Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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Kraken
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Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

Post by Kraken »

Tomorrow night from 8-10 ET, we finally get a proper one-on-one debate between the last two septuagenarians standing. Neither of them are especially good debaters, but Bernie has a slight natural advantage. If he wins, will it matter? Will they come with daggers, or with olive branches to meet in the middle? Will they bump elbows?

I plan to watch.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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I'm gunna say this: every single question should be related to Coronavirus. We've had plenty of questions on other topics in other debates (although to be sure, some areas were lacking), but this is probably going to be the biggest thing this country has had to face since WW2 (edit: Maybe the Cuban Missile Crisis is on the same level?)
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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Defiant wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:23 pm I'm gunna say this: every single question should be related to Coronavirus. We've had plenty of questions on other topics in other debates (although to be sure, some areas were lacking), but this is probably going to be the biggest thing this country has had to face since WW2 (edit: Maybe the Cuban Missile Crisis is on the same level?)
One writer likened it to the 1918 pandemic (for potential loss of life) meets 9/11 (for fear and uncertainty), so it sure deserves a good chunk of time, and of course health care has been front and center all along.

After all these debates, this will be the first time any candidate has been able to go into details instead of 60-second bites. I wish Warren was up there instead of Sanders, because she shines in a one-on-one and had done the homework. And I wish either Klobs or Butti were taking the Biden role. But we got the B Team instead, so let's see what they've got.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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Trump failed us.
Healthcare for everyone.
Good night.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

Post by El Guapo »

Kraken wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:15 pm
Defiant wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:23 pm I'm gunna say this: every single question should be related to Coronavirus. We've had plenty of questions on other topics in other debates (although to be sure, some areas were lacking), but this is probably going to be the biggest thing this country has had to face since WW2 (edit: Maybe the Cuban Missile Crisis is on the same level?)
One writer likened it to the 1918 pandemic (for potential loss of life) meets 9/11 (for fear and uncertainty), so it sure deserves a good chunk of time, and of course health care has been front and center all along.

After all these debates, this will be the first time any candidate has been able to go into details instead of 60-second bites. I wish Warren was up there instead of Sanders, because she shines in a one-on-one and had done the homework. And I wish either Klobs or Butti were taking the Biden role. But we got the B Team instead, so let's see what they've got.
They're going with no audience due to coronavirus, right? I think that's going to put it front and center regardless.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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Kraken wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:15 pm
Defiant wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:23 pm I'm gunna say this: every single question should be related to Coronavirus. We've had plenty of questions on other topics in other debates (although to be sure, some areas were lacking), but this is probably going to be the biggest thing this country has had to face since WW2 (edit: Maybe the Cuban Missile Crisis is on the same level?)
One writer likened it to the 1918 pandemic (for potential loss of life) meets 9/11 (for fear and uncertainty), so it sure deserves a good chunk of time, and of course health care has been front and center all along.
1918 didn't hit a society that hadn't experienced any real, immediate, widespread danger in 70 years, leading people to take their own safety for granted. 9/11 had uncertainty and fear, but it was concentrated in pockets. This kind of thing hasn't occurred, for the most part, in living memory, and most people won't take it seriously until it is too late.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

Post by Kraken »

I missed the first 15 minutes...from what I have seen, so far these guys are largely agreeing with one another. That's good.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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I don't know if this will work against him or not but Biden essentially announced a female VP and signed on for black female SCOTUS appointment. This feels like a strategic unforced error. These type of identity politics aren't very popular with older voters.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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malchior wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:26 pm I don't know if this will work against him or not but Biden essentially announced a female VP and signed on for black female SCOTUS appointment. This feels like a strategic unforced error. These type of identity politics aren't very popular with older voters.
Nah. It'll command the headlines tomorrow, and Sanders loses for that alone.

It almost certainly means that Biden's campaign has already been in discussion with potential VP candidates and that they're probably close to an announcement.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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Now Sanders is trying to defend his comments re the Castro regime on the basis of nuance. This is a huge mistake; the only move to make here is to denounce Castro unequivocally, and he can't bring himself to do it. This is how you lose Florida.

Sanders has never understood the difference between an academic and politician.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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I guess I missed it. Was there anything new other than the talk of the SC pick? Particularly w/ regards to the pandemic?
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

Post by Holman »

538's livestream is now summing up.
Nate Silver wrote:I don’t know that Sanders had much of a shot in the primary anyway, barring the coronavirus having extremely unpredictable effects. And tonight, which was maybe Sanders’s last/best opportunity for a miracle comeback, I think instead Biden had one of his stronger debates of the cycle. Some people will question his aggression toward Sanders, but it seems to keep Biden focused and Sanders a bit off-balance.
Nathanial Rakich wrote:This was a pretty fragmented debate, each fragment of which had a different takeaway, in my opinion. On the coronavirus, both Biden and Sanders seemed very serious and prepared and projected the leadership people are probably looking for in this time of crisis. On most other policy issues, though, they spent a lot of time bickering — a lot more than I thought they would, given that the primary is basically not competitive anymore. I think Sanders won most of those exchanges and did a good job exposing that Biden has not been consistent in his positions over the years, but I think Cuba and China was one topic where Biden bested Sanders. Finally, though, I think the most newsworthy parts of the debate were when Biden made, well, actual news — he committed to ending most deportations and picking a female running mate. Overall, the debate did not feature the kind of colossal Biden gaffe that was needed to dislodge him as a national front-runner.
Geoffrey Skelley wrote:Sometimes debates can dramatically move opinions during a primary election. This was not one of those debates, and it might be the last one — we’ll see. It doesn’t help Sanders that his criticisms of Biden will have to break through during a period when media coverage will be framed almost entirely around the coronavirus. That part of the debate was less divisive, so if it’s covered, it shouldn’t do much to change minds. I thought Biden had a solid debate, too, and he avoided making the sort of mistake(s) that could’ve conceivably caused some voters to question their support for him.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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Sanders said what I've been thinking: That we need this scale of mobilization against climate change. In a utopian fantasy, the corona crisis galvanizes cooperation to beat down global warming, mass extinction, and rising authoritarianism. Wouldn't it be great if this is a Holy Shit moment that leads to all that?
Spoiler:
It won't
Neither one struck a death blow. Sanders could've challenged Biden to forgo Bloomberg money, since we all know who's going to pay for Biden's run; that's what I'd have done.

All in all, a disappointing debate that won't change anything. I'm glad that they each vowed to support the other since I don't care which one wins.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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Holman wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:49 pm Now Sanders is trying to defend his comments re the Castro regime on the basis of nuance. This is a huge mistake; the only move to make here is to denounce Castro unequivocally, and he can't bring himself to do it. This is how you lose Florida.
It is really strange how he can't bring himself to denounce guys like Castro. It's just a huge blindspot for him. And it's not like there is some mass of pro-Castro voters he's trying to appeal to.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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It doesn't diminish you to acknowledge good in foreign adversaries, but that doesn't fit into political vocabulary.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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Kraken wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:51 am It doesn't diminish you to acknowledge good in foreign adversaries, but that doesn't fit into political vocabulary.
As much as I think Sanders is a fool for going there with his Castro comments, he’s not exactly wrong. And I agree with what you wrote. It doesn’t change my view that Sanders was and will remain unelectable, but, on some level, it’s one of the things I respect him for.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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Kurth wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:13 am
Kraken wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:51 am It doesn't diminish you to acknowledge good in foreign adversaries, but that doesn't fit into political vocabulary.
As much as I think Sanders is a fool for going there with his Castro comments, he’s not exactly wrong. And I agree with what you wrote. It doesn’t change my view that Sanders was and will remain unelectable, but, on some level, it’s one of the things I respect him for.
Honestly, I'm not sure that I understand the pro-Castro argument. Seems like the main ones are that his predecessor that he overthrew (Bautista) was also terrible, and that he did more social spending. Which is true, but even granting that, "Dictator with more social spending" is not the most compelling case, especially given that he's stunted Cuba's eventual political growth.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

Post by Holman »

El Guapo wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:49 am
Kurth wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:13 am
Kraken wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:51 am It doesn't diminish you to acknowledge good in foreign adversaries, but that doesn't fit into political vocabulary.
As much as I think Sanders is a fool for going there with his Castro comments, he’s not exactly wrong. And I agree with what you wrote. It doesn’t change my view that Sanders was and will remain unelectable, but, on some level, it’s one of the things I respect him for.
Honestly, I'm not sure that I understand the pro-Castro argument. Seems like the main ones are that his predecessor that he overthrew (Bautista) was also terrible, and that he did more social spending. Which is true, but even granting that, "Dictator with more social spending" is not the most compelling case, especially given that he's stunted Cuba's eventual political growth.
Bernie came of political age as a Chomsky Leftist, and he never gave it up.

Defending Castro wasn't so much defending Castro as it was a backhand critique of American Empire.
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

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Grifman wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:47 am
It is really strange how he can't bring himself to denounce guys like Castro. It's just a huge blindspot for him. And it's not like there is some mass of pro-Castro voters he's trying to appeal to.
Meanwhile he has had no problems attacking the Democratic party. And yet there's a whole mass of pro-Democratic party voters he should be trying to appeal to. :coffee:
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Re: Biden vs. Bernie cage match: the last (?) debate

Post by El Guapo »

Holman wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:58 am
El Guapo wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:49 am
Kurth wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:13 am
Kraken wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:51 am It doesn't diminish you to acknowledge good in foreign adversaries, but that doesn't fit into political vocabulary.
As much as I think Sanders is a fool for going there with his Castro comments, he’s not exactly wrong. And I agree with what you wrote. It doesn’t change my view that Sanders was and will remain unelectable, but, on some level, it’s one of the things I respect him for.
Honestly, I'm not sure that I understand the pro-Castro argument. Seems like the main ones are that his predecessor that he overthrew (Bautista) was also terrible, and that he did more social spending. Which is true, but even granting that, "Dictator with more social spending" is not the most compelling case, especially given that he's stunted Cuba's eventual political growth.
Bernie came of political age as a Chomsky Leftist, and he never gave it up.

Defending Castro wasn't so much defending Castro as it was a backhand critique of American Empire.
Yeah, it always bugs me that a lot of people who are deeply hostile to American power simply project virtue onto America's enemies, by virtue of them being America's enemies.

Of course, there is a tendency for those who lionize American power to lionize America's allies, for similar reasons. Everyone wants a simple story.
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