How divided are we?
Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus
- Kurth
- Posts: 5911
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
- Location: Portland
How divided are we?
Editing to add a consolidated list at the bottom for convenience
In one of the Trump threads, there were recently some comments and questions about how hard it will be for the U.S. to recover from the Trump presidency. I was also listening to some excerpts from Sen. McCain’s new book In which he encourages Americans to focus on the things that unite us rather than all the fractious things that divide us. His notion is that we can exist with ideaological divides so long as there’s enough we have in common to keep the socio-political national fabric stitched together.
So here’s an exercise: Replying from the perspective of someone who you believe to be 180 degrees opposite from you on the political spectrum, make one statement on a political/social issue you imagine that person (hypothetical or real) holds a firm conviction about that you agree with as well.
No explanations, critiques or defenses required. Really just looking to see how challenging it is to come up with such a list and what might be on it.
1. The freedom to practice the religion of your choice (or none) is an essential right, and theocracies are inherently bad forms of government.
2. Fiscally responsible government.
3. The 21st Amendment.
4. Economy. Everyone wants/needs a job and all the benefits that come from a strong economy. [X2]
5. People should enjoy liberties, rights, and opportunity so long as these don't harm others.
6. Marijuana should be legal.
7. Protect Social Security.
8. Children should be allowed to walk to school or go to the playground (or, really, wherever) on their own without some worry wort busybody with nothing better to do calling the cops on their parents. [clarified to mean that children should be safe to do so]
9. All children should have access to an education.
10. Drone strikes should not be used.
11. No amount of collateral damage is acceptable.
12. Nobody should have to decide between bankruptcy and seeing a doctor [or, the cost of healthcare is out of control] [X3]
13. Death penalty is sometimes the appropriate punishment.
14. Stealing is wrong.
15. Nuclear power is a responsible way to generate electricity with minimal carbon emissions.
16. Animals shouldn't be tortured.
17. A strong U.S. military is essential to both our national defense and the maintenance of stability throughout the world.
In one of the Trump threads, there were recently some comments and questions about how hard it will be for the U.S. to recover from the Trump presidency. I was also listening to some excerpts from Sen. McCain’s new book In which he encourages Americans to focus on the things that unite us rather than all the fractious things that divide us. His notion is that we can exist with ideaological divides so long as there’s enough we have in common to keep the socio-political national fabric stitched together.
So here’s an exercise: Replying from the perspective of someone who you believe to be 180 degrees opposite from you on the political spectrum, make one statement on a political/social issue you imagine that person (hypothetical or real) holds a firm conviction about that you agree with as well.
No explanations, critiques or defenses required. Really just looking to see how challenging it is to come up with such a list and what might be on it.
1. The freedom to practice the religion of your choice (or none) is an essential right, and theocracies are inherently bad forms of government.
2. Fiscally responsible government.
3. The 21st Amendment.
4. Economy. Everyone wants/needs a job and all the benefits that come from a strong economy. [X2]
5. People should enjoy liberties, rights, and opportunity so long as these don't harm others.
6. Marijuana should be legal.
7. Protect Social Security.
8. Children should be allowed to walk to school or go to the playground (or, really, wherever) on their own without some worry wort busybody with nothing better to do calling the cops on their parents. [clarified to mean that children should be safe to do so]
9. All children should have access to an education.
10. Drone strikes should not be used.
11. No amount of collateral damage is acceptable.
12. Nobody should have to decide between bankruptcy and seeing a doctor [or, the cost of healthcare is out of control] [X3]
13. Death penalty is sometimes the appropriate punishment.
14. Stealing is wrong.
15. Nuclear power is a responsible way to generate electricity with minimal carbon emissions.
16. Animals shouldn't be tortured.
17. A strong U.S. military is essential to both our national defense and the maintenance of stability throughout the world.
Last edited by Kurth on Fri May 11, 2018 5:50 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
- Kurth
- Posts: 5911
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
- Location: Portland
Re: How Divided are We?
The freedom to practice the religion of your choice (or none) is an essential right, and theocracies are inherently bad forms of government.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
- GreenGoo
- Posts: 42343
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
- Location: Ottawa, ON
Re: How Divided are We?
Fiscally responsible government.
- LawBeefaroni
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 55367
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
- Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything
Re: How Divided are We?
The 21st Amendment.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
MYT
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
MYT
- GreenGoo
- Posts: 42343
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
- Location: Ottawa, ON
Re: How Divided are We?
I love the idea that alcohol was contentious enough to amend the constitution twice in modern times, but guns are somehow untouchable because at one point hundreds of years ago a king wanted more money.
Sorry for the digression.
I'll add: Economy. Everyone wants/needs a job and all the benefits that come from a strong economy.
Sorry for the digression.
I'll add: Economy. Everyone wants/needs a job and all the benefits that come from a strong economy.
- YellowKing
- Posts: 30197
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:02 pm
Re: How Divided are We?
On a very basic level, we all want to be able to support our families. Which is why despite all the finger pointing and gnashing of teeth, it always comes down to "It's the economy, stupid."
- Holman
- Posts: 28994
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
- Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon
Re: How Divided are We?
Everyone on this forum believes that people should enjoy liberties, rights, and opportunity so long as these don't harm others. Where we differ is what constitutes harm.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
- em2nought
- Posts: 5373
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:48 am
Re: How Divided are We?
Personally, I would rephrase that to "recover from the Obama and Trump presidency's" and my statement would be
It's a woman's right to choose.
"Four more years!" "Pause." LMAO
- Kraken
- Posts: 43794
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
- Location: The Hub of the Universe
- Contact:
Re: How Divided are We?
I can think of two:
Marijuana should be legal, and
Protect Social Security.
While GOP politicians aren't necessarily on board with either of those, their voters are.
Marijuana should be legal, and
Protect Social Security.
While GOP politicians aren't necessarily on board with either of those, their voters are.
-
- Posts: 36421
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:17 pm
- Location: Nowhere you want to be.
Re: How Divided are We?
As a reminder, one party's base (the diametrically opposed view in my case) is highly supportive of a theocratic government (or aspects of one such as religion in schools) as long as it's their religion and highly in favor of curtailing rights of those not like them.
Otherwise, I think we can all agree the Packers suck.
Otherwise, I think we can all agree the Packers suck.
Black Lives Matter
- Moliere
- Posts: 12370
- Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
- Location: Walking through a desert land
Re: How Divided are We?
Democrats have been just as terrible on marijuana enforcement. Like same sex marriage, most politicians are lagging the general population's views.
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
- NickAragua
- Posts: 6112
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:20 pm
- Location: Boston, MA
Re: How Divided are We?
Children should be allowed to walk to school or go to the playground (or, really, wherever) on their own without some worrywort busybody with nothing better to do calling the cops on their parents.
Black Lives Matter
- Sepiche
- Posts: 8112
- Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:00 pm
- Location: Olathe, KS
Re: How Divided are We?
Really? So when AG Sessions rolled back the Obama era rule to not go after states with legal marijuana that's "just as terrible" as what Democrats are doing?
I'm sure you can dig up individual Democrats who are against legalization, but there's no equivalence between the Republican stance on marijuana and the Democratic position, wishful thinking of Libertarians not withstanding.
- Kurth
- Posts: 5911
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
- Location: Portland
Re: How Divided are We?
Please focus on the task at hand! No
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
- Fitzy
- Posts: 2030
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:15 pm
- Location: Rockville, MD
- msteelers
- Posts: 7173
- Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:30 pm
- Location: Port Saint Lucie, Florida
- Contact:
Re: How divided are we?
Chic-fil-a is delicious.
- Skinypupy
- Posts: 20393
- Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:12 am
- Location: Utah
Re: How divided are we?
I had a disturbingly difficult time coming up with an answer to this question. In general terms, I suppose it would be that all children should have access to an education
We would then proceed to have wildly different answers on how both "education" and "access" are defined, the government's role in the process, the quality of that education, and on and on and on...
We would then proceed to have wildly different answers on how both "education" and "access" are defined, the government's role in the process, the quality of that education, and on and on and on...
When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come.
- Moliere
- Posts: 12370
- Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
- Location: Walking through a desert land
Re: How Divided are We?
Judging From Prosecutions, Obama Is 80 Percent Worse Than Bush on Medical MarijuanaSepiche wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 1:59 pm Really? So when AG Sessions rolled back the Obama era rule to not go after states with legal marijuana that's "just as terrible" as what Democrats are doing?
According to a new report from California NORML, "over 335 defendants have been charged with federal crimes related to medical marijuana in states with medical marijuana laws." Despite Barack Obama's promises of prosecutorial restraint in this area, "153 medical marijuana cases have been brought in the 4¼ years of the Obama administration, nearly as many as under the 8 years of the Bush administration (163)." In other words, Obama is averaging 36 medical marijuana prosecutions a year, compared to 20 a year under his predecessor. And although Attorney General Eric Holder has repeatedly claimed the Justice Department is not targeting suppliers who comply with state law, "the DOJ has targeted many facilities that were in full compliance with local laws and regulations."
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
- Isgrimnur
- Posts: 82308
- Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
- Location: Chookity pok
- Contact:
Re: How divided are we?
What were the corresponding California numbers during that time frame?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
- LordMortis
- Posts: 70222
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm
Re: How divided are we?
It's sad. I can come up with general statements easily enough but when I get down to specifics, coming up with a thing is difficult.. Really just looking to see how challenging it is to come up with such a list
It's easy to say I believe in "state's rights", less government where possible, the 2nd amendments, Parents being allowed to be parents, etc... The list is long long long.
But the I put these generalities in to specifics. In to "see this thing here" and base on my real conversations, I'm hard pressed to come to terms. I'd like to at least end up at the Golden Rule. Just let 'em be, but even then I break down to this thing here and I can't understand how them is is doing is something they see as the golden rule.
For someone trying to stay out of "us vs them" traps for most of his adult life, the last six or ten years has totally left my sails sans wind.
Moliere wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 3:27 pmJudging From Prosecutions, Obama Is 80 Percent Worse Than Bush on Medical MarijuanaSepiche wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 1:59 pm Really? So when AG Sessions rolled back the Obama era rule to not go after states with legal marijuana that's "just as terrible" as what Democrats are doing?
According to a new report from California NORML, "over 335 defendants have been charged with federal crimes related to medical marijuana in states with medical marijuana laws." Despite Barack Obama's promises of prosecutorial restraint in this area, "153 medical marijuana cases have been brought in the 4¼ years of the Obama administration, nearly as many as under the 8 years of the Bush administration (163)." In other words, Obama is averaging 36 medical marijuana prosecutions a year, compared to 20 a year under his predecessor. And although Attorney General Eric Holder has repeatedly claimed the Justice Department is not targeting suppliers who comply with state law, "the DOJ has targeted many facilities that were in full compliance with local laws and regulations."
This is my memory. Obama sat on a podium and talked a game with Holder laughed and locked people away at an unheard of rate.
- Jaymann
- Posts: 19494
- Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
- Location: California
Re: How divided are we?
Drone strikes should not be used.
No amount of collateral damage is acceptable.
No amount of collateral damage is acceptable.
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Black Lives Matter
]==(:::::::::::::>
Black Lives Matter
- Holman
- Posts: 28994
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
- Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon
Re: How divided are we?
Honestly, I doubt we all agree on this.
Drones are just aircraft. They have a role like any other. The debate is over what that is.
And even the Pentagon says no amount of collateral damage is "acceptable." The challenge is to accomplish a mission with the best possible planning to prevent it.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
- hepcat
- Posts: 51502
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!
Re: How Divided are We?
I agree and disagree at the same time. Some proponents of free range parenting go too far. As with everything, there are abuses.NickAragua wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 1:44 pm Children should be allowed to walk to school or go to the playground (or, really, wherever) on their own without some worrywort busybody with nothing better to do calling the cops on their parents.
He won. Period.
- Vorret
- Posts: 9613
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:37 pm
- Location: Drummondville, QC
Re: How divided are we?
Nobody should have to decide between bankruptcy and seeing a doctor.
Isgrimnur wrote:
His name makes me think of a small, burrowing rodent anyway.
His name makes me think of a small, burrowing rodent anyway.
- ImLawBoy
- Forum Admin
- Posts: 14981
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:49 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL
- Contact:
Re: How divided are we?
The exercise isn't to find something we all agree on. It's to find something that someone who is the political opposite of you likely agrees with you on. In practice, this likely means a liberal would espouse a typically conservative view, and a conservative would espouse a typically liberal view.
Kurth wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 10:58 am So here’s an exercise: Replying from the perspective of someone who you believe to be 180 degrees opposite from you on the political spectrum, make one statement on a political/social issue you imagine that person (hypothetical or real) holds a firm conviction about that you agree with as well.
That's my purse! I don't know you!
- NickAragua
- Posts: 6112
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:20 pm
- Location: Boston, MA
Re: How divided are we?
Obviously, there are specifics, but the assumption should probably be that the streets of suburbia aren't filled with pedophile kidnappers/murderers and that you're not sending your kid out into a warzone filled with landmines.hepcat wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 4:00 pmI agree and disagree at the same time. Some proponents of free range parenting go too far. As with everything, there are abuses.NickAragua wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 1:44 pm Children should be allowed to walk to school or go to the playground (or, really, wherever) on their own without some worrywort busybody with nothing better to do calling the cops on their parents.
edit: I mean, unless you're living in Homs or something, then you should probably keep your kid on a tighter leash.
Black Lives Matter
-
- Posts: 36421
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:17 pm
- Location: Nowhere you want to be.
Re: How divided are we?
Boycott against that hate-mongering company is still in full force.
Black Lives Matter
-
- Posts: 36421
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:17 pm
- Location: Nowhere you want to be.
Re: How divided are we?
You have to remember that hepcat lives in a perpetual state of shell-shock after his bike was stolen from his porch. He won't even leave the house without a national guard squad covering point.NickAragua wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 4:12 pmObviously, there are specifics, but the assumption should probably be that the streets of suburbia aren't filled with pedophile kidnappers/murderers and that you're not sending your kid out into a warzone filled with landmines.hepcat wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 4:00 pmI agree and disagree at the same time. Some proponents of free range parenting go too far. As with everything, there are abuses.NickAragua wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 1:44 pm Children should be allowed to walk to school or go to the playground (or, really, wherever) on their own without some worrywort busybody with nothing better to do calling the cops on their parents.
edit: I mean, unless you're living in Homs or something, then you should probably keep your kid on a tighter leash.
While the odds of bad things happening in remote suburbia where I dwell are greater than zero, it's hardly worth being overly concerned about. If my 4 year old told me today he was going to the playground (approximately 2 city blocks distant, mostly along a bike path); I'd probably prefer to let him (then clandestinely spy on him the first time). But I don't yet know the neighbors well enough to determine if this would make me a pariah.
Black Lives Matter
- Fitzy
- Posts: 2030
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:15 pm
- Location: Rockville, MD
Re: How divided are we?
He only gets out of the house one weekend a month and two weeks a year?
-
- Posts: 36421
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:17 pm
- Location: Nowhere you want to be.
Re: How divided are we?
That sounds about right.
Black Lives Matter
- Skinypupy
- Posts: 20393
- Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:12 am
- Location: Utah
Re: How divided are we?
Not sure which side you're arguing from, but I see very little evidence that any conservatives believe this.
Seems to be quite the opposite, actually. As far as I can tell, the prevailing opinion (based on what they're proposing) is that If your job doesn't provide benefits and you can't pay for it yourself, then tough shit. It's your problem to deal with.
When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come.
- coopasonic
- Posts: 20992
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:43 pm
- Location: Dallas-ish
Re: How divided are we?
I think the point of agreement would be that the cost of healthcare is out of control.Skinypupy wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 4:46 pmNot sure which side you're arguing from, but I see very little evidence that any conservatives believe this.
Seems to be quite the opposite, actually. As far as I can tell, the prevailing opinion (based on what they're proposing) is that If your job doesn't provide benefits and you can't pay for it yourself, then tough shit. It's your problem to deal with.
-Coop
Black Lives Matter
Black Lives Matter
- Kraken
- Posts: 43794
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
- Location: The Hub of the Universe
- Contact:
Re: How divided are we?
Well sure, but I think Kurth's question implies policy: what, if anything, should be done about it?coopasonic wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 5:11 pmI think the point of agreement would be that the cost of healthcare is out of control.Skinypupy wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 4:46 pmNot sure which side you're arguing from, but I see very little evidence that any conservatives believe this.
Seems to be quite the opposite, actually. As far as I can tell, the prevailing opinion (based on what they're proposing) is that If your job doesn't provide benefits and you can't pay for it yourself, then tough shit. It's your problem to deal with.
- gilraen
- Posts: 4321
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:45 pm
- Location: Broomfield, CO
Re: How divided are we?
Death penalty is sometimes the appropriate punishment.
- LordMortis
- Posts: 70222
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm
Re: How divided are we?
That's a perfect example of how difficult the question posed in this thread is for me. I see with eye to eye with the political generalization. 10 seconds of specifics and I find I am incapable of being part of the conversation with the "perspective of someone who you believe to be 180 degrees opposite from you". I'm worn down. I've lost, when I used believe "why is it a battle? Why do we even call it a debate? It's a conversation. A problem in search of a solution." I'm broken.coopasonic wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 5:11 pm I think the point of agreement would be that the cost of healthcare is out of control.
- Kurth
- Posts: 5911
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
- Location: Portland
Re: How divided are we?
Actually, no. The idea is what common ideals/goals do we share at a high level. We're always going to have disagreements (deep disagreements at times) about what policies to implement to achieve those goals, but if we are so divided that we don't even have many goals we can agree on . . . it's all FUBAR and McCain is just whistling in the wind.Kraken wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 6:07 pmWell sure, but I think Kurth's question implies policy: what, if anything, should be done about it?coopasonic wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 5:11 pmI think the point of agreement would be that the cost of healthcare is out of control.Skinypupy wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 4:46 pmNot sure which side you're arguing from, but I see very little evidence that any conservatives believe this.
Seems to be quite the opposite, actually. As far as I can tell, the prevailing opinion (based on what they're proposing) is that If your job doesn't provide benefits and you can't pay for it yourself, then tough shit. It's your problem to deal with.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
- hepcat
- Posts: 51502
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!
Re: How divided are we?
I live in Chicago. That’s a Thursday.NickAragua wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 4:12 pm Obviously, there are specifics, but the assumption should probably be that the streets of suburbia aren't filled with pedophile kidnappers/murderers and that you're not sending your kid out into a warzone filled with landmines.
He won. Period.
- Combustible Lemur
- Posts: 3961
- Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:17 pm
- Location: houston, TX
Re: How divided are we?
P
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Is Scott home? thump thump thump Crash ......No.
- hepcat
- Posts: 51502
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!
Re: How divided are we?
Jesus, I can’t believe you remember that I had that happen.
Wait...you got a new bike around that time, didn’t you? AND a bunch of hair care products too, I believe.
He won. Period.
- YellowKing
- Posts: 30197
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:02 pm
Re: How divided are we?
The problem is not that we don't have a lot in common. We do. The problem is that the two political party platforms have told us what the issues are and how to believe on those issues.
Think about it - what are the chances, in a world of no political parties, that people would evenly divide among two different belief systems filled with dozens of issues? Astronomical. We've only become so divisive as a nation as the political party platforms did. The tail has been wagging the dog for years.
We are all victims of an artificial construct put into place to keep the powerful in power, suppress free thinking, and keep the sheep in line.
Until we wake up as a country and realize that, we're fucked.
Think about it - what are the chances, in a world of no political parties, that people would evenly divide among two different belief systems filled with dozens of issues? Astronomical. We've only become so divisive as a nation as the political party platforms did. The tail has been wagging the dog for years.
We are all victims of an artificial construct put into place to keep the powerful in power, suppress free thinking, and keep the sheep in line.
Until we wake up as a country and realize that, we're fucked.