That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons bring us some web forums whereupon we can gather
http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/
I can't 100% parse what Mortis is saying here, but I wanted to respond to the idea that legal prostitution will lead to more marital infidelity. If it becomes legal and you partake of the services against the wishes of your significant other, the legal services are not to blame. Your relationship already had problems and this opportunity just brought it to the surface. Please don't vote for Trump over this! Paingod, feel free to let your wife know I said as much.LordMortis wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:46 amThat's precisely what one would hope to mitigate against by regulating transactions among consenting adults. Or more specifically women and minors being abused.
That I can't help with, other than legal records. Much like the other side, I have no evidence but doubt the needle would move on this. To my mind, cheaters will see the legal documents as more of problem than they do the existing paperworkless channels. Cheaters gonna cheat and people who are attracted to cheater and gonna be attracted to cheaters. Fallout sucks. I don't see legal and regulated prostitution moving that needle.and more husbands will cheat on their wives when it's legal to visit prostitutes.
I don't doubt for a second that prostitution increase would happen and immediately so. Even in this age of social media, we are a repressed society. However, allegorically, I don't see increase of abused pot dealers or an increase of people smoking dope in secrecy to keep it from their loved ones. Admittedly, I'm not looking for these phenomena.She cited the legalization of marijuana and the increase of its use as proof,
Again in my mind, I don't see the change. I *do* see more men devaluing their relationships with women (and vice versa but in our misogynistic society, the power is on men devaluing women. See metoo Harvey Weinstein Epstein etc...). I *do* see an increase in financial ruin by those seeking prostitutes to fulfill their urges. It sucks. Seek help. Like you would gambling or drinking or pot or video games or eating away your emotions and all the other self destructive impulses or compulsions we are prone to.when pay-for-sex is legal, more men will cheat.
but God knocked up Joseph's wife...
Didn't say it was a coherent counter-argument.
RIPGeorge Carlin wrote:I don't understand why prostitution is illegal. Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal? You know, why should it be illegal to sell something that's perfectly legal to give away? I can't follow the logic on that one at all! Of all the things you can do, giving someone an orgasm is hardly the worst thing in the world. In the army they give you a medal for spraying napalm on people! In civilian life you go to jail for giving someone an orgasm! Maybe I'm not supposed to understand it...
I may not mention you by name, but when we discuss this again (and I'm sure we will) I'll bring it up.coopasonic wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:26 pmPlease don't vote for Trump over this! Paingod, feel free to let your wife know I said as much.
It's legal to have consenting sex with someone you meet in a bar (or coffee shop or grocery store or ice fishing junket in Medina Minnesota). I don't think legalized l infidelity is the concern exactly.coopasonic wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:26 pm
I can't 100% parse what Mortis is saying here, but I wanted to respond to the idea that legal prostitution will lead to more marital infidelity. If it becomes legal and you partake of the services against the wishes of your significant other, the legal services are not to blame.
No it isn't.coopasonic wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:45 pm It is hard to have an argument when we are all on the same side.
There was trafficking, it was just that Kraft wasn't involved in it or charged with it.
Well, the prosecutors themselves said there was none- not just when Kraft was around (after the Palm Beach report). Your Times article does not indicate there was any trafficking - it says that none of the 22 men were charged with it, not just Kraft.Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:20 pmThere was trafficking, it was just that Kraft wasn't involved in it or charged with it.
NY Times
Palm Beach Post
When New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft was charged with soliciting a woman in connection with prostitution, it was widely reported that he had been busted as part of an anti-sex trafficking investigation into a string of massage parlors in Florida. On Friday, however, prosecutors walked back on this claim, confirming during a court hearing that there was no evidence that any sex trafficking took place at the Orchids of Asia spa in Jupiter, Florida, one of the massage parlors that was targeted in the bust.
...
Assistant State Attorney Greg Kridos disputed this claim, arguing that the spa had “all the appearances” of trafficking, and that there was enough evidence to suggest that requesting the warrant was justified. He did, however, acknowledge that there was not enough evidence to suggest that the women working at the spa were doing so against their will. “No one is being charged with human trafficking. There is no human trafficking that arises out of this investigation,” he said.
Martin County Sheriff William Snyder said his investigators — who have cases stemming from four day spas, two in Hobe Sound and two in Stuart — have a “strong circumstantial case” for human-trafficking charges.
Referring to that evidence, Snyder said “it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,” but he admits that uncertainty on whether victims will stick around to testify against their abusers keeps prosecutors from filing trafficking charges.
“I can call it a duck,” Snyder said. “I just can’t prove it’s a duck in court.”
Successful prosecutions of human-trafficking cases depend on victims testifying against their abusers, law-enforcement officials say. In cases where adults are victims, prosecutors must prove they were coerced into an illegal act. Without the victim willing to testify in court, convictions are harder to achieve. Anyone convicted of trafficking an adult can be sentenced to 30 years in prison. Trafficking a child can result in a life sentence.
Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernandez Rundle oversaw the opening of a human-trafficking unit in 2012 that has investigated about 500 cases covering more than 600 victims. In cases involving so-called massage parlors, Fernandez Rundle said “the victims and the management tend to stick together,” potentially keeping prosecutors from pursuing traffickers.
“You’re usually dealing with very few people who know about what’s going on — sometimes just the victim and the perpetrator,” Fernandez Rundle said.
A raid of four Martin County day spas resulted in the arrest of three women. Snyder said the women are in police custody, but are being treated as victims in the hopes they will help investigators.
One of the women told detectives she had already been warned her relatives in China would be harmed if she worked with police. The other women are also Chinese nationals with a history of being trafficked and their cooperation is “tenuous,” Snyder said.
Where is that from? It's not either of the articles you linked. And to answer that, I have this from the Rolling Stones article-Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:29 pmMartin County Sheriff William Snyder said his investigators — who have cases stemming from four day spas, two in Hobe Sound and two in Stuart — have a “strong circumstantial case” for human-trafficking charges.
Referring to that evidence, Snyder said “it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,” but he admits that uncertainty on whether victims will stick around to testify against their abusers keeps prosecutors from filing trafficking charges.
“I can call it a duck,” Snyder said. “I just can’t prove it’s a duck in court.”
Successful prosecutions of human-trafficking cases depend on victims testifying against their abusers, law-enforcement officials say. In cases where adults are victims, prosecutors must prove they were coerced into an illegal act. Without the victim willing to testify in court, convictions are harder to achieve. Anyone convicted of trafficking an adult can be sentenced to 30 years in prison. Trafficking a child can result in a life sentence.
Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernandez Rundle oversaw the opening of a human-trafficking unit in 2012 that has investigated about 500 cases covering more than 600 victims. In cases involving so-called massage parlors, Fernandez Rundle said “the victims and the management tend to stick together,” potentially keeping prosecutors from pursuing traffickers.
“You’re usually dealing with very few people who know about what’s going on — sometimes just the victim and the perpetrator,” Fernandez Rundle said.
A raid of four Martin County day spas resulted in the arrest of three women. Snyder said the women are in police custody, but are being treated as victims in the hopes they will help investigators.
One of the women told detectives she had already been warned her relatives in China would be harmed if she worked with police. The other women are also Chinese nationals with a history of being trafficked and their cooperation is “tenuous,” Snyder said.
It is not uncommon for law enforcement officials to used claims of sex trafficking as an excuse to target and harass sex workers in sting operations, regardless of whether workers are there consensually or not. “I am not at all surprised that they haven’t found any evidence of trafficking in the Kraft case,” Jessie Sage, a sex columnist for the Pittsburgh City Paper and an organizer with the advocacy group SWOP Pittsburgh, told Rolling Stone. “In our current political climate, trafficking rhetoric is used as a shortcut to incite moral panic about the buying and selling of sex.” Sage believes that this is due to our culture conflating sex work with sex trafficking: “Historically, feminist rhetoric suggests that women and femmes would never consent to sex work…and therefore are all trafficked still influences cultural attitudes toward sex work,” even when this is not the case.
In the case of the Florida massage parlor investigation, police were apparently struggling to get the women they busted to identify themselves as sex trafficking victims, with Martin County Sheriff William Snyder telling CNN that they repeatedly asked the women why they would “go and allow themselves to be trafficked,” to no avail. “They had the ability, they could’ve walked out into the street and asked for help,” he said. “But they didn’t.” Instead of taking this as a sign that these women were willingly engaging in this work, police continue to seek ways to “explain away this evidence,” Reason’s Elizabeth Nolan Brown wrote at the time.
It's from the Palm Beach Post article.
And this is the same bullshit as asking why women that are abused don't leave their abusers. Human psychology is a dark and full of terrors. If you can find an expert that has better credentials than theater, nutrition, and strategic communication to discuss why trafficked women might stay with their captors, I'll be more than willing to take it under advisement.stessier wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:32 pm In the case of the Florida massage parlor investigation, police were apparently struggling to get the women they busted to identify themselves as sex trafficking victims, with Martin County Sheriff William Snyder telling CNN that they repeatedly asked the women why they would “go and allow themselves to be trafficked,” to no avail. “They had the ability, they could’ve walked out into the street and asked for help,” he said. “But they didn’t.” Instead of taking this as a sign that these women were willingly engaging in this work, police continue to seek ways to “explain away this evidence,” Reason’s Elizabeth Nolan Brown wrote at the time.
Crazy. That was the first thing I read and then I had to go digging to figure how you lept from that to "there was none." I didn't get where you were coming from at all until I got to the Rolling Stone link talking with the prosecutor. Then I had to force myself in to the "innocent until proven guilty mode" where "not enough evidence" could be cop speak for "none".stessier wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:32 pmWhere is that from? It's not either of the articles you linked. And to answer that, I have this from the Rolling Stones article-Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:29 pmMartin County Sheriff William Snyder said his investigators — who have cases stemming from four day spas, two in Hobe Sound and two in Stuart — have a “strong circumstantial case” for human-trafficking charges.
Referring to that evidence, Snyder said “it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,” but he admits that uncertainty on whether victims will stick around to testify against their abusers keeps prosecutors from filing trafficking charges.
“I can call it a duck,” Snyder said. “I just can’t prove it’s a duck in court.”
Successful prosecutions of human-trafficking cases depend on victims testifying against their abusers, law-enforcement officials say. In cases where adults are victims, prosecutors must prove they were coerced into an illegal act. Without the victim willing to testify in court, convictions are harder to achieve. Anyone convicted of trafficking an adult can be sentenced to 30 years in prison. Trafficking a child can result in a life sentence.
Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernandez Rundle oversaw the opening of a human-trafficking unit in 2012 that has investigated about 500 cases covering more than 600 victims. In cases involving so-called massage parlors, Fernandez Rundle said “the victims and the management tend to stick together,” potentially keeping prosecutors from pursuing traffickers.
“You’re usually dealing with very few people who know about what’s going on — sometimes just the victim and the perpetrator,” Fernandez Rundle said.
A raid of four Martin County day spas resulted in the arrest of three women. Snyder said the women are in police custody, but are being treated as victims in the hopes they will help investigators.
One of the women told detectives she had already been warned her relatives in China would be harmed if she worked with police. The other women are also Chinese nationals with a history of being trafficked and their cooperation is “tenuous,” Snyder said.
What country do you live in? I want to live there.
As someone that has walked into a strip club with a clipboard and a stack of stem thermometers, all I can say is, "I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."
Sociological question: Can you think of anyone who would actually be punished in any way for their sexual activity if it were agreed upon by both (adult) participants and hurt no others?hepcat wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:08 pmWhat country do you live in? I want to live there.
It's either celebrated for the wrong reasons (the sexualization of children in Hollywood, for example), or it's forced into the dark by puritanical zealots like the Pence's of the world (the evangelicals who hold more power right now than we'd like to admit).
Now if we're talking about periods in time? Well, I'd argue there have been points in time that were just as much, if not more, sexually free (limited by regions, of course...there's always going to be a bible belt, no matter where you go).
I wish I could agree with you, but I can't.
That's why they stood up and totally rejected Trump. They wanted to make their moral commitments clear.
So if I pay for services to someone who makes $3000 US a year it's exploitation, but if I give it to someone earning $30,000 it's not?
They voted for Trump and they still give a huge shit. It's called hypocrisy.Holman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:49 pmThat's why they stood up and totally rejected Trump. They wanted to make their moral commitments clear.
[My point is that (A) the world has moved ahead and (B) even right-wing Christian conservatives don't give a shit so long as the candidate hates nonwhite nonchristians.]
Agree that there is still shaming and pretension from certain quarters.hepcat wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:24 amThey voted for Trump and they still give a huge shit. It's called hypocrisy.Holman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:49 pmThat's why they stood up and totally rejected Trump. They wanted to make their moral commitments clear.
[My point is that (A) the world has moved ahead and (B) even right-wing Christian conservatives don't give a shit so long as the candidate hates nonwhite nonchristians.]
Another scenario: what do you think they call a woman who sleeps with a lot of men for fun? One hint: they're usually not good monikers. Now think of the names they use for men who do the same thing. There's a bit of a disparity there, methinks.
We don't live in an age where sex is celebrated. We still have quite a ways to go. We wouldn't even have this thread if we did.