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Immigration Policy

For discussion of religion and politics

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Skinypupy
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Skinypupy » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:09 pm

Holman wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:28 pm

#BREAKING: Trump cuts off foreign aid to El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras http://hill.cm/vRFkCcU
That'll show those asylum seekers who's boss!
So...due to the minimized aid, there will now be even more desperate people likely to head to the US as a last resort option.

Something tells me Trump didn’t think this cunning plan all the way through.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Toe » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:36 pm

Skinypupy wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:09 pm
Holman wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:28 pm

#BREAKING: Trump cuts off foreign aid to El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras http://hill.cm/vRFkCcU
That'll show those asylum seekers who's boss!
So...due to the minimized aid, there will now be even more desperate people likely to head to the US as a last resort option.

Something tells me Trump didn’t think this cunning plan all the way through.
Of course he did not, but those pushing him to do this absolutely are. They are orchestrating a border crisis that should be hitting its stride when the 2020 campaign really starts heating up (not to mention more of that sweet tax-payer money flowing into trump's friends who are running the border interment camps).

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:42 am

I wondered which countries they were talking about....

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Jaymann » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:12 am

So if Trump closes the border how will people attend the dog races?
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by $iljanus » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:12 pm

From a WaPo story:
White House press secretary Sarah Sanders softened the White House’s threat to close the southern border by the end of the week, saying Tuesday that such a move was not President Trump’s “first choice” and that he does not have a “specific timeline.”

“Eventually it may be the best decision that we close the border,” Sanders told reporters at the White House, adding that Mexico has taken some concrete steps to slow the flow of migrants coming into the United States, as Trump has demanded.

“He’s hoping that Mexico will continue to step up, like we’ve seen them do over the last couple of weeks,” Sanders said. “We hope that that continues, and that we can work with them so we don’t have to [close the border].”

Asked what date the president has in mind for a possible border closure, Sanders said that “the president’s not working on a specific timeline.”
Mission accomplished! Now after stirring up some chaos and the blood of his base with his manly posturing he’s off to the next shiny thing and a few holes of golf. Governing is hard on the brain you know.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Kraken » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:39 pm

Threaten to create a crisis.
Dither.
Back down.
Crisis solved! So much winning!

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Max Peck » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:59 pm

Skinypupy wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:09 pm
So...due to the minimized aid, there will now be even more desperate people likely to head to the US as a last resort option.

Something tells me Trump didn’t think this cunning plan all the way through.
Alternatively, perhaps they did (although I'd credit any cunning plans to the likes of Stephen Miller rather than Trump). The more desperate refugees there are at the border, the easier it is to portray it as a crisis warranting more extreme measures.
Time and tide melt the snowman.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by LordMortis » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:03 pm

$iljanus wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:12 pm
From a WaPo story:
White House press secretary Sarah Sanders softened the White House’s threat to close the southern border by the end of the week, saying Tuesday that such a move was not President Trump’s “first choice” and that he does not have a “specific timeline.”

“Eventually it may be the best decision that we close the border,” Sanders told reporters at the White House, adding that Mexico has taken some concrete steps to slow the flow of migrants coming into the United States, as Trump has demanded.

“He’s hoping that Mexico will continue to step up, like we’ve seen them do over the last couple of weeks,” Sanders said. “We hope that that continues, and that we can work with them so we don’t have to [close the border].”

Asked what date the president has in mind for a possible border closure, Sanders said that “the president’s not working on a specific timeline.”
Mission accomplished! Now after stirring up some chaos and the blood of his base with his manly posturing he’s off to the next shiny thing and a few holes of golf. Governing is hard on the brain you know.

What steps?
You know. Concrete ones.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:10 pm

$iljanus wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:12 pm
From a WaPo story:
White House press secretary Sarah Sanders softened the White House’s threat to close the southern border by the end of the week, saying Tuesday that such a move was not President Trump’s “first choice” and that he does not have a “specific timeline.”

Timeline achieved! They have one year.

President Trump on Thursday said he was giving Mexico a "one-year warning" to stop the flows of migration and drugs into the U.S., or he would slap tariffs on cars made there and close the southern border.


I guess that's good emergency response time?
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GungHo » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:01 am

Border patrol pursuit tactics questioned

Not really a pro or con story for a wall necessarily (though I'm sure someone like say, trump, could interpret it through that lens) but IMO highlights a need for more funding for border patrol agents. They need more boots on the ground, and more eyes in the sky, as well as more/better training.

Why can't trump ask for something that would actually help and have (gasp) bi-partisan support? Are we at the point that anything, no matter what it is, if it's supported by 'the other side' is bad?
OR
cry in a corner that the world has come to a point where you have to pay for imaginary shit.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Jeff V » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:57 am

GungHo wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:01 am
Why can't trump ask for something that would actually help and have (gasp) bi-partisan support? Are we at the point that anything, no matter what it is, if it's supported by 'the other side' is bad?
Because he promised a dumb-ass wall and lied to his dumb-ass followers about them paying for it.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Defiant » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:54 pm


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Jaymann
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Jaymann » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:40 pm

You're an animal! No, worse. Human.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Holman » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:55 pm

Defiant wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:54 pm
Due grammatical diligence:

He shifts from talking about asylum seekers to expelled immigrants inside of a single sentence, and the latter are the ones he calls "animals."

In theory, someone could be making a 100% distinction between the two groups, but this is Donald Trump, whose dog whistles are basically bullhorns.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Max Peck
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Max Peck » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:38 am

Morally, does it really matter which group of people he's intending to dehumanize?
Time and tide melt the snowman.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Holman » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:46 am

Max Peck wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:38 am
Morally, does it really matter which group of people he's intending to dehumanize?
Not one bit. But "He was talking about gang members!!" will be trotted out as an excuse (until they decide excuses are no longer necessary).
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Defiant » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:42 pm

Holman wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:55 pm


He shifts from talking about asylum seekers to expelled immigrants inside of a single sentence, and the latter are the ones he calls "animals."

In theory, someone could be making a 100% distinction between the two groups, but this is Donald Trump, whose dog whistles are basically bullhorns.
Consider, also, that some of those expelled have included asylum seekers and almost American citizens.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Kraken » Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:05 pm

The New Yorker did a 3-part series about why those subhumans from Guatemala are swarming the border.

Part 1 - Climate change
In February, citing a “national-security crisis on our southern border,” Donald Trump declared a state of emergency, a measure that even members of Congress from his own party rejected. Three months earlier, with much less fanfare, thirteen federal agencies issued a landmark report about the damage wrought by climate change. In a sixteen-hundred-page analysis, government scientists described wildfires in California, the collapse of infrastructure in the South, crop shortages in the Midwest, and catastrophic flooding. The President publicly dismissed the findings. “As to whether or not it’s man-made and whether or not the effects that you’re talking about are there, I don’t see it,” he said. There was a deeper layer of denial in this, since overlooking these effects meant turning a blind eye to one of the major forces driving migration to the border. “There are always a lot of reasons why people migrate,” Yarsinio Palacios, an expert on forestry in Guatemala, told me. “Maybe a family member is sick. Maybe they are trying to make up for losses from the previous year. But in every situation, it has something to do with climate change.”
Part 2 - Debt
Richard Lee Johnson, a doctoral candidate at the University of Arizona who is based in Quetzaltenango, has spent the last five years studying the relationship between debt and migration, and has interviewed dozens of immigrants and their families in the western highlands. What he’s found is a feedback loop in which immigrants who fail to reach the U.S. become stuck in a cycle of future attempts. “These days, average migrant debts have climbed so high that a U.S. wage is the only real way to pay them off,” Johnson told me. The Trump Administration has only exacerbated the situation. By focussing almost exclusively on harsher enforcement at the border, it has made crossing much more painful but no less urgent for those who are trying to alleviate mounting debts. “Deportation doesn’t seem to deter undocumented migration,” Johnson said, “so much as to reinforce it.”
Part 3 - Money
At the same time, nearly every aspect of life in Guatemala depends on money coming from the United States. Last year, nine billion dollars were sent back to the country in the form of remittances—an amount that is roughly double the total from a decade ago and accounted for more than eleven per cent of Guatemala’s gross domestic product. Donald Trump has announced that he will be cutting all aid to Central America, complaining that the U.S. gives these countries “tremendous amounts of money”; in 2017, the total sum of money the U.S. sent to the region in annual aid amounted to roughly five hundred million dollars, or less than three per cent of the money received in the form of remittances. “People can afford milk and eggs because of the remittances they receive,” Irma Alicia Velásquez Nimatuj, a social anthropologist from Quetzaltenango, told me. “They can build houses. Their children can get an education. And people can start small businesses. The only way poor indigenous women can afford their traditional dress is because of remittance money.”
Like most New Yorker stories, it's worth the deep dive.

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Holman
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Holman » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:41 am

Kraken wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:05 pm
The New Yorker did a 3-part series about why those subhumans from Guatemala are swarming the border.

Part 1 - Climate change
In February, citing a “national-security crisis on our southern border,” Donald Trump declared a state of emergency, a measure that even members of Congress from his own party rejected. Three months earlier, with much less fanfare, thirteen federal agencies issued a landmark report about the damage wrought by climate change. In a sixteen-hundred-page analysis, government scientists described wildfires in California, the collapse of infrastructure in the South, crop shortages in the Midwest, and catastrophic flooding. The President publicly dismissed the findings. “As to whether or not it’s man-made and whether or not the effects that you’re talking about are there, I don’t see it,” he said. There was a deeper layer of denial in this, since overlooking these effects meant turning a blind eye to one of the major forces driving migration to the border. “There are always a lot of reasons why people migrate,” Yarsinio Palacios, an expert on forestry in Guatemala, told me. “Maybe a family member is sick. Maybe they are trying to make up for losses from the previous year. But in every situation, it has something to do with climate change.”
Part 2 - Debt
Richard Lee Johnson, a doctoral candidate at the University of Arizona who is based in Quetzaltenango, has spent the last five years studying the relationship between debt and migration, and has interviewed dozens of immigrants and their families in the western highlands. What he’s found is a feedback loop in which immigrants who fail to reach the U.S. become stuck in a cycle of future attempts. “These days, average migrant debts have climbed so high that a U.S. wage is the only real way to pay them off,” Johnson told me. The Trump Administration has only exacerbated the situation. By focussing almost exclusively on harsher enforcement at the border, it has made crossing much more painful but no less urgent for those who are trying to alleviate mounting debts. “Deportation doesn’t seem to deter undocumented migration,” Johnson said, “so much as to reinforce it.”
Part 3 - Money
At the same time, nearly every aspect of life in Guatemala depends on money coming from the United States. Last year, nine billion dollars were sent back to the country in the form of remittances—an amount that is roughly double the total from a decade ago and accounted for more than eleven per cent of Guatemala’s gross domestic product. Donald Trump has announced that he will be cutting all aid to Central America, complaining that the U.S. gives these countries “tremendous amounts of money”; in 2017, the total sum of money the U.S. sent to the region in annual aid amounted to roughly five hundred million dollars, or less than three per cent of the money received in the form of remittances. “People can afford milk and eggs because of the remittances they receive,” Irma Alicia Velásquez Nimatuj, a social anthropologist from Quetzaltenango, told me. “They can build houses. Their children can get an education. And people can start small businesses. The only way poor indigenous women can afford their traditional dress is because of remittance money.”
Like most New Yorker stories, it's worth the deep dive.
Well, I'm sure cutting off aid will make it all better.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Holman » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:30 pm



How's Article II Section 3 doing these days?
He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by coopasonic » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:32 pm

Come on. It was a joke. Can't anyone joke around any more?
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Zarathud » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:57 pm

Anyone who takes the DHS job will have agreed to break the law and follow Trump's orders.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Holman » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:10 pm



It must really suck to love autocracy SO MUCH while knowing you still can't make your troops murder civilians.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Smoove_B » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:43 pm

I honestly can't even begin to imagine the shit he would say and do if elected to a second term. He's unhinged.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:00 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:43 pm
I honestly can't even begin to imagine the shit he would say and do if elected to a second term. He's unhinged.
Kraken assures me it's all an act to distract us from the machinations of his genius.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by pr0ner » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:33 am

Smoove_B wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:43 pm
I honestly can't even begin to imagine the shit he would say and do if elected to a second term. He's unhinged.
Probably more of this:

Hodor.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Jaymann » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:46 am

Moving into the arena of thought crime!
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Kraken » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:39 am

Not too many pages ago we were all agreed that there was no crisis at the border -- and there wasn't, at the time. That paradigm has shifted. Trump's wall is still irrelevant; his policies are worsening the flow of refugees; and decapitating the DHS is not going to help. If Trump were out of the picture, Congress could probably hammer out a comprehensive reform. But can we agree that the crisis is real now?

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:51 am

No? What do you mean, crisis? Like 80's style war on drugs crisis?

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Jeff V » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:01 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:51 am
No? What do you mean, crisis? Like 80's style war on drugs crisis?
No, crisis as in "holy fuck! My house is burning!" after sprinkling every surface in your house with gasoline.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:05 pm

Jeff V wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:01 am
GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:51 am
No? What do you mean, crisis? Like 80's style war on drugs crisis?
No, crisis as in "holy fuck! My house is burning!" after sprinkling every surface in your house with gasoline.
But I'm not sure where Kraken is getting that level of crisis from. Sure, the system is overloaded and sure, a number of records are being set, but crisis? I mean, you could literally throw money at this and bring it down to manageable levels. At least that is my understanding.

The current crisis is more "My house is burning! after randomly lighting matches and throwing them", not "My house is burning! because I doused it in gasoline".

I'm not following the immigrant situation closely, but I am watching it out of the corner of my eye. The system was faltering before drumpf took office, is my understanding, mainly due to a lack of resources.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Jeff V » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:06 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:05 pm
The system was faltering before drumpf took office, is my understanding, mainly due to a lack of resources.
I would call it failing because of an ill-conceived process. Throwing more money at a shitty system is where the objections come in.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Zarathud » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:12 pm

Trump did pour gasoline on the dumpster fire. He motivated people to come before it's too late, by killing immigration reform and proposing unworkable walls/rules that keep it in the headlines. At the same time, Trump lost any leverage over Mexico/Guatemala and made them want to see Trump fail.
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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:12 pm

Jeff V wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:06 pm
I would call it failing because of an ill-conceived process. Throwing more money at a shitty system is where the objections come in.
What, specifically, is the ill-conceived part of the process? What's shitty about the current system?

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Pyperkub » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:47 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:12 pm
Jeff V wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:06 pm
I would call it failing because of an ill-conceived process. Throwing more money at a shitty system is where the objections come in.
What, specifically, is the ill-conceived part of the process? What's shitty about the current system?
If you want to halt illegal immigration, the first step would be to make e-verfiy mandatory. that's the low-hanging fruit.
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:54 pm

Pyperkub wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:47 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:12 pm
Jeff V wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:06 pm
I would call it failing because of an ill-conceived process. Throwing more money at a shitty system is where the objections come in.
What, specifically, is the ill-conceived part of the process? What's shitty about the current system?
If you want to halt illegal immigration, the first step would be to make e-verfiy mandatory. that's the low-hanging fruit.
I don't understand. Is all this constant, never ending debate about immigrants using falsified papers? Is the army and a wall required to stop people filing fraudulent documentation?

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Jeff V » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:59 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:12 pm
Jeff V wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:06 pm
I would call it failing because of an ill-conceived process. Throwing more money at a shitty system is where the objections come in.
What, specifically, is the ill-conceived part of the process? What's shitty about the current system?
Let's start by incarcerating immigrants in private prisons that do not have to conform to basic laws of human treatment required of our government-run prisons. And those private prisons are by and large owned and operated by the sort who you might find hanging out a Mar-a-lago. This includes our piece of shit former GOP governor.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:59 pm

Jeff V wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:59 pm
Let's start by incarcerating immigrants in private prisons that do not have to conform to basic laws of human treatment required of our government-run prisons. And those private prisons are by and large owned and operated by the sort who you might find hanging out a Mar-a-lago. This includes our piece of shit former GOP governor.
Well sure, but that's like suggesting the justice system is ill-conceived and shitty because of private prisons. It's not like I disagree with you, it's that I'm left scratching my head about how that fixes the "crisis" at the border. I'm not moving the goalposts here, that's where we started.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Kraken » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:16 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:51 am
No? What do you mean, crisis? Like 80's style war on drugs crisis?
Crisis as in: This system is overwhelmed to the point where it can never catch up. (Numbers from memory) It takes 700 days to process an asylum request because there is a backlog of 800,000 cases, with thousands more added every day. Oh, and our president* throws gasoline on the fire by cutting aid and threatening to close the border.

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Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:28 pm

Kraken wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:16 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:51 am
No? What do you mean, crisis? Like 80's style war on drugs crisis?
Crisis as in: This system is overwhelmed to the point where it can never catch up. (Numbers from memory) It takes 700 days to process an asylum request because there is a backlog of 800,000 cases, with thousands more added every day. Oh, and our president* throws gasoline on the fire by cutting aid and threatening to close the border.
But...that's not a crisis, that's a backlog. When there's a lot of work you do more work. You hire more workers. There weren't enough judges or processors during Obama's tenure. What systems have been proposed to deal with this "crisis" in the past? How is this different from 2016? 2012?

You have a LOT of people trying to get in. You can't actually stop that. So what's the solution to this "ill-conceived" and "shitty" system? Or at least what changes are being looked at that help deal with that backlog? Why didn't Obama deal with this? Or did he? What's special now, aside from Drumpf pulling funding from the system (it's too early for his reducing aid to actually have any tangible effect yet. Hell, has he actually pulled the aid yet? How much has not gone out that was going out prior to this drumpf's tantrum?)

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