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Israel–United States relations and associated politics

For discussion of religion and politics

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El Guapo
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by El Guapo »

hepcat wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:34 pm
Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:06 pm It also potentially lays the groundwork for American Jews being told they aren't American, which obviously can lead to all sorts of bad things.
Ouch. I didn't even think of that.
Yup.

Though looks like early reporting screwed the pooch, as the order doesn't seem to define Judaism as a national origin.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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It also potentially lays the groundwork for American Jews being told they aren't American, which obviously can lead to all sorts of bad things.
Jews being told they're not really true Americans (or true French or British or what have you) is nothing new.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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But lets avoid codifying it all the same.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Does it matter? Does it excuse bigotry against Irish Americans or German Americans or Kurdish Americans or Mexican Americans or Egyptian Americans or Romani Americans or Japanese Americans or French Americans? (Hell, other than Native Americans, we all have some national origin in addition to being American.) Does it even excuse bigotry against those who have dual citizenship?

Those that are going to attack people for having a different national origin were already likely to attack them before for being different.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Defiant wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:19 pm Does it matter?
Yes
Defiant wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:19 pm Those that are going to attack people for having a different national origin were already likely to attack them before for being different.
But let's not go out of our way to enable it.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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hepcat wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:36 pm
Defiant wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:19 pm Does it matter?
Yes
Defiant wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:19 pm Those that are going to attack people for having a different national origin were already likely to attack them before for being different.
But let's not go out of our way to enable it.
Should we also ignore that a huge chunk of the American population has other national origins as well, and pretend that everyone is just some plain vanilla "American", to protect them, too? Maybe we should also ask Jews to remove their Kippah's too, to stop them "enabling" discrimination?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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I'm the one saying it shouldn't be codified, remember? I think you need to go back through the replies again. Right now it it seems you just want to argue with someone.
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(And it wouldn't work, either)

Post by Defiant »

hepcat wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:54 pm I'm the one saying it shouldn't be codified, remember?
Seems to me that being against codifying it, because it would enable anti-Semitism, would be consistent with removing legal recognition of all national origins of everyone (other than American) to stop enabling other bigotry based on national origin.
Last edited by Defiant on Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Ah, Whataboutism. A common staple of political discourse.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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I think that's more of a slippery slope argument.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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I don't see that.

If legal recognition of W as a national origin "enables" bigotry against people of W-descent, why is the same not true of X, Y and Z?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Because W isn't a country of origin, it's a religion. That's like saying that every Episcopalian is now to be considered English.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Let's end this whole silly thing:

Any kind of discrimination is bad.

We good now?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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But enough about your dating life.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:24 pm Because W isn't a country of origin, it's a religion. That's like saying that every Episcopalian is now to be considered English.
Well, that's the first time the word "country" has popped up - the phrase used was "national origin". Two of the examples I posted included stateless nations.

As for your example, my understanding is that you have to be religiously Episcopalian in order to be Episcopalian. Judaism doesn't require that you be a religious Jew in order to be Jewish . As I said before, Judaism has, historically, been seen as a culture, an ethnicity and as a nation in addition to being a religion.

(I'm also not sure how having another country involved changes anything. "Well, I was going to hate on them damned hyphenated Americans, but now that I know that there's another country involved, I guess that's going to curb my hatred"?)
Last edited by Defiant on Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:24 pm Because W isn't a country of origin, it's a religion.
Ethnicity, not a religion, right?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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And....government coalition talks failed again, so now they get to have a THIRD general election. Good lord.

I mean, I have real issues with our fucked up electoral / governing system, but to give it credit, at least we don't have to go through repeated re-do elections. I'm also not totally sure what reason there is to expect the third election to produce a governing coalition when the first two couldn't.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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El Guapo wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:55 pm I'm also not totally sure what reason there is to expect the third election to produce a governing coalition when the first two couldn't.
Given the indictment, it's not clear that Netanyahu will still be Likud's leader (or whether there will be a cloud surrounding him that dissuades voters from voting for Likud). Also who knows who the voters will blame for the failure to achieve a coalition, and if that will affect the vote next time. :pop:
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Defiant wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:30 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:24 pm Because W isn't a country of origin, it's a religion. That's like saying that every Episcopalian is now to be considered English.
Well, that's the first time the word "country" has popped up - the phrase used was "national origin". Two of the examples I posted included stateless nations.

As for your example, my understanding is that you have to be religiously Episcopalian in order to be Episcopalian. Judaism doesn't require that you be a religious Jew in order to be Jewish . As I said before, Judaism has, historically, been seen as a culture, an ethnicity and as a nation in addition to being a religion.

(I'm also not sure how having another country involved changes anything. "Well, I was going to hate on them damned hyphenated Americans, but now that I know that there's another country involved, I guess that's going to curb my hatred"?)
Defiant, you are losing me when you say that “Judaism has historically been seen as a culture, ethnicity and as a nation in addition to being a religion.” I’m solidly with you on 3 out of 4 there. But not “nation.”

Today, being Jewish can certainly refer to your culture, ethnicity and or religion (you can be Jewish in any one of those aspects or all of them), but I don’t get nationality. Sure, today, Israel is a Jewish state and a designated sanctuary for the Jewish people, but since the diaspora, it’s been entirely separable from being Jewish.

I can be ethnically Jewish because I have Jewish ancestors.
I can be religiously Jewish because I choose to practice the religion (including if I convert).
I can be culturally Jewish if I take part in Jewish cultural celebrations and practices.
But I’m not Jewish just because I live in Israel, and if I live outside of Israel, I’m obviously not an Israeli just because I’m Jewish.

That’s why the reporting on this thing was lazy and stupid from the get go. It just doesn’t make any sense. What it means to be Jewish is a complicated question with many different interpretations, but one thing it unequivocally does NOT mean is that you share some nationality with all others who are also Jewish.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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I rarely agree with anything Kurth posts, but +1 to everything in that post.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Defiant wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:30 pm As I said before, Judaism has, historically, been seen as a culture, an ethnicity and as a nation in addition to being a religion.
History is the problem, though.

A lot of talk of "the Jewish nation" derives from a period when "nation" really meant "community of identification." People in the 19th century spoke of the "Jewish nation" (long before the state of Israel) the same way they spoke of "the German nation" (long before Bismarck). Nations in this sense are different from political states.

It's crucial to differentiate political Israel from Jewish identity for many reasons. One obvious one is that a quarter of the Israeli population practices a religion other than Judaism. Another is that there are probably more Jews in the USA than in Israel itself.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Kurth wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:52 pm
Defiant, you are losing me when you say that “Judaism has historically been seen as a culture, ethnicity and as a nation in addition to being a religion.” I’m solidly with you on 3 out of 4 there. But not “nation.”
Jews themselves considered themselves a nation and, through much of history, others agreed:
Throughout the middle ages and into the 20th century, most of the European world agreed that Jews constituted a distinct nation. This concept of nation does not require that a nation have either a territory nor a government, but rather, it identifies, as a nation any distinct group of people with a common language and culture. Only in the 19th century did it become common to assume that each nation should have its own distinct government; this is the political philosophy of nationalism. In fact, Jews had a remarkable degree of self-government until the 19th century. So long as Jews lived in their ghettos, they were allowed to collect their own taxes, run their own courts, and otherwise behave as citizens of a landless and distinctly second-class Jewish nation.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ar ... a-religion

And I would argue that they're just as much a nation as the Kurds or the Scots or the Welsh or the Roma.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Defiant wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:10 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:52 pm
Defiant, you are losing me when you say that “Judaism has historically been seen as a culture, ethnicity and as a nation in addition to being a religion.” I’m solidly with you on 3 out of 4 there. But not “nation.”
Jews themselves considered themselves a nation and, through much of history, others agreed:
Throughout the middle ages and into the 20th century, most of the European world agreed that Jews constituted a distinct nation. This concept of nation does not require that a nation have either a territory nor a government, but rather, it identifies, as a nation any distinct group of people with a common language and culture. Only in the 19th century did it become common to assume that each nation should have its own distinct government; this is the political philosophy of nationalism. In fact, Jews had a remarkable degree of self-government until the 19th century. So long as Jews lived in their ghettos, they were allowed to collect their own taxes, run their own courts, and otherwise behave as citizens of a landless and distinctly second-class Jewish nation.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ar ... a-religion

And I would argue that they're just as much a nation as the Kurds or the Scots or the Welsh.
I'd be wary of pronouncing on what Jews as a whole think. I've got a bunch of Jewish relatives who've never agreed on anything.

But your point proves my point. If Jews are inclined to think of themselves as a "nation," that's still something distinct and apart from the nation-state of Israel that has existed only since 1948.

Jewishness has a history (partly mythic) that reaches back thousands of years, but to equate that with modern Israel is like equating the storied realm of King Arthur with the modern United Kingdom.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Holman wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:16 pm

Jewishness has a history (partly mythic) that reaches back thousands of years, but to equate that with modern Israel is
... not at all what I did.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Holman »

Defiant wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:20 pm
Holman wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:16 pm [

Jewishness has a history (partly mythic) that reaches back thousands of years, but to equate that with modern Israel is
... not at all what I did.
My whole point there is that "nation" with reference to collective Jewish identity across Europe (your example) is not the same thing as the modern nation of Israel (even if the latter was formed with the help of many of the former). "Nation" and "nation" there might as well be different terms.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Holman wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:23 pm
My whole point there is that "nation" with reference to collective Jewish identity across Europe (your example) is not the same thing as the modern nation of Israel (even if the latter was formed with the help of many of the former). "Nation" and "nation" there might as well be different terms.
Perhaps they should, but they aren't. And from the point of preventing discrimination based on national origin, someone could be discriminated for being British, but they could also be discriminated for being Welsh or Scottish, even though the first is a Nation while the second two are nations. Should only Nations be considered for the purposes of the civil rights act, or should nations also be considered?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Wow, this went further into pedantry than I thought it would.

<edited>
Last edited by hepcat on Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by LawBeefaroni »

hepcat wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:48 am Wow, this went further into pedantry than I thought I would.
Than you thought you would? What an asinine statement, you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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lol...early morning typo for the win!
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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NYT
With Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s political future on the line — and possibly Israel’s — members of his conservative Likud party voted Thursday on whether to stick with their scandal-scarred leader or replace him ahead of a general election in March.

Mr. Netanyahu, who was indicted last month on corruption charges including bribery, was widely expected to prevail over his challenger, Gideon Saar, a seasoned but less popular party veteran. Even so, this is the most serious challenge to the prime minister’s party leadership since 2005, and fears of a low turnout on a day of bad weather made the outcome harder to predict.

The result of the vote, expected to be known early Friday, will determine whether Mr. Netanyahu, Israel’s longest-serving prime minister, will lead Likud into the country’s third parliamentary election in less than a year.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:06 pm CNN
Benjamin Netanyahu ... said he expected US President Donald Trump to present his Middle East peace plan just days after Israelis vote next Tuesday, September 17, and that in co-ordination with the US, he would also look to apply sovereignty over all Israeli settlements in the West Bank.
CNN
he Trump administration has invited Israel's Prime Minister and opposition leader to the White House Tuesday as it plans to finally unveil its long-awaited vision for ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

President Donald Trump, speaking to reporters aboard Air Force One on Thursday, said he would release the Mideast plan before the Tuesday meeting. "Sometime prior to that," Trump said, shortly before arriving in Florida. "Probably we'll release it a little bit prior to that."

The visit, scheduled just weeks before Israel holds its third elections in a year...
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Within hours of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu withdrawing his immunity request on Tuesday, Attorney-General Avichai Mandelblit filed an indictment with the Jerusalem District Court against him for bribery, fraud and breach of trust.
Bribery indictment against Netanyahu filed with court
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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WaPo
Netanyahu appeared to acquiesce to U.S. pressure Tuesday, saying he would hold off on annexation action until a new government is formed after Israeli elections next month. Kushner and other U.S. officials had sent signals both publicly and privately that Israel should not move too fast to reap what many of Netanyahu's pro-settlement political base saw as the rewards of the plan released last week.

Israeli media has extensively reported grumblings among key Netanyahu backers, with David Elhayani, chairman of the powerful Yesha Council, which oversees more than 150 settlements, accusing Kushner of betraying Netanyahu and not being honest with him.

“Kushner took a knife and put it in Netanyahu’s back,” he told The Washington Post. “Kushner misled the prime minister. He misled everybody. He knew for a long time that Netanyahu wanted to declare sovereignty over the Jordan Valley and northern Dead Sea — he said it many times over the last year. Gentlemen just don’t act this way.”
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Israel has had it's third election in a year and while Likud has the most seats, it's possible that if the results stay as they are, it's possible we could see a fourth (however, I think it's likely Likud's coalition will get a slight majority when all counting is finished).
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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I swear there was a post here a second ago about the latest election. :confusion-shrug:

Edit: And now it's back! :doh: :lol:
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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I needed to fix something in the post. :ninja:
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Defiant »

Liberman sets out demands for coalition government, Gantz concurs

Lieberman, head of a right-wing nationalist party, who won 7 seats in the recent elections, has made the following conditions to join a coalition

- Monthly stipend income to pensioners
- Decisions about public transportation on Shabbat to be made by local authorities
- Draft of ultra-Orthodox
- Civil Marriage
- Allowing all city rabbis to make decisions regarding conversions.

Gantz, head of the left-center Blue-White party, has publicly accepted the conditions. (But keep in mind, Netanyahu gets the first opportunity to form a coalition)
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