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All Things Saudi

For discussion of religion and politics

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by $iljanus » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:29 pm


Smoove_B wrote:Seriously. The man was a legal permanent resident of the United States and the PotUS just shrugged his shoulders and said, "What are you going to do, right?"
Well, it's not like he was a registered Republican. Some lives just have more value.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Holman » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:38 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:26 pm
The good news is that the Turkish government, by and large not being the biggest fans of the Saudi government, seem to be happy to get to the actual truth here. Obviously the Turkish government is also terrible, but they're probably the better bets to get to the bottom of this.
Unfortunately, Erdogan is probably less interested in publishing the truth than in what Trump and the Saudis can do for Erdogan.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by AWS260 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:10 am


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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by El Guapo » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:59 am

AWS260 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:10 am
The NY Times dug up a whole bunch of pictures of one of the suspects with the crown prince.
Apparently at least 7 of the suspects had close ties to the crown prince.

Which, I mean, obviously. It's clear that the Saudis are responsible, and MBS is clearly the guy in charge at this point, so it seems unlikely that this would happen without the approval of him or one of his lieutenants.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by LordMortis » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:02 am

El Guapo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:59 am
AWS260 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:10 am
The NY Times dug up a whole bunch of pictures of one of the suspects with the crown prince.
Apparently at least 7 of the suspects had close ties to the crown prince.

Which, I mean, obviously. It's clear that the Saudis are responsible, and MBS is clearly the guy in charge at this point, so it seems unlikely that this would happen without the approval of him or one of his lieutenants.
You are confused. He doesn't even know them and besides they were just tourists. There was clock they wanted to see so much they saw it twice.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:06 am

Also it didn't happen. Also also it was an accident.

It's kind of fun watching Drumpf convince the American people that assassinating American resident dissident journalists is not a problem.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by El Guapo » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:13 am

Side note: Ed Rogers, who writes op-eds for the Post (and who is also super, super terrible) is also a lobbyist at a firm that (at least until recently) lobbied for the Saudi government. The Post evidently told Rogers to stop lobbying for the Saudis or GTFO. His firm recently ended their lobbying agreement with the Saudis, no doubt out of high principle.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by YellowKing » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:43 am

Anytime any issue comes up in which two sides can be taken, I just look to what the worst possible side would be to take. And invariably Trump does it. Every. Single. Time.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by El Guapo » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:46 am

YellowKing wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:43 am
Anytime any issue comes up in which two sides can be taken, I just look to what the worst possible side would be to take. And invariably Trump does it. Every. Single. Time.
He has to be a Duke fan though, right?

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Ralph-Wiggum » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:49 am

More details are coming out from Turkish officials, based on audio they have:

Spoilered because it's gross.
Spoiler:
After he was shown into the office of the Saudi consul, Mohammad al-Otaibi, the agents seized Mr. Khashoggi almost immediately and began to beat and torture him, eventually cutting off his fingers, the senior Turkish official said.

“Do this outside. You will put me in trouble,” Mr. al-Otaibi, the consul, told them, according to the Turkish official and the report in Yeni Safak, both citing audio recordings said to have been obtained by Turkish intelligence.

“If you want to live when you come back to Arabia, shut up,” one of the agents replied, according to both the official and the newspaper.

As they cut off Mr. Khashoggi’s head and dismembered his body, a doctor of forensics who had been brought along for the dissection and disposal had some advice for the others, according to the senior Turkish official.

Listen to music, he told them, as he put on headphones himself. That was what he did to ease the tension when doing such work, the official said, describing the contents of the audio recording.
:puke-front:

Next line of reasoning from Trump: that could have been anyone being dismembered!

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Ralph-Wiggum » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:49 am

El Guapo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:46 am
YellowKing wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:43 am
Anytime any issue comes up in which two sides can be taken, I just look to what the worst possible side would be to take. And invariably Trump does it. Every. Single. Time.
He has to be a Duke fan though, right?
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Paingod » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:50 am

YellowKing wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:43 am
Anytime any issue comes up in which two sides can be taken, I just look to what the worst possible side would be to take. And invariably Trump does it. Every. Single. Time.
Coincidentally, each decision point has an angle that directly benefits him. That's the hallmark you should look for, not which is the worst side. You have to see which side is profitable for him, and you'll know which way he'll move. If you can find a way to stand so that some of the fallout lands to your benefit, it might not look so bad.

If you put a $100 bill in a SAW-style trap rigged with an innocent old lady on the other side, Trump would walk away grinning and $100 richer every time. It's not that he specifically hates old ladies. He just doesn't value them like he values money.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by YellowKing » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:12 pm

You guys need to be happy that I went Independent. Turning me into a Carolina fan is a bridge too far. :P

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Holman » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:18 pm

Paingod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:50 am

If you put a $100 bill in a SAW-style trap rigged with an innocent old lady on the other side, Trump would walk away grinning and $100 richer every time. It's not that he specifically hates old ladies. He just doesn't value them like he values money.
Your scenario seems silly until we realize that right now Trump is -literally- covering up a murder to protect his business interests.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Holman » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:26 pm

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:49 am
More details are coming out from Turkish officials, based on audio they have:

Spoilered because it's gross.
Spoiler:
After he was shown into the office of the Saudi consul, Mohammad al-Otaibi, the agents seized Mr. Khashoggi almost immediately and began to beat and torture him, eventually cutting off his fingers, the senior Turkish official said.

“Do this outside. You will put me in trouble,” Mr. al-Otaibi, the consul, told them, according to the Turkish official and the report in Yeni Safak, both citing audio recordings said to have been obtained by Turkish intelligence.

“If you want to live when you come back to Arabia, shut up,” one of the agents replied, according to both the official and the newspaper.

As they cut off Mr. Khashoggi’s head and dismembered his body, a doctor of forensics who had been brought along for the dissection and disposal had some advice for the others, according to the senior Turkish official.

Listen to music, he told them, as he put on headphones himself. That was what he did to ease the tension when doing such work, the official said, describing the contents of the audio recording.
:puke-front:

Next line of reasoning from Trump: that could have been anyone being dismembered!
Just for giggles, the Saudis' investigators should rule the death a suicide and make Trump go along with it.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Paingod » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:34 pm

That's not an interrogation gone wrong. As soon as you start cutting off body parts, you've crossed a line you can't walk back from. There's no accident there. I cannot imagine what he went through, or what the investigators have had to listen to and try to put together to get this far.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:40 pm

Paingod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:34 pm
That's not an interrogation gone wrong. As soon as you start cutting off body parts, you've crossed a line you can't walk back from. There's no accident there. I cannot imagine what he went through, or what the investigators have had to listen to and try to put together to get this far.
Apparently 7 minutes of torture before he died. That's not interrogation and it wasn't an accident because they cut off his head. They went in with the intent of killing him in a painful and gruesome manner and they achieved it.

I'm sure the Crown Prince received video.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by El Guapo » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:59 pm

Paingod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:34 pm
That's not an interrogation gone wrong. As soon as you start cutting off body parts, you've crossed a line you can't walk back from. There's no accident there. I cannot imagine what he went through, or what the investigators have had to listen to and try to put together to get this far.
Saudis Admit Journalist Khashoggi Died During Botched Assassination Attempt.
RIYADH, SAUDI ARABIA—In a press conference ahead of a meeting with U.S. secretary of state Mike Pompeo, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman admitted Tuesday that journalist Jamal Khashoggi died during a botched assassination attempt. “We lured Mr. Khashoggi to our consulate in Turkey for what was supposed to be a straightforward, routine execution, but things went off the rails at some point during the torture portion, and he accidentally bled out,” said the crown prince, adding that under normal circumstances, journalists who negatively portray the Saudi regime are eliminated efficiently and without international uproar. “We offer our sincere apologies to the Khashoggi family for mishandling Jamal’s slaughter. This should have been a quick in-and-out death and dismemberment situation, not the drawn-out, hours-long bloodbath it turned into. We flubbed this one big time.” The crown prince also assured journalists that Saudi leaders plan to implement new murder guidelines to standardize future assassinations and reduce instances of bungled hits.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Smoove_B » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:59 pm

Holman wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:18 pm
Your scenario seems silly until we realize that right now Trump is -literally- covering up a murder to protect his business interests.
Whoa, whoa whoa - what's with the rush to pass judgement? Why are the American people so fixated on presumed guilty? I'm sure the Prince was just hanging out with his friends PJ and Squi, having some skis. He doesn't know anything!

Also, I wish that was hyperbole, but he really did Kavanaugh the murder of a journalist.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by coopasonic » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:31 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:59 pm
Saudis Admit Journalist Khashoggi Died During Botched Assassination Attempt.
RIYADH, SAUDI ARABIA—In a press conference ahead of a meeting with U.S. secretary of state Mike Pompeo, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman admitted Tuesday that journalist Jamal Khashoggi died during a botched assassination attempt. “We lured Mr. Khashoggi to our consulate in Turkey for what was supposed to be a straightforward, routine execution, but things went off the rails at some point during the torture portion, and he accidentally bled out,” said the crown prince, adding that under normal circumstances, journalists who negatively portray the Saudi regime are eliminated efficiently and without international uproar. “We offer our sincere apologies to the Khashoggi family for mishandling Jamal’s slaughter. This should have been a quick in-and-out death and dismemberment situation, not the drawn-out, hours-long bloodbath it turned into. We flubbed this one big time.” The crown prince also assured journalists that Saudi leaders plan to implement new murder guidelines to standardize future assassinations and reduce instances of bungled hits.
I am ashamed to admit I got halfway through the quote before I had to check the source.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by LordMortis » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:46 pm

Heh, I got to "said the crown prince"

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Ralph-Wiggum » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:51 pm

Paingod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:34 pm
That's not an interrogation gone wrong.
Maybe most interrogations in Saudi Arabia start with some light finger cutting?

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Paingod » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:54 pm

coopasonic wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:31 pm
I am ashamed to admit I got halfway through the quote before I had to check the source.
You're not alone. I was stunned by the frank honesty for a moment before I moved back up and hovered over the link. :doh:
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Holman » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:10 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:40 pm
Paingod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:34 pm
That's not an interrogation gone wrong. As soon as you start cutting off body parts, you've crossed a line you can't walk back from. There's no accident there. I cannot imagine what he went through, or what the investigators have had to listen to and try to put together to get this far.
Apparently 7 minutes of torture before he died. That's not interrogation and it wasn't an accident because they cut off his head. They went in with the intent of killing him in a painful and gruesome manner and they achieved it.

I'm sure the Crown Prince received video.
Cutting off the fingers makes me think they really don't care that this got out. Khashoggi was a writer. It sends a message.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by hepcat » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:16 pm

coopasonic wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:31 pm
El Guapo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:59 pm
Saudis Admit Journalist Khashoggi Died During Botched Assassination Attempt.
RIYADH, SAUDI ARABIA—In a press conference ahead of a meeting with U.S. secretary of state Mike Pompeo, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman admitted Tuesday that journalist Jamal Khashoggi died during a botched assassination attempt. “We lured Mr. Khashoggi to our consulate in Turkey for what was supposed to be a straightforward, routine execution, but things went off the rails at some point during the torture portion, and he accidentally bled out,” said the crown prince, adding that under normal circumstances, journalists who negatively portray the Saudi regime are eliminated efficiently and without international uproar. “We offer our sincere apologies to the Khashoggi family for mishandling Jamal’s slaughter. This should have been a quick in-and-out death and dismemberment situation, not the drawn-out, hours-long bloodbath it turned into. We flubbed this one big time.” The crown prince also assured journalists that Saudi leaders plan to implement new murder guidelines to standardize future assassinations and reduce instances of bungled hits.
I am ashamed to admit I got halfway through the quote before I had to check the source.
Don't feel bad. I did the same thing. :oops:
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Max Peck » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:07 pm

One point in all of this is confusing to me. Is "doctor of forensics" a Saudi euphemism for "enhanced interrogation specialist" or "cleaner"? Or have they combined those roles for the sake of efficiency?
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Paingod » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:10 pm

I imagined "The Wolf" from Pulp Fiction.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Enough » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:49 am
More details are coming out from Turkish officials, based on audio they have:

Spoilered because it's gross.
Spoiler:
After he was shown into the office of the Saudi consul, Mohammad al-Otaibi, the agents seized Mr. Khashoggi almost immediately and began to beat and torture him, eventually cutting off his fingers, the senior Turkish official said.

“Do this outside. You will put me in trouble,” Mr. al-Otaibi, the consul, told them, according to the Turkish official and the report in Yeni Safak, both citing audio recordings said to have been obtained by Turkish intelligence.

“If you want to live when you come back to Arabia, shut up,” one of the agents replied, according to both the official and the newspaper.

As they cut off Mr. Khashoggi’s head and dismembered his body, a doctor of forensics who had been brought along for the dissection and disposal had some advice for the others, according to the senior Turkish official.

Listen to music, he told them, as he put on headphones himself. That was what he did to ease the tension when doing such work, the official said, describing the contents of the audio recording.
:puke-front:

Next line of reasoning from Trump: that could have been anyone being dismembered!
Welp he was right.
Saudi Arabia's Consul General in Istanbul was sacked today and placed under investigation over the alleged torture and murder of a dissident journalist.

Mohammad al-Otaibi, who fled Turkey after the alleged killing of Jamal Khashoggi, has been relieved of his post and will face an investigation, according to an official government statement.

Mr al-Otaibi is said to have been recorded in a seven-minute audio clip during the alleged torture of Mr Khashoggi, saying: "Do this outside; you’re going to get me in trouble."
This entire incident is so bone-chilling awful.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Max Peck » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:52 pm

Hmmm, what would Jesus do...
Evangelical Christian leader Pat Robertson called this week for Americans to “cool the rhetoric” on Saudi Arabia over the apparent killing of U.S. resident Jamal Khashoggi because the Middle Eastern nation is an ally and has a lucrative arms deal with the United States.

Khashoggi, a Saudi citizen and Washington Post contributor, is believed to have been killed by Saudi operatives in the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul. He entered the building on Oct. 2 to pick up a document certifying his divorce so he could remarry. He has not been seen since.

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) has called for the United States to “sanction the hell out of Saudi Arabia.” The Middle Eastern kingdom has warned that it will retaliate if sanctions are put in place.

“I just want to cool down the temper of those who are screaming blood for the Saudis,” Robertson said on his “700 Club” program Monday. “Look, these people are key allies. Our main enemy in the Middle East is Iran, and the Saudis stand up against Iran.”

He added: “I don’t think on this issue that we need to pull sanctions and get tough. I just think it’s a mistake.”

Citing the $110 billion U.S.-Saudi arms deal, of which only $14.5 billion is finalized, he said, “It’ll be a lot of money coming to our coffers, and it’s not something that you want to blow up willy-nilly.”
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Paingod » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:57 am

Max Peck wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:52 pm
Hmmm, what would Jesus do...
Sounds like he'd turn the other cheek so they could cut it off and jam a wad of 100's up his ass in compensation.

I'm very disappointed in ... everything about this.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by hepcat » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:50 am

I don't actually consider Evangelicals to be Christians.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by LordMortis » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:05 am

Enough wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm
Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:49 am
More details are coming out from Turkish officials, based on audio they have:

Spoilered because it's gross.
Spoiler:
After he was shown into the office of the Saudi consul, Mohammad al-Otaibi, the agents seized Mr. Khashoggi almost immediately and began to beat and torture him, eventually cutting off his fingers, the senior Turkish official said.

“Do this outside. You will put me in trouble,” Mr. al-Otaibi, the consul, told them, according to the Turkish official and the report in Yeni Safak, both citing audio recordings said to have been obtained by Turkish intelligence.

“If you want to live when you come back to Arabia, shut up,” one of the agents replied, according to both the official and the newspaper.

As they cut off Mr. Khashoggi’s head and dismembered his body, a doctor of forensics who had been brought along for the dissection and disposal had some advice for the others, according to the senior Turkish official.

Listen to music, he told them, as he put on headphones himself. That was what he did to ease the tension when doing such work, the official said, describing the contents of the audio recording.
:puke-front:

Next line of reasoning from Trump: that could have been anyone being dismembered!
Welp he was right.
Saudi Arabia's Consul General in Istanbul was sacked today and placed under investigation over the alleged torture and murder of a dissident journalist.

Mohammad al-Otaibi, who fled Turkey after the alleged killing of Jamal Khashoggi, has been relieved of his post and will face an investigation, according to an official government statement.

Mr al-Otaibi is said to have been recorded in a seven-minute audio clip during the alleged torture of Mr Khashoggi, saying: "Do this outside; you’re going to get me in trouble."
This entire incident is so bone-chilling awful.
Which is to say that the Crown Prince Saudi has more respect or fear for facts seeing the light of day than does our POTUS.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by hepcat » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:45 am

Because I find Fox News fascinating in a "wow, they're state run media and clearly proud of that fact", the headlines on their site right now aren't about the death of Khashoggi, they're about...wait for it...Hillary's emails and Benghazi. :doh:
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:58 am

Max Peck wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:52 pm
Hmmm, what would Jesus do...
Citing the $110 billion U.S.-Saudi arms deal, of which only $14.5 billion is finalized, he said, “It’ll be a lot of money coming to our coffers, and it’s not something that you want to blow up willy-nilly.”
On the other side, do we really want to give $110B in state of the art weapons to a rogue nation that brazenly murders civilians?


Also, wasn't Bin Laden a Saudi? We gave him tons of arms and money despite (or maybe because of?) his reputation because it suited us at the time. And we all know how that turned out.

I know they're a strategic asset in the region but this kind of shit from Robertson is all about biblical end times mumbo-jumbo.
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El Guapo
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by El Guapo » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:42 am

hepcat wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:45 am
Because I find Fox News fascinating in a "wow, they're state run media and clearly proud of that fact", the headlines on their site right now aren't about the death of Khashoggi, they're about...wait for it...Hillary's emails and Benghazi. :doh:
I can see the appeal of working for Fox News - you only need to write maybe half a dozen stories and then you can re-use them endlessly with only slight tinkering.

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Chaz
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Chaz » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:55 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:58 am
Max Peck wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:52 pm
Hmmm, what would Jesus do...
Citing the $110 billion U.S.-Saudi arms deal, of which only $14.5 billion is finalized, he said, “It’ll be a lot of money coming to our coffers, and it’s not something that you want to blow up willy-nilly.”
On the other side, do we really want to give $110B in state of the art weapons to a rogue nation that brazenly murders civilians?


Also, wasn't Bin Laden a Saudi? We gave him tons of arms and money despite (or maybe because of?) his reputation because it suited us at the time. And we all know how that turned out.

I know they're a strategic asset in the region but this kind of shit from Robertson is all about biblical end times mumbo-jumbo.
We've been doing this for a while already. Saudi Arabia is using weapons we've been selling them to wage war on Yemen, which has been killing thousands of civilians, and we're totally fine with that. Why should one journalist being brutally murdered change the math, right?
I can't imagine, even at my most inebriated, hearing a bouncer offering me an hour with a stripper for only $1,400 and thinking That sounds like a reasonable idea.-Two Sheds

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Enough
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Enough » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:56 am

Chaz wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:55 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:58 am
Max Peck wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:52 pm
Hmmm, what would Jesus do...
Citing the $110 billion U.S.-Saudi arms deal, of which only $14.5 billion is finalized, he said, “It’ll be a lot of money coming to our coffers, and it’s not something that you want to blow up willy-nilly.”
On the other side, do we really want to give $110B in state of the art weapons to a rogue nation that brazenly murders civilians?


Also, wasn't Bin Laden a Saudi? We gave him tons of arms and money despite (or maybe because of?) his reputation because it suited us at the time. And we all know how that turned out.

I know they're a strategic asset in the region but this kind of shit from Robertson is all about biblical end times mumbo-jumbo.
We've been doing this for a while already. Saudi Arabia is using weapons we've been selling them to wage war on Yemen, which has been killing thousands of civilians, and we're totally fine with that. Why should one journalist being brutally murdered change the math, right?
Clearly Jesus prefers the petro-dollar.
My blog (mostly photos): Fort Ephemera - My Flickr Photostream

“You only get one sunrise and one sunset a day, and you only get so many days on the planet. A good photographer does the math and doesn’t waste either.” ―Galen Rowell

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Enough
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Enough » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:56 pm

My blog (mostly photos): Fort Ephemera - My Flickr Photostream

“You only get one sunrise and one sunset a day, and you only get so many days on the planet. A good photographer does the math and doesn’t waste either.” ―Galen Rowell

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hepcat
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by hepcat » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:03 pm

14 more car accidents by tomorrow morning, I'm guessing. They'll blame it on letting women drive probably.
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stessier
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by stessier » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:34 pm

I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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