with all of that. However, the harm is not tangible yet. He attacks the alliance but hasn't broken with it yet. He's spoiling trade relationships, but the economy keeps growing and markets haven't tanked yet. He's dismantling the EPA, but we're not strip mining in Yellowstone yet. He divides people and panders only to his own voters, but civil war hasn't started yet. He attacks democratic norms and tries to subvert the electoral process, but he's not a dictator yet.

All of these things and more might come to pass. Probably will, with countervailing forces in perpetual disarray. But he can't wear the "Worst Ever" crown until they do.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Holman » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:02 pm

Right. "Worst ever" depends on how severe the long-term damage turn out to be.

I think it's clear, though, that he has a lock on "least fit for office."
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Trump Trade War

Post by Kraken » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:45 pm

Holman wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:02 pm
Right. "Worst ever" depends on how severe the long-term damage turn out to be.

I think it's clear, though, that he has a lock on "least fit for office."
No question about that. Possibly "least intelligent" too, insofar as that's measurable.

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One could argue that deliberately dumbing down his speech for the groundlings shows that Trump's smart, given how successful it is...but based on the content of his words I deduce that he's just plain dumb. He has never shown any evidence of nuanced thought.

Attempts to rank presidents by IQ are fun but dubious, IMO.

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