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The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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Victoria Raverna
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Victoria Raverna » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:10 am

Maybe US is not ready for a female President?

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kraken » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:21 am

Hillary won the last election by 3 million votes despite being deeply unpopular. Maybe certain states aren't ready for a female president, but I think their problem was more with her than with her gender.

The Democrats will nominate whoever they believe has the best chance of defeating Trump...which could blow up in their faces if he isn't the Republican nominee. It will be a laff riot if the R's nominate a woman to run against, say, Joe Biden. Ivanka, anyone? :wink:

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Zarathud » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:13 am

There is no high ground against Trump. At least with Warren, you know where he is going. Reminding his racist supporters that Warren is white doesn't seem to have as much traction as Trump had with "Little Marco" or "Lying Ted."

Like TV and soundbites, Twitter and snark have reshaped how politicians need to react. I had hoped that Warren would be able to hold up better against Trump's jabs, as she had been landing some blows. The Democrats need to keep up on social media, as that's become Trump's biggest asset besides deplorables and Russian help.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by LordMortis » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:08 am

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:10 am
Maybe US is not ready for a female President?
I wouldn't say not ready, but I would say that a woman running has a strike against her because of the sex between her legs and that's so wrong in the 21st century. :cry:

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:30 am

Kraken wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:21 am
Hillary won the last election by 3 million votes despite being deeply unpopular. Maybe certain states aren't ready for a female president, but I think their problem was more with her than with her gender.
Agreed. The Clintons themselves are a deeply divisive family. I voted for her, but only because the alternative was far, far worse.

I'm beginning to like Beto more and more, to be honest. He's had relatively few moments of petty, immature reactions on the political stage; and he just comes across as sincere. I really hope he runs in 2020 if Biden doesn't.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Jaymann » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:57 am

If it's Trump vs. Biden John Scalzi can write the book.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by El Guapo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:04 am

Partly what I've been annoyed with about the whole Warren business is exactly that it reminds me of the Clinton debacle. Clinton, while she certainly had her flaws, was a smart, capable detail-oriented politician who made sure to put out detailed policy papers on a variety of issues and did her homework. And we collectively trashed all of that and obsessively focused on her e-mail security which, while it wasn't a total non-issue, mattered very little in comparison to the likely policy outcomes of her presidency vs. Trump's.

And this feels very similar. Warren has a strong track record, including being more than anyone else responsible for the creation of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. She has some interesting and compelling policy proposals, including corporate co-determination and the wealth tax. But again we're collectively letting her get derailed by (heavily racially-coded) attacks on an issue that really doesn't matter all that much.

And if we don't figure out some way to better handle stuff like this, we're going to let Trump and trumpists effectively eliminate promising prospective candidates by starting early on drowning them in bullshit.

The thing being that I basically agree that it's not worth taking the risk on Warren vs. other top-line candidates (Biden, Booker, Gillibrand, Harris, etc.) given the mess that Warren is in. It's just super frustrating.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:13 am

El Guapo wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:04 am
And we collectively trashed all of that and obsessively focused on her e-mail security which, while it wasn't a total non-issue, mattered very little
I thought the email security and Benghazi were both blown WAY out of proportion. Which lead to them being weaponized by Trump, his GOP sycophants and Fox News. She wasn't my first choice for president for other reasons that are well documented. However, she was still a much better choice than a reality TV show host.
El Guapo wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:04 am
And if we don't figure out some way to better handle stuff like this,
Warren is the one that handled it badly.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by El Guapo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:29 am

hepcat wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:13 am
El Guapo wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:04 am
And we collectively trashed all of that and obsessively focused on her e-mail security which, while it wasn't a total non-issue, mattered very little
I thought the email security and Benghazi were both blown WAY out of proportion. Which lead to them being weaponized by Trump, his GOP sycophants and Fox News. She wasn't my first choice for president for other reasons that are well documented. However, she was still a much better choice than a reality TV show host.
El Guapo wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:04 am
And if we don't figure out some way to better handle stuff like this,
Warren is the one that handled it badly.
The DNA test obviously was a bad idea, with some benefit from hindsight. But I'm not sure that there was a great way for Warren to win the game here. Trump has a large platform to play his Pocahontas nonsense. If she doesn't engage with it at all, she has to endure a drip-drip cycle of Trump pushing it, followed by media stories of the story (driven in part by Trump keeping it in the news), along with questions of "why won't she just address this issue and put it to rest?" But if she does address it, then that puts it back in the news, without her having a way to really get rid of the story (because Trump can still push it on Twitter and elsewhere).

Obama tried various different strategies on birthirism (between ignoring it and addressing it), but he was never really able to put that story away, and that was even more obviously bullshit.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Smoove_B » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:33 am

If only Elizabeth Warren just refused to release her tax returns. Instead she had to address her DNA.

Our country is doomed.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:34 am

El Guapo wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:29 am

The DNA test obviously was a bad idea, with some benefit from hindsight. But I'm not sure that there was a great way for Warren to win the game here. Trump has a large platform to play his Pocahontas nonsense. If she doesn't engage with it at all, she has to endure a drip-drip cycle of Trump pushing it
Not playing Trump's game would have most likely resulted in people like me still backing her. Playing his game and then having that ridiculous DNA test that backfired on her, and the recent revelation of her listing Native American on her bar resignation, only served to diminish her in the eyes of many that actually liked her prior to all this.

Sometimes not playing a rigged game is the best way to win. I had hoped she was smart/mature enough to understand that. I was wrong.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Jaymann » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:42 am

hepcat wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:34 am
El Guapo wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:29 am

The DNA test obviously was a bad idea, with some benefit from hindsight. But I'm not sure that there was a great way for Warren to win the game here. Trump has a large platform to play his Pocahontas nonsense. If she doesn't engage with it at all, she has to endure a drip-drip cycle of Trump pushing it
Not playing Trump's game would have most likely resulted in people like me still backing her. Playing his game and then having that ridiculous DNA test that backfired on her, and the recent revelation of her listing Native American on her bar resignation,
She should have gone with the pirate resignation letter.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:45 am

Oh great. Then she'd have taken another DNA test and THAT would've most likely shown .0003 percent Pirate blood in her family tree. THEN where would she be?
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by El Guapo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:56 am

hepcat wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:34 am
El Guapo wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:29 am

The DNA test obviously was a bad idea, with some benefit from hindsight. But I'm not sure that there was a great way for Warren to win the game here. Trump has a large platform to play his Pocahontas nonsense. If she doesn't engage with it at all, she has to endure a drip-drip cycle of Trump pushing it
Not playing Trump's game would have most likely resulted in people like me still backing her. Playing his game and then having that ridiculous DNA test that backfired on her, and the recent revelation of her listing Native American on her bar resignation, only served to diminish her in the eyes of many that actually liked her prior to all this.

Sometimes not playing a rigged game is the best way to win. I had hoped she was smart/mature enough to understand that. I was wrong.
So accepting that she can't go back and re-write her previous identifications as Native American, and accepting that the DNA test was a bad idea - what specifically should she have done instead? Not said anything about it?

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:08 pm

That's exactly what I'm saying. She blew it up even further by choosing to play Trump's game using Trump's rules. Before she did that, they were snide comments on twitter by an orange douche. SHE gave them more weight than they had at that point by acknowledging them. If she'd just ignored them, they would've faded into the background of the 97 other insults he issues on a daily basis towards people he doesn't like. SHE let herself get baited by a 9 year old.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kraken » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:59 pm

It's still nearly two years until the election and at least a year until average voters start paying attention. She has at least that long to make this go away once and for all.

Remember when Mondale was making an issue of Reagan's age? People were (rightly) concerned that he wasn't up to the job and might not make it through a second term. When confronted in a debate, he quipped that he would not hold his opponent's youth and inexperience against him. And that was basically the end of that.

I don't think Warren has the quick sense of humor and charisma to wave it away like that, but her issue isn't as substantive as Reagan's was, either. She needs to say something cleverly dismissive and close the subject. Every time she dignifies it with a serious response, she keeps it alive.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:11 pm

Kraken wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:59 pm
Remember when Mondale was making an issue of Reagan's age? People were (rightly) concerned that he wasn't up to the job and might not make it through a second term. When confronted in a debate, he quipped that he would not hold his opponent's youth and inexperience against him. And that was basically the end of that.
But that was when certain media elements were actually concerned about facts influencing their political views, rather than their political views influencing the facts. Nothing will make this go away if Fox decides it shouldn't go away, particularly if the GOP cooperate, and evidence is that they are terrified of Fox. Benghazi should have stopped "being a thing" within a year or so. It never did. If drumpf hadn't latched onto other issues, like an insecure email server (which is freakin' hilarious since neither he nor his base have any clue about any of it. Rip should have known better. Actually, he did, he just refused to admit it). Benghazi was 10x the "scandal" her email server was, and it wasn't much of a scandal at all. Yet that email server cost Clinton the presidency.

So I don't have a lot of faith in the idea of making this go away. I do however believe she can move past it and focus on more meaningful topics. It'll work with her base, and might even win over some undecideds as well, particularly if drumpf continues to shutdown governments and insist on boondoggles.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by El Guapo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:14 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:08 pm
That's exactly what I'm saying. She blew it up even further by choosing to play Trump's game using Trump's rules. Before she did that, they were snide comments on twitter by an orange douche. SHE gave them more weight than they had at that point by acknowledging them. If she'd just ignored them, they would've faded into the background of the 97 other insults he issues on a daily basis towards people he doesn't like. SHE let herself get baited by a 9 year old.
I don't disagree that that approach would probably have been better. I just have a strong suspicion that this story would doom her no matter what she did - that drip drip stories on this, boosted by Trump, would've dragged her down anyway.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Freyland » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:36 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:08 pm
That's exactly what I'm saying. She blew it up even further by choosing to play Trump's game using Trump's rules. Before she did that, they were snide comments on twitter by an orange douche. SHE gave them more weight than they had at that point by acknowledging them. If she'd just ignored them, they would've faded into the background of the 97 other insults he issues on a daily basis towards people he doesn't like. SHE let herself get baited by a 9 year old.
+1

Except "9 year old" is too generous.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Holman » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:01 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:30 am
I'm beginning to like Beto more and more, to be honest. He's had relatively few moments of petty, immature reactions on the political stage; and he just comes across as sincere. I really hope he runs in 2020 if Biden doesn't.
I know I brought this up a couple of weeks ago, but has anyone else heard Biden lately?

I caught a recent speech of his on the radio, and he sounded very tired. He seems to have aged significantly since the last time we heard him (HRC's Summer 2016 convention). I'm really afraid that he can't go the distance of a two-year campaign--and that's before he even gets to the Presidency.

It's said that in 2018 he recorded some endorsement ads for various local Dems, but none were used because he didn't have the old Biden energy.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:29 pm

I sincerely doubt he's in worse physical shape than the orange doofus, who's only 4 years younger than Biden. So if he sounds tired, my first guess would be that he's mentally tired of it all. Which I hope isn't the case as he really is my first choice to run against Trump.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kraken » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:41 pm

There are two competing narratives in the D Party: The conciliators, as embodied in Booker (and BIden if he runs), and the warriors, as embodied in Warren (and Sanders if he runs). The other candidates will fall to one side or the other of that spectrum, but sorting that out will be the main function of the primaries. I sense that most in this forum are conciliators. I do not believe the time is right for reconciliation. First we have to win the war. I like Joe and will support him if he prevails, but his time will be 2028, after the war is won. :lol:

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:47 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:29 pm
I sincerely doubt he's in worse physical shape than the orange doofus, who's only 4 years younger than Biden. So if he sounds tired, my first guess would be that he's mentally tired of it all. Which I hope isn't the case as he really is my first choice to run against Trump.
In 2020, he'll be 8 years older than Trump was when he was given a job. Plus Biden actually knows what the job entails. Or should entail. I'm guessing he's thinking, "fuck it."

Unless 50% "executive time" is the new standard. If that's the case then not even Jimmy Carter is off the table.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Zarathud » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:36 pm

Biden has family drama. I don't think he runs.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Alefroth » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:48 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:29 pm
I sincerely doubt he's in worse physical shape than the orange doofus, who's only 4 years younger than Biden. So if he sounds tired, my first guess would be that he's mentally tired of it all. Which I hope isn't the case as he really is my first choice to run against Trump.
There is absolutely no chance Biden wouldn't engage with Trump if he ran.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Unagi » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:42 pm

That's almost the main reason I'd like to see him run.
In fact, I wish he would just come and debate the crap out of Trump for entertainment value.
He's a huge hit in our home.... Biden could have spared us this entire mess, and yet I'm thinking the time has passed.


If Beto O'Rourke could start up a strong game - I'd be most excited... He's not yet announced, and I wonder if that's a good or bad sign (truly, could be both).

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:52 pm

Alefroth wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:48 pm
hepcat wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:29 pm
I sincerely doubt he's in worse physical shape than the orange doofus, who's only 4 years younger than Biden. So if he sounds tired, my first guess would be that he's mentally tired of it all. Which I hope isn't the case as he really is my first choice to run against Trump.
There is absolutely no chance Biden wouldn't engage with Trump if he ran.
But I doubt he’d engage him on his level. Biden doesn’t strike me as a man easily baited by children.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Unagi » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:53 pm

and back on topic for EW, had she figure out a way (in the vein that Hepcat's been saying, and myself earlier) to not engage in her claims of heritage, and actually put them to rest instead of basically Doubling-Down with Trump, I'd be all over her politics (for the most part).

I see the Trump vs Warren match-up like a game where certain game-pieces have special powers.... The "Trump Character" has the special ability to tag an opponent with 'Unwinnable', and if he's ever in a 1-on-1 election with them, he will win it... He's played his power on Warren, and we need to recognize that and move on. I'm not clear on what her special powers would be, but it's irrelevant if Trump has removed her from the game.

Also, I think the misogyny engine that put the snuff on Clinton is obviouslty locked and loaded on EW, and that's enough for me to call it.

(And that SUCKS, btw)

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Unagi » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:54 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:52 pm
Alefroth wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:48 pm
hepcat wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:29 pm
I sincerely doubt he's in worse physical shape than the orange doofus, who's only 4 years younger than Biden. So if he sounds tired, my first guess would be that he's mentally tired of it all. Which I hope isn't the case as he really is my first choice to run against Trump.
There is absolutely no chance Biden wouldn't engage with Trump if he ran.
But I doubt he’d engage him on his level. Biden doesn’t strike me as a man easily baited by children.
It would be fun to watch (without anything on the hook) how the two of them would engage one another. Seriously would LOVE to see this unfold. He would NOT take the bait. He would play it well (in my imagination at least).

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Alefroth » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:24 pm

Unagi wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:54 pm
hepcat wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:52 pm
Alefroth wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:48 pm
hepcat wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:29 pm
I sincerely doubt he's in worse physical shape than the orange doofus, who's only 4 years younger than Biden. So if he sounds tired, my first guess would be that he's mentally tired of it all. Which I hope isn't the case as he really is my first choice to run against Trump.
There is absolutely no chance Biden wouldn't engage with Trump if he ran.
But I doubt he’d engage him on his level. Biden doesn’t strike me as a man easily baited by children.
It would be fun to watch (without anything on the hook) how the two of them would engage one another. Seriously would LOVE to see this unfold. He would NOT take the bait. He would play it well (in my imagination at least).
He'd definitely take the bait. He has a history of putting his foot in his mouth.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:47 pm

I very highly doubt he’d let Trump bait him into anything. He has a history of gaffes, but show me a president without that problem. Biden may make the occasional threat of taking a person like Trump behind the gym for an ass whipping, but he wouldn’t let Trump control his actions like Warren has.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Grifman » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:16 am

hepcat wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:29 pm
I sincerely doubt he's in worse physical shape than the orange doofus, who's only 4 years younger than Biden. So if he sounds tired, my first guess would be that he's mentally tired of it all. Which I hope isn't the case as he really is my first choice to run against Trump.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Holman » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:26 am

After Trump, we need a president not only willing but also 100% able to put in the hours.

I love my Uncle Joe, but old is old.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:57 am

Holman wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:26 am
After Trump, we need a president not only willing but also 100% able to put in the hours.

I love my Uncle Joe, but old is old.
Do we? Or is 50% the new standard?
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by El Guapo » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:59 am

I do love Biden as well, but in addition to his age, I also worry about his ability to be seen as an agent of change in an antiestablishment age. And since Biden has a reputation for being a little handsy, I worry about whether anything could come out that would be problematic in the Me Too age.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:02 pm

On the one hand you have the "me too" thing but on the other you have...Trump still in office.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:48 pm

Help us Beto Wan. You're our only hope.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by El Guapo » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:49 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:02 pm
On the one hand you have the "me too" thing but on the other you have...Trump still in office.
I know, but that wouldn't stop any revelations from being hugely damaging for Biden.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by El Guapo » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:50 pm

As a side note, I think Warren's troubles virtually guarantee that Sanders will make another run.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:56 pm

Interestingly enough, the current clime may make Sanders seem less of an extremist.
I beat a camel to death with a monkey. Can I do that?
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You have to whack a few rabbits before you are ready to punch a camel.
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