Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:55 pm
by Isgrimnur
This I didn't know.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:40 pm
by Kurth
El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:38 am
Yeah, that was super disappointing and frustrating, especially since overall I like AOC quite a bit and think she's generally pretty sensible. But she's way off here. And this is something that (incrementally) hurts the prospects to peace, as one of the significant obstacles to any sort of Palestinian peace deal is the sense among mainstream Israelis that if they try to strike a deal that all they'll get is rockets from the West Bank and continued condemnation from the world. And this feeds into part of that - if the leader who was literally assassinated because he was trying to strike a peace deal isn't good enough for you, who will ever be good enough?
But, hey, how cool was it when she live-streamed her game of Among Us????
I have really mixed feelings about AOC. For every thing she seems to do right, it seems like she steps in it somewhere else. The Green New Deal captures it for me. Some good ideas. Some terrible ideas. No real ability to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:17 pm
by noxiousdog
She's a junior representative. What do you expect?
Even the most seasoned statesmen have a head scratcher once in a while.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:33 pm
by El Guapo
Overall I like her quite a bit - she's very smart and sensible and seems generally evidence-driven (within a progressive framework, of course). This wasn't great, but overall I still thing well of her.
It also seems apparent that her core interests and focus lie on domestic policy (particularly social safety net) and environmental policies. Given that she's progressive, I do expect that a lot of her foreign policy positions are going to be driven by standard positions in the progressive world. Those are as a general matter reflexively hostile to Israel, so in general I expect more of this going forward, but we'll see.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:12 am
by Defiant
Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) retweeted a post over the weekend that read “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” that was part of an “International Day of Solidarity” picture.
She later deleted the tweet.
“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” is a phrase that critics say calls for the elimination of the State of Israel.
A senior US administration official said Israel was behind the assassination of Iran's top nuclear scientist but declined to give details about whether the Trump administration knew about the attack before it was carried out or provided support.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:32 pm
by Defiant
Israel's government has collapsed, yet again.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:41 pm
by Defiant
The U.S. House of Representatives has just passed the Middle East Partnership for Peace Act, historic legislation delivering unprecedented funding for Israeli-Palestinian peacebuilding and Palestinian economic development. If successfully enacted, it would provide $250 million over five years in order to expand peace and reconciliation work in the region. This legislation is the result of over a decade of advocacy by the Alliance for Middle East Peace – ALLMEP.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:45 pm
by Defiant
Israel just had it's fourth election in two years and at this point, I'm just going to start recycling my previous posts:
Defiant wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:49 pm
It's still way up in the air as to who's going to win
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:25 pm
by malchior
Defiant wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:45 pm
Israel just had it's fourth election in two years and at this point, I'm just going to start recycling my previous posts:
Defiant wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:49 pm
It's still way up in the air as to who's going to win
Someone said it best on Twitter, I can't find it again, so I'll paraphrase. Either Netanyahu wins or the anti-Netanyahu right bloc, the anti-Netanyahu centrist bloc, or the anti-Netanyahu left-wing bloc doesn't win and Netanyahu wins. Their politics are looking pretty busted right now too.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Defiant wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:45 pm
Israel just had it's fourth election in two years and at this point, I'm just going to start recycling my previous posts:
Defiant wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:49 pm
It's still way up in the air as to who's going to win
Someone said it best on Twitter, I can't find it again, so I'll paraphrase. Either Netanyahu wins or the anti-Netanyahu right bloc, the anti-Netanyahu centrist bloc, or the anti-Netanyahu left-wing bloc doesn't win and Netanyahu wins. Their politics are looking pretty busted right now too.
Yup. I do try to bear in mind that there's no golden age or ideal country where the political system works smoothly and everyone behaves fairly and equitably.
The damn Senate, though....
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Defiant wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:45 pm
Israel just had it's fourth election in two years and at this point, I'm just going to start recycling my previous posts:
Defiant wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:49 pm
It's still way up in the air as to who's going to win
Someone said it best on Twitter, I can't find it again, so I'll paraphrase. Either Netanyahu wins or the anti-Netanyahu right bloc, the anti-Netanyahu centrist bloc, or the anti-Netanyahu left-wing bloc doesn't win and Netanyahu wins. Their politics are looking pretty busted right now too.
Yup. I do try to bear in mind that there's no golden age or ideal country where the political system works smoothly and everyone behaves fairly and equitably.
The damn Senate, though....
Agreed. It remains ironic that the (now) strongest federal Democracy in the world was largely designed by us. If we were to adopt that German model much of this instability would be greatly reduced. The issues we saw with Trump would have been greatly mitigated for example.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Defiant wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:45 pm
Israel just had it's fourth election in two years and at this point, I'm just going to start recycling my previous posts:
Defiant wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:49 pm
It's still way up in the air as to who's going to win
Someone said it best on Twitter, I can't find it again, so I'll paraphrase. Either Netanyahu wins or the anti-Netanyahu right bloc, the anti-Netanyahu centrist bloc, or the anti-Netanyahu left-wing bloc doesn't win and Netanyahu wins. Their politics are looking pretty busted right now too.
Yup. I do try to bear in mind that there's no golden age or ideal country where the political system works smoothly and everyone behaves fairly and equitably.
The damn Senate, though....
Agreed. It remains ironic that the (now) strongest federal Democracy in the world was largely designed by us. If we were to adopt that German model much of this instability would be greatly reduced. The issues we saw with Trump would have been greatly mitigated for example.
I mean, it makes sense. Our system was designed by reasonably smart people, but it was the first modern democratic system. We learned a lot about best democratic practices between 1787 and 1945. But we're stuck with making the best of a first draft democratic system, unfortunately.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:19 pm
by UsulofDoom
What should be done with Israel attacking Palestine? Everyone seems very quiet.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:25 pm
by Kraken
UsulofDoom wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:19 pm
What should be done with Israel attacking Palestine? Everyone seems very quiet.
Call Jared out of retirement?
Israel and Palestine have been going at it since long before I was born and they'll keep doing it long after I'm dead. IDK that the US can do anything about it beyond finger-wagging.
I often agree with Trevor Noah, so how about this.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:26 pm
by dbt1949
Why in the world was there an airstrike against Gaza? I knew the Palestinians were rioting in Jerusalem because the Israelis and taken their homes away and given them to hard core Jews. And I'm sure the other Palestinians in Gaza supported their brethren but how did that justify an air strike against civilians?
And we of course are going to say nothing.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:20 am
by El Guapo
dbt1949 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:26 pm
Why in the world was there an airstrike against Gaza? I knew the Palestinians were rioting in Jerusalem because the Israelis and taken their homes away and given them to hard core Jews. And I'm sure the other Palestinians in Gaza supported their brethren but how did that justify an air strike against civilians?
And we of course are going to say nothing.
Hamas started firing rockets from Gaza into Israel, prompted by the situation in Jerusalem. The air strikes were in reprisal for the rockets.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:27 am
by Isgrimnur
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Clashes erupt on Friday as Muslims pack the Al-Aqsa mosque compound — Islam’s third holiest site — to pray on the last Friday of the holy fasting month of Ramadan.
...
On Saturday prayers at the mosque compound are held peacefully but violence flares elsewhere in east Jerusalem.
...
Much of the recent unrest stems from the long-running legal effort by Jewish settler groups to evict several Palestinian families from their homes in the east Jerusalem neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah.
...
Scuffles between Palestinians and Israeli police in east Jerusalem continue overnight into Sunday.
...
In Monday morning clashes at the mosque compound the Palestinian Red Crescent says at least 395 Palestinians are wounded, with more than 200 hospitalised.
...
But then Hamas threatens escalation unless Israel pulls its security forces out of the compound, with more than 200 rockets reportedly fired by Palestinian militants towards the Jewish state.
Israel responds with 130 strikes by fighter jets and attack helicopters on “military targets” in the Hamas-run enclave.
...
Islamic Jihad said two of its commanders were among those killed.
...
In the evening, a 12-storey building in Gaza where several top Hamas commanders had offices is completely destroyed in an Israeli air strike.
In retaliation, Hamas says it has launched 130 rockets towards the Israeli city of Tel Aviv, where air raid sirens ring out.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 7:56 am
by Holman
There was a time when the US had enough global prestige to step in and broker a Middle-East cease-fire, but then we spent it all on Iraq and MAGA.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:16 am
by Defiant
Oh, fighting between Israel and the Palestinians? Must be repeats week. Or a year ending in a digit.
Maybe the new guy will give it a bigger and better effort than the last three guys, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:19 am
by Defiant
Holman wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:56 am
There was a time when the US had enough global prestige to step in and broker a Middle-East cease-fire, but then we spent it all on Iraq and MAGA.
Nonsense, we still have enough prestige to step in, broker a cease fire, put in a minimal effort to go through the motions of a middle east peace process and then do a poor job following through.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 10:36 am
by El Guapo
Has anyone seen a relatively objective description of the East Jerusalem eviction situation that seems to have sparked a lot of this?
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 10:46 am
by dbt1949
By this time Israel and the Palestinians hate each other so much there is no permanent solution to the conflict. The best we can hope for is a semi lasting cease fire.
And they had one until the Israelis kicked the Palestinians out of their homes to make way for Jewish settlers.
Imagine during Trumph's reign he decided to kick a bunch of people out of their homes to make way for republicans. Then beat the shit out of you for protesting and when you threw rocks and cherry bombs at them they sent in F-35s to bomb and strafe you.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 10:53 am
by Kurth
El Guapo wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 10:36 am
Has anyone seen a relatively objective description of the East Jerusalem eviction situation that seems to have sparked a lot of this?
My understanding is this is MOTSS.
Israeli's with a claim that they were evicted from the Sheik Jarrah neighborhood of East Jerusalem by Palestinians during the 1948 war are entitled to reclaim that property if they can establish their claim is valid. So, now, four Israeli settlers are trying to evict 4 Palestinian families from the area on that basis, and there have been a number of recent court rulings advancing (and now delaying) a decision on the case. These evictions have happened periodically over the years, and the protests have really ramped up with this latest one.
In some ways, it encapsulates so much of the problem with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. The roots go so far back, and there are so many wrongs claimed by one side against the other and back and forth and back and forth over time. I thought Trevor Noah's piece (linked to above) hit the nail on the head.
And I get his call to just take an objective look at who's getting killed and who has the overwhelming force. But I don't see how that's really a solution. Until both sides can reconcile the fact that old debts will never be paid in full (or maybe even in part) and the only way forward is to look to the future and not be anchored to the past . . . It will just be MOTSS again and again and again.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:40 pm
by dbt1949
It boils down to the Jews got treated like shit in WW2 and decided to go back to the "old country" which didn't exist anymore because they had all left centuries before looking for a better life. They think god has given them this land for eternity.
The Palestinians who lived there now said no, you left and it is our land now. The British said no. this is our land now. We stole it fair and square from the Ottomans after WW1. But there is too much animosity between the two of you so we are leaving and you two can fight it out. So there!
The Jews outfought the Arabs because the Arabs bicker among themselves too much and the Jews found Israel and the United States recognized them. And gave them lots of aid.
They have hated each other ever since.
It will never end until Israel no longer exists.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:57 pm
by Defiant
Never mind... not worth the effort.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:32 pm
by malchior
El Guapo wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 10:36 am
Has anyone seen a relatively objective description of the East Jerusalem eviction situation that seems to have sparked a lot of this?
Nope. I was hoping to see it but tbh this does seem driven by the usual settler antagonism (agree with Kurth on the detail there). Bibi has been turning a blind eye because of all the governmental turmoil. In other words, I think this problem lives in the Knesset and boiled over on the streets as people took advantage of the power struggles.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Holman wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:56 am
There was a time when the US had enough global prestige to step in and broker a Middle-East cease-fire, but then we spent it all on Iraq and MAGA.
Nonsense, we still have enough prestige to step in, broker a cease fire, put in a minimal effort to go through the motions of a middle east peace process and then do a poor job following through.
The good thing is that our damaged global prestige won't matter much because Biden wants nothing to do with it - though he might get dragged into it against his will.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:36 pm
by El Guapo
Look, if Jared Kushner couldn't fix the problem, I don't know who can.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:41 pm
by Defiant
malchior wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:35 pm
The good thing is that our damaged global prestige won't matter much because Biden wants nothing to do with it - though he might get dragged into it against his will.
What? A President wanting to ignore the middle east peace process and getting dragged into it against his will? Why, that would never happen!
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:49 pm
by Defiant
“I have asked Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Hady Amr to go to the region immediately to meet with Israelis and Palestinians … he will urge, on my behalf and on behalf of President (Joe) Biden, a de-escalation of violence,” Secretary of State Antony Blinken said.
Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:58 pm
by Zarathud
It’s dirty local politics on top of a quagmire.
Netanyahu has lost 4 elections in 2 years but has divided the opposition so no one can form a government to remove him as Prime Minister. A new conflict undermines the ability of opposition to form an alternative coalition in their 4 week window. It also solidifies Netanyahu’s support on hard-line settlers.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 2:44 pm
by Kurth
Zarathud wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:58 pm
It’s dirty local politics on top of a quagmire.
Netanyahu has lost 4 elections in 2 years but has divided the opposition so no one can form a government to remove him as Prime Minister. A new conflict undermines the ability of opposition to form an alternative coalition in their 4 week window. It also solidifies Netanyahu’s support on hard-line settlers.
With dozens dead and hundreds injured, the initial two days of the renewed conflict brought fear and loss to millions in Gaza and Israel, but the escalating crisis has bolstered the political fortunes of Hamas, the Islamist militant group that runs the Gaza Strip, and of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel.
A senior political leader for Hamas struck a triumphant tone on Tuesday over how rapidly the clashes in Jerusalem on Monday had expanded into a broader problem for Israel, as it faced rocket attacks from Gaza that threatened Israeli cities.
“We have managed to create an equation linking the Jerusalem and Gaza fronts,” the leader, Ismail Haniya, said in a speech recorded in Qatar and aired on a Hamas-affiliated television channel. “They are inseparable. Jerusalem and Gaza are one.”
Since coming to power in Gaza in 2007, Hamas has lost popularity because of what many Gazans see as its authoritarian approach and poor governance.
For Hamas, the conflict has allowed it to revitalize its claims to the leadership of Palestinian resistance and has framed its rocket attacks as a direct response to the Israeli police raids on the Aqsa Mosque compound, a religious site in East Jerusalem. In the process, the group presented itself as a protector of Palestinian protesters and worshipers in the city.
For Mr. Netanyahu, the conflict — along with the divisions it fosters among the opposition parties currently negotiating a coalition to topple him from power — has given him half a chance of remaining prime minister, just days after it seemed as if he might be on the way out.
“It is the story of every previous war between Israel and Hamas,” said Ghassan Khatib, a politics expert at Birzeit University in the occupied West Bank. Both governments “come out of it victorious, and the public of Gaza comes out of it as losers.”
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:34 pm
by malchior
Yep - and I think Hamas got a bit of a propaganda victory. Videos of the Isreali's knocking over a 13-story residential building are going to be smack dab in the center of their online messaging. 'Look how reckless they are'. Etc.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 4:41 pm
by Kurth
malchior wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 3:34 pm
Yep - and I think Hamas got a bit of a propaganda victory. Videos of the Isreali's knocking over a 13-story residential building are going to be smack dab in the center of their online messaging. 'Look how reckless they are'. Etc.
Agreed. Of course, the messaging won't include the fact that the IDF sent out drones in advance to give warning to the residents of the building to evacuate.
It's good that they do this, and I'm sure it does help avoid civilian deaths to some extent, but it always astounds me the extent to which the IDF seems to think these types of warning measures will help them in the PR/Comms war. They never, never do.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
malchior wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 3:34 pm
Yep - and I think Hamas got a bit of a propaganda victory. Videos of the Isreali's knocking over a 13-story residential building are going to be smack dab in the center of their online messaging. 'Look how reckless they are'. Etc.
Agreed. Of course, the messaging won't include the fact that the IDF sent out drones in advance to give warning to the residents of the building to evacuate.
RIght. I saw the video and I knew that was going to be in propaganda videos. It just looks bad.
It's good that they do this, and I'm sure it does help avoid civilian deaths to some extent, but it always astounds me the extent to which the IDF seems to think these types of warning measures will help them in the PR/Comms war. They never, never do.
If they knocked it over and hundreds were injured and/or killed the world would be up in arms. Of course the alternative is don't do it. They reported that they targeted it because militants had offices there. To me it smacks of let's punch them hard in the face for the sake of it even if it costs us. It's hard liner thinking at its worst. As mentioned above everyone has an interest in this being messy. Which is why I do hope we stay out of it for once.
Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 6:03 pm
by Defiant
Opposition leader Yair Lapid says: “The rioters in Lod and Acre don’t represent every Israeli Arab, the rioters in Bat Yam and the members of La Familia, Lehava and Kahana Lives [far-right Jewish groups] are a bunch of pathetic racists who don’t represent Israel’s Jews.”
He says that “the vast majority of the people of Israel, Jews and Arabs, are far better than this. The majority of us believe in coexistence. The role of leadership on both sides is to lower the flames, call on everyone to obey the law, reduce tensions and help restore order.”
