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Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Who do you like best now?

Joe Biden
2
5%
Corey Booker
0
No votes
Pete Buttigeig
7
18%
Julian Castro
0
No votes
Kirsten Gillibrand
0
No votes
Kamala Harris
12
31%
Beto O'Rourke
0
No votes
Bernie Sanders
2
5%
Elizabeth Warren
15
38%
Andrew Yang
1
3%
 
Total votes: 39

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Combustible Lemur
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:16 am


Fireball wrote:The entire point of cutting Biden open, ripping out his entrails and dancing on them at the debate was to showcase the rhetorical skill and strategic thinking she could use against Trump. She caught Biden unaware this time. For both of them, and Warren, the later debates will show how they can learn, adapt and advance.

Right now, Harris is the only major candidate who has shown she can throw a truly devastating punch at a target who it’s not entirely safe to tangle with. That was a wise strategic decision, and likely one that Warren would have tried to pull off had she been in the debate with Biden.
Change from Trump, or change from the same old bullshit that put trump in office that, along with Russians, lost Hillary's election?

Agreed.

Wise strategic decisions are often contrived.
Will Harris throw contrived mud at Warren when they're the last two standing? Will she bend civility like Sanders? Will she race bomb for ambition like Facebook progressives? Will she sacrifice immigrants for centrists?
Last week it was an open question. This week I know.

I'm still pretty idealistic towards Warren. Let her drop a logically suspect bomb on Biden and maybe they'll be even again.

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Fireball » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:00 am

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:16 am
Fireball wrote:The entire point of cutting Biden open, ripping out his entrails and dancing on them at the debate was to showcase the rhetorical skill and strategic thinking she could use against Trump. She caught Biden unaware this time. For both of them, and Warren, the later debates will show how they can learn, adapt and advance.

Right now, Harris is the only major candidate who has shown she can throw a truly devastating punch at a target who it’s not entirely safe to tangle with. That was a wise strategic decision, and likely one that Warren would have tried to pull off had she been in the debate with Biden.
Change from Trump, or change from the same old bullshit that put trump in office that, along with Russians, lost Hillary's election?

Agreed.

Wise strategic decisions are often contrived.
Will Harris throw contrived mud at Warren when they're the last two standing? Will she bend civility like Sanders? Will she race bomb for ambition like Facebook progressives? Will she sacrifice immigrants for centrists?
Last week it was an open question. This week I know.

I'm still pretty idealistic towards Warren. Let her drop a logically suspect bomb on Biden and maybe they'll be even again.

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You are completely unmoored from reality. Biden deserved what he got. His comments were wrong, his defense of them was wrong, and he’s a lazy, shitty candidate. I prefer Warren to Harris, but nothing about that exchange should cause any reasonable person to have doubts about Harris.
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by El Guapo » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:07 am

FWIW I voted for Warren, though Harris is now my clear #2. Everything else aside Harris seems like the most politically talented candidate, which will likely matter a lot in the general election as well as while (hopefully) in office.

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Apollo » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:20 am

Fireball wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:00 am

...You are completely unmoored from reality. Biden deserved what he got. His comments were wrong, his defense of them was wrong, and he’s a lazy, shitty candidate. I prefer Warren to Harris, but nothing about that exchange should cause any reasonable person to have doubts about Harris.
The attitude you display here, and the attitude of many "progressives" over the last couple of years has made me seriously consider leaving the Democratic party and simply not voting (at least in national elections). The Left has suddenly become just as extreme in its attitudes as the Right, and I no longer feel comfortable considering myself a "Liberal". It's clear from people as varied as Michelle Goldberg to candidates like Harris, that the party no longer wants anything to do with old white men, so I guess I'll try to not let the door hit me on the way out.

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by El Guapo » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:25 am

Apollo wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:20 am
Fireball wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:00 am

...You are completely unmoored from reality. Biden deserved what he got. His comments were wrong, his defense of them was wrong, and he’s a lazy, shitty candidate. I prefer Warren to Harris, but nothing about that exchange should cause any reasonable person to have doubts about Harris.
The attitude you display here, and the attitude of many "progressives" over the last couple of years has made me seriously consider leaving the Democratic party and simply not voting (at least in national elections). The Left has suddenly become just as extreme in its attitudes as the Right, and I no longer feel comfortable considering myself a "Liberal". It's clear from people as varied as Michelle Goldberg to candidates like Harris, that the party no longer wants anything to do with old white men, so I guess I'll try to not let the door hit me on the way out.
Calm down man. Fireball tends to be a little aggressive in tone sometimes, but just focus on what was said. It's silly to go straight from Fireball's hyperbole to "the Democratic party no longer wants anything to do with old white men."

Or is the leap from Harris attacking Biden for his past opposition to bussing to "wanting nothing to do with old white men"?

Though you live in Alabama so it doesn't really matter anyway how or whether you vote in Presidential elections, thanks to the electoral college.

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Pyperkub » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:36 am

Apollo wrote:
Fireball wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:00 am

...You are completely unmoored from reality. Biden deserved what he got. His comments were wrong, his defense of them was wrong, and he’s a lazy, shitty candidate. I prefer Warren to Harris, but nothing about that exchange should cause any reasonable person to have doubts about Harris.
The attitude you display here, and the attitude of many "progressives" over the last couple of years has made me seriously consider leaving the Democratic party and simply not voting (at least in national elections). The Left has suddenly become just as extreme in its attitudes as the Right, and I no longer feel comfortable considering myself a "Liberal". It's clear from people as varied as Michelle Goldberg to candidates like Harris, that the party no longer wants anything to do with old white men, so I guess I'll try to not let the door hit me on the way out.
IMHO, This was a test Biden failed. It was an obvious attack that he didn't prepare for at all and it showed.

There definitely has been an element of taking this for granted, not unlike Hillary in both 2008 and 2016.

The 2020 general is likely to be one of the dirtiest mudslinging campaigns in modern history, and if Biden was so unprepared for this, how is he going to respond when Trump, fox, the Russians, etc. just start making things up to attack him. Kerry failed his swift boat test in 2004 too.
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by malchior » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:40 am

Apollo wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:20 am
Fireball wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:00 am

...You are completely unmoored from reality. Biden deserved what he got. His comments were wrong, his defense of them was wrong, and he’s a lazy, shitty candidate. I prefer Warren to Harris, but nothing about that exchange should cause any reasonable person to have doubts about Harris.
The attitude you display here, and the attitude of many "progressives" over the last couple of years has made me seriously consider leaving the Democratic party and simply not voting (at least in national elections). The Left has suddenly become just as extreme in its attitudes as the Right, and I no longer feel comfortable considering myself a "Liberal".
This is demonstrably untrue. The Democratic party aligns well with European "liberal" parties. The Republican party is to the right of the extreme right-wing parties in Europe. The GOP has just pulled the frame so far out of whack which is sort of the point. They have built mechanisms to better sell their message as less extreme than it actually is. That has distorted our political view of what "normal" is.

The tldr; version is that just because some people in the Democratic party are advocating strongly for relatively normal things like universal healthcare is not a sign of extremism. It is just an attempt to get in line with the rest of the advanced world.
It's clear from people as varied as Michelle Goldberg to candidates like Harris, that the party no longer wants anything to do with old white men, so I guess I'll try to not let the door hit me on the way out.
I think you'd find that the relationship is the other way around mostly.

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by hepcat » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:50 am

El Guapo wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:25 am

Calm down man. Fireball tends to be a little aggressive in tone sometimes, but just focus on what was said.
Oh thank goodness. He's just being "aggressive".
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:06 am

malchior wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:40 am
Apollo wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:20 am
Fireball wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:00 am

...You are completely unmoored from reality. Biden deserved what he got. His comments were wrong, his defense of them was wrong, and he’s a lazy, shitty candidate. I prefer Warren to Harris, but nothing about that exchange should cause any reasonable person to have doubts about Harris.
The attitude you display here, and the attitude of many "progressives" over the last couple of years has made me seriously consider leaving the Democratic party and simply not voting (at least in national elections). The Left has suddenly become just as extreme in its attitudes as the Right, and I no longer feel comfortable considering myself a "Liberal".
This is demonstrably untrue. The Democratic party aligns well with European "liberal" parties. The Republican party is to the right of the extreme right-wing parties in Europe. The GOP has just pulled the frame so far out of whack which is sort of the point. They have built mechanisms to better sell their message as less extreme than it actually is. That has distorted our political view of what "normal" is.

The tldr; version is that just because some people in the Democratic party are advocating strongly for relatively normal things like universal healthcare is not a sign of extremism. It is just an attempt to get in line with the rest of the advanced world.
It's clear from people as varied as Michelle Goldberg to candidates like Harris, that the party no longer wants anything to do with old white men, so I guess I'll try to not let the door hit me on the way out.
I think you'd find that the relationship is the other way around mostly.
It's the sustained drumbeat of extremism from the Left.

You know how we assume, or at least hope, that the right wing extremism will drive rational individuals out of the GOP? Well, it goes both ways.

I know people, friends even, who talk about total prison abolition. They use the terms like "leveraged white privilege" like every 40 seconds. I want none of what they're drinking. Figuratively, of course. I'll drink with them any time.
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by hepcat » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:13 am

I have to agree. I may not want to admit it in the face of Trump brand extremism (We have the biggest, the TASTIEST extremism!), but liberal extremism also exists and can sometimes exhibit an equal amount of unfair bias and exclusion.
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by malchior » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:24 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:06 am
malchior wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:40 am
Apollo wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:20 am
Fireball wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:00 am

...You are completely unmoored from reality. Biden deserved what he got. His comments were wrong, his defense of them was wrong, and he’s a lazy, shitty candidate. I prefer Warren to Harris, but nothing about that exchange should cause any reasonable person to have doubts about Harris.
The attitude you display here, and the attitude of many "progressives" over the last couple of years has made me seriously consider leaving the Democratic party and simply not voting (at least in national elections). The Left has suddenly become just as extreme in its attitudes as the Right, and I no longer feel comfortable considering myself a "Liberal".
This is demonstrably untrue. The Democratic party aligns well with European "liberal" parties. The Republican party is to the right of the extreme right-wing parties in Europe. The GOP has just pulled the frame so far out of whack which is sort of the point. They have built mechanisms to better sell their message as less extreme than it actually is. That has distorted our political view of what "normal" is.

The tldr; version is that just because some people in the Democratic party are advocating strongly for relatively normal things like universal healthcare is not a sign of extremism. It is just an attempt to get in line with the rest of the advanced world.
It's clear from people as varied as Michelle Goldberg to candidates like Harris, that the party no longer wants anything to do with old white men, so I guess I'll try to not let the door hit me on the way out.
I think you'd find that the relationship is the other way around mostly.
It's the sustained drumbeat of extremism from the Left.

You know how we assume, or at least hope, that the right wing extremism will drive rational individuals out of the GOP? Well, it goes both ways.
I hear this but again the scale is freaking completely different.
I know people, friends even, who talk about total prison abolition. They use the terms like "leveraged white privilege" like every 40 seconds. I want none of what they're drinking. Figuratively, of course. I'll drink with them any time.
I hear this but none of this is in the national party platform to any significant degree. They are true outliers. Go check out the Republican party platform - it is again to the right of white power groups in Europe. Maybe it doesn't have un-coded white power in there but everything about it is a regressive extremist viewpoint that the entirety of the party has signed onto. There is nothing close to this happening on the left...at least yet.

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by NickAragua » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:32 am

Yeah, I'm not terribly happy with a lot of the attitudes held by the more uh, "enthusiastic" members of the democratic party. However, the republicans are literally the "pro fascism/human extinction" party, so I don't really see that I have much choice in who to vote for.

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by hepcat » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:41 am

Oh, don't get me wrong. The clear winner in the "worst extremism" department can be found in the GOP. I'm just saying it also exists in the liberal spectrum. I think to deny that is to risk alienating people who feel like they don't have a home if they lean more centrist.
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by coopasonic » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:49 am

If human rights for all, including healthcare, is extreme then I guess I am extreme. *shrug* None of what the left is trying to do will benefit me personally in any way that I can think of. I'm ok with that. I'm doing alright. There are many others that need the help and I'm on board with doing something about that.

I am not sure what on the left is really extreme, but the right is literally fucking the planet, sucking up to dictators, denying human rights to anyone who is "other" and giving everything to those who least need it. I think I will stick with the "extreme" left.
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by malchior » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:49 am

hepcat wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:41 am
Oh, don't get me wrong. The clear winner in the "worst extremism" department can be found in the GOP. I'm just saying it also exists in the liberal spectrum. I think to deny that is to risk alienating people who feel like they don't have a home if they lean more centrist.
Yeah - I get that but I also feel like you have to frame the discussion right. Old white men getting turned off by progressive speech? I don't actually think it is a big factor since they are already on the crazy train in huge numbers. The Dems need to win over a bunch of the "middle" to be sure but a lot of data suggest the middle agrees with them. The problem is the mainstream Dems can't seem to communicate this consistently.

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by LordMortis » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:08 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:13 am
I have to agree. I may not want to admit it in the face of Trump brand extremism (We have the biggest, the TASTIEST extremism!), but liberal extremism also exists and can sometimes exhibit an equal amount of unfair bias and exclusion.

The difference is that liberal extremists don't have control. It's something to be vigilant against but it's not knocking down the gates... Unless you listen to those who think anything outside my GOP right or wrong is liberal extremism.
coopasonic wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:49 am
If human rights for all, including healthcare, is extreme then I guess I am extreme. *shrug* None of what the left is trying to do will benefit me personally in any way that I can think of. I'm ok with that. I'm doing alright. There are many others that need the help and I'm on board with doing something about that.

I am not sure what on the left is really extreme, but the right is literally fucking the planet, sucking up to dictators, denying human rights to anyone who is "other" and giving everything to those who least need it. I think I will stick with the "extreme" left.
The ACA or single payer or a host of other things gives me options in life. Aside from that nothing else benefits me directly and usually does the opposite. I have no kids and live the middle of the largest body of clean drinking water in the world with temperate climate that actually benefits from things like a polar vortex so even a 20 year environmental doom isn't really directly my problem. Still, I don't take comfort in walking the footsteps of the dinosaurs.

The most extremist thing I see tends to be loan forgiveness and free college no strings moving forward. I don't agree with it but I'm willing to come to the table given the weight of everything else.

To listen to enlightened, the extremism being forced on them is all about the Dreamers who don't pay taxes but get free health care and full rides to the college of their choice simply because they born here illegally or we deported their parents and let them stay or something.

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by coopasonic » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:18 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:08 pm
The most extremist thing I see tends to be loan forgiveness and free college no strings moving forward. I don't agree with it but I'm willing to come to the table given the weight of everything else.
I forgot that this one could potentially benefit me personally. I have 9 and 13 year old children that will likely be headed to college eventually, but we have the money to pay for it regardless. Apparently the cost of a college education has gotten out of hand. If something can be done about that without putting piles more money into the hands of those who don't need it, I am still ok with that. I don't think it is really a key voting issue for me.
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:31 pm

coopasonic wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:49 am
If human rights for all, including healthcare, is extreme then I guess I am extreme. *shrug* None of what the left is trying to do will benefit me personally in any way that I can think of. I'm ok with that. I'm doing alright. There are many others that need the help and I'm on board with doing something about that.
"Human rights for all" is vague goodness like "universal liberty" is vague goodness. It means nothing until you get down to interpretation and implementation.

"I want to do good" isn't extreme. "I want to do good by [X]" could be, depending on X.
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:38 pm


Fireball wrote:[

You are completely unmoored from reality. Biden deserved what he got. His comments were wrong, his defense of them was wrong, and he’s a lazy, shitty candidate. I prefer Warren to Harris, but nothing about that exchange should cause any reasonable person to have doubts about Harris.
I'm confused.
What's makes me unmootrd from reality. That I like a candidate a little less because she used a contrived and pre designed speech to sell merch, but not so much that she changed in my candidate rankings? Still # 2, for like the fourth time.
Or is it that dumpster fire isn't a negative enough description for Biden's campaign.
Or maybe that Warren despite her excessive folksiness has the policy experience without the seemingly naked ambition of Harris?

Apollo is being hyperbolic but he's not wrong about the perception of democrats eating their own over purity tests.

I clearly agree with Fireball on three out of three points and perceive the value of Harris's tactics slightly differently. And I'm an unmoored idiot not dog piling on the out of date old white guy.

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:44 pm

Get out the way!
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Fireball » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:02 pm

Apollo wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:20 am
Fireball wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:00 am

...You are completely unmoored from reality. Biden deserved what he got. His comments were wrong, his defense of them was wrong, and he’s a lazy, shitty candidate. I prefer Warren to Harris, but nothing about that exchange should cause any reasonable person to have doubts about Harris.
The attitude you display here, and the attitude of many "progressives" over the last couple of years has made me seriously consider leaving the Democratic party and simply not voting (at least in national elections).
What "attitude"? The attitude that it's not okay to tell "good old days" stories that are fundamentally about how easy it was for white people to get along back when black people were being actively oppressed? Because that's what Biden was doing. His position on busing in the 1970s was morally abhorrent and it is not acceptable for him to pretend otherwise. Joe Biden is not a racist, but it is undeniable that he based his early career on an explicitly racist policy, and he deserves to be challenged on it. How is that remotely unacceptable?
It's clear from people as varied as Michelle Goldberg to candidates like Harris, that the party no longer wants anything to do with old white men, so I guess I'll try to not let the door hit me on the way out.
That's an impressive little pity party you're throwing yourself there, but it's not based on anything I said.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Fireball » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:08 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:41 am
Oh, don't get me wrong. The clear winner in the "worst extremism" department can be found in the GOP. I'm just saying it also exists in the liberal spectrum. I think to deny that is to risk alienating people who feel like they don't have a home if they lean more centrist.
There are definitely extremists inside the Democratic coalition. They don't have the reins of power like they do in the GOP. I think the tactics of many self-proclaimed "antifa" groups are unacceptable. I think the idea of letting presently-imprisoned felons cast ballots in elections goes too far. I think the fetishization of Canadian-style universal healthcare is a major obstacle to achieving healthcare for all Americans. But you don't see any of these extremists points of view on this board very often.

And certainly the position that "it's okay to aggressively criticize people telling stories about the good old days when you could join hands with segregationists in your efforts to keep black kids out of white schools" isn't that extreme.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Fireball » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:11 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:08 pm
The most extremist thing I see tends to be loan forgiveness and free college no strings moving forward. I don't agree with it but I'm willing to come to the table given the weight of everything else.
This wouldn't directly benefit you, but it would have a great net positive impact on the economy as a whole. Forgiving student loans would free up millions of dollars presently being wasted on loan payments by young people. Restoring the proper level of state funding for public universities (ie, the same system the Boomers had, where public colleges were all but free) would make our economy far more competitive in the long term. These aren't radical ideas — they're just undoing the selfish, reactionary actions of the Boomers.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Fireball » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:18 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:38 pm
I'm confused.
What's makes me unmootrd from reality.
The notion that Harris's kneecapping of Biden somehow means that she's about to embark on a Sanders-like burn-it-all-down approach. Harris is not Sanders. She's not a bomb thrower. She's a center-left progressive not some sort of unhinged radical. Biden has been warned for years to stop telling stories about the good old days when he and his segregationist buddies teamed up to stop black kids from going to white schools. Harris, being someone whose life was made possible by busing, finally took the swing at Biden that he's had coming to him. It wasn't "contrived" — it's a legitimate, important part of her personal backstory.

If it's too much of a "purity test" to take the position that the Democratic nominee shouldn't be someone who built their early career around working with racists to keep black kids out of white schools, what is an acceptable line to draw?

I want the Democratic nominee to be someone who can look at an opponent, identify their weakness, and move against it. That's what it'll take to beat Trump. Harris is surging in the polling right now. I'm very hopeful that Biden will just go away and the final primary can be between Warren and Harris, either of whom would be an excellent nominee.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by ImLawBoy » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:23 pm

malchior wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:49 am
hepcat wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:41 am
Oh, don't get me wrong. The clear winner in the "worst extremism" department can be found in the GOP. I'm just saying it also exists in the liberal spectrum. I think to deny that is to risk alienating people who feel like they don't have a home if they lean more centrist.
Yeah - I get that but I also feel like you have to frame the discussion right. Old white men getting turned off by progressive speech? I don't actually think it is a big factor since they are already on the crazy train in huge numbers. The Dems need to win over a bunch of the "middle" to be sure but a lot of data suggest the middle agrees with them. The problem is the mainstream Dems can't seem to communicate this consistently.
The italics and bold part is likely wrong and it's a dangerous attitude. I shared an anecdote in another thread about the two old white men I had lunch with the other day, and they were both very put off by Harris's attacks on Biden. One of them is no risk to not vote for whoever the eventual D nominee is, but the other is a moderate R who is currently planning on voting D because he hates Trump. I'm willing to bet there are a significant number of potential voters in that category, and writing them off risks them going back to R, voting a third party, or just sitting out the election.

One thing to keep in mind, however, is that this is the primary. It will naturally play to the left. Eventually someone will be the nominee, the other candidates will fall in line with their support (maybe grudgingly in Bernie's case), and the candidate will be able to take more centrist positions in the general to try to win back some of the fence-sitters.
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Defiant » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:23 pm

His position on busing in the 1970s was morally abhorrent and it is not acceptable for him to pretend otherwise.
First of all, his position was the same as that of half of black people at the time (and even less popular among whites and blacks earlier). (and apparently, are we going to say they had morally abhorrent views as well?) One can oppose forcing kids to have to travel a long distance just to get to school without being morally abhorrent.



Second, many people (black and white) who supported integration, but also opposed using busing to achieve it. It's not a (sorry) black or white issue.

Finally, it looks like it had mixed results:
By the late 1980s and early 1990s, mandatory busing was slowly disappearing across the United States as a result of changing housing patterns, although a handful of school districts remained under such court orders. The legacy of busing remains controversial; while opponents argue that forced busing did little to change the racial makeup of most schools and school districts, proponents counter that such extreme measures were necessary to finally implement the reforms directed by Brown.
link

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:34 pm

Fireball wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:38 pm
I'm confused.
What's makes me unmootrd from reality.
The notion that Harris's kneecapping of Biden somehow means that she's about to embark on a Sanders-like burn-it-all-down approach. Harris is not Sanders. She's not a bomb thrower. She's a center-left progressive not some sort of unhinged radical. Biden has been warned for years to stop telling stories about the good old days when he and his segregationist buddies teamed up to stop black kids from going to white schools. Harris, being someone whose life was made possible by busing, finally took the swing at Biden that he's had coming to him. It wasn't "contrived" — it's a legitimate, important part of her personal backstory.

If it's too much of a "purity test" to take the position that the Democratic nominee shouldn't be someone who built their early career around working with racists to keep black kids out of white schools, what is an acceptable line to draw?

I want the Democratic nominee to be someone who can look at an opponent, identify their weakness, and move against it. That's what it'll take to beat Trump. Harris is surging in the polling right now. I'm very hopeful that Biden will just go away and the final primary can be between Warren and Harris, either of whom would be an excellent nominee.
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Defiant » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:35 pm

Fireball wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:18 pm
She's a center-left progressive not some sort of unhinged radical.
While I don't think she's some "unhinged radical", her voting record is almost the same as Warren's (also not an "unhinged radical"), so I wouldn't call her "center-left" at all. Some of her campaigning also suggested to me that (eg, she's twice stated that she supported eliminating private healthcare, but walked that back)

That said, some of her other campaigning appears to be intentionally designed to be vague (eg, during her town hall, she frequently said "we should have a conversation about that" or similar, in order to avoid directly answering questions that would pin her down, and could help in pivoting towards the entire electorate during the general election (even if such equivocating could put off some people)).

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by coopasonic » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:00 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:31 pm
coopasonic wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:49 am
If human rights for all, including healthcare, is extreme then I guess I am extreme. *shrug* None of what the left is trying to do will benefit me personally in any way that I can think of. I'm ok with that. I'm doing alright. There are many others that need the help and I'm on board with doing something about that.
"Human rights for all" is vague goodness like "universal liberty" is vague goodness. It means nothing until you get down to interpretation and implementation.

"I want to do good" isn't extreme. "I want to do good by [X]" could be, depending on X.
I tried to elucidate my statement here in response to this, but it turns out it is hard, not just the who but the what. I want discrimination and bias based on facts of existence (sexuality, gender, birthplace, etc) to die. Obviously legislating that is... problematic. I don't know. Be better!
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Daehawk » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:04 pm

You're not going to beat Trump with Warren. I feel that if the Dems dont go with Biden then we just shoot ourselves in the foot again and wait another 4 years.
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Defiant » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:21 pm

Daehawk wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:04 pm
You're not going to beat Trump with Warren. I feel that if the Dems dont go with Biden then we just shoot ourselves in the foot again and wait another 4 years.
I think any of the major candidates have the ability to win a general election against trump, though I also think they can all lose, too.

Though I think Warren would have a harder time winning than some of the other candidates.

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by malchior » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:50 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:23 pm
malchior wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:49 am
hepcat wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:41 am
Oh, don't get me wrong. The clear winner in the "worst extremism" department can be found in the GOP. I'm just saying it also exists in the liberal spectrum. I think to deny that is to risk alienating people who feel like they don't have a home if they lean more centrist.
Yeah - I get that but I also feel like you have to frame the discussion right. Old white men getting turned off by progressive speech? I don't actually think it is a big factor since they are already on the crazy train in huge numbers. The Dems need to win over a bunch of the "middle" to be sure but a lot of data suggest the middle agrees with them. The problem is the mainstream Dems can't seem to communicate this consistently.
The italics and bold part is likely wrong and it's a dangerous attitude. I shared an anecdote in another thread about the two old white men I had lunch with the other day, and they were both very put off by Harris's attacks on Biden.
This is the difference between an anecdote and data. It is a little hard to parse out but white, males 55+ are more likely to be self-identified Conservatives and they approve of Trump in very high numbers (80+%). Is it all of them? No but they have a very strong affinity compared to other groups. That said it is true that "writing them off" is not the best course but they are the group you have to factor as being the worst investment in time and resources now (and eventually long-term as well). Also I'll point out that why they were put off is a pretty complex equation on its own that also points to them being a bad place to put a bet in for a *black* *woman*.
One of them is no risk to not vote for whoever the eventual D nominee is, but the other is a moderate R who is currently planning on voting D because he hates Trump. I'm willing to bet there are a significant number of potential voters in that category, and writing them off risks them going back to R, voting a third party, or just sitting out the election.
Sure and that'll shake out. She needed to put him off guard from the beginning because that was and is her only shot. As I said, pissing off old white guys is a given for her so doing it early where the memory of it is more likely to fade away with time was probably the smart move. It was likely calculated as such.
One thing to keep in mind, however, is that this is the primary. It will naturally play to the left. Eventually someone will be the nominee, the other candidates will fall in line with their support (maybe grudgingly in Bernie's case), and the candidate will be able to take more centrist positions in the general to try to win back some of the fence-sitters.
Totally and that will be the time she would as a potential candidate would likely moderate her message and try to focus on winnable votes.

Edit: Just to be clear I'm not a Harris booster. I'm a Mayor Pete fan but I recognize he has a 0% chance because he has very, very long odds at winning the black vote.

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Zarathud » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:59 pm

The Democrats are disorganized to an extreme. Theses debates show it, if the Obama Presidency wasn’t enough.
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Fireball » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:03 pm

Defiant wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:35 pm
Fireball wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:18 pm
She's a center-left progressive not some sort of unhinged radical.
While I don't think she's some "unhinged radical", her voting record is almost the same as Warren's (also not an "unhinged radical"), so I wouldn't call her "center-left" at all.
Her voting record in the Senate is almost the same as Warren's, but so are most Democrats during the 3 years that Harris has been in office. The GOP hasn't been putting up a lot of nominees or legislation that offer any appeal to any but the most conservative Democrats in the Senate. If you look at her career, she's pretty center-left, with a slight lean towards the left — but that could be illusory given how much American politics has veered to the right in the last couple decades. The bills she's sponsoring check all the progressive boxes, but also a lot that check the more centrist boxes. Her career in CA was progressive but with some distinct centrist tendencies. As much as anyone running for the nomination, she's describable as "center-left".
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Fireball » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:04 pm

Zarathud wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:59 pm
The Democrats are disorganized to an extreme. Theses debates show it, if the Obama Presidency wasn’t enough.
The Democratic coalition is very heterogeneous. The base Republican coalition are all the same race, all the same religion, have all the same views on most salient issues. The Democratic coalition is none of these things, and never has been.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Fireball » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:05 pm

Daehawk wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:04 pm
You're not going to beat Trump with Warren. I feel that if the Dems dont go with Biden then we just shoot ourselves in the foot again and wait another 4 years.
Biden would lose. Warren very much could win. Harris probably would win. Anyone of the other majors could win. But I don't think Biden would have a prayer.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by ImLawBoy » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:26 pm

malchior wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:50 pm
ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:23 pm
malchior wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:49 am
hepcat wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:41 am
Oh, don't get me wrong. The clear winner in the "worst extremism" department can be found in the GOP. I'm just saying it also exists in the liberal spectrum. I think to deny that is to risk alienating people who feel like they don't have a home if they lean more centrist.
Yeah - I get that but I also feel like you have to frame the discussion right. Old white men getting turned off by progressive speech? I don't actually think it is a big factor since they are already on the crazy train in huge numbers. The Dems need to win over a bunch of the "middle" to be sure but a lot of data suggest the middle agrees with them. The problem is the mainstream Dems can't seem to communicate this consistently.
The italics and bold part is likely wrong and it's a dangerous attitude. I shared an anecdote in another thread about the two old white men I had lunch with the other day, and they were both very put off by Harris's attacks on Biden.
This is the difference between an anecdote and data. It is a little hard to parse out but white, males 55+ are more likely to be self-identified Conservatives and they approve of Trump in very high numbers (80+%). Is it all of them? No but they have a very strong affinity compared to other groups.
I'm surprised you think I don't know the difference between anecdote and data, since both times I used the example I made clear that I was using anecdotal evidence. Data is, of course, important, and I appreciate you providing it. It's pretty complex - is your data showing that 80+% of the self-identified Conservatives approve of Trump, or that 80+% of white males 55+ approve of Trump? I'm guessing the former, but that's too much info for me to rummage through right now. Also, what are the figures on self-described Moderate white males 55+? Those are also potential cusp voters.
malchior wrote:That said it is true that "writing them off" is not the best course but they are the group you have to factor as being the worst investment in time and resources now (and eventually long-term as well).
They may be the worst investment, but given the low margins of victory in key states, it's still a group that would be helpful to win over or keep in the flock.
malchior wrote: Also I'll point out that why they were put off is a pretty complex equation on its own that also points to them being a bad place to put a bet in for a *black* *woman*.
It's a complex equation, but these guys are not idiots. They're self-aware, and they know that race and gender may have played a factor. I guess the question is whether Harris could have gotten her point across in a way that didn't risk alienating these types of voters? I don't know the answer. I'm hoping you're right about this being an early thing to get it out of the way if she does end up as the nominee. Plus, going after Trump in the same way is much less likely to have the same backlash as going after Biden that way.
malchior wrote:Edit: Just to be clear I'm not a Harris booster. I'm a Mayor Pete fan but I recognize he has a 0% chance because he has very, very long odds at winning the black vote.
I'm neither particularly for or against Harris, and I didn't have a problem with Harris's approach in the debate - I thought it was actually a strong moment, and I'd love to see Biden out of there. I went with Warren in this poll, but I'm still persuadable.
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by Fireball » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:55 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:38 pm
Fireball wrote:[

You are completely unmoored from reality. Biden deserved what he got. His comments were wrong, his defense of them was wrong, and he’s a lazy, shitty candidate. I prefer Warren to Harris, but nothing about that exchange should cause any reasonable person to have doubts about Harris.
I'm confused.
What's makes me unmootrd from reality. That I like a candidate a little less because she used a contrived and pre designed speech to sell merch, but not so much that she changed in my candidate rankings? Still # 2, for like the fourth time.
Or is it that dumpster fire isn't a negative enough description for Biden's campaign.
Or maybe that Warren despite her excessive folksiness has the policy experience without the seemingly naked ambition of Harris?

Apollo is being hyperbolic but he's not wrong about the perception of democrats eating their own over purity tests.

I clearly agree with Fireball on three out of three points and perceive the value of Harris's tactics slightly differently. And I'm an unmoored idiot not dog piling on the out of date old white guy.

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So, I read your comment about 10 minutes after waking up and before taking a shower. It seemed to me that you were drawing a straight line from Harris taking down Biden in a fair way to the sort of burn-it-all-down bullshit from Bernie and his gang in 2016. If I was mistaken, I apologize.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)

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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by em2nought » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:57 pm

Harris would get beat down with her family "owning slaves"
Warren would get beat down with her fake Indian heritage and her "I'd like to speak to the manager" hair cut. Never mind her fake beer drinking. LOL
Biden would get burned by that torch everyone wants him to pass which he apparently used prior at cross burnings. This despite him invoking "Obama" and his ties to him in every third sentence. :wink:
Democratic party is now too anti-Semite to go with Bernie so...

Maybe they should make sure Andrew Yang's mike is working next time. :mrgreen:
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Re: Flash poll: Debates edition, aftermath

Post by malchior » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:00 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:26 pm
I'm surprised you think I don't know the difference between anecdote and data, since both times I used the example I made clear that I was using anecdotal evidence. Data is, of course, important, and I appreciate you providing it. It's pretty complex - is your data showing that 80+% of the self-identified Conservatives approve of Trump, or that 80+% of white males 55+ approve of Trump? I'm guessing the former, but that's too much info for me to rummage through right now. Also, what are the figures on self-described Moderate white males 55+? Those are also potential cusp voters.
That wasn't implying you didn't understand that - just framing. As to your question - this survey doesn't have it broken out that way. That is to be expected though since they usually get there in the general. Using approval/disapproval is really just a proxy at the moment but the last election had this demo breaking for Trump pretty solidly more so than other demos. There is little reason to think that has changed...but we'll know more probably towards the end of the year.
malchior wrote:That said it is true that "writing them off" is not the best course but they are the group you have to factor as being the worst investment in time and resources now (and eventually long-term as well).
They may be the worst investment, but given the low margins of victory in key states, it's still a group that would be helpful to win over or keep in the flock.
I think you're focusing on the wrong game here. She has to win the nomination first. For obvious reasons, she has to take bigger risks because she faces bigger headwinds. All indicators point to this being fundamental to her strategy and it makes sense when you reverse engineer it against her path to the nomination.
malchior wrote: Also I'll point out that why they were put off is a pretty complex equation on its own that also points to them being a bad place to put a bet in for a *black* *woman*.
It's a complex equation, but these guys are not idiots. They're self-aware, and they know that race and gender may have played a factor. I guess the question is whether Harris could have gotten her point across in a way that didn't risk alienating these types of voters? I don't know the answer. I'm hoping you're right about this being an early thing to get it out of the way if she does end up as the nominee. Plus, going after Trump in the same way is much less likely to have the same backlash as going after Biden that way.
Could she have done it softer? Maybe but you have to figure if they spent months working on this line that it was pretty well shook out on their end. They did the long math on this and saw a positive balance on the trade offs. For example, to my eyes it showed she was willing to fight which is desperately needed in a D candidate right now. They likely baked in turning off males and especially white males. Plus, just prior to the debate Biden was talking about healing wounds with the Republicans which...sounded...completely naive. That weak position may have been a factor that cemented this as a debate strategy for Harris' team. I'm sure Biden was trying to look like a statesman but it just comes across as out of touch with the mood of his electorate. It didn't hurt that it "rhymed" with his position on the segregationists.

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