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The Trump Impeachment Thread

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Skinypupy
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Skinypupy »

This is fine.



Tl:DR - DOD sent a letter in January confirming no retaliation would be taken against Vindman.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Kraken »

raydude wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:08 pm
gameoverman wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:56 pm
malchior wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:42 pmMany people were deluded about the state of things. Now they know how close we are to the edge.
This is the core disagreement I have with you and a lot of people regarding Trump. My opinion is that everyone knew about him being the way he is before he was elected. Remember all the people, and I was one of those dummies too, who said things like "You can't vote for Trump, he's not qualified"? Everyone who votes knew what his victory would mean.

People did in fact vote for him, lots of people did. They did so because they knew what he was about and that's how he won them over. He is their guy, he's doing and saying what they thought he would.

Are there people in this country who were clueless about him until now? Sure. But those people don't vote. They don't care about politics. That's why this impeachment thing is informative to those people, they don't care about politics enough to pay attention to things like campaigns. This is also why, once again in my opinion, this won't affect the election and thus wasn't worth pursuing, these people will not vote in the upcoming election.

There have been so many previous reasons to get politically fired up before this Ukraine scandal and apparently these swing voters weren't swayed, but I'm supposed to believe THIS is the thing that turns people against Trump? Come on. People are cynical these days. Telling them someone cheated in an election, or even tried to steal the election, is going to get a shrug and "What else is new?" for a response. It wasn't new when Nixon did it and it took the 'smoking gun' of audio recordings to get him out.
Actually I will confess I didn't realize how much of a shitstain he would be. I figured he would be an idiot, but I didn't realize he would be a stubborn idiot. I figured he would hire good advisors, but I didn't realize he wouldn't listen to them and actually do the exact opposite of what they wanted. Then fire them and replace them with idiots on the same level as him.

I knew he was stupid, but I didn't realize he was so stupid that people had to distill briefings down to cartoons. I knew he didn't admit to mistakes but I didn't realize he would be so stupid and unwilling to admit mistakes that he would use a sharpie to "prove" a hurricane was headed for Alabama.

But most of all, I knew he was an idiot. I didn't realize he'd be a useful idiot for Putin.
The thing that caught me by surprise is the GOP's collapse. I figured they'd surround Trump with adults who'd do the actual governing, leaving him to loot and pillage in the background and strut around acting important for the cameras -- and it looked like it was going that way, for the first year. Remember the "he didn't want to win and he's miserable" story line? I had assumed that the real power was vested in the office, not the occupant, and that a rogue could be contained. Surprise! I still don't understand how he drove everyone with any integrity out or underground and consolidated his reign of terror, but it's just now hitting its peak.

Yes, he's a truly stupid man when it comes to knowledge and rational thought. He's surely narcissistic and delusional. But he must have a rare dark genius for deceiving, manipulating, and intimidating people. IDK how else to explain why he's on top of the world.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by raydude »

Honestly what I don't get is that these supposedly smart people in his cabinet, in the beginning, didn't realize that the way to treat a bully is to not give in. Seriously, if at least one of them was the source behind that newspaper article saying the adults in the room were trying to restrain him, then why quit? Why not stay and rein him in? Or at least, after the Comey firing, why not keep copious notes and then threaten to expose him if he decided to ask for their resignation?

Or even better - why not force him to explicitly fire them? From what people have said, he doesn't like to fire anyone - so if you threaten to stay in you expose his cowardice when he doesn't fire you. From what I've seen, at that high a level of power, it's not like anyone can't bounce back from being fired. It's not like any of them would be panhandling on the street after being fired. So why not force him? I don't get the thinking behind their actions.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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I had no inkling that someone this corrupt and blatantly twisted would not only not be checked by his party, but would be actively supported by them. I figured that as soon as the idiocy started his party would 'put him in his place' and work around him. Instead they embraced his corruption, lies, and evil.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

Kraken wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:23 pmThe thing that caught me by surprise is the GOP's collapse. I figured they'd surround Trump with adults who'd do the actual governing, leaving him to loot and pillage in the background and strut around acting important for the cameras -- and it looked like it was going that way, for the first year. Remember the "he didn't want to win and he's miserable" story line? I had assumed that the real power was vested in the office, not the occupant, and that a rogue could be contained. Surprise! I still don't understand how he drove everyone with any integrity out or underground and consolidated his reign of terror, but it's just now hitting its peak.
The true frightening power of the office is that there is a strong cadre of GOP thought leaders who think anything that falls out of the President's mouth is the law. In the context of Nixon and folks over the years like Yoo, Gonzales, and Barr this outcome wasn't unpredictable. And I'm sure people have told him this directly which has only poured more gasoline on the fire.
Yes, he's a truly stupid man when it comes to knowledge and rational thought. He's surely narcissistic and delusional. But he must have a rare dark genius for deceiving, manipulating, and intimidating people. IDK how else to explain why he's on top of the world.
There is more and more evidence he truly doesn't possess any gifts. His power is in the fact that he had for decades been something of a media curiosity and tv personality. His brand then was that he'd say pretty edgy stuff that no one else would say because he was this broken, self-absorbed piece of shit...but he was rich and glitzy...and people either loved or hated him. He got a response like a heel at a WWE contest.

When he went full racist vis a vis the birther movement he got a response from the core that he built on. He connected with people who were aggrieved and that has been his brand since. If you are a bully and a simpleton but people respond to your yammering hate...well keep on doing it. When you listen to him speak, it doesn't take but a minute or two to realize he is a goddamn fucking moron. There is no dark, genius there. He is an impulsive, narcissistic mess. He is an unrestrained id with nuclear weapons. He is the President and when he bullies people are intimidated by it. You heard that said over and over by the witnesses at impeachment. The Senator's got all huffy when Schiff told them about 'heads on pikes' but its true. He can tweet out something and it literally is broadcast by the media to the world. It doesn't take genius to figure that out. He just did it, it worked, and he continued to do it.

The bottom line is that a good portion of the GOP base wanted a bully to come along and punish the libs. Others saw through him a proxy to get what they wanted (judges/low tax regime). This was the path the GOP was on already. He just doesn't have the political awareness to slow roll anything but it didn't end up mattering. What we found out is that the political class especially in the GOP are full of cowards, power hungry sycophants, and folks who turn out aren't all that strategic. They allowed themselves to be bullied into subservience. One bad decision after another until we are where we are which is on the cusp of a dictatorship.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Skinypupy »

malchior wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:30 am
Yes, he's a truly stupid man when it comes to knowledge and rational thought. He's surely narcissistic and delusional. But he must have a rare dark genius for deceiving, manipulating, and intimidating people. IDK how else to explain why he's on top of the world.
There is more and more evidence he truly doesn't possess any gifts. His power is in the fact that he had for decades been something of a media curiosity and tv personality. His brand then was that he'd say pretty edgy stuff that no one else would say because he was this broken, self-absorbed piece of shit...but he was rich and glitzy...and people either loved or hated him. He got a response like a heel at a WWE contest.

When he went full racist vis a vis the birther movement he got a response from the core that he built on. He connected with people who were aggrieved and that has been his brand since. If you are a bully and a simpleton but people respond to your yammering hate...well keep on doing it. When you listen to him speak, it doesn't take but a minute or two to realize he is a goddamn fucking moron. There is no dark, genius there. He is an impulsive, narcissistic mess. He is an unrestrained id with nuclear weapons. He is the President and when he bullies people are intimidated by it. You heard that said over and over by the witnesses at impeachment. The Senator's got all huffy when Schiff told them about 'heads on pikes' but its true. He can tweet out something and it literally is broadcast by the media to the world. It doesn't take genius to figure that out. He just did it, it worked, and he continued to do it.

The bottom line is that a good portion of the GOP base wanted a bully to come along and punish the libs. Others saw through him a proxy to get what they wanted (judges/low tax regime). This was the path the GOP was on already. He just doesn't have the political awareness to slow roll anything but it didn't end up mattering. What we found out is that the political class especially in the GOP are full of cowards, power hungry sycophants, and folks who turn out aren't all that strategic. They allowed themselves to be bullied into subservience. One bad decision after another until we are where we are which is on the cusp of a dictatorship.
Well said.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Skinypupy wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:06 pm This is fine.



Tl:DR - DOD sent a letter in January confirming no retaliation would be taken against Vindman.
I read it as a letter confirming that their safety isn't copomised and that they have been informed of their rights through standard mandatory corporate compliance-type training. I don't see any explicit guarantee of their jobs or non-retaliation.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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malchior wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:30 am
The bottom line is that a good portion of the GOP base wanted a bully to come along and punish the libs. Others saw through him a proxy to get what they wanted (judges/low tax regime). This was the path the GOP was on already. He just doesn't have the political awareness to slow roll anything but it didn't end up mattering. What we found out is that the political class especially in the GOP are full of cowards, power hungry sycophants, and folks who turn out aren't all that strategic. They allowed themselves to be bullied into subservience. One bad decision after another until we are where we are which is on the cusp of a dictatorship.
Yep.

In 2016 the GOP served up a menu of all possible Republication types: movement ideologue (Cruz), conservative technocrats (Bush, Rubio, Fiorina), social moderates (Kasich, Christie), libertarian (Paul), and religious crusaders (Santorum, Huckabee).

The party passed on them all and went with the white-supremacist demagogue.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by LordMortis »

Kraken wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:23 pm The thing that caught me by surprise is the GOP's collapse new coalescence.
I figured they'd surround Trump with adults who'd do the actual governing, leaving him to loot and pillage in the background and strut around acting important for the cameras -- and it looked like it was going that way, for the first year. Remember the "he didn't want to win and he's miserable" story line?
ayup.

I assumed the GOP would use him as weapon and they have but their deal with him and the freedom caucus has also pushed them fully into everything wrong mode. I saw him being destructive as all hell. I did not seem being the (successful?) means to retool the GOP to a successful party of billionaires and the bigot and zealot symbiotes. I did not see our nation as controllable by them.
Holman wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:42 am In 2016 the GOP served up a menu of all possible Republication types: movement ideologue (Cruz), conservative technocrats (Bush, Rubio, Fiorina), social moderates (Kasich, Christie), libertarian (Paul), and religious crusaders (Santorum, Huckabee).

The party passed on them all and went with the white-supremacist demagogue.
That I clearly saw, I just didn't see that the party was strong enough to thrive rallying around him.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

LordMortis wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:36 pmThat I clearly saw, I just didn't see that the party was strong enough to thrive rallying around him.
That is what happens when you suppress, gerrymander, and essentially pick your voters. You become accountable only to yourself and the power you wish to attain and keep.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

Some rare 'good news'. It appears the public may not have been fooled. Will that turn into votes in the right place to stop Trump?


Striking findings in new Quinnipiac poll:

By 55-40, voters say acquittal *did not* clear Trump of wrongdoing.

Among independents, that's 54-40 (!!)

Also, Trump's approval is 43%, and has not budged since mid-Dec. Mass hyping of Gallup poll was absurd.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni »

So 40% DO think it cleared him of wrongdoing and 43% approve of his presidency. I know a 43% approval rating is low but it's fucking Trump. 43% are OK with him.


As far as the election, remember 2016? Fuck polls.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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It's too early for polls.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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Isgrimnur wrote:It's too early for polls.
Goddammit.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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40% is essentially the deplorable base so that doesn't surprise. That 55% thought he wasn't exonerated is a bit of a shock but I'm sure it'll fade over time.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:26 pm It's too early for polls.
:lol:

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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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malchior wrote:40% is essentially the deplorable base so that doesn't surprise. That 55% thought he wasn't exonerated is a bit of a shock but I'm sure it'll fade over time.
I’m seeing more and more people I know post on Facebook about how they like Trump as president. My mom did that the other day, and it tore me up inside.

I need this nightmare to be over.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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I’m learning something as I watch this unfold. I think most Trump supporters (not the rally nuts) are not racists. For example, they wouldn’t call a minority the n-word or might get upset if they saw a minority mistreated by the police. However, they are fine with the racist policies and race baiting of the Republican Party because they believe the false tropes (welfare queens, all minorities live in inner city war zones). This allows them to consider themselves not racist but still support Trump’s overt racism because he just confirming what they already believe.

They are racists in denial and the Republican Party is happy to use their biases to gain power.

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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni »

malchior wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:16 pm 40% is essentially the deplorable base so that doesn't surprise. That 55% thought he wasn't exonerated is a bit of a shock but I'm sure it'll fade over time.
Not surprising at all. Don't need exoneration if there is no crime.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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Scoop20906 wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:16 am America is a severely racist country. That’s a fact.
No severely racist country elects a minority president.

I think most people are single issue voters. 2nd Amendment; abortion; single payer healthcare; wealth inequality.

As long as their party believes in protecting their issue, that's how they are going to vote regardless of any other issue. That means siding with some unsavory people.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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noxiousdog wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:39 amI think most people are single issue voters. 2nd Amendment; abortion; single payer healthcare; wealth inequality.

As long as their party believes in protecting their issue, that's how they are going to vote regardless of any other issue. That means siding with some unsavory people.
+1 on that. I can't imagine, though, being so absolutely driven by a single idea that I'd be willing to overlook anything else in order to get it.

My big issue is global warming. If you told me there was a candidate out there who was absolutely dedicated to it, but that person killed kittens on the weekends for fun, I'd ask who the second best choice was.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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noxiousdog wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:39 am I think most people are single issue voters. 2nd Amendment; abortion; single payer healthcare; wealth inequality.

As long as their party believes in protecting their issue, that's how they are going to vote regardless of any other issue. That means siding with some unsavory people.
Yup. I hear so many "I don't like Trump, but..." followed by single issue justifications that sweep all the other horrific bullshit aside to focus on the one thing.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Skinypupy wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:11 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:39 am I think most people are single issue voters. 2nd Amendment; abortion; single payer healthcare; wealth inequality.

As long as their party believes in protecting their issue, that's how they are going to vote regardless of any other issue. That means siding with some unsavory people.
Yup. I hear so many "I don't like Trump, but..." followed by single issue justifications that sweep all the other horrific bullshit aside to focus on the one thing.
Single issues are the gateway drug to Trump acceptance. Not full fledged support necessarily, but acceptance.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

The still relevant (and excellent) Cinemax theory of racism via John Scalzi:
It’s perfectly fine to point out to people who voted for racism, that indeed, this is what they voted for. And also that if owning up to the fact that they voted for racism is uncomfortable for them, they should take a moment to think about how bad it is for the targets of that racism, and how bad it has yet to get.

For the Trump voters, Trump’s racism may have been just part of the package deal, the Cinemax they had accept to get the HBO. For those who are the target of that racism (and sexism, and homophobia), however, it’s not Cinemax. It’s their lives. Day to day, and every day. And they’re all too aware of what Trump voters signed up for, to get what they wanted.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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That assumes that people would rather give up their guns or allow baby killing than vote for a racist.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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There’s no problem unless it’s my problem.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:29 pm There’s no problem unless it’s my problem.
Democracy at work.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:25 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:11 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:39 am I think most people are single issue voters. 2nd Amendment; abortion; single payer healthcare; wealth inequality.

As long as their party believes in protecting their issue, that's how they are going to vote regardless of any other issue. That means siding with some unsavory people.
Yup. I hear so many "I don't like Trump, but..." followed by single issue justifications that sweep all the other horrific bullshit aside to focus on the one thing.
Single issues are the gateway drug to Trump acceptance. Not full fledged support necessarily, but acceptance.
Single issues with zero possible compromise as everything is Black & White only. Er, since Orange is the new Black, Orange & White only (which also catches the racists ;) ).
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Defiant »

Time to resurrect this thread.
By using the word incite, the draft focuses on the speech given by Trump before the storming of the Capitol. This narrow focus has caused some lawyers and scholars, including Trump’s own previous impeachment defense attorney Alan Dershowitz, to say Democrats are trying to punish constitutionally-protected speech. The very potential for debate gives Congressional Republicans, including those who may disapprove of both Trump’s recent actions and inactions, an opportunity to oppose impeachment.

It is also not necessary to characterize the events that transpired as an insurrection, which may strike some as an exaggeration, when the behavior of those who attacked the Capitol fit the federal crime of “seditious conspiracy” (which actually carries twice the ten-year sentence of insurrection). This crime is committed whenever two or more people conspire “by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States,” which is exactly what took place on Wednesday. Also, those who attacked the Capitol did so with the explicit purpose of preventing Congress from carrying out its legal duty to certify the election, thus committing another form of seditious conspiracy: conspiring “by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States.”

Because “seditious conspiracy” perfectly describes the crimes committed on January 6, why not make the straightforward charge that Trump was a party to this conspiracy? Someone can be considered part of a criminal conspiracy even if they did not know “all the details of the crime or all of the members of the conspiracy,” as long as they shared the general objective of the conspiracy, which could be stated in this case as simply as: to use force or the threat of force to prevent Congress and the vice president from counting and announcing certified electoral votes for president on the date and at the time set by law.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... acy-456937
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

I read that piece earlier - hard disagree with that piece. It is sound law but bad politics. The Article of Impeachment that Cicilline, Raskin, and Lieu put together is good politics. It is simple and recognizes that there is a low chance that they are going to get a conviction even with a strong legal case. It instead leans heavily on a well reported narrative that has overwhelming support in both the newspapers and CW. That narrative puts the Republicans on the back foot. In essence, the Republicans will be put in a tough spot if they choose to vote against that simple narrative. If the Articles focused on a legalistic approach it allows them to play all sorts of games to defend their vote.
Last edited by malchior on Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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Interesting that Agolf had to hire a Jewish attorney for a competent defense. Sad that Dershowitz, once a champion of civil rights, is now a national disgrace.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

This is correct

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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by hitbyambulance »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:25 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:11 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:39 am I think most people are single issue voters. 2nd Amendment; abortion; single payer healthcare; wealth inequality.

As long as their party believes in protecting their issue, that's how they are going to vote regardless of any other issue. That means siding with some unsavory people.
Yup. I hear so many "I don't like Trump, but..." followed by single issue justifications that sweep all the other horrific bullshit aside to focus on the one thing.
Single issues are the gateway drug to Trump acceptance. Not full fledged support necessarily, but acceptance.
this is why my dad gave up the Republican party - he hates hypocrisy, and i believe to him, single-issue voters (of which the Republican party is crammed full of) are among the biggest hypocrites. for example, he is not a fan of abortion (to put it mildly) but he was disgusted with the garbage people being elected to office based on this one platform.
malchior
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

FWIW apparently because Parler is about to go down someone made a message collage out of Trump clips calling for action on the 20th and posted under an account that appears to be Trump's. It isnt clear if it him or whether Trump sanctioned it or not. Several people have said they have reported it to the FBI and Twitter is deleting it wherever it is being shared.
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LawBeefaroni
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Gab is still up.

Gab, a social networking site popular among the far right, seems to be capitalizing on Twitter bans and Parler's suspension from the Google store. It says its gaining 10,000 new users every hour
.
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malchior
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:29 pm Gab is still up.

Gab, a social networking site popular among the far right, seems to be capitalizing on Twitter bans and Parler's suspension from the Google store. It says its gaining 10,000 new users every hour
.
They are on DigitalOcean (according to Shodan at least) and use Cloudflare as a CDN. We'll see if people start putting pressure on DigitalOcean next. Interestingly, DigitalOcean already has said that Parler would be in violation of their TOS and wasn't welcome.

Comments from DigitalOcean with some "fun" Internet banter!



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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Jaymann »

Articles of Impeachment introduced! Vote likely on Wednesday.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Defiant »

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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by El Guapo »

Former GOP officials are the bravest of GOP officials
Black Lives Matter.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:58 pm Former GOP officials are the bravest of GOP officials
Don't forget about retiring GOP officials!
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