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Legalizing Prostitution

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Legalizing Prostitution

Post by coopasonic » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:16 pm

Discuss.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:18 pm

Should be done. Mostly same reasons for legalizing weed.



Safer "product"/regulation
Less associated crime
Tax revenue
Gonna happen anyway
Takes money from criminals and makes trafficking less lucrative
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by NickAragua » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:23 pm

blah blah blah religious counter-argument

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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by coopasonic » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:26 pm

Quoted from the 2020 thread:
LordMortis wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:46 am
Paingod wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:24 am
Her biggest concern is that women are being used
That's precisely what one would hope to mitigate against by regulating transactions among consenting adults. Or more specifically women and minors being abused.
and more husbands will cheat on their wives when it's legal to visit prostitutes.
That I can't help with, other than legal records. Much like the other side, I have no evidence but doubt the needle would move on this. To my mind, cheaters will see the legal documents as more of problem than they do the existing paperworkless channels. Cheaters gonna cheat and people who are attracted to cheater and gonna be attracted to cheaters. Fallout sucks. I don't see legal and regulated prostitution moving that needle.
She cited the legalization of marijuana and the increase of its use as proof,
I don't doubt for a second that prostitution increase would happen and immediately so. Even in this age of social media, we are a repressed society. However, allegorically, I don't see increase of abused pot dealers or an increase of people smoking dope in secrecy to keep it from their loved ones. Admittedly, I'm not looking for these phenomena.
when pay-for-sex is legal, more men will cheat.
Again in my mind, I don't see the change. I *do* see more men devaluing their relationships with women (and vice versa but in our misogynistic society, the power is on men devaluing women. See metoo Harvey Weinstein Epstein etc...). I *do* see an increase in financial ruin by those seeking prostitutes to fulfill their urges. It sucks. Seek help. Like you would gambling or drinking or pot or video games or eating away your emotions and all the other self destructive impulses or compulsions we are prone to.
I can't 100% parse what Mortis is saying here, but I wanted to respond to the idea that legal prostitution will lead to more marital infidelity. If it becomes legal and you partake of the services against the wishes of your significant other, the legal services are not to blame. Your relationship already had problems and this opportunity just brought it to the surface. Please don't vote for Trump over this! Paingod, feel free to let your wife know I said as much. ;)
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by coopasonic » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:29 pm

NickAragua wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:23 pm
blah blah blah religious counter-argument
but God knocked up Joseph's wife...
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by NickAragua » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:43 pm

coopasonic wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:29 pm
NickAragua wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:23 pm
blah blah blah religious counter-argument
but God knocked up Joseph's wife...
Didn't say it was a coherent counter-argument.

I'm going to guess that whenever a married woman starts up about the immorality of legalized prostitution, the main concern is that her husband is going to suddenly go out and seek the newly available services. Either that or decades of indoctrination about how prostitution is evil or whatever.

Well, I suppose it's a legitimate concern if the husband has any sex drive left after having X kids and being bitched at non stop for Y years.

Me, I just want to play video games in peace and quiet without having to go to a twitter re-education camp. And possibly for my daughters not to have to kill people for canned beans after civilization collapses. Legalized prostitution and the theoretical marital infidelity that results from it is a price I'm willing to pay for those things.

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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Smoove_B » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:07 pm

Ok, I'll be the first to quote him:
George Carlin wrote:I don't understand why prostitution is illegal. Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal? You know, why should it be illegal to sell something that's perfectly legal to give away? I can't follow the logic on that one at all! Of all the things you can do, giving someone an orgasm is hardly the worst thing in the world. In the army they give you a medal for spraying napalm on people! In civilian life you go to jail for giving someone an orgasm! Maybe I'm not supposed to understand it...
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Paingod » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:24 pm

coopasonic wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:26 pm
Please don't vote for Trump over this! Paingod, feel free to let your wife know I said as much. ;)
I may not mention you by name, but when we discuss this again (and I'm sure we will) I'll bring it up.

My two cents is along the lines of two consenting adults being allowed to do whatever they want as long as no one is getting hurt. I do believe regulation can help keep the workers cleaner and it may help stem some of the sex trafficking we have, but I'm doubtful it would achieve a perfect cleanup.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Smoove_B » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:37 pm

Perfect is the enemy of good. I cannot get my mind around someone voting for Trump over the suggestion of regulated (legal) prostitution, sorry.

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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:40 pm

coopasonic wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:26 pm

I can't 100% parse what Mortis is saying here, but I wanted to respond to the idea that legal prostitution will lead to more marital infidelity. If it becomes legal and you partake of the services against the wishes of your significant other, the legal services are not to blame.
It's legal to have consenting sex with someone you meet in a bar (or coffee shop or grocery store or ice fishing junket in Medina Minnesota). I don't think legalized l infidelity is the concern exactly.

It's that no-strings sex will be easier. It's that husbands will be able to pay to punch way above their weight, so to speak. I get some of that but again, it still comes down to a fundamental issue in the relationship. May be an issue that would never be tested without legal prostitution but still an issue.

Won't say there are no casualties to legal prostitution but again, same as weed. Prohibition has more casualties.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by coopasonic » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:45 pm

It is hard to have an argument when we are all on the same side.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:49 pm

coopasonic wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:45 pm
It is hard to have an argument when we are all on the same side.
No it isn't.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by hepcat » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:53 pm

Fine.

You legalize prostitution and you ruin the pimp business. Without the pimp business, Cinemax and HBO lose about half their late night, adult programming. Without the pimp business, the annual Player's Ball in whatever city the dart randomly hits on a map goes kaput (although I suspect Ice-T would still show up), and that place loses out on 48 dollars in tourism.

You gonna give some random city back that 48 bucks? Huh?
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Alefroth » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:59 pm

What next, legalizing sex with animals?

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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:00 pm

Baa means no!
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by stessier » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:03 pm

I'm pretty sure Remus has an argument against this. We had a discussing at the time when Kraft was thought to be caught as part of a trafficking sting (spoiler: there was no trafficking going on).
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by hepcat » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:07 pm

If his argument is that sex trafficking is bad, I think I'm going to be on his side.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by stessier » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:10 pm

hepcat wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:07 pm
If his argument is that sex trafficking is bad, I think I'm going to be on his side.
Well, yeah, but I think there was a bit more nuance.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:20 pm

stessier wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:03 pm
I'm pretty sure Remus has an argument against this. We had a discussing at the time when Kraft was thought to be caught as part of a trafficking sting (spoiler: there was no trafficking going on).
There was trafficking, it was just that Kraft wasn't involved in it or charged with it.

NY Times

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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by stessier » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:27 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:20 pm
stessier wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:03 pm
I'm pretty sure Remus has an argument against this. We had a discussing at the time when Kraft was thought to be caught as part of a trafficking sting (spoiler: there was no trafficking going on).
There was trafficking, it was just that Kraft wasn't involved in it or charged with it.

NY Times

Palm Beach Post
Well, the prosecutors themselves said there was none- not just when Kraft was around (after the Palm Beach report). Your Times article does not indicate there was any trafficking - it says that none of the 22 men were charged with it, not just Kraft.
When New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft was charged with soliciting a woman in connection with prostitution, it was widely reported that he had been busted as part of an anti-sex trafficking investigation into a string of massage parlors in Florida. On Friday, however, prosecutors walked back on this claim, confirming during a court hearing that there was no evidence that any sex trafficking took place at the Orchids of Asia spa in Jupiter, Florida, one of the massage parlors that was targeted in the bust.

...

Assistant State Attorney Greg Kridos disputed this claim, arguing that the spa had “all the appearances” of trafficking, and that there was enough evidence to suggest that requesting the warrant was justified. He did, however, acknowledge that there was not enough evidence to suggest that the women working at the spa were doing so against their will. “No one is being charged with human trafficking. There is no human trafficking that arises out of this investigation,” he said.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:29 pm

Martin County Sheriff William Snyder said his investigators — who have cases stemming from four day spas, two in Hobe Sound and two in Stuart — have a “strong circumstantial case” for human-trafficking charges.

Referring to that evidence, Snyder said “it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,” but he admits that uncertainty on whether victims will stick around to testify against their abusers keeps prosecutors from filing trafficking charges.

“I can call it a duck,” Snyder said. “I just can’t prove it’s a duck in court.”

Successful prosecutions of human-trafficking cases depend on victims testifying against their abusers, law-enforcement officials say. In cases where adults are victims, prosecutors must prove they were coerced into an illegal act. Without the victim willing to testify in court, convictions are harder to achieve. Anyone convicted of trafficking an adult can be sentenced to 30 years in prison. Trafficking a child can result in a life sentence.

Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernandez Rundle oversaw the opening of a human-trafficking unit in 2012 that has investigated about 500 cases covering more than 600 victims. In cases involving so-called massage parlors, Fernandez Rundle said “the victims and the management tend to stick together,” potentially keeping prosecutors from pursuing traffickers.

“You’re usually dealing with very few people who know about what’s going on — sometimes just the victim and the perpetrator,” Fernandez Rundle said.

A raid of four Martin County day spas resulted in the arrest of three women. Snyder said the women are in police custody, but are being treated as victims in the hopes they will help investigators.

One of the women told detectives she had already been warned her relatives in China would be harmed if she worked with police. The other women are also Chinese nationals with a history of being trafficked and their cooperation is “tenuous,” Snyder said.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by stessier » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:32 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:29 pm
Martin County Sheriff William Snyder said his investigators — who have cases stemming from four day spas, two in Hobe Sound and two in Stuart — have a “strong circumstantial case” for human-trafficking charges.

Referring to that evidence, Snyder said “it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,” but he admits that uncertainty on whether victims will stick around to testify against their abusers keeps prosecutors from filing trafficking charges.

“I can call it a duck,” Snyder said. “I just can’t prove it’s a duck in court.”

Successful prosecutions of human-trafficking cases depend on victims testifying against their abusers, law-enforcement officials say. In cases where adults are victims, prosecutors must prove they were coerced into an illegal act. Without the victim willing to testify in court, convictions are harder to achieve. Anyone convicted of trafficking an adult can be sentenced to 30 years in prison. Trafficking a child can result in a life sentence.

Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernandez Rundle oversaw the opening of a human-trafficking unit in 2012 that has investigated about 500 cases covering more than 600 victims. In cases involving so-called massage parlors, Fernandez Rundle said “the victims and the management tend to stick together,” potentially keeping prosecutors from pursuing traffickers.

“You’re usually dealing with very few people who know about what’s going on — sometimes just the victim and the perpetrator,” Fernandez Rundle said.

A raid of four Martin County day spas resulted in the arrest of three women. Snyder said the women are in police custody, but are being treated as victims in the hopes they will help investigators.

One of the women told detectives she had already been warned her relatives in China would be harmed if she worked with police. The other women are also Chinese nationals with a history of being trafficked and their cooperation is “tenuous,” Snyder said.
Where is that from? It's not either of the articles you linked. And to answer that, I have this from the Rolling Stones article-
It is not uncommon for law enforcement officials to used claims of sex trafficking as an excuse to target and harass sex workers in sting operations, regardless of whether workers are there consensually or not. “I am not at all surprised that they haven’t found any evidence of trafficking in the Kraft case,” Jessie Sage, a sex columnist for the Pittsburgh City Paper and an organizer with the advocacy group SWOP Pittsburgh, told Rolling Stone. “In our current political climate, trafficking rhetoric is used as a shortcut to incite moral panic about the buying and selling of sex.” Sage believes that this is due to our culture conflating sex work with sex trafficking: “Historically, feminist rhetoric suggests that women and femmes would never consent to sex work…and therefore are all trafficked still influences cultural attitudes toward sex work,” even when this is not the case.

In the case of the Florida massage parlor investigation, police were apparently struggling to get the women they busted to identify themselves as sex trafficking victims, with Martin County Sheriff William Snyder telling CNN that they repeatedly asked the women why they would “go and allow themselves to be trafficked,” to no avail. “They had the ability, they could’ve walked out into the street and asked for help,” he said. “But they didn’t.” Instead of taking this as a sign that these women were willingly engaging in this work, police continue to seek ways to “explain away this evidence,” Reason’s Elizabeth Nolan Brown wrote at the time.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:39 pm

stessier wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:32 pm
Where is that from? It's not either of the articles you linked. And to answer that, I have this from the Rolling Stones article-
It's from the Palm Beach Post article.
stessier wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:32 pm
In the case of the Florida massage parlor investigation, police were apparently struggling to get the women they busted to identify themselves as sex trafficking victims, with Martin County Sheriff William Snyder telling CNN that they repeatedly asked the women why they would “go and allow themselves to be trafficked,” to no avail. “They had the ability, they could’ve walked out into the street and asked for help,” he said. “But they didn’t.” Instead of taking this as a sign that these women were willingly engaging in this work, police continue to seek ways to “explain away this evidence,” Reason’s Elizabeth Nolan Brown wrote at the time.
And this is the same bullshit as asking why women that are abused don't leave their abusers. Human psychology is a dark and full of terrors. If you can find an expert that has better credentials than theater, nutrition, and strategic communication to discuss why trafficked women might stay with their captors, I'll be more than willing to take it under advisement.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by LordMortis » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:45 pm

stessier wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:32 pm
Isgrimnur wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:29 pm
Martin County Sheriff William Snyder said his investigators — who have cases stemming from four day spas, two in Hobe Sound and two in Stuart — have a “strong circumstantial case” for human-trafficking charges.

Referring to that evidence, Snyder said “it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,” but he admits that uncertainty on whether victims will stick around to testify against their abusers keeps prosecutors from filing trafficking charges.

“I can call it a duck,” Snyder said. “I just can’t prove it’s a duck in court.”

Successful prosecutions of human-trafficking cases depend on victims testifying against their abusers, law-enforcement officials say. In cases where adults are victims, prosecutors must prove they were coerced into an illegal act. Without the victim willing to testify in court, convictions are harder to achieve. Anyone convicted of trafficking an adult can be sentenced to 30 years in prison. Trafficking a child can result in a life sentence.

Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernandez Rundle oversaw the opening of a human-trafficking unit in 2012 that has investigated about 500 cases covering more than 600 victims. In cases involving so-called massage parlors, Fernandez Rundle said “the victims and the management tend to stick together,” potentially keeping prosecutors from pursuing traffickers.

“You’re usually dealing with very few people who know about what’s going on — sometimes just the victim and the perpetrator,” Fernandez Rundle said.

A raid of four Martin County day spas resulted in the arrest of three women. Snyder said the women are in police custody, but are being treated as victims in the hopes they will help investigators.

One of the women told detectives she had already been warned her relatives in China would be harmed if she worked with police. The other women are also Chinese nationals with a history of being trafficked and their cooperation is “tenuous,” Snyder said.
Where is that from? It's not either of the articles you linked. And to answer that, I have this from the Rolling Stones article-
Crazy. That was the first thing I read and then I had to go digging to figure how you lept from that to "there was none." I didn't get where you were coming from at all until I got to the Rolling Stone link talking with the prosecutor. Then I had to force myself in to the "innocent until proven guilty mode" where "not enough evidence" could be cop speak for "none".

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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by noxiousdog » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:06 pm

The argument against prostitution is that there will be a large portion of the workforce doing it against their will and that it is unhealthy both physically and psychologically.

I'm sympathetic to the argument, but feel that in a regulated environment the risks are lessened.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by UsulofDoom » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:50 pm

John Stossel has a report on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z23yQFx6MJ0
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Holman » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:03 pm

The illegality of prostitution is based on stigmatization of sex itself. I think we'd all agree that we now (happily) live in an era where sex is celebrated. It only makes sense for the laws to catch up.

Some will argue that sex workers are a threat to monogamy, but that's easy to refute. Those who value monogamy will stay monogamous. Those who don't (even if they claim they do) won't. They never have.

(It's estimated that in Victorian London, when social sexual repression was at its apex, fully one-third of unmarried adult single women were prostitutes.)

All this amounts to the basic truth that sex work happens whether you prefer it or not. The only question is whether sex workers will be afforded social protection or treated as pariahs and easy victims.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by hepcat » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:08 pm

Holman wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:03 pm
I think we'd all agree that we now (happily) live in an era where sex is celebrated. It only makes sense for the laws to catch up.
What country do you live in? I want to live there.

It's either celebrated for the wrong reasons (the sexualization of children in Hollywood, for example), or it's forced into the dark by puritanical zealots like the Pence's of the world (the evangelicals who hold more power right now than we'd like to admit).

Now if we're talking about periods in time? Well, I'd argue there have been points in time that were just as much, if not more, sexually free (limited by regions, of course...there's always going to be a bible belt, no matter where you go).

I wish I could agree with you, but I can't. :cry:
Last edited by hepcat on Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Daehawk » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:11 pm

Id never partake but Im all for legalizing it and keeping it inspected.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Smoove_B » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:16 pm

Daehawk wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:11 pm
Id never partake but Im all for legalizing it and keeping it inspected.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by hepcat » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:17 pm

Every chance you get, you HAVE to bring up your past as male stripper "Doctor Sexy", don't you ? Yes, we know it paid for your college, but I highly doubt you're bragging about THAT aspect of it! :x
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Smoove_B » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:19 pm

:lol:

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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Holman » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:25 pm

hepcat wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:08 pm
Holman wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:03 pm
I think we'd all agree that we now (happily) live in an era where sex is celebrated. It only makes sense for the laws to catch up.
What country do you live in? I want to live there.

It's either celebrated for the wrong reasons (the sexualization of children in Hollywood, for example), or it's forced into the dark by puritanical zealots like the Pence's of the world (the evangelicals who hold more power right now than we'd like to admit).

Now if we're talking about periods in time? Well, I'd argue there have been points in time that were just as much, if not more, sexually free (limited by regions, of course...there's always going to be a bible belt, no matter where you go).

I wish I could agree with you, but I can't. :cry:
Sociological question: Can you think of anyone who would actually be punished in any way for their sexual activity if it were agreed upon by both (adult) participants and hurt no others?

Of course we hate adultery, but we hate it for the betrayal, not for the sex itself.

Is there any 21st-century scenario in which two mature partners could actually be condemned for sleeping together if it didn't involve a betrayal of some third/fourth-party's trust?
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by hepcat » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:27 pm

Pre marital sex is still condemned by the Christian Right (well, most of Christianity). Both then AND now. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Holman » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:49 pm

hepcat wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:27 pm
Pre marital sex is still condemned by the Christian Right (well, most of Christianity). Both then AND now. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
That's why they stood up and totally rejected Trump. They wanted to make their moral commitments clear.

[My point is that (A) the world has moved ahead and (B) even right-wing Christian conservatives don't give a shit so long as the candidate hates nonwhite nonchristians.]
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by em2nought » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:51 pm

Prostitution is better overseas. You're probably not handing money to someone who will buy bad drugs, and accidentally kill themselves via the money you gave them. :think:
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Holman » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:53 pm

em2nought wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:51 pm
Prostitution is better overseas. You're probably not handing money to someone who will buy bad drugs, and accidentally kill themselves via the money you gave them. :think:
And you can ignore the exploitation, right?
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by em2nought » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:00 pm

Holman wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:53 pm
em2nought wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:51 pm
Prostitution is better overseas. You're probably not handing money to someone who will buy bad drugs, and accidentally kill themselves via the money you gave them. :think:
And you can ignore the exploitation, right?
So if I pay for services to someone who makes $3000 US a year it's exploitation, but if I give it to someone earning $30,000 it's not?
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by hepcat » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:24 am

Holman wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:49 pm
hepcat wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:27 pm
Pre marital sex is still condemned by the Christian Right (well, most of Christianity). Both then AND now. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
That's why they stood up and totally rejected Trump. They wanted to make their moral commitments clear.

[My point is that (A) the world has moved ahead and (B) even right-wing Christian conservatives don't give a shit so long as the candidate hates nonwhite nonchristians.]
They voted for Trump and they still give a huge shit. It's called hypocrisy.

Another scenario: what do you think they call a woman who sleeps with a lot of men for fun? One hint: they're usually not good monikers. Now think of the names they use for men who do the same thing. There's a bit of a disparity there, methinks.

We don't live in an age where sex is celebrated. We still have quite a ways to go. We wouldn't even have this thread if we did.
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Re: Legalizing Prostitution

Post by Holman » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:21 am

hepcat wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:24 am
Holman wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:49 pm
hepcat wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:27 pm
Pre marital sex is still condemned by the Christian Right (well, most of Christianity). Both then AND now. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
That's why they stood up and totally rejected Trump. They wanted to make their moral commitments clear.

[My point is that (A) the world has moved ahead and (B) even right-wing Christian conservatives don't give a shit so long as the candidate hates nonwhite nonchristians.]
They voted for Trump and they still give a huge shit. It's called hypocrisy.

Another scenario: what do you think they call a woman who sleeps with a lot of men for fun? One hint: they're usually not good monikers. Now think of the names they use for men who do the same thing. There's a bit of a disparity there, methinks.

We don't live in an age where sex is celebrated. We still have quite a ways to go. We wouldn't even have this thread if we did.
Agree that there is still shaming and pretension from certain quarters.

OTOH, sex is so completely expected in relationships that you don't even raise an eyebrow when someone changes partners. When you meet a dating couple, you simply assume they've done it, right?

If you had an unmarried co-worker who casually mentioned that she had taken a trip to Paris with her boyfriend, would it even occur to bat an eye? Of course not. But a couple of generations ago it would have been a scandal, and a couple before that it would been a deeply shameful, life-wrecking secret. A whole lot has changed.

The social terrain around sex is still complex, but I think we've moved to the point where (again, outside of moralistic circles) sex itself is not stigmatized. When we condemn infidelity, for example, we're condemning the dishonesty, not the sex act.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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