RIP, George H. W. Bush

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El Guapo
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by El Guapo »

Jaymann wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:39 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:31 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:15 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:57 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:52 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:22 pm We only have multiple centuries of opportunity for criticism. We should get started as soon as possible.
Pretty sure I have a more limited window than you. Why procrastinate?
If that's the best use of your limited time left, carry on.
Do you think it's too soon for critical assessments of the H.W. Bush presidency? Assuming that they're respectful - e.g., "I think he made mistakes on his AIDS policies". If yes, at what point would it be the right time approximately?
You make it sound like we haven't been critics of his presidency since '88.
Well he did tie with Nixon for second place in the Worst President of the Last Century poll. Strangely Carter edged them both out for worst.
I suppose that makes sense, since Democrats are likely to be mixed on H.W. because he was a Republican, while conservatives have basically decided that H.W. Bush was the devil for agreeing to raise taxes.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Holman wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:27 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:13 am
I'm under no illusions. He certainly knew where a lot of bodies were buried. But it was more of a "rough men stand ready in the night" thing than a "what can I get out of this" thing. And it's what we needed at the time.
Of course the point of the cartoon is Bush's neglect of the AIDS crisis, which was precisely the opposite of what was needed at the time.

I'm thinking in a much broader scope. Yeah, AIDS Jesus may have some issues with Bush but not ADA Jesus. Not a lot of other Jesuses. Overall, he was the right guy at the time.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by El Guapo »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:47 pm
Holman wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:27 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:13 am
I'm under no illusions. He certainly knew where a lot of bodies were buried. But it was more of a "rough men stand ready in the night" thing than a "what can I get out of this" thing. And it's what we needed at the time.
Of course the point of the cartoon is Bush's neglect of the AIDS crisis, which was precisely the opposite of what was needed at the time.

I'm thinking in a much broader scope. Yeah, AIDS Jesus may have some issues with Bush but not ADA Jesus. Not a lot of other Jesuses. Overall, he was the right guy at the time.
What about "No New Taxes" Jesus?
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by LordMortis »

Raising taxes is why I assume the right betrayed him. Having never been left or right but having been at the age where I would have still been in the military if they hadn't said no and with so many of my friends deployed, Iraq still haunts me, even if he was the most justified of anyone before or since to take us there, right up until his took us to Afghanistan (not back to Iraq).

I associate AIDS neglect with the Reagan years and taxes and as part of the causal connection of paying for things, even things I don't want.
Last edited by LordMortis on Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by LawBeefaroni »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:48 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:47 pm
Holman wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:27 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:13 am
I'm under no illusions. He certainly knew where a lot of bodies were buried. But it was more of a "rough men stand ready in the night" thing than a "what can I get out of this" thing. And it's what we needed at the time.
Of course the point of the cartoon is Bush's neglect of the AIDS crisis, which was precisely the opposite of what was needed at the time.

I'm thinking in a much broader scope. Yeah, AIDS Jesus may have some issues with Bush but not ADA Jesus. Not a lot of other Jesuses. Overall, he was the right guy at the time.
What about "No New Taxes" Jesus?
He's too secular to be guarding the pearly gates.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by Holman »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:22 pm We only have multiple centuries of opportunity for criticism. We should get started as soon as possible.
I'm thinking about the college kids I teach. They weren't there for the 1980s/90s. Many of them are fiercely focused on their accounting/business/STEM degrees and will never touch a history book. This week's coverage is probably 80% of everything they will ever hear in their lives about GHWB.

Obviously "Bush sucked ass and should be condemned" is ridiculously inappropriate, but so is "Here passes one of the greatest Americans of all time, a leader almost beyond reproach."

A leader's funeral is the perfect time for smart and measured consideration of their era and their legacy. Anything less is a disservice to our understanding of it. A republic needs open eyes, and right now its attention is focused on GHWB. We *should* be talking about the Bush years, and not in gauzy terms. A week from now this window will be closed.

I suspect that Bush (who almost certainly valued history over hype) would agree.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by Isgrimnur »

Bob Dole visited the casket.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by noxiousdog »

Holman wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:07 pm Obviously "Bush sucked ass and should be condemned" is ridiculously inappropriate, but so is "Here passes one of the greatest Americans of all time, a leader almost beyond reproach."

A leader's funeral is the perfect time for smart and measured consideration of their era and their legacy. Anything less is a disservice to our understanding of it. A republic needs open eyes, and right now its attention is focused on GHWB. We *should* be talking about the Bush years, and not in gauzy terms. A week from now this window will be closed.

I suspect that Bush (who almost certainly valued history over hype) would agree.
I'm pretty sure anyone who would be apathetic about presidential and US history a week after a presidential death isn't all that concerned with the the historical implications of 2 decade old administration.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Holman wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:07 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:22 pm We only have multiple centuries of opportunity for criticism. We should get started as soon as possible.
I'm thinking about the college kids I teach. They weren't there for the 1980s/90s. Many of them are fiercely focused on their accounting/business/STEM degrees and will never touch a history book. This week's coverage is probably 80% of everything they will ever hear in their lives about GHWB.

Their ignorance isn't reason to change centuries of mourning and funerary traditions.


A leader's funeral is the perfect time for smart and measured consideration of their era and their legacy. Anything less is a disservice to our understanding of it. A republic needs open eyes, and right now its attention is focused on GHWB. We *should* be talking about the Bush years, and not in gauzy terms. A week from now this window will be closed.
Their ignorance isn't reason for the rest of us to follow suit. One week? That's all we have to evaluate and discuss a president's life and service?
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by noxiousdog »

Holman wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:07 pm Obviously "Bush sucked ass and should be condemned" is ridiculously inappropriate, but so is "Here passes one of the greatest Americans of all time, a leader almost beyond reproach."
Also, I find it perfectly reasonable to respond to someone putting GHWB on Mount Rushmore with some perspective.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by Holman »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:26 pm
Holman wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:07 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:22 pm We only have multiple centuries of opportunity for criticism. We should get started as soon as possible.
I'm thinking about the college kids I teach. They weren't there for the 1980s/90s. Many of them are fiercely focused on their accounting/business/STEM degrees and will never touch a history book. This week's coverage is probably 80% of everything they will ever hear in their lives about GHWB.
Their ignorance isn't reason to change centuries of mourning and funerary traditions.
Are we--not the Bushes, not major public figures, but normal Americans and our families--actually engaged in mourning? Or are we watching a kind of spectacle being played mostly for TV ratings and political points?

I understand the need for periods of national mourning: 9/11, remembrance of war, tragic assassinations. But Bush's death is not a national trauma; it has been totally expected, and I really don't think those of not close to the circle of his life are truly grieving. We're remembering, so why shouldn't we remember as wisely as we can?
A leader's funeral is the perfect time for smart and measured consideration of their era and their legacy. Anything less is a disservice to our understanding of it. A republic needs open eyes, and right now its attention is focused on GHWB. We *should* be talking about the Bush years, and not in gauzy terms. A week from now this window will be closed.
Their ignorance isn't reason for the rest of us to follow suit. One week? That's all we have to evaluate and discuss a president's life and service?
You think national attention won't have moved on in a week?

Obviously this isn't the only opportunity, but it's the perfect opportunity (for, again, measured national discussion, if such a thing is still possible). We really have to take the teachable moments where we find them.

Again, I'm willing to bet that Bush would agree.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

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Holman wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:07 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:22 pm We only have multiple centuries of opportunity for criticism. We should get started as soon as possible.
I'm thinking about the college kids I teach. They weren't there for the 1980s/90s. Many of them are fiercely focused on their accounting/business/STEM degrees and will never touch a history book. This week's coverage is probably 80% of everything they will ever hear in their lives about GHWB.

Obviously "Bush sucked ass and should be condemned" is ridiculously inappropriate, but so is "Here passes one of the greatest Americans of all time, a leader almost beyond reproach."

A leader's funeral is the perfect time for smart and measured consideration of their era and their legacy. Anything less is a disservice to our understanding of it. A republic needs open eyes, and right now its attention is focused on GHWB. We *should* be talking about the Bush years, and not in gauzy terms. A week from now this window will be closed.

I suspect that Bush (who almost certainly valued history over hype) would agree.
+1.

I think keeping things positive is fine for EBG. This is R&P, and GHWB is only noteworthy to most people because he was a politician. Discussing his politics makes sense here and as Holman says, it is unlikely to come up again in the future. Grieving can be done in the other thread.

Imho.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

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Eh, I have no problem whatsoever with folks still being mad as hell (and expressing it) at Reagan and (to a slightly lesser extent) HW Bush for their homophobic non-responses to the AIDS crisis. But for me at least, it's possible to look past that to the rest of the man.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

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Holman wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:07 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:22 pm We only have multiple centuries of opportunity for criticism. We should get started as soon as possible.
I'm thinking about the college kids I teach. They weren't there for the 1980s/90s. Many of them are fiercely focused on their accounting/business/STEM degrees and will never touch a history book. This week's coverage is probably 80% of everything they will ever hear in their lives about GHWB.
He who fails to learn from history is doomed to take history classes.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by Isgrimnur »

Jaymann wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:14 pm
Holman wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:07 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:22 pm We only have multiple centuries of opportunity for criticism. We should get started as soon as possible.
I'm thinking about the college kids I teach. They weren't there for the 1980s/90s. Many of them are fiercely focused on their accounting/business/STEM degrees and will never touch a history book. This week's coverage is probably 80% of everything they will ever hear in their lives about GHWB.
He who fails to learn from history is doomed to take history classes.
Can I please be doomed without failing to learn from it?
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

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Pyperkub wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:13 pm Eh, I have no problem whatsoever with folks still being mad as hell (and expressing it) at Reagan and (to a slightly lesser extent) HW Bush for their homophobic non-responses to the AIDS crisis. But for me at least, it's possible to look past that to the rest of the man.
Unless you had aids in the 80's/early 90's. Then none of the rest of it matters. Literally nothing else would matter. On the plus side, you're still alive to look past it. I wasn't going to make any judgment posts re:GWHB but since you brought it up, I'll comment on this aspect a little. It's kind of a big deal for a lot of people. It doesn't define my view of GWHB, but I'm sympathetic to those that it does.

P.S. I realize you acknowledge their plight. I'm just adding emphasis.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by Pyperkub »

GreenGoo wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:29 pm
Pyperkub wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:13 pm Eh, I have no problem whatsoever with folks still being mad as hell (and expressing it) at Reagan and (to a slightly lesser extent) HW Bush for their homophobic non-responses to the AIDS crisis. But for me at least, it's possible to look past that to the rest of the man.
Unless you had aids in the 80's/early 90's. Then none of the rest of it matters. Literally nothing else would matter. On the plus side, you're still alive to look past it. I wasn't going to make any judgment posts re:GWHB but since you brought it up, I'll comment on this aspect a little. It's kind of a big deal for a lot of people. It doesn't define my view of GWHB, but I'm sympathetic to those that it does.
I completely understand, but I can also see him of a product of his time. I grew up in the Bay Area and have spent most of my life in CA. Believe me, I understand.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

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Pyperkub wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:34 pm I completely understand, but I can also see him of a product of his time. I grew up in the Bay Area and have spent most of my life in CA. Believe me, I understand.
Yes, I realize that. I added a little text to my post in an attempt to clarify that I wasn't being critical of you personally.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by noxiousdog »

Pyperkub wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:34 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:29 pm
Pyperkub wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:13 pm Eh, I have no problem whatsoever with folks still being mad as hell (and expressing it) at Reagan and (to a slightly lesser extent) HW Bush for their homophobic non-responses to the AIDS crisis. But for me at least, it's possible to look past that to the rest of the man.
Unless you had aids in the 80's/early 90's. Then none of the rest of it matters. Literally nothing else would matter. On the plus side, you're still alive to look past it. I wasn't going to make any judgment posts re:GWHB but since you brought it up, I'll comment on this aspect a little. It's kind of a big deal for a lot of people. It doesn't define my view of GWHB, but I'm sympathetic to those that it does.
I completely understand, but I can also see him of a product of his time. I grew up in the Bay Area and have spent most of my life in CA. Believe me, I understand.
Were there national leaders around the world handling it any better? And by better I mean not ignoring the epidemic.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by GreenGoo »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:46 pm Were there national leaders around the world handling it any better? And by better I mean not ignoring the epidemic.
What difference does that make?

We can criticize them individually if you think that would be better?
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by noxiousdog »

GreenGoo wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:49 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:46 pm Were there national leaders around the world handling it any better? And by better I mean not ignoring the epidemic.
What difference does that make?

We can criticize them individually if you think that would be better?
I'm just saying I've heard criticism of Bush and Reagan (and Reagan was notoriously callous) about the AIDS crisis, but if they acted just like every other world leader at the time, it seems like a lot less of a character flaw especially at a funeral.

Have you ever complained about Brian Mulroney's response? If not, why?

Also, I think criticism is way more warranted here in a n R&P forum than in general discourse.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by YellowKing »

This doesn't strictly apply to George Bush but whenever the debate comes up over whether to speak ill of the dead it reminds me of Natalie Merchant's lyrics from "River":

Why don’t you let him be?
He’s gone, we know,
give his mother and his father peace.
Your vulture’s candor,
your casual slander
will murder his memory.
He’s gone, we know,
and it’s nothing but a tragedy.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by GreenGoo »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:02 pm I'm just saying I've heard criticism of Bush and Reagan (and Reagan was notoriously callous) about the AIDS crisis, but if they acted just like every other world leader at the time, it seems like a lot less of a character flaw especially at a funeral.

Have you ever complained about Brian Mulroney's response? If not, why?

Also, I think criticism is way more warranted here in a n R&P forum than in general discourse.
This is the R&P forum thread. I think you're just agreeing with my earlier statement. Sometimes there is confusion, so I'm just stating it.

I really have no horse in this race, but I think the criticism is valid. More valid for Reagan than Bush perhaps, but still valid.

AIDS in North America was first identified in the US. Ditto it's rapid development there. Africa was and is still the focal point of of AIDS world-wide, but I live in North America.

My whole life I've been fed a steady stream of American exceptionalism. I must admit I'm not used to the US being defended by "we were just as terrible as everyone else" but ok.

Has America ever ignored other pandemics to the extent that it ignored AIDS? Was there something special about this one? What was it?

The CDC is a thing. One of it's missions is the control and prevention of disease world-wide. It's basically the center of disease study of the world. America is one of the leading countries in the study, research and practical development of health care. It's also one of the richest countries in the world. Your wealth is orders of magnitude larger than ours. We're approximately Texas. We actually have a slightly higher percentage of our population living with HIV than the US at this point.

The reason I haven't complained about Mulroney's response is many-fold. Canadian media is a small percentage compared to the firehose of US media that floods our markets. Our children often know more about the superficial aspects of your history than they do of ours, because TV is a thing. It starts with Sesame Street and Captain Kangaroo and ends with 4 or 5 channels during the six o'clock news that are American based, and 1 that is Canadian. Or did, for most of my life. We are flooded with American news, culture, entertainment, etc from an early age that continues into adulthood. The reason this matters is that because of this I am far more aware of America's response to the AIDS pandemic than I am to my own country's. Not because I love to criticize America, but because America told me all about it. It may be a shameful history, but it's a shameful history that America shared with us. I don't give Mulroney a pass either, but whatever his response was, he didn't have ~$5e11+ in tax revenue to draw from at the time.

Who am I going to complain to? You? No one on OO wants to hear about Canadian politics, news or health issues outside of the rare item of particular note that gets glossed over, or as it relates to the US. I don't blame OO for their lack of interest. It's 99% Americans. This is where I decided to hang my hat on the internet. I'm fine with that. Perhaps you spend some of your day discussing politics and health concerns in excruciating detail with the people in your life, but I do not. I have here. And here is American.

This is getting drawn out, but the answer to your question is manifold and complex. I'll take a step back.

The short version is because HIV/AIDS became known in NA as it spread through the American (and presumably Canadian) gay communities. It was identified as a health risk in your country and under ordinary circumstances would have been treated as significant, except it only affected an already marginalized demographic, so the problem will work itself out if a blind eye is turned. Luckily(?) it started hitting wives, at which point bam, suddenly everyone is very concerned about this whole HIV thing.

Perhaps we did it too. Probably, in fact. Mulroney sucks too, and I'll have no issues discussing it when he dies as well. It might legitimize the criticism a bit more if the CDC was based in Canada, but it is not.

To reiterate, I do not have a horse in this race. I am attempting to support those that offer what I consider valid criticism when they experience push back here, rather than offering the criticism myself. Because whether this particular criticism is warranted or not, I support the idea that the time to take stock of a man's life is when he dies, and that's particularly true for men of note. The fact that most here are so far removed from GWHB that they have never even met him, let alone had a personal relationship with him, should make this forum particularly safe for all forms of comments. Even less than positive ones.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by GreenGoo »

YellowKing wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:05 pm This doesn't strictly apply to George Bush but whenever the debate comes up over whether to speak ill of the dead it reminds me of Natalie Merchant's lyrics from "River":

Why don’t you let him be?
He’s gone, we know,
give his mother and his father peace.
Your vulture’s candor,
your casual slander
will murder his memory.
He’s gone, we know,
and it’s nothing but a tragedy.
We don't let historical figures be. That's the very nature of history. Recent history is still history.

I agree to leave his mother and father out of it to give them peace (except they're dead) or anyone close to Bush really. Voting for him doesn't count.
Honest discussion of a historically noteworthy person's life is worth more than polite decorum, especially when all involved are strangers. I'm 100% behind Holman on this. That he has students means I'm extra supportive.

While I can often put my criticisms in the harshest possible terms to emphasize the significance of them, I mostly agree with El Guapo's assessment that respectful discussion of the realities of his public life are worthwhile. It's not like we're discussing how he brought up his kids, or how he treated his wife, or whether he was a bully in grade school. This is a public figure (of a magnitude that few other public figures reach) and that makes him a topic worth discussing honestly.
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Re: RIP, George H. W. Bush

Post by Kraken »

Holman wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:51 pm Are we--not the Bushes, not major public figures, but normal Americans and our families--actually engaged in mourning? Or are we watching a kind of spectacle being played mostly for TV ratings and political points?
Day of mourning, day of remembrance...whatever. I am going to take at least a few moments to mourn the demise of the GOP. That makes me genuinely sad. Even though I was never a Republican and rarely had kind words for them, I wish it had died with dignity instead of becoming this horrible undead thing.

Did Bush 1 play a role in that, other than trying to be Reagan Lite? Did he fail to win reelection because of it? I'll mourn by thinking about questions like that.
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