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Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

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Drazzil
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Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by Drazzil » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:53 pm

Why doesen't Trump's proposed "citizen" question on the census violate the 5th amendment against self incrimination? There seems to be established case law that it does, so wtf?
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Re: Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:36 pm

Drazzil wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:53 pm
Why doesen't Trump's proposed "citizen" question on the census violate the 5th amendment against self incrimination? There seems to be established case law that it does, so wtf?
The government isn't forcing you to answer. They can't even make you fill out your census.
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Re: Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by LawBeefaroni » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:59 pm

Yeah, asking questions doesn't violate the 5th Amendment. Forcing some one to provide a self-incriminating answer to a question does.
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Re: Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by Drazzil » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:18 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:36 pm
Drazzil wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:53 pm
Why doesen't Trump's proposed "citizen" question on the census violate the 5th amendment against self incrimination? There seems to be established case law that it does, so wtf?
The government isn't forcing you to answer. They can't even make you fill out your census.
Well a letter says that you are legally required to answer the question under penalty of law. Leaving aside the fact that not answering the survey hasen't been prosecuted since the 70's. It's still legally required that you answer.
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Re: Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by Jeff V » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:51 pm

Google wrote:According to United States Code, Title 13 (Census), Chapter 7 (Offenses and Penalties), SubChapter II, if you're over 18 and refuse to answer all or part of the Census, you can be fined up to $100. If you give false answers, you're subject to a fine of up to $500.
That said, being in this country and not being a citizen is not necessarily a crime. That would have applied to my wife up to about a year ago, and still applies to some of her friends.

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Re: Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by Holman » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:06 pm

One of my early summer jobs was as a "Non-Response Followup Enumerator" after the 1990 census. I was supposed to go down a list knocking on doors and inviting people to fill out the census on their doorstep if they hadn't returned one.

At one point I was assigned an Atlanta neighborhood with many Cambodian families. After the first door or two, I could see someone walking briskly down the block and (presumably, as I don't speak Khmer) letting others know that I was from the government and counting people. They must have thought I was Immigration. No one answered a door after that.

The worst, though, were the McMansion subdivisions where red-faced rich whites slammed the door in my face after giving me an earful about the Goddamn Gubmit Sticking Its Nose In Their Business.
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Re: Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by Jeff V » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:09 pm

My position on this whole thing is the government ought to hedge their bets pending outcome of legal action and order census forms to be printed with and without the offensive question.
Spoiler:
I work for a company that has an already huge contract for printing and mailing census forms.

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Re: Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by Drazzil » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:30 pm

Jeff V wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:09 pm
My position on this whole thing is the government ought to hedge their bets pending outcome of legal action and order census forms to be printed with and without the offensive question.
Spoiler:
I work for a company that has an already huge contract for printing and mailing census forms.
There are laws that legally obligate people to answer said survey, why aren't the Dem's going after this on the basis of the 5th?
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Re: Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by ImLawBoy » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:11 pm

Drazzil wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:30 pm
Jeff V wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:09 pm
My position on this whole thing is the government ought to hedge their bets pending outcome of legal action and order census forms to be printed with and without the offensive question.
Spoiler:
I work for a company that has an already huge contract for printing and mailing census forms.
There are laws that legally obligate people to answer said survey, why aren't the Dem's going after this on the basis of the 5th?
Because the information isn't necessarily incriminating, probably. You can legally be in the country, be counted for the census, and not be a citizen.
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Re: Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:17 pm

It'ss also not the reason for the question.

The whole point of the question is to scare immigrants, legal or not, out of answering the census. So even making it optional would serve the GOPs gerrymandering purposes.
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Re: Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by ImLawBoy » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:38 pm

I don't want to completely dismiss potential 5th Amendment issues, because this kind of stuff is never that simple. I don't know the status of any lawsuits filed about this (if any), but I suspect that potential 5A issues would be a part of it (although only one piece of it). That may be a better argument for a courtroom than the public, though, because it essentially admits that the people affected by the 5A issues are here illegally. If the Dems were to publicly focus on that aspect of it, it might not go over as well with many in the public.
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Re: Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by Drazzil » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:24 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:38 pm
I don't want to completely dismiss potential 5th Amendment issues, because this kind of stuff is never that simple. I don't know the status of any lawsuits filed about this (if any), but I suspect that potential 5A issues would be a part of it (although only one piece of it). That may be a better argument for a courtroom than the public, though, because it essentially admits that the people affected by the 5A issues are here illegally. If the Dems were to publicly focus on that aspect of it, it might not go over as well with many in the public.
Thanks ImLawBoy! Clarifies it for me a lot. Ya'know, I think the Dem party should have the ACLU go after this as a proxy. Might spare the Dem party the unpopularity of going for this publically.
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Re: Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:29 pm

Opposition is focused on the motives, which is why the hard drive is so important.


Here's a quick recap.
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Re: Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by Jeff V » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:00 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:17 pm
It'ss also not the reason for the question.

The whole point of the question is to scare immigrants, legal or not, out of answering the census. So even making it optional would serve the GOPs gerrymandering purposes.
This, 100% Still, printing double the number of census forms is a prudent precaution. :dance:

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Re: Why doesen't Donald Trump's "citizen" question violate the 5th?

Post by Jeff V » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:06 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:11 pm
Because the information isn't necessarily incriminating, probably. You can legally be in the country, be counted for the census, and not be a citizen.
Incidentally, this week two friends made the jump from legal residents (married to citizens) to full citizens. Guessing by the political inclinations of their husbands, they will cancel each other out. That is, assuming their voter registrations are processed in a timely manner. My wife got notification of her registration about 2 weeks AFTER the mid-term elections (she became a citizen in early September).

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