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Immigration Policy

For discussion of religion and politics

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Pyperkub
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Pyperkub » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:20 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:45 pm
Yeah. I mean I can understand that noxiousdog is thinking about the practical impacts of immigration, because as a rule ND isn’t a giant bag of racism.

But I’ve met a lot of people that are anti-illegal immigration, most of whom have no actual interaction with illegals.

I’ll be kind and simply say that as a practical political matter, their objections aren’t based on a careful analysis of the civil engineering challenges.
Some are based upon analysis of the Education and Health Care challenges however. Also other community norms, such as CA allowing Drivers Licenses so that immigrants (legal and illegal) can get car insurance.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:37 pm

I can assure you that their objections to immigration aren’t based on the careful analysis of anything.

Certainly not all anti-immigration folks fit this mold, but it’s a clear majority. Their position is no more complicated than !LikeMe.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Jeff V » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:02 pm

It's not so hard if you marry a citizen. My wife is waiting for her citizenship interview so she can sponsor her mom who in turn will sponsor her sister. We want get sister to attend college here, but my wife wants her to pay her own way and she cannot work if here on a student visa.

I suspect this plan is in jeopardy though and it behooves us to move as swiftly as possible.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:38 pm

but then you have to have sex with people like Jeff V.

*shudder*

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by em2nought » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:44 pm

Yep, I am so racist that I'm planning to live in Colombia, Ecuador, or Thailand in a few years. Racist, racist, racist, I don't know how I live with myself. I prefer brown folks to brain addled demon rats. :wink:

So racist that my best friend is brown, and I helped get him over here. Racist, racist, racist.

Brown girls don't seem to mind sex with me either, it's over pretty quick and I don't haggle over price. :doh:
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:54 pm

em2nought wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:44 pm
Yep, I am so racist that I'm planning to live in Colombia, Ecuador, or Thailand in a few years. Racist, racist, racist, I don't know how I live with myself. I prefer brown folks to brain addled demon rats. :wink:

So racist that my best friend is brown, and I helped get him over here. Racist, racist, racist.

Brown girls don't seem to mind sex with me either, it's over pretty quick and I don't haggle over price. :doh:
a) whatever you do, don't engage the conversation. Just scream "RACISM, NOT IT!" because that helps us better understand your position
b) the problem with traveling to foreign countries claiming that makes you not racist is that that has nothing to do with anything.
c) On the plus side, there is a better than even chance that those countries contain many racists and bigots who don't like white Americans, so you get to see how the other half lives
d) The true test of racism is whether you let your best brown friend use your bathroom. Otherwise, you're just "not a racist" poser.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by em2nought » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:58 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:54 pm

d) The true test of racism is whether you let your best brown friend use your bathroom. Otherwise, you're just "not a racist" poser.
I could take a photo of his long ass hair that's still in my bathtub I guess. :roll:
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by hepcat » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:01 pm

You could just avoid posting stuff that backs up many of the claims you’re constantly trying to tell us are false.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Zarathud » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:16 pm

em2nought wrote:Brown girls don't seem to mind sex with me either, it's over pretty quick and I don't haggle over price. :doh:
This does not help your case as it basically admits your penis or your sexism overrides your racism. :roll:
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:29 pm

It's not like the internet is not filled with racist hate porn. But I'm sure putting your dick in someone qualifies for anti-racism defense.

The bathroom thing is an old stereotype not meant to be taken literally.

I was gonna be snarky about the bathroom thing but that one is just straight up PSA.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:01 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:57 pm
Does the word "respectively" work there? It seems to me that you use respectively when corresponding 2 pairs of things.
Full article enumerates them:
The first was James Davis, who was Secretary of Labor from 1921 to 1930.
To bring his vision to fruition, Davis teamed up with a senator from South Carolina. Coleman Livingston Blease, a Democrat, was “a proud and unreconstructed white supremacist,” UCLA history professor Kelly Lytle Hernández wrote in her 2017 book City of Inmates.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:19 am

Thanks. Between you and Lawboy I am educated.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:19 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:42 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:14 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:09 pm
Fair enough. I'll give it some thought. Given that immigration is not uniform across the states, there is certainly a larger growth stress on certain states than others.
FWIW, as far as I can tell Canada doesn't allow unskilled worker migration except for asylum or family purposes.
I'm not my country. If you'd like to discuss Canada's immigration policies we can.
Your original question was, "I guess my question to those in favour of legal immigration versus illegal immigration is what do you find appealing about one but distasteful about the other?"

Pointing out Germany and Canada show that two of the most immigration friendly nations show that legal immigration cannot be unlimited and have turned unfriendly to unskilled labor.

Obviously there is a serious racist component to the Trump Administrations policy in addition to people that would actually support that administration. I assumed those weren't the people you're asking. Obama's administration deported more than any other president. I doubt that was racism based.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:21 am


Spoiler:
Hiring manythousands of judges, and going through a long and complicated legal process, is not the way to go - will always be disfunctional. People must simply be stopped at the Border and told they cannot come into the U.S. illegally. Children brought back to their country......
Country's closed. Orange jackass out front should have told you that
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Skinypupy » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:25 am

Isgrimnur wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:21 am
Country's closed. Orange jackass out front should have told you that
:clap:
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:50 am

noxiousdog wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:19 am


Your original question was, "I guess my question to those in favour of legal immigration versus illegal immigration is what do you find appealing about one but distasteful about the other?"

Pointing out Germany and Canada show that two of the most immigration friendly nations show that legal immigration cannot be unlimited and have turned unfriendly to unskilled labor.

Obviously there is a serious racist component to the Trump Administrations policy in addition to people that would actually support that administration. I assumed those weren't the people you're asking. Obama's administration deported more than any other president. I doubt that was racism based.
I don't see the answer to my question in your response though. It sounds like it's obvious to you, and that's cool, either I'm looking at this from the wrong angle or your answer about illegal/legal immigration in America is Canada's immigration policy?

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:52 am

Skinypupy wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:25 am
Isgrimnur wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:21 am
Country's closed. Orange jackass out front should have told you that
:clap:
Duke is starting to look like a moderate. Now someone tell me how this is about the Dems stoking conflict.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:59 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:50 am
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:19 am


Your original question was, "I guess my question to those in favour of legal immigration versus illegal immigration is what do you find appealing about one but distasteful about the other?"

Pointing out Germany and Canada show that two of the most immigration friendly nations show that legal immigration cannot be unlimited and have turned unfriendly to unskilled labor.

Obviously there is a serious racist component to the Trump Administrations policy in addition to people that would actually support that administration. I assumed those weren't the people you're asking. Obama's administration deported more than any other president. I doubt that was racism based.
I don't see the answer to my question in your response though. It sounds like it's obvious to you, and that's cool, either I'm looking at this from the wrong angle or your answer about illegal/legal immigration in America is Canada's immigration policy?
I thought it was obvious, but let me try again.

The evidence suggests that unbridled immigration creates infrastructure and social stresses. In order to stay within these limits, which will be different for every country and region, all immigration should stay within these limits. Allowing illegal immigration bypasses the controls to count and process foreign born nationals exacerbating the stresses mentioned previously. There is further harm to the immigrants as they fear registering and are not eligible for standard social services.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:19 am

Ok, that was not obvious to me, so thanks for clarifying.

tl;dr - I agree with your views as I think most sane people would. I'm just not sure there is any evidence that America is undergoing the stresses you describe. It's ability to absorb population is pretty significant, and appears likely to remain so for decades to come.

I already understood that you have concerns about growth rate (evidence suggests that if America is to continue growing you're going to need immigrants. breeding (only white people, for the racists out there) is not going to cover it). As you know, growth is required for the health of a country, just as it is for an economy.

But growth rate is independent of legal/illegal, and I believe you've just stated that your concern is that illegal immigration makes it difficult to control growth in a sustainable way. I don't disagree with this, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that America is in danger of out of control growth that will result in more negatives than positives. You may have touched on this in an earlier post.

Another point I believe needs to be addressed is that illegal immigration does not immediately mean "unknown" growth rate. If illegal immigration was not trackable we probably wouldn't be discussing this at all as a matter of policy. It would ALL be based on the racist image of those dirty foreigners pouring over the border (and, let's face it, most of it is).

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by El Guapo » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:33 am

There's also a large degree to which our current militarized border policies are *encouraging* long-term immigration rather than discouraging it. If people can come and go fluidly, then more people will come on a temporary basis, and leave more of their families behind, because they can go back and forth. Putting up walls and whatnot doesn't make the U.S. any less of an economic magnet, but it gives people more of a reason to stay long-term and to bring their families, because they can't count on being able to make the trip more than once.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:50 am

Well, long term immigration can be better for communities.

But Morristown, a town of 30,000 northeast of Knoxville that was the boyhood home of Davy Crockett, has drawn migrant workers from Latin America since the early 1990s, when they first came to work on the region’s abundant tomato farms. As stepped-up security has made going back and forth across the border more difficult, many of these families have settled into the community, enrolled their kids in school, and joined churches where they have baptized their American-born children.

Spoiler:
ICE Came for a
Tennessee Town’s
Immigrants. The
Town Fought Back.
Agents conducted one of the biggest
workplace raids since President
Trump announced a crackdown on
illegal immigration, detaining 97
workers in Morristown. But for
residents, these workers were their neighbors.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:51 am

El Guapo wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:33 am
There's also a large degree to which our current militarized border policies are *encouraging* long-term immigration rather than discouraging it. If people can come and go fluidly, then more people will come on a temporary basis, and leave more of their families behind, because they can go back and forth. Putting up walls and whatnot doesn't make the U.S. any less of an economic magnet, but it gives people more of a reason to stay long-term and to bring their families, because they can't count on being able to make the trip more than once.
Nobody wants to hear about how people don't want to live in the US. America is awesome and once you're in, only a fool would want to leave again.

Keep your lies to yourself.

Also, a HS friend and her husband abandoned the US, leaving behind 2x6 figure jobs to pick up new 2x6 figure jobs outside of the US, right before Drumpf happened. She married a smart cookie.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Defiant » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:15 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:41 pm
I guess my question to those in favour of legal immigration versus illegal immigration is what do you find appealing about one but distasteful about the other?
The US, on the whole, does a good job of taking in a lot of immigrants and integrating them compared to most countries. IMO, the process of legal immigration is part of that, including things like: making sure legal immigrants have a job, a naturalization process that relies on having lived in the country for a number of years without any issues, having basic literacy, taking a civics test, etc. Also, as mentioned, there may be a limit to the number of people we can accept while integrating them well (IMO, that number could be higher than we have now, since we have a very big, populous country).

Additionally, legal immigration gives us the power to decide who we allow in and how many we allow in - something that should be ours to choose.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Rip » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:56 pm


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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Kraken » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:53 pm

Trial runs for fascism are in full flow
It is easy to dismiss Donald Trump as an ignoramus, not least because he is. But he has an acute understanding of one thing: test marketing. He created himself in the gossip pages of the New York tabloids, where celebrity is manufactured by planting outrageous stories that you can later confirm or deny depending on how they go down. And he recreated himself in reality TV where the storylines can be adjusted according to the ratings. Put something out there, pull it back, adjust, go again.

Fascism doesn’t arise suddenly in an existing democracy. It is not easy to get people to give up their ideas of freedom and civility. You have to do trial runs that, if they are done well, serve two purposes. They get people used to something they may initially recoil from; and they allow you to refine and calibrate. This is what is happening now and we would be fools not to see it.

One of the basic tools of fascism is the rigging of elections – we’ve seen that trialled in the election of Trump, in the Brexit referendum and (less successfully) in the French presidential elections. Another is the generation of tribal identities, the division of society into mutually exclusive polarities. Fascism does not need a majority – it typically comes to power with about 40 per cent support and then uses control and intimidation to consolidate that power. So it doesn’t matter if most people hate you, as long as your 40 per cent is fanatically committed. That’s been tested out too. And fascism of course needs a propaganda machine so effective that it creates for its followers a universe of “alternative facts” impervious to unwanted realities. Again, the testing for this is very far advanced.
...
To see, as most commentary has done, the deliberate traumatisation of migrant children as a “mistake” by Trump is culpable naivety. It is a trial run – and the trial has been a huge success. Trump’s claim last week that immigrants “infest” the US is a test-marketing of whether his fans are ready for the next step-up in language, which is of course “vermin”. And the generation of images of toddlers being dragged from their parents is a test of whether those words can be turned into sounds and pictures. It was always an experiment – it ended (but only in part) because the results were in.

And the results are quite satisfactory. There is good news on two fronts. First, Rupert Murdoch is happy with it – his Fox News mouthpieces outdid themselves in barbaric crassness: making animal noises at the mention of a Down syndrome child, describing crying children as actors. They went the whole swinish hog: even the brown babies are liars. Those sobs of anguish are typical of the manipulative behaviour of the strangers coming to infest us – should we not fear a race whose very infants can be so devious? Second, the hardcore fans loved it: 58 per cent of Republicans are in favour of this brutality. Trump’s overall approval ratings are up to 42.5 per cent.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Skinypupy » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:28 pm

Well...that's depressing.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by $iljanus » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:38 am

You go Judge Sabraw of the District Court of San Diego:

"The facts set forth before the court portray reactive governance — responses to address a chaotic circumstance of the government’s own making,” the judge wrote in the opinion. “They belie measured and ordered governance, which is central to the concept of due process enshrined in our Constitution. This is particularly so in the treatment of migrants, many of whom are asylum seekers and small children.”

Judge Dana M. Sabraw of the Federal District Court in San Diego said children under 5 must be reunited with their parents within 14 days, and he ordered that all children must be allowed to talk to their parents within 10 days.

(above from a NYT article)

It is heartening when our judiciary tries to hold our asshat in chief to the rule of law and the Constitution.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by hepcat » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:31 am

Womp womp
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Jaymann » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:19 am

Rip makes it official - there is no need to build another wall.
Jaymann
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by em2nought » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:39 pm

Jaymann wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:19 am
Rip makes it official - there is no need to build another wall.
I'm pretty impressed that we recycled to build that first wall. Maybe we could just take all the bricks from derelict Detroit to build a new one. :wink:
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by LordMortis » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:15 pm

em2nought wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:39 pm
I'm pretty impressed that we recycled to build that first wall. Maybe we could just take all the bricks from derelict Detroit to build a new one. :wink:
You haven't had to shop for bricks before have you? Brick from "derelict Detroit" are pretty fucking expensive. Not copper pipe expensive but expensive

https://www.manta.com/c/mm5syqk/detroit-reclaimed-brick

Signed, someone who needs to reclaim bricks for his Detroit area home built circa 1950.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:59 pm

Vox
House Republicans have handily failed to pass an immigration bill — again.

For the past few weeks Republicans have been furiously negotiating among themselves to develop a “compromise” between conservative and moderate Republicans on immigration. But it wasn’t enough — by a long shot: The bill they voted on Wednesday lost the support of every single Democrat and 112 Republicans. The bill failed 121-301.

This is the second Republican-led immigration bill the House has failed to pass in two weeks. On June 21 a hardline conservative immigration bill introduced by Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA), which would have drastically cut the nation’s legal immigration levels and provided an extension of the Obama-era Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program, failed as well. All Democrats and 41 Republicans voted against that bill.

The Republican “compromise” immigration bill included a litany of a conservative policy proposals, modeled after the White House’s demands. It would have given DACA-eligible immigrants temporary legal status for six years, after which they could apply for — but would not be guaranteed — a green card.

The bill also called for granting $25 billion in funds for a southern border wall, making it more difficult for migrants to seek asylum, and allowing families to be detained indefinitely at the border in response to the Trump administration’s “zero-tolerance” family separation policy. It also included provisions that would have significantly cut legal immigration levels.

Though the bill was originally aimed at solving the DREAMer problem, one analysis from the Libertarian think tank CATO projected that only 420,000 DREAMers would actually benefit from the bill’s “path to citizenship” — far fewer than the estimated 1.8 million DACA-eligible immigrants living in the US.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Max Peck » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:16 pm

Russians Flock to Trump Properties to Give Birth to U.S. Citizens
Anatoliy Kuzmin held out his daughter’s blue U.S. passport over a red Russian one and snapped a photo from a Florida beach.

“Woohoo! Got dual citizenship for my daughter!” he wrote on Instagram.

American citizenship for the newborn girl was the goal of Kuzmin and his Instagram-celebrity wife, who sought the help of birth-tourism services in Florida for the arrival of their first child. They are among the estimated hundreds of Russian parents who flock to the U.S. annually for warm weather, excellent medical care, and, more importantly, birthright American citizenship.

And many, like Kuzmin and his wife, stay at President Donald Trump’s properties in Florida.
The Florida Trump properties are convenient options for wealthy Russians who can afford it. They are notorious for being investment properties for Russia’s hyper-wealthy, a safe place to store savings in U.S. dollars. And birth-tourism companies offer Trump apartments as part of packages costing upwards of $75,000.

SVM-MED, a Miami birth-tourism company that also boasts outposts in Moscow and Kiev, offers three tiers of packages to its clients, with the top two advertising lodging in Trump Towers. The most expensive package costs $84,700 for a Trump Tower II apartment with a gold-tiled bathtub and chauffeured Cadillac Escalade or Mercedes Benz.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by LordMortis » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:44 pm

Max Peck wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:16 pm
Russians Flock to Trump Properties to Give Birth to U.S. Citizens
Anatoliy Kuzmin held out his daughter’s blue U.S. passport over a red Russian one and snapped a photo from a Florida beach.

“Woohoo! Got dual citizenship for my daughter!” he wrote on Instagram.

American citizenship for the newborn girl was the goal of Kuzmin and his Instagram-celebrity wife, who sought the help of birth-tourism services in Florida for the arrival of their first child. They are among the estimated hundreds of Russian parents who flock to the U.S. annually for warm weather, excellent medical care, and, more importantly, birthright American citizenship.

And many, like Kuzmin and his wife, stay at President Donald Trump’s properties in Florida.
The Florida Trump properties are convenient options for wealthy Russians who can afford it. They are notorious for being investment properties for Russia’s hyper-wealthy, a safe place to store savings in U.S. dollars. And birth-tourism companies offer Trump apartments as part of packages costing upwards of $75,000.

SVM-MED, a Miami birth-tourism company that also boasts outposts in Moscow and Kiev, offers three tiers of packages to its clients, with the top two advertising lodging in Trump Towers. The most expensive package costs $84,700 for a Trump Tower II apartment with a gold-tiled bathtub and chauffeured Cadillac Escalade or Mercedes Benz.
But they are sending Trump their wealthiest...

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gilraen
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by gilraen » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:29 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:44 pm
But they are sending Trump their wealthiest...
In all fairness, it didn't start with Trump. Russian oligarchs, pop stars and anyone else who could afford it have been buying real estate in the U.S. and moving here at least part time, pretty much since the USSR fell apart. Even if they aren't particularly interested in a U.S. citizenship - they just prefer the stability of the dollar, the opportunities for their kids to go to better schools, physical safety, etc.

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Paingod
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Paingod » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:56 am

Do any of these dual citizenship folks qualify to run for President? I know you have to be a US citizen, but do you have to be exclusively US? Maybe somewhere hidden in this process, Putin is grooming a few potential allies for the future? It sounds absurd, but so does destroying a country using Facebook ads.
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LordMortis
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by LordMortis » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:05 am

gilraen wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:29 pm
In all fairness, it didn't start with Trump.
Fairness to who? I don't doubt for a second Trump is just a rich tool in a line of tools of the Russian Mafia/Slavic Oligarchies keeping his fortune by their graces.

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GreenGoo
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:17 am

You have to be a natural born citizen to run for president.

Terminator presidents need not apply.

Edit:I believe.

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stessier
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by stessier » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:20 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:17 am
You have to be a natural born citizen to run for president.

Terminator presidents need not apply.

Edit:I believe.
You may mean this, but to be clear, yes. Those kids are natural born citizens.
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Chaz
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Chaz » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:22 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:17 am
You have to be a natural born citizen to run for president.

Terminator presidents need not apply.

Edit:I believe.
But as far as I can see, these are kids whose parents are Russian citizens, but they come to the US explicitly to give birth, and then their child is granted dual citizenship in both US and Russia. Since they were born here, they're natural born US citizens. My guess is that there's a law that says they'd have to relinquish their second citizenship claim to run for office, but I wouldn't bet money either that I'm right, or that the GOP wouldn't be open to changing that law.
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