Corona Virus: It's a Marathon, Not a Sprint

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:46 am

$iljanus wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:42 am
Holman wrote:Flu season will be rough because everyone will think its COVID.
Luckily for us we can test to confirm what a person may have. Well, in countries that have a good public health infrastructure to support mass testing anyway.

The main fear is a run on testing locations and labs that could overwhelm the system that's already struggling to keep up with covid testing.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:52 am

Kraken wrote:
$iljanus wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:42 am
Holman wrote:Flu season will be rough because everyone will think its COVID.
Luckily for us we can test to confirm what a person may have. Well, in countries that have a good public health infrastructure to support mass testing anyway.
The main fear is a run on testing locations and labs that could overwhelm the system that's already struggling to keep up with covid testing.

Yup. We definitely don't qualify as a country with a good public health infrastructure to support mass testing which assumes you have enough labs, reagents and the mundane boring stuff like swabs along with a government to help things along as needed. But if you're on a major sports team or can afford concierge medical care then the USA is number one!

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:10 am

We had a briefing yesterday. During March/April/May our capacity for COVID was, let's say, X because all elective and non-urgent/emergent services were shut down by order.

Now our capacity is about 2/3X because we have other beds in use. IOW, out threshold for "critical shortage" of beds is about half of what it was in March-May. Most other hospitals and systems will be in the same boat.

So if we hit even half the peak levels plus flu it'll be an interesting season.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:34 am

$iljanus wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:52 am But if you're on a major sports team or can afford concierge medical care then the USA is number one!

I need to believe 50+ years from now, historians are going to point out that we did next to nothing for the general population but bent over backwards to make sure sportsball continued during a pandemic. It's beyond absurd. I can imagine people thinking we couldn't open schools for kids under 10 but instead managed to make sure every NFL player was cleared to run around for 60 minutes a week on the TV.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:43 pm

Shut your mouth!

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:22 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:10 am We had a briefing yesterday. During March/April/May our capacity for COVID was, let's say, X because all elective and non-urgent/emergent services were shut down by order.

Now our capacity is about 2/3X because we have other beds in use. IOW, out threshold for "critical shortage" of beds is about half of what it was in March-May. Most other hospitals and systems will be in the same boat.

So if we hit even half the peak levels plus flu it'll be an interesting season.

On an uncharacteristically optimistic note...Australia's flu season, which is often a harbinger of our own, was historically mild. The measures Australians took to ward off coronavirus worked equally well against flu virus. I'm sure Americans will be just as responsible.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:27 pm

Kraken wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:22 pmOn an uncharacteristically optimistic note...Australia's flu season, which is often a harbinger of our own, was historically mild. The measures Australians took to ward off coronavirus worked equally well against flu virus. I'm sure Americans will be just as responsible.

Yup. That's the rub. On paper, we should have a very mild flu season, expecting people to get vaccinated, wear masks and maintain social distancing recommendations (particularly during upcoming holidays).

Instead, freedom.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:32 pm

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:16 am We've had the first bout of sniffles and general gunk run through our house this week. The 50 degree temperature swing earlier in the week might have had something to do with that.

While there are no signs of coronavirus (no fever, no cough...just stuffy head, bit of a sore throat, and feeling a little cruddy), the kids are absolutely PANICKED that mom and dad are going to die from COVID, like Uncle Ken did. Wonder Twin 7.3a spent nearly all of last night in tears because he was so worried about what he’d do without us.

Poor kids.

That's rough

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:34 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:10 am We had a briefing yesterday. During March/April/May our capacity for COVID was, let's say, X because all elective and non-urgent/emergent services were shut down by order.

Now our capacity is about 2/3X because we have other beds in use. IOW, out threshold for "critical shortage" of beds is about half of what it was in March-May. Most other hospitals and systems will be in the same boat.

So if we hit even half the peak levels plus flu it'll be an interesting season.

Maybe (hopefully) the measures being taken to prevent Covid will reduce the prevalence of the flu.

edit: What Kraken said.
edit: And Smoove

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:26 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
$iljanus wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:52 am But if you're on a major sports team or can afford concierge medical care then the USA is number one!
I need to believe 50+ years from now, historians are going to point out that we did next to nothing for the general population but bent over backwards to make sure sportsball continued during a pandemic. It's beyond absurd. I can imagine people thinking we couldn't open schools for kids under 10 but instead managed to make sure every NFL player was cleared to run around for 60 minutes a week on the TV.

We can always breed more worker drones in the Dystopic States of America. Athletes are valued commodities for their owners and entertain the masses.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:42 pm

Alefroth wrote:Poor kids.

That's heart breaking. I worry so much about the little ones. Kids are tough but if they're anything like mine they're pretty good at hiding their concerns too. I'm always afraid mine are putting on a brave face but privately freaking out inside.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:32 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:42 pm
Alefroth wrote:Poor kids.
That's heart breaking. I worry so much about the little ones. Kids are tough but if they're anything like mine they're pretty good at hiding their concerns too. I'm always afraid mine are putting on a brave face but privately freaking out inside.

Mine are somewhere in between, but it's quite clear to me that this experience has left and will continue to leave a significant mark on them that they'll carry for the rest of their lives. It's probably already harder than anything I had to deal with growing up.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:37 pm

This analysis seems...poorly considered. Are all those students on a campus somewhere?

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:14 am

Chris Wallace putting a lying Trumpist's feet to the fire about the lying the administration is doing. I'll say that certain media figures have finally started questioning them much harder recently. The bad news is that Fauci is indicating mid-to-end 2021 before we get past this period.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:28 am

I wish news places would refer to these people for what they are..moron liars. Just call them that over and over until they leave.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:51 am

What's scary about Fauci's prediction of mid-to-end of 2021 is that he's generally been a rosy optimist. When he says end of 2021, I think mid-2022. I've pretty much come to terms with putting off all vacations, etc. for another year.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:31 pm

I assume he is seeing trial data straight from the studies. One vaccine already hit a snag due to safety concerns...so maybe that is why he is being cautious.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:16 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:51 am What's scary about Fauci's prediction of mid-to-end of 2021 is that he's generally been a rosy optimist. When he says end of 2021, I think mid-2022. I've pretty much come to terms with putting off all vacations, etc. for another year.

If that's when he expects "normalcy," then he must expect a vaccine at least six months earlier. It will take that long to produce and distribute. End of '21 sounds like a reasonable guess to me.

Default · Post by **Default** » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:13 pm

I have no confidence in anything, at the moment. The guy who works next to me is still convinced that the numbers of covid deaths are inflated. There are far too many of those dopes around, and it is more likely that they'll be the spreaders.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:47 am

YellowKing wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:51 amWhat's scary about Fauci's prediction of mid-to-end of 2021 is that he's generally been a rosy optimist. When he says end of 2021, I think mid-2022. I've pretty much come to terms with putting off all vacations, etc. for another year.

Fauci is probably adjusting his expectations of timelines based on the absolute bungling of the administration. He keeps pitching the best case scenarios, and the administration finds new ways to ensure we can't get to them.

Our kids are well aware of COVID-19, but we haven't lost anyone and we're straight with them that other illnesses to exist. I'm hoping that if anyone gets a sniffle they don't freak out.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:33 pm

Face masks may be inadvertently giving people Covid-19 immunity and making them get less sick from the virus, academics have suggested in one of the most respected medical journals in the world.

The commentary, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, advances the unproven but promising theory that universal face mask wearing might be helping to reduce the severity of the virus and ensuring that a greater proportion of new infections are asymptomatic.

It comes as increasing evidence suggests that the amount of virus someone is exposed to at the start of infection - the “infectious dose” - may determine the severity of their illness. Indeed, a large study published in the Lancet last month found that “viral load at diagnosis” was an “independent predictor of mortality” in hospital patients.

Wearing masks could therefore reduce the infectious dose that the wearer is exposed to and, subsequently, the impact of the disease, as masks filter out some virus-containing droplets.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-heal ... searchers/

noxiousdog · Post by **noxiousdog** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:42 pm

From the above article,

In a coronavirus outbreak on a closed Argentinian cruise ship, for example, where passengers were provided with surgical masks and staff with N95 masks, the rate of asymptomatic infection was 81 per cent. This is compared with 20 per cent in earlier cruise ship outbreaks without universal masking.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:35 pm

I could think up some witticisms and snark but I’m pretty worried about this guy and I’ll let his words speak for itself.

From the NYT:

Trump Health Aide Alleges Broad Conspiracies and Warns of Armed Revolt
Michael Caputo, the assistant secretary of health for public affairs, told a Facebook audience without evidence that left-wing hit squads were being trained for insurrection, and he accused C.D.C. scientists of “sedition.”

WASHINGTON — The top communications official at the powerful cabinet department in charge of combating the coronavirus accused career government scientists on Sunday of “sedition” in their handling of the pandemic and warned that left-wing hit squads were preparing for armed insurrection after the election.

Michael Caputo, 58, the assistant secretary of public affairs at the Department of Health and Human Services, said without evidence that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention was harboring a “resistance unit” determined to undermine President Trump.

Mr. Caputo, who has faced criticism for leading efforts to warp C.D.C. weekly bulletins to fit Mr. Trump’s pandemic narrative, suggested that he personally could be in danger.

“You understand that they’re going to have to kill me, and unfortunately, I think that’s where this is going,” Mr. Caputo, a Trump loyalist installed by the White House in April, told followers in a video he hosted live on his personal Facebook page. Mr. Caputo has 5,000 Facebook friends, and the video has been viewed more than 850 times. It has been shared by 44 followers.

At this point in the article you should start playing the creepy music usually played when a TV or movie character starts to slide into insanity.

Mr. Caputo on Sunday complained on Facebook that he was under siege by the media and said that his physical health was in question and his “mental health has definitely failed.”

“I don’t like being alone in Washington,” he said, describing “shadows on the ceiling in my apartment, there alone, shadows are so long.” He then ran through a series of conspiracy theories, culminating in a prediction that Mr. Trump will win re-election but his Democratic opponent, Joseph R. Biden Jr., will refuse to concede.

“And when Donald Trump refuses to stand down at the inauguration, the shooting will begin,” he said. “The drills that you’ve seen are nothing.” He added: “If you carry guns, buy ammunition, ladies and gentlemen, because it’s going to be hard to get.”

Oh and Facebook,you suck ass! It was all well and good when grandmas used it to see their grandchildren pics and to let people know when and where the next gaming meetup would be but fuck this shit.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:41 pm

$iljanus wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:35 pmAt this point in the article you should start playing the creepy music usually played when a TV or movie character starts to slide into insanity.

I think maybe more the ominous foreshadowing music played when you see the evil character talking about and preemptively defending his dastardly plot.

Little Raven · Post by **Little Raven** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:45 pm

$iljanus wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:35 pm“And when Donald Trump refuses to stand down at the inauguration, the shooting will begin,” he said. “The drills that you’ve seen are nothing.” He added: “If you carry guns, buy ammunition, ladies and gentlemen, because it’s going to be hard to get."

Evidence from areas around the world experiencing civil unrest suggests otherwise. Where demand exists, supply will find a way.

That said, this poor guy is clearly losing his mind. It would be funny in a movie, it's just sad in real life.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:51 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:41 pm
$iljanus wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:35 pmAt this point in the article you should start playing the creepy music usually played when a TV or movie character starts to slide into insanity.
I think maybe more the ominous foreshadowing music played when you see the evil character talking about and preemptively defending his dastardly plot.

You’d think so but when he talked about the growing shadows on the ceiling of his apartment you’ve ventured into Lifetime Channel creepy guy world.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:57 pm

$iljanus wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:51 pm
malchior wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:41 pm
$iljanus wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:35 pmAt this point in the article you should start playing the creepy music usually played when a TV or movie character starts to slide into insanity.
I think maybe more the ominous foreshadowing music played when you see the evil character talking about and preemptively defending his dastardly plot.
You’d think so but when he talked about the growing shadows on the ceiling of his apartment you’ve ventured into Lifetime Channel creepy guy world.

Yeah - I recognize that. Still I can't get past the fact that he is a dirty tricks guy. Maybe he is actually melting down, maybe this is just a paranoia sales scheme for the cult to drink up, and very likely a mix of the two.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:21 pm

$iljanus wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:35 pm
“And when Donald Trump refuses to stand down at the inauguration, the shooting will begin,” he said. “The drills that you’ve seen are nothing.” He added: “If you carry guns, buy ammunition, ladies and gentlemen, because it’s going to be hard to get.”

What's sadly comical is that this theme is applying to both sides.

The scenario posted is when Biden "wins" an election and Trump refuses to concede. The only difference between left and right views is the quotes around wins.

In what scenario does it break down into armed conflict between the two sides?

Remember that this is 2020 and anything governed by "norms" and "ethics" is right out the window on the incumbent's side. We have a commander in chief who knew from the beginning that this was a lethal plague and seemed content to encourage it's spread, with the only motivation seeming to be to reduce headcount in areas that oppose him. Please tell me I'm wrong.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:25 pm

I still think this is a Y2K situation where we're all predicting Armageddon and then will be surprised when everything goes relatively smoothly. If I'm wrong and we wake up November 4th in Civil War 2 with people shooting each other in the streets, I'll admit I was wrong.

I just don't think Trump is going to refuse to concede unless there is some question as to the outcome of the election. Then yes, I'll expect a lot of legal wrangling. But if Biden wins decisively, Trump steps down. He talks a big game, but it's mostly bluster. When the pressure piles on about the hit he'll take to his image, he usually backs off.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:28 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:25 pm I still think this is a Y2K situation where we're all predicting Armageddon and then will be surprised when everything goes relatively smoothly. If I'm wrong and we wake up November 4th in Civil War 2 with people shooting each other in the streets, I'll admit I was wrong.

It wouldn't be like that anyway...there is little chance Biden doesn't concede unless there is outright in your face election shenanigans. However, there is a perceived high chance that Trump won't concede no matter what. That is the unknown. If he pulls that trigger, it'll be a long slog to January. And violence if it comes will start slow and local.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:32 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:28 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:25 pm I still think this is a Y2K situation where we're all predicting Armageddon and then will be surprised when everything goes relatively smoothly. If I'm wrong and we wake up November 4th in Civil War 2 with people shooting each other in the streets, I'll admit I was wrong.
It wouldn't be like that anyway...there is little chance Biden doesn't concede unless there is outright in your face election shenanigans. However, there is a perceived high chance that Trump won't concede no matter what. That is the unknown. If he pulls that trigger, it'll be a long slog to January. And violence if it comes will start slow and local.

The core reason why it's really hard to see this going smoothly (in addition to everything that Trump has said) is that Trump has criminal exposure for which his only secure protection is to remain president. So that creates a pretty powerful incentive for him to fight tooth and nail to remain in office.

So the only scenarios where I see this going smoothly is if Biden wins in an enormous blowout (beyond any capacity to plausibly change the outcome by fighting), or if Biden agrees to pardon Trump (though maybe not even then, given Trump's state-level criminal exposure).

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:39 pm

Little Raven wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:45 pm
$iljanus wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:35 pm“And when Donald Trump refuses to stand down at the inauguration, the shooting will begin,” he said. “The drills that you’ve seen are nothing.” He added: “If you carry guns, buy ammunition, ladies and gentlemen, because it’s going to be hard to get."
Evidence from areas around the world experiencing civil unrest suggests otherwise. Where demand exists, supply will find a way.

Going to guess that you haven't tried to buy ammo lately.

Demand is outpacing supply and manufacturers aren't ramping up production because they don't want to be left sitting on a ton of unused equipment in 2021. So supply has dried up and whatever rolls off the line is instantly bought up, usually at insane pricing.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:45 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:39 pmDemand is outpacing supply and manufacturers aren't ramping up production because they don't want to be left sitting on a ton of unused equipment in 2021. So supply has dried up and whatever rolls off the line is instantly bought up, usually at insane pricing.

I'm surprised Trump hasn't invoked the Defense Production Act to mandate an expedite the creation of ammunition. For freedom.

Can't get people tested, can't release money or get PPE made. But bullets? Americans need their bullets!

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:49 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:25 pm I still think this is a Y2K situation where we're all predicting Armageddon and then will be surprised when everything goes relatively smoothly. If I'm wrong and we wake up November 4th in Civil War 2 with people shooting each other in the streets, I'll admit I was wrong.

I don't think it will be shooting in all the streets. Mostly because the sides are largely geographically separated. Be it by neighborhood, city, or state. What you will have, and what we have seen already, are the violent elements traveling to hotspots to LARP fight it out. There will be sporadic violence, as we've seen. If you're unlucky enough to be in a "protest" zone, look out.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:25 pm I just don't think Trump is going to refuse to concede unless there is some question as to the outcome of the election. Then yes, I'll expect a lot of legal wrangling. But if Biden wins decisively, Trump steps down. He talks a big game, but it's mostly bluster. When the pressure piles on about the hit he'll take to his image, he usually backs off.

Fortunately he's easy to buy. Give him and his immunity and let everyone keep their ill-gotten gains and he'll probably l gallop off into the sunset happily. Best case scenario, and he'll still be leaving behind a nation in chaos.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:55 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:45 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:39 pmDemand is outpacing supply and manufacturers aren't ramping up production because they don't want to be left sitting on a ton of unused equipment in 2021. So supply has dried up and whatever rolls off the line is instantly bought up, usually at insane pricing.
I'm surprised Trump hasn't invoked the Defense Production Act to mandate an expedite the creation of ammunition. For freedom.

Can't get people tested, can't release money or get PPE made. But bullets? Americans need their bullets!

Search "ammo" in Google news and you'll see a hundred headlines like this:

‘The country is literally out of ammunition.’ Gun store owners scramble to meet unprecedented demand.

Of course the federal government is sitting on a massive stockpile but I could see a LEO shortage becoming an issue if this continues.

Little Raven · Post by **Little Raven** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:58 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:39 pmGoing to guess that you haven't tried to buy ammo lately.

Oh, I have, but that's a temporary situation. Manufacturers aren't stepping up because a) Coronavirus and b) they fully expect this is simply a demand surge that will taper off once the election passes.

But if we all start cracking each other's skulls open and feasting on the goo inside come late November, well, it will be pretty clear that this ISN'T just a phase, and overseas manufacturers will come looking for a buck. We'll have a lot of problems, but I'm thinking ammo won't be one of them.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:56 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:49 pm Fortunately he's easy to buy. Give him and his immunity and let everyone keep their ill-gotten gains and he'll probably l gallop off into the sunset happily. Best case scenario, and he'll still be leaving behind a nation in chaos.

I won't be remotely surprised if Putin is keeping a dacha open for trump.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:11 pm

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:56 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:49 pm Fortunately he's easy to buy. Give him and his immunity and let everyone keep their ill-gotten gains and he'll probably l gallop off into the sunset happily. Best case scenario, and he'll still be leaving behind a nation in chaos.
I won't be remotely surprised if Putin is keeping a dacha open for trump.

Guaranteed polonium-free!

For 12 months.

hitbyambulance · Post by **hitbyambulance** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:54 pm

Defiant wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:33 pm
Face masks may be inadvertently giving people Covid-19 immunity and making them get less sick from the virus, academics have suggested in one of the most respected medical journals in the world.

The commentary, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, advances the unproven but promising theory that universal face mask wearing might be helping to reduce the severity of the virus and ensuring that a greater proportion of new infections are asymptomatic.

It comes as increasing evidence suggests that the amount of virus someone is exposed to at the start of infection - the “infectious dose” - may determine the severity of their illness. Indeed, a large study published in the Lancet last month found that “viral load at diagnosis” was an “independent predictor of mortality” in hospital patients.

Wearing masks could therefore reduce the infectious dose that the wearer is exposed to and, subsequently, the impact of the disease, as masks filter out some virus-containing droplets.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-heal ... searchers/

Still, Dr Monica Gandhi, an infectious disease physician at the University of California, San Francisco, and one of the paper’s authors, has stressed that the commentary has its limitations and should not be construed as anything other than a theory.

_hypothesis_, not theory

i had been wondering about this ever since that one study mentioned how initial viral load tied directly to mortality outcomes, but it still sounds too wishful/magical thinking.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:56 pm

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:56 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:49 pm Fortunately he's easy to buy. Give him and his immunity and let everyone keep their ill-gotten gains and he'll probably l gallop off into the sunset happily. Best case scenario, and he'll still be leaving behind a nation in chaos.
I won't be remotely surprised if Putin is keeping a dacha open for trump.

If Trump loses and becomes a media crank, he can keep damaging America by inflaming conspiracy theories and claiming to know secret presidential knowledge that undermines everything Biden attempts to do.

In that case, he's the gift to Putin that keeps on giving, and Trump Tower Moscow is a pretty sure thing.