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Immigration Policy

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hepcat
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by hepcat » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:12 pm

Moliere wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:51 pm
:lol: :lol:
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Pyperkub » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:10 pm

Election did not appear to go well for ICE:
ICE relies on the cooperation and assistance of local law enforcement officials, many of which enter into formal partnerships with the agency. One of the strongest relationships that a jurisdiction can have with ICE is a 287(g) deal, which deputizes local officers to directly investigate the status of the people they detain. As of today, ICE reports that 78 law enforcement agencies are part of 287(g) agreements. That’s a small number relative to the nation’s thousands of counties—and it is likely to drop once officials elected on Tuesday take office.

In at least three populous counties, voters elected candidates who pledged to withdraw from the 287(g) program.

Two of those elections were in North Carolina,...

...Oregon voters upheld their state’s sanctuary law, which restricts cooperation over immigration between local authorities and ICE, decisively rejecting an initiative to repeal it.
But not all was that way:
voters in Frederick County, the home of Sheriff Chuck Jenkins, an ally of the Trump administration. While Jenkins won re-election by 6 percentage points on Tuesday—a margin that was far smaller than the 26 percentage points by which he defeated the same opponent four years ago—immigration policy proved to be a winning issue elsewhere....

...In Orange County, California, however, voters elected a new sheriff—Don Barnes—who opposes the state’s sanctuary law and helped put in place a new policy to circumvent its restrictions on cooperation between local authorities and ICE.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Daehawk » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:30 pm

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Max Peck » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:19 pm

Trump signs order limiting migrant asylum at U.S.-Mexico border
President Donald Trump on Friday signed a proclamation that effectively will suspend the granting of asylum to migrants who cross the U.S. border with Mexico illegally for up to 90 days.

The order, which goes into effect on Saturday, means that migrants will have to present themselves at U.S. ports of entry to qualify for asylum. Immigrant advocates say the administration has deliberately slowed the processing of migrants at official ports, forcing them to wait for days or weeks to request protection.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:28 pm

Cue the lawsuits.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Kraken » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:40 pm

On the one hand, I can't believe that the president can just make up new rules whenever it suits him. OTOH, who's going to stop him? Congress? The courts? They're both in the bag. The press? Fake news! The people? LOL

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by malchior » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:04 pm

What happened to the caravan? Why did we stop hearing about them? Did drones kill them all? Did they get scared away by the army? WHERE ARE THE INVADERS!?!?

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Daehawk » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:09 pm

Trump is a gangster and his made men supports love him.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Holman » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:20 pm

malchior wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:04 pm
What happened to the caravan? Why did we stop hearing about them? Did drones kill them all? Did they get scared away by the army? WHERE ARE THE INVADERS!?!?
It's a long march. They'll reappear in January when the Dem House is sworn in.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Grifman » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:09 am

Kraken wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:40 pm
On the one hand, I can't believe that the president can just make up new rules whenever it suits him. OTOH, who's going to stop him? Congress? The courts? They're both in the bag. The press? Fake news! The people? LOL
Uh, didn’t Obama make up new rules when he created DACA? Were you as upset then?

And, yes, the courts have, and will continue to constrain Trump. They are not “in the bag”.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Max Peck » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:35 am

Grifman wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:09 am
Kraken wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:40 pm
On the one hand, I can't believe that the president can just make up new rules whenever it suits him. OTOH, who's going to stop him? Congress? The courts? They're both in the bag. The press? Fake news! The people? LOL
Uh, didn’t Obama make up new rules when he created DACA? Were you as upset then?
Is the actual issue that Trump is making up new rules, or that he's making up new rules that are deliberately cruel?
Time and tide melt the snowman.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Grifman » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:48 am

Max Peck wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:35 am
Grifman wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:09 am
Kraken wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:40 pm
On the one hand, I can't believe that the president can just make up new rules whenever it suits him. OTOH, who's going to stop him? Congress? The courts? They're both in the bag. The press? Fake news! The people? LOL
Uh, didn’t Obama make up new rules when he created DACA? Were you as upset then?
Is the actual issue that Trump is making up new rules, or that he's making up new rules that are deliberately cruel?
Well, Kraken did not mention cruelty so all I have to go on is exactly what he said :)
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Kraken » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:35 pm

Grifman wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:48 am
Max Peck wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:35 am
Grifman wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:09 am
Kraken wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:40 pm
On the one hand, I can't believe that the president can just make up new rules whenever it suits him. OTOH, who's going to stop him? Congress? The courts? They're both in the bag. The press? Fake news! The people? LOL
Uh, didn’t Obama make up new rules when he created DACA? Were you as upset then?
Is the actual issue that Trump is making up new rules, or that he's making up new rules that are deliberately cruel?
Well, Kraken did not mention cruelty so all I have to go on is exactly what he said :)
Obama would have taken care that his directives were consistent with his authority. I don't give Trump the same benefit of the doubt, given his demonstrated contempt for the constitution and the rule of law. But I don't know if he overstepped in this case or not, so *smoke bomb*.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by YellowKing » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:29 pm

As much as I disagreed with Obama at times, I always felt that he was making decisions for the country, even if they were tough. I've never felt that Trump has done anything unless it was for his own personal benefit.

What's sad is that his followers believe that Trump is fighting for them, when in reality they're just a means to an end to his own power. Trump would crush any #MAGA hat wearing rally-goer like a bug if it was profitable.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Smoove_B » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:18 pm

Moose out front should have told you - San Diego port of entry is closed:
US Customs and Border Protection closed road and pedestrian bridges on Sunday at the San Ysidro port of entry, one of the largest land border crossings between San Diego and Tijuana, Mexico.

...

With bridge and pedestrian border crossings closed in both directions, the migrants headed for the cargo area where the railroad crosses, Alvarez said.They appeared to get close to the border wall, Alvarez said. He could not see from his position if the migrants had managed to get across the actual border.
So we should be hearing about shots fired on them in the next 24 hours or so?

EDIT: Guardian UK reporting (via the AP) that we are shooting teargas at children.
The Associated Press reported that migrants approaching the border were enveloped with teargas after a few tried to breach the fence separating the two countries. US agents shot the gas, according to an AP reporter on the scene. Children were screaming and coughing in the mayhem.

Honduran migrant Ana Zúñiga, 23, told the AP she saw migrants open a small hole in concertina wire at a gap on the Mexican side of a levee, at which point US agents fired teargas at them.

“We ran but when you run the gas asphyxiates you more,” she said, holding her three-year-old daughter, Valery.
Are_we_the_baddies?.jpg

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Octavious » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:30 pm

On the positive side, if captain dumbass is going to fight a war this is much better than him invading Iran. It's going to take decades to build back respect for this country if ever.
Capitalism tries for a delicate balance: It attempts to work things out so that everyone gets just enough stuff to keep them from getting violent and trying to take other people’s stuff.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Holman » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:57 pm

Many People Are Saying that teargassing toddlers is the most presidential thing ever done. These toddlers are Bad People.

I honestly think I'm going to be sick.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Smoove_B » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:01 pm

The comments I've seen suggest the women and children were mixed in very bad people throwing rocks (equivalent to guns, remember) and if they (women and children) didn't want to be gassed, they shouldn't have been associating with bad people.

At least, I think that's the argument. For gassing children.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by $iljanus » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:59 pm

Admittedly I'm taking this from my reading of various unofficial unsanctioned non-Fox news sources but in the past when groups of people came up to the border and applied for asylum they were calmly processed and either stayed with relatives or other arrangements were made until their case was heard. There was a monitoring program which I believe cost less than the amount needed for the latest deployment to the border. The compliance rate for people showing up for their court date was rather high, either in the eighty or ninety percent range.

I'm just saying that the current unrest is a result of a self fulfilling prophecy of doom and gloom with a resulting escalation of rhetoric and force. I just wonder, who gains from such a haphazard policy? Hmmmm...

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Kraken » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:56 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:30 pm
On the positive side, if captain dumbass is going to fight a war this is much better than him invading Iran. It's going to take decades to build back respect for this country if ever.
The policies will be easy to reverse (unlike an actual war), but the memory will stain forever.

Is America great again yet?

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Default » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:59 pm

Kraken wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:56 pm
Octavious wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:30 pm
On the positive side, if captain dumbass is going to fight a war this is much better than him invading Iran. It's going to take decades to build back respect for this country if ever.
The policies will be easy to reverse (unlike an actual war), but the memory will stain forever.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Holman » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:50 am

Octavious wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:30 pm
On the positive side, if captain dumbass is going to fight a war this is much better than him invading Iran. It's going to take decades to build back respect for this country if ever.
Be careful what you wish for.



We're going to be machine-gunning them by the end of the week, aren't we?
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by $iljanus » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:54 am

Holman wrote:
Octavious wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:30 pm
On the positive side, if captain dumbass is going to fight a war this is much better than him invading Iran. It's going to take decades to build back respect for this country if ever.
Be careful what you wish for.



We're going to be machine-gunning them by the end of the week, aren't we?
He really is a toddler repeating the same things over and over and over again.

They should fly a huge Dora the Explorer balloon in front of Mar a Largo to rattle his cage.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Unagi » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:37 pm

It's all a build-up for his central argument in 2020... it will entirely be about this wall and immigration from Mexico in 2020 if he can make it so. His base loves it. I think it's a dead-end for him, so I guess I don't care if he goes down it.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by LawBeefaroni » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:46 pm

Max Peck wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:35 am
Grifman wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:09 am
Kraken wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:40 pm
On the one hand, I can't believe that the president can just make up new rules whenever it suits him. OTOH, who's going to stop him? Congress? The courts? They're both in the bag. The press? Fake news! The people? LOL
Uh, didn’t Obama make up new rules when he created DACA? Were you as upset then?
Is the actual issue that Trump is making up new rules, or that he's making up new rules that are deliberately cruel?
IMO it's more than that. Obama's orders (and other executive orders) expanded rights of individuals. Trump's universally reduce them. Some of US citizens, some of non-citizens. But it's an alarming trend.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Holman » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:30 pm



Not a good look, America.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Smoove_B » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:37 pm

Image

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:42 pm

It's like, optics? What makes us look the most like the monsters we're accused of being? Let's do that, then act indignant when criticized for it.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Kraken » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:38 am

Are we the baddies?

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by El Guapo » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:43 am

If it helps, my understanding is that these numbers weren't written on them by a U.S. agency. Looks like the numbers were written in black sharpie by a migrant shelter in Juarez.

Which, you know, still not a good look, but not "government tattooing numbers onto a minority" bad. If that's of any comfort.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Grifman » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:05 am

I'm no fan of Trump, nor his immigration "policy", and US immigration policy needs fixing in many ways, but what is the solution? The caravaners were naive to say the least that that they were going to come to the the US border and get in quickly. There's no way any president is going to let in a group like this, if only to discourage similar groups from trying the same thing. If several thousand people from a caravan were admitted under asylum claims to the US in just a couple of days, within weeks you'd have multiple caravans with tens of thousands of people making their way to the US border seeking the game goal. The floodgates would be unleashed. I don't think the US or Mexico would want that.

Some of these people have legitimate claims, but some don't (where the line falls no one can know). Some fear for their lives, but I suspect most are economic refugees, just wanting an opportunity to make life better for them and their families. I don't blame them for trying and I certainly feel for their situation. But it's never been US policy to admit such people in wholesale and the US can't absorb the entire populations of Honduras and Guatemala.

I don't think Obama would have done much differently from a practical POV. He wouldn't have called out the army to do nothing but sit on the border, he would not have demonized the refugees, etc. but I really don't think he would have admitted thousands into the US. They might have sped up the asylum claim processing but I do think he would have required people to wait in Mexico until a preliminary determination of their claims had been made.

Honduras and Guatemala are a mess, but I don't think the solution lies on the US border.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:51 am

El Guapo wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:43 am
Which, you know, still not a good look, but not "government tattooing numbers onto a minority" bad. If that's of any comfort.
Thanks. That's an important difference. A huge difference.

Unlike say, Rip, I'm fully willing to withdraw my criticism as misguided and simply wrong.

The first tweet says essentially that the numbers were given in Juarez. The retweet skips over this fact and makes sure that numbers and the US are mentioned in the same sentence. I do try to be diligent in confirming the information being poured in my ear, but there is so much, and it's a lot of work, and people are actively trying to get you to believe things that aren't true.

It's difficult.
Last edited by GreenGoo on Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:05 pm

Grifman wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:05 am
I'm no fan of Trump, nor his immigration "policy", and US immigration policy needs fixing in many ways, but what is the solution? The caravaners were naive to say the least that that they were going to come to the the US border and get in quickly.
You make a couple of assumptions that aren't accurate before you ask your question, so let's get that out of the way.

"Get in quickly". What do you mean by that? They (most?) are claiming refugee status. Is America no longer taking in refugees? That's...not good. If true, the world needs to know that. Otherwise, refugees are going to come to the US seeking asylum. "Get in quickly" in this case could mean anything from speedy processing of their claim to invited in to be fed and sheltered while their claim is processed to setting up residence in the US. If the US is no longer providing humanitarian aid unless that aid is far away and in distant countries, the world needs to know that so the rest of us can act with that understanding.

What is the solution indeed? But the caravan isn't a problem or loophole with immigration policy. You could argue that Coyotes (people smuggling) are a problem, but these are refugees. They didn't try to sneak over the border. They walked up to it and asked for asylum status. Well, before they got a chance they got tear gassed. They charged the fences because when they arrived the US pulled up the drawbridge and told them to get lost. These are desperate people, but not in the way Drumpf wants to characterize them.

How bad do things have to be for you to walk thousands of miles with your babies in diapers? Is it so wrong to actually ask and find out, rather than tear gassing them?

Refugees aren't villains. They are people suffering and downtrodden. And the US closed it's doors on them. When things became even more desperate for them, the US tear gassed them.

These aren't illegal immigrants. They walked straight up to the front door and knocked, something the US knew was coming for weeks. Instead of preparing for it, the US manned the battlements.

I guess I should ask what you think is the problem with "US refugee policy" now? Also, Obama made far more substantial changes to the Immigration Policy to reduce the number of illegals crossing the border including increasing the number of border guards than Drumpf has even lied about doing on twitter. He didn't have to tear gas children in diapers to do it.

One of the reasons the Immigration Policy problem hasn't been solved is that there is no consensus on what the problem actually is. How many illegals are an acceptable number of illegals? If the answer is none, then that's an impossible task. The US spends zillions on law enforcement. There isn't "zero" crime because zero crime is impossible. Likewise zero illegals.

The serious players take this question seriously. Fox and Drumpf just use it as a hotbutton topic to make money/get votes. They don't want to solve the "problem" however it's defined. They want to rant about it all day an harvest peoples' outrage. That's not serious. That's not responsible. That's cynicism at it's worst.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:19 pm

I'm trying to find information on how refugees have been handled during previous administration, to verify or refute Grifman's speculation that Obama would have closed the borders as well. If izzy or someone in the know could point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it. Searching for immigration or refugee policy on the internet is a fetid swamp of results.

There is an argument to be made that Mexico should be doing more, and since there is a strong diplomatic relationship between Mexico and the US, they should be able to work together here. To hear drumpf tell it, this is Mexico's problem. Is it? Perhaps. But I don't think it's completely reasonable to put it all on them.

It's also good that Mexico is not Honduras and the Mexican government is actually in a position to do something significant to help.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Grifman » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:38 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:19 pm
I'm trying to find information on how refugees have been handled during previous administration, to verify or refute Grifman's speculation that Obama would have closed the borders as well.
Trump has not closed the border, and I never said Obama would do that. Trump has threatened to do so but that is totally impractical due to commerce. It’s an empty threat.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:16 pm

What's difference between closing the border and closing and locking this particular door that people are trying to enter through in the context being discussed?

If you think the semantics here matter, by all means correct me, but please do me the courtesy of also acknowledging the spirit of my words, if not the letter.

The caravan arrived, and the border crossing was closed in response. That fact is not in dispute.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:32 pm

In the spirit of not adding detail by editing, I'm adding detail here.

I realize the border was opened again, but I never expected it to be closed permanently, so...good job, I guess? I also realize that processing is in a work to rule state. The US knew these people were coming, have done nothing but manned the ramparts in preparation.

With thousands to process and more to come, how long do you figure it will take to process them at a maximum of 100 per day, potentially less? Is the US without resources? Why are they not increasing their ability to process? The DHLS is on record as saying that resources are only going into security, zero into anything humanitarian related. Shining city indeed.

In any case, these are the problems that I have with the US's handling of the situation. We started with you stating that the (edit: you are not a "the you") you have issues with US Immigration Policy and then referenced the Caravaners. But the Caravaners are refugees, and despite being tear gassed, are being processed. That's exactly how the system is supposed to work, barring violence from either side, and barring the fact that the US is in no rush to process thousands of people with no homes, money, shelter or food.

What part of the caravan as it relates to US Immigration Policy do you have an issue with? Their naiveté? That's the thing about refugees. They get to make a choice from a list of bad choices. It's likely they knew what they were getting into. Or not. It doesn't matter, because being accused of being naive is pretty weak sauce when you're at the end of your rope.

edit: In the spirit of damning with faint praise, the US *IS* processing the refugees, which I really didn't expect them to do. Well done.
Last edited by GreenGoo on Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unagi
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Unagi » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:19 am

faintly glowing city?

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GreenGoo
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:00 pm

Unagi wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:19 am
faintly glowing city?
Rolling brown outs city with engineers scrambling day and night to keep everything from going out permanently?

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noxiousdog
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:54 pm

Seeking refugee status averages an 18 month process.

We also used tear gas on immigrants during the Obama administration.

The process needs completely redesigned balancing all the issues that go into immigration.
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