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The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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El Guapo
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by El Guapo » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:14 pm

hepcat wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:56 pm
Interestingly enough, the current clime may make Sanders seem less of an extremist.
Maybe, but at the same time he won't have the benefit of being "not Hillary Clinton" in this race. Some significant portion of his support was from people who couldn't stand Clinton, and those people are likely to be dispersed among various candidates.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:17 pm

I'd vote for Bernie if he chose Barry as his running mate. Sanders/Sanders is a ticket I'd even volunteer for.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:59 pm

Wouldn't Bernie/Sarah achieve the same end goal? :twisted:
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by The Meal » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:05 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:17 pm
I'd vote for Bernie if he chose Barry as his running mate. Sanders/Sanders is a ticket I'd even volunteer for.
I see what you did there.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Unagi » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:50 pm

Alefroth wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:24 pm
He'd definitely take the bait. He has a history of putting his foot in his mouth.
I think we may be defining 'take the bait' differently. I just feel he could play Trump perhaps at his own game. And I admit I'm kinda lionizing him too much, I'd likely cringe in reality and just wish he didn't engage Trump at all.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by El Guapo » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:25 pm

Also I'm pretty sure that the media would cover Biden's counter-remarks way differently than they would Warren's. Biden would be "feisty" and "beating the President at his own game", whereas Warren would be seen more as lowering herself to Trump's level.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:34 pm

Up until the DNA test, Warren was the darling of the media. They portrayed her in exactly the same manner you're saying they would Biden.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by El Guapo » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:56 pm

hepcat wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:34 pm
Up until the DNA test, Warren was the darling of the media. They portrayed her in exactly the same manner you're saying they would Biden.
Hard disagree on that.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:02 pm

Granted, I may have been a bit off. Looks like the "darling of the Democrats" fall from grace actually occurred a bit before the DNA test. However, a simple google search for Warren shows that she was most definitely much loved by the media...well, other than Fox News, Breitbarts and Drudge.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Unagi » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:54 am

I think that a while back, she was the only light in the darkness. But when others lit and her light was exposed to the wind - the media dropped their 'support' and instead consumed her as a massive 'see we are not biased' points grab.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kraken » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:02 am

Trump still throws more shade at Warren than at any other Dem candidate, reflecting her perceived threat level. For her part, Warren avoids speaking his name. That must bug the shit out of him.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Unagi » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:09 am

It would be super cool and sophisticated if the dems were using Warren as a heatsink for Trump's energy... allowing him to put everything he has into her, and then just dumping her with the main engine still intact.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kurth » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:36 am

El Guapo wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:25 pm
Also I'm pretty sure that the media would cover Biden's counter-remarks way differently than they would Warren's. Biden would be "feisty" and "beating the President at his own game", whereas Warren would be seen more as lowering herself to Trump's level.
What’s interesting about Biden is that his main previously known vulnerabilities (i.e., all the crazy “Uncle Joe” stuff and the plagiarism allegation) so pales in comparison to the norm-busting stuff done by Trump everyday. I think Biden is one Dem Trump really doesn’t want to face.

Not that I’m all in on Biden, by any means. The Dems need to run someone fresh. Our government so badly needs some new blood. No more retreads!
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Remus West » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:07 am

Kurth wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:36 am
El Guapo wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:25 pm
Also I'm pretty sure that the media would cover Biden's counter-remarks way differently than they would Warren's. Biden would be "feisty" and "beating the President at his own game", whereas Warren would be seen more as lowering herself to Trump's level.
What’s interesting about Biden is that his main previously known vulnerabilities (i.e., all the crazy “Uncle Joe” stuff and the plagiarism allegation) so pales in comparison to the norm-busting stuff done by Trump everyday. I think Biden is one Dem Trump really doesn’t want to face.

Not that I’m all in on Biden, by any means. The Dems need to run someone fresh. Our government so badly needs some new blood. No more retreads!
Trump wasn't a retread.

More seriously, our government needs someone educated and intelligent who actually cares about Americans making less than 8 figures a year. And it had better be someone amazingly good because with the damage Trump is doing to everything whomever is next will have a true shit pile to dig through. The Simpsons couldn't have gotten it more true. Help us Lisa.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by pr0ner » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:59 am

Elizabeth Warren wants to break up "Big Tech" (aka Facebook, Google, and Amazon).
Today’s big tech companies have too much power — too much power over our economy, our society, and our democracy. They’ve bulldozed competition, used our private information for profit, and tilted the playing field against everyone else. And in the process, they have hurt small businesses and stifled innovation.

I want a government that makes sure everybody — even the biggest and most powerful companies in America — plays by the rules. And I want to make sure that the next generation of great American tech companies can flourish. To do that, we need to stop this generation of big tech companies from throwing around their political power to shape the rules in their favor and throwing around their economic power to snuff out or buy up every potential competitor.

That’s why my Administration will make big, structural changes to the tech sector to promote more competition — including breaking up Amazon, Facebook, and Google.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:18 am

I’d rather start with Comcast, Disney, AT&T, and Charter.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by El Guapo » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:18 am

I mean, as a former antitrust prosecutor, I'm inclined to favor more aggressive antitrust enforcement, but this is a weird list of mergers to identify as The Problem:
Amazon: Whole Foods; Zappos
•Facebook: WhatsApp; Instagram
•Google: Waze; Nest; DoubleClick
I mean, if you want to argue that Amazon and Google are borderline monopolists in some sectors, sure, you can make some kind of case (though it's less clear cut than many think). But has Amazon's acquisition of Zappos, or Google's acquisition of Nest, made that issue materially worse? Hard for me to see how.

Also seems like naming a list of specific mergers to retrospectively challenge would make things more difficult on President Warren-era DoJ attorneys to bring challenges against them. The judges will (not unreasonably) assume that this is being driven by politics rather than by the merits.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by LordMortis » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:34 pm

Normally I'm a fan of Warren's ability to recall and present details. I may have to go back and re-evaluate my fandom and learn to question her reality as well
Aren’t we all glad that now we have the option of using Google instead of being stuck with Bing?
Bing has been around for less than a decade (Google twice that long) and the antitrust was more about being glad we have the option to use Netscape instead of IE. And if I recall correctly it was more about whether MS was gimping universal features from non MS applications. She's playing fast and loose with merging hypotheticals with historical record and relying on your confusion to make a point.

I like it much better when she stands against this exact kind behavior, not when she takes part in it.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Defiant » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:21 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:34 pm

Bing has been around for less than a decade (Google twice that long) and the antitrust was more about being glad we have the option to use Netscape instead of IE. And if I recall correctly it was more about whether MS was gimping universal features from non MS applications.
From what I remember it was about two things, 1) that IE came bundled with windows and 2) because Microsoft had made Windows, when they developed IE they were able to use protocols that hadn't been publicized, which gave it an unfair advantage over competitors.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Montag » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:45 pm

This is BS. You are not required to use Google for anything. Yes it is dominant and Google has become the verb for searching like Kleen-Ex is the tissue. Google has done a lot for consumers in bringing goods, services, and transformative technology. Do not destroy it.

Amazon has brought a lot of convenience and cost advantage to consumers, but has been very disruptive to the marketplace. The market needs to adapt. This is like manufacturing becoming heavily automated and the workplace has changed.

The government needs to tread very carefully here or the US will lose areas we have competitive advantage. I greatly fear the political pendulum will swing too far left and will do far more damage than Trump's narcissism and incompetence.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Moliere » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:43 am

Image

How do we let this come to pass? Someone needs to breakup Krogers. The country was better off when there were no supermarkets and instead we had corner grocery stores offering 1/10th the inventory.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:50 am

It should be easy to break off Hilander from the group as there can be only one.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:06 pm

Facetious comments aside, monolithic corporations with no competition, or worse, the appearance of competition but is actually the corporation competing with itself are a real problem that laissez-faire capitalism has no solution to and in fact is the logical conclusion of an unregulated competitive market.

I don't really care that someone misspoke or has an incomplete understanding. At least they are aware the problem exists and needs to be addressed.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kurth » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:15 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:06 pm
Facetious comments aside, monolithic corporations with no competition, or worse, the appearance of competition but is actually the corporation competing with itself are a real problem that laissez-faire capitalism has no solution to and in fact is the logical conclusion of an unregulated competitive market.

I don't really care that someone misspoke or has an incomplete understanding. At least they are aware the problem exists and needs to be addressed.
Ok. To a point. But let’s not forget that sometimes doing the wrong thing to combat a real problem is worse than doing nothing at all.

My impression is that the accomplishments of our tech sector stand out as an example of what can be accomplished by the private sector when the government takes a more or less hands off approach. They obviously have issues, but these companies Warren is villifying seem to me to some of our greatest assets. While we may have reached the point where some regulation is needed (especially around privacy and IP issues), I am really wary of someone like Warren being in the driver’s seat in terms of dictating the substance and extent of that regulation.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:41 pm

It was the divergence into mockingly suggesting Kroger's was equally a problem, with the message that criticism of big corps in general was mockworthy that I was addressing.

I haven't paid enough attention to Warren's stance here or what she feels the problems are with Google or Amazon specifically, or what she proposes to do about them.

Using Microsoft as an example of a historically problematic corporation is correct even if she's mistaken about the details while delivering a speech and/or comments to the press.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Moliere » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:55 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:06 pm
Facetious comments aside, monolithic corporations with no competition, or worse, the appearance of competition but is actually the corporation competing with itself are a real problem that laissez-faire capitalism has no solution to and in fact is the logical conclusion of an unregulated competitive market.
Google is free. FB is free. Amazon offers endless goods and services at reduced prices and usually free shipping. Goddamn capitalists sticking it to the consumer.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Jaymann » Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:23 pm

Unfortunately the more I hear from Warren, the less impressed I am. Perhaps she is more effective in the Senate.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:28 pm

Moliere wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:55 pm
Google is free. FB is free. Amazon offers endless goods and services at reduced prices and usually free shipping. Goddamn capitalists sticking it to the consumer.
Yeah, I'm sure that's her problem. Thanks for the heads up.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Combustible Lemur » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:44 pm


Moliere wrote:
Google is free. FB is free. Amazon offers endless goods and services at reduced prices and usually free shipping. Goddamn capitalists sticking it to the consumer.
Google and Facebook are not even remotely free. They offer services for your time and personal data, And they do it in a way that is more clandestine than it should be, more aggressive than it should be. And more reckless than it should be.

Amazon discount prices hide the dark side of their profits. Last time I heard Prime isn't even directly profitable. It is designed to maximize data collection and improve their AI research.

Capitalist is right. By definition these companies are transactional, not egalitarian. Despite their best PR efforts.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Defiant » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:45 pm

Moliere wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:55 pm

Google is free. FB is free.
Only if you consider the personal data you give away to be worthless.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kraken » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:34 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:44 pm

Amazon discount prices hide the dark side of their profits. Last time I heard Prime isn't even directly profitable. It is designed to maximize data collection and improve their AI research.
Don't get me started on the shakedown that is the Amazon Marketplace. Have you noticed how few independent, mom-and-pop shops still exist? Yeah, that's why.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by em2nought » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:12 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:18 am
I mean, as a former antitrust prosecutor, I'm inclined to favor more aggressive antitrust enforcement, but this is a weird list of mergers to identify as The Problem:
Amazon: Whole Foods; Zappos
•Facebook: WhatsApp; Instagram
•Google: Waze; Nest; DoubleClick
It's like someone who has a beef against Bezos, and also dislikes tech elite liberal bias hacked Pocahontas. :wink:
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by hepcat » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:24 pm

Well, that last part absolves Trump. Come to think of it, it pretty much absolves any Trumper as they’re not all that inte....well, you get my drift.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Victoria Raverna » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:50 am

Kraken wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:34 pm
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:44 pm

Amazon discount prices hide the dark side of their profits. Last time I heard Prime isn't even directly profitable. It is designed to maximize data collection and improve their AI research.
Don't get me started on the shakedown that is the Amazon Marketplace. Have you noticed how few independent, mom-and-pop shops still exist? Yeah, that's why.
Not because of Walmart?

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by em2nought » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:54 am

hepcat wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:24 pm
Well, that last part absolves Trump. Come to think of it, it pretty much absolves any Trumper as they’re not all that inte....well, you get my drift.
Thanks for limiting the syllables for me. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kraken » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:01 am

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:50 am
Kraken wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:34 pm
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:44 pm

Amazon discount prices hide the dark side of their profits. Last time I heard Prime isn't even directly profitable. It is designed to maximize data collection and improve their AI research.
Don't get me started on the shakedown that is the Amazon Marketplace. Have you noticed how few independent, mom-and-pop shops still exist? Yeah, that's why.
Not because of Walmart?
I meant online shops. Sorry, I should have said.

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Holman » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:17 am

It could be said that Amazon killed bookstores, but it's really only true that it killed Borders and gravely wounded Barnes & Noble, who had already killed bookstores.

Counterpoint, though: independent bookstores with niche identity (particularly in college towns and artsy neighborhoods) *have* managed to survive.

Counter-counterpoint: Amazon is so clearly the chief marketer of books that publishers have been known to consult with them about setting their catalogs. That's kind of bad, and not just because it's new.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by $iljanus » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:34 am

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Moliere wrote:
Google is free. FB is free. Amazon offers endless goods and services at reduced prices and usually free shipping. Goddamn capitalists sticking it to the consumer.
Google and Facebook are not even remotely free. They offer services for your time and personal data, And they do it in a way that is more clandestine than it should be, more aggressive than it should be. And more reckless than it should be.

Amazon discount prices hide the dark side of their profits. Last time I heard Prime isn't even directly profitable. It is designed to maximize data collection and improve their AI research.

Capitalist is right. By definition these companies are transactional, not egalitarian. Despite their best PR efforts.

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I think Warren would have stood a better chance pitching greater protection and consumer control of our personal data which has gotten more attention lately rather than "trust busting" Google and Amazon which has left folks scratching their heads.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Victoria Raverna » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:55 am

Kraken wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:01 am
Victoria Raverna wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:50 am
Kraken wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:34 pm
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:44 pm

Amazon discount prices hide the dark side of their profits. Last time I heard Prime isn't even directly profitable. It is designed to maximize data collection and improve their AI research.
Don't get me started on the shakedown that is the Amazon Marketplace. Have you noticed how few independent, mom-and-pop shops still exist? Yeah, that's why.
Not because of Walmart?
I meant online shops. Sorry, I should have said.
I don't think that is because of Amazon. I think the problem is marketing. You need a lot of advertising to have a successful online store. Online mom-and-pops shops just don't make sense.

What you need is an online shopping mall where mom and pop shops can open shop inside. Then you can pool your advertising fund.

I don't know about the situation in US, maybe Amazon killed all competitors. In Indonesia, we now have several competing online marketplaces that allow people to "open shop" and sell stuff through them. While there is still no successful mom and pop online shops, small business owners still can sell their product online.

I think those online marketplace are still burning money to compete but they attracted a lot of investors and two of local ones are now over US$ 1 billion in valuation.

Do you have something like them in US that can survive and compete with Amazon Marketplace?

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Combustible Lemur » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:10 pm


$iljanus wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Moliere wrote:
Google is free. FB is free. Amazon offers endless goods and services at reduced prices and usually free shipping. Goddamn capitalists sticking it to the consumer.
Google and Facebook are not even remotely free. They offer services for your time and personal data, And they do it in a way that is more clandestine than it should be, more aggressive than it should be. And more reckless than it should be.

Amazon discount prices hide the dark side of their profits. Last time I heard Prime isn't even directly profitable. It is designed to maximize data collection and improve their AI research.

Capitalist is right. By definition these companies are transactional, not egalitarian. Despite their best PR efforts.

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I think Warren would have stood a better chance pitching greater protection and consumer control of our personal data which has gotten more attention lately rather than "trust busting" Google and Amazon which has left folks scratching their heads.
Well, duh. Though trust busting is going to be an important part of that consumer protection. At least it was when we stumbled I out of the last gilded age.

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