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The Viral Economy

For discussion of religion and politics

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LordMortis
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LordMortis »

Wait a moment! A unit of pizza or a unit of case of beer is definitely not a unit of nothing.
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Kurth
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Kurth »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:38 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:12 pm
LordMortis wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:13 pm
RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:07 pm
Kurth wrote:Smells consistent to me.

Stupid -- I am not a bitcoin believer -- but consistent.
You think it’s stupid to spend $43,000 to buy nothing, with the hopes that you can convince someone tomorrow to pay you more than $43,000 for nothing?!?
Ahem, that's one full unit of nothing. You can a fraction of a unit or $1.5 billion in units of nothing. Though to be fair, a dollar expressed electronically is a unit of nothing that is backed by the US government.
This is kind of a big deal. 😀
Except they're not, at least according to the US Treasury Department.
Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are "backed" by all the goods and services in the economy.
They backed only by the fact that people are willing to trade goods or services for them. Much like BTC or cases of beer.
I'm admittedly way out over my skis on this topic, but doesn't your response have a lot to do with how you're defining "backed by"? No, you can't redeem dollars for gold or silver, but my understanding is that the dollar IS backed by the U.S. government, in the sense that the government of the United States will act to maintain the dollar as a relatively stable currency.

Per Investopedia, the dollar is "fiat money," defined as:
Fiat money is government-issued currency that is not backed by a physical commodity, such as gold or silver, but rather by the government that issued it. The value of fiat money is derived from the relationship between supply and demand and the stability of the issuing government, rather than the worth of a commodity backing it as is the case for commodity money. Most modern paper currencies are fiat currencies, including the U.S. dollar, the euro, and other major global currencies.
That's the part that seems like kind of a big deal to me. The dollar has the U.S. government propping it up. Bitcoin has my brother-in-law. :lol:
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Carpet_pissr
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Carpet_pissr »

noxiousdog wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:43 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:Which law did he break again?
lhim, and I don’t own Tesla stock. I certainly pldon’t view him as ‘evil’ (partly bc as mentioned, I really don’t follow him closely).

My bone is not with him at all, it’s with the lax, weak and inconsistent enforcement of SEC regulations that are currently on the books, flawed and full of loopholes as they are.

Let me ask you this: do you think Trump’s tweets and speech incited the crowd at the Capital on Jan 6?
What a weird tangent.

Are you automatically assuming that someone that doesn't match in lockstep with the latter latest progressive view is a Trump supporter?

Of course Trump incited the riots.
Oops, just saw this. It's a weird tangent because the first half of my very lengthy reply was somehow Tapatalked away :grund: :grund: And because I wrote it a few days ago, I have no idea what I wrote! :(

And no, my comment did not have anything to do with being a Trump supporter or not. Simply making a comparison about two people in positions of considerable power, and the responsibility AND legality of the same, when it comes to communications. Obviously the laws are different regarding such things for CEO's of publicly trade companies, and effectively the CEO of the country, but we as a society at least frown upon both using their platforms to manipulate X in certain ways.
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LawBeefaroni
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:16 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:38 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:12 pm
LordMortis wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:13 pm
RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:07 pm
Kurth wrote:Smells consistent to me.

Stupid -- I am not a bitcoin believer -- but consistent.
You think it’s stupid to spend $43,000 to buy nothing, with the hopes that you can convince someone tomorrow to pay you more than $43,000 for nothing?!?
Ahem, that's one full unit of nothing. You can a fraction of a unit or $1.5 billion in units of nothing. Though to be fair, a dollar expressed electronically is a unit of nothing that is backed by the US government.
This is kind of a big deal. 😀
Except they're not, at least according to the US Treasury Department.
Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are "backed" by all the goods and services in the economy.
They backed only by the fact that people are willing to trade goods or services for them. Much like BTC or cases of beer.
I'm admittedly way out over my skis on this topic, but doesn't your response have a lot to do with how you're defining "backed by"? No, you can't redeem dollars for gold or silver, but my understanding is that the dollar IS backed by the U.S. government, in the sense that the government of the United States will act to maintain the dollar as a relatively stable currency.

Per Investopedia, the dollar is "fiat money," defined as:
Fiat money is government-issued currency that is not backed by a physical commodity, such as gold or silver, but rather by the government that issued it. The value of fiat money is derived from the relationship between supply and demand and the stability of the issuing government, rather than the worth of a commodity backing it as is the case for commodity money. Most modern paper currencies are fiat currencies, including the U.S. dollar, the euro, and other major global currencies.
That's the part that seems like kind of a big deal to me. The dollar has the U.S. government propping it up. Bitcoin has my brother-in-law. :lol:
How exactly is the government backing it, though? It's saying "we have all this stuff so take our word for it." All that stuff is the GDP, all our goods and services. And debt issuance, I suppose. And our military might.

Bitcoin doesn't have any of that, no, but it has defined scarcity and the utility of the blockchain. That's not a lot admittedly but if people agree to value it, it has advantages over government issued fiat currency. If/when China and the US issue crypto, bitcoin will be under threat but at the same time it may be the world's reserve crypto that China and the US are pegging their currency to.
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"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

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noxiousdog
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by noxiousdog »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:17 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:16 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:38 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:12 pm
LordMortis wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:13 pm
RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:07 pm
Kurth wrote:Smells consistent to me.

Stupid -- I am not a bitcoin believer -- but consistent.
You think it’s stupid to spend $43,000 to buy nothing, with the hopes that you can convince someone tomorrow to pay you more than $43,000 for nothing?!?
Ahem, that's one full unit of nothing. You can a fraction of a unit or $1.5 billion in units of nothing. Though to be fair, a dollar expressed electronically is a unit of nothing that is backed by the US government.
This is kind of a big deal. 😀
Except they're not, at least according to the US Treasury Department.
Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are "backed" by all the goods and services in the economy.
They backed only by the fact that people are willing to trade goods or services for them. Much like BTC or cases of beer.
I'm admittedly way out over my skis on this topic, but doesn't your response have a lot to do with how you're defining "backed by"? No, you can't redeem dollars for gold or silver, but my understanding is that the dollar IS backed by the U.S. government, in the sense that the government of the United States will act to maintain the dollar as a relatively stable currency.

Per Investopedia, the dollar is "fiat money," defined as:
Fiat money is government-issued currency that is not backed by a physical commodity, such as gold or silver, but rather by the government that issued it. The value of fiat money is derived from the relationship between supply and demand and the stability of the issuing government, rather than the worth of a commodity backing it as is the case for commodity money. Most modern paper currencies are fiat currencies, including the U.S. dollar, the euro, and other major global currencies.
That's the part that seems like kind of a big deal to me. The dollar has the U.S. government propping it up. Bitcoin has my brother-in-law. :lol:
How exactly is the government backing it, though? It's saying "we have all this stuff so take our word for it." All that stuff is the GDP, all our goods and services. And debt issuance, I suppose. And our military might.

Bitcoin doesn't have any of that, no, but it has defined scarcity and the utility of the blockchain. That's not a lot admittedly but if people agree to value it, it has advantages over government issued fiat currency. If/when China and the US issue crypto, bitcoin will be under threat but at the same time it may be the world's reserve crypto that China and the US are pegging their currency to.
You can only pay your taxes in US dollars. That's kind of a big deal.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Kurth
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Kurth »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:17 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:16 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:38 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:12 pm
LordMortis wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:13 pm
RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:07 pm
Kurth wrote:Smells consistent to me.

Stupid -- I am not a bitcoin believer -- but consistent.
You think it’s stupid to spend $43,000 to buy nothing, with the hopes that you can convince someone tomorrow to pay you more than $43,000 for nothing?!?
Ahem, that's one full unit of nothing. You can a fraction of a unit or $1.5 billion in units of nothing. Though to be fair, a dollar expressed electronically is a unit of nothing that is backed by the US government.
This is kind of a big deal. 😀
Except they're not, at least according to the US Treasury Department.
Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are "backed" by all the goods and services in the economy.
They backed only by the fact that people are willing to trade goods or services for them. Much like BTC or cases of beer.
I'm admittedly way out over my skis on this topic, but doesn't your response have a lot to do with how you're defining "backed by"? No, you can't redeem dollars for gold or silver, but my understanding is that the dollar IS backed by the U.S. government, in the sense that the government of the United States will act to maintain the dollar as a relatively stable currency.

Per Investopedia, the dollar is "fiat money," defined as:
Fiat money is government-issued currency that is not backed by a physical commodity, such as gold or silver, but rather by the government that issued it. The value of fiat money is derived from the relationship between supply and demand and the stability of the issuing government, rather than the worth of a commodity backing it as is the case for commodity money. Most modern paper currencies are fiat currencies, including the U.S. dollar, the euro, and other major global currencies.
That's the part that seems like kind of a big deal to me. The dollar has the U.S. government propping it up. Bitcoin has my brother-in-law. :lol:
How exactly is the government backing it, though?
Umm . . . monetary policy?
Monetary policy in the United States comprises the Federal Reserve's actions and communications to promote maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates--the economic goals the Congress has instructed the Federal Reserve to pursue.
The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it -- John Gilmore
Black Lives Matter
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LawBeefaroni
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Kurth wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:19 am
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:17 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:16 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:38 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:12 pm
LordMortis wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:13 pm
RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:07 pm
Kurth wrote:Smells consistent to me.

Stupid -- I am not a bitcoin believer -- but consistent.
You think it’s stupid to spend $43,000 to buy nothing, with the hopes that you can convince someone tomorrow to pay you more than $43,000 for nothing?!?
Ahem, that's one full unit of nothing. You can a fraction of a unit or $1.5 billion in units of nothing. Though to be fair, a dollar expressed electronically is a unit of nothing that is backed by the US government.
This is kind of a big deal. 😀
Except they're not, at least according to the US Treasury Department.
Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are "backed" by all the goods and services in the economy.
They backed only by the fact that people are willing to trade goods or services for them. Much like BTC or cases of beer.
I'm admittedly way out over my skis on this topic, but doesn't your response have a lot to do with how you're defining "backed by"? No, you can't redeem dollars for gold or silver, but my understanding is that the dollar IS backed by the U.S. government, in the sense that the government of the United States will act to maintain the dollar as a relatively stable currency.

Per Investopedia, the dollar is "fiat money," defined as:
Fiat money is government-issued currency that is not backed by a physical commodity, such as gold or silver, but rather by the government that issued it. The value of fiat money is derived from the relationship between supply and demand and the stability of the issuing government, rather than the worth of a commodity backing it as is the case for commodity money. Most modern paper currencies are fiat currencies, including the U.S. dollar, the euro, and other major global currencies.
That's the part that seems like kind of a big deal to me. The dollar has the U.S. government propping it up. Bitcoin has my brother-in-law. :lol:
How exactly is the government backing it, though?
Umm . . . monetary policy?
Monetary policy in the United States comprises the Federal Reserve's actions and communications to promote maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates--the economic goals the Congress has instructed the Federal Reserve to pursue.
Monetary policy is how the Federal Reserve Bank uses the fiat currency to influence economic conditions. It is not what gives that currency intrinsic value.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

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Max Peck
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Max Peck »

Per the Fed: Is U.S. currency still backed by gold?
Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver, or any other commodity. Federal Reserve notes have not been redeemable in gold since January 30, 1934, when the Congress amended Section 16 of the Federal Reserve Act to read: "The said [Federal Reserve] notes shall be obligations of the United States….They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank." Federal Reserve notes have not been redeemable in silver since the 1960s.

The Congress has specified that Federal Reserve Banks must hold collateral equal in value to the Federal Reserve notes that the Federal Reserve Bank puts in to circulation. This collateral is chiefly held in the form of U.S. Treasury, federal agency, and government-sponsored enterprise securities.
So... US currency is backed by collateral held by the Federal Reserve in the form of securities which are valued in US Dollars which are backed by collateral held by the Federal Reserve? :whistle:
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Paingod »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:12 amIt is not what gives that currency intrinsic value.
I've long thought that the only reason US currency has any value is simply because people believe it does, and that belief is reinforced consistently by "markets" and "policy" - but the paper itself? Worthless. I've appreciated politicians efforts in the past to tear the US away from the Federal Reserve, though, as it's not actually part of the government yet manages to control the country's money.

I'd be more into crypto-currencies if they weren't volatile. Thinking that my $100 today might be $250 tomorrow is nice, but when my $100 becomes $75 tomorrow it's not. US currency doesn't have many wild rides.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Paingod wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:21 am
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:12 amIt is not what gives that currency intrinsic value.
I've long thought that the only reason US currency has any value is simply because people believe it does, and that belief is reinforced consistently by "markets" and "policy" - but the paper itself? Worthless. I've appreciated politicians efforts in the past to tear the US away from the Federal Reserve, though, as it's not actually part of the government yet manages to control the country's money.

I'd be more into crypto-currencies if they weren't volatile. Thinking that my $100 today might be $250 tomorrow is nice, but when my $100 becomes $75 tomorrow it's not. US currency doesn't have many wild rides.
That's an advantage of fiat currency. You can control volatility. However it's also bit of a liability as the printing presses only run one way.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by noxiousdog »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:29 am
Paingod wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:21 am
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:12 amIt is not what gives that currency intrinsic value.
I've long thought that the only reason US currency has any value is simply because people believe it does, and that belief is reinforced consistently by "markets" and "policy" - but the paper itself? Worthless. I've appreciated politicians efforts in the past to tear the US away from the Federal Reserve, though, as it's not actually part of the government yet manages to control the country's money.

I'd be more into crypto-currencies if they weren't volatile. Thinking that my $100 today might be $250 tomorrow is nice, but when my $100 becomes $75 tomorrow it's not. US currency doesn't have many wild rides.
That's an advantage of fiat currency. You can control volatility. However it's also bit of a liability as the printing presses only run one way.
I'm not sure that's accurate. While certainly central banks can helicopter drop, most of the inflation/deflation is based on interest rates which mostly tied to market forces and not governments. It's been 40 years since we've seen real inflation and in fact deflation has been the bigger problem. Not that it couldn't happen again, but when comparing volatility, I don't think that risk is in the same ball park as crypto.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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LawBeefaroni
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LawBeefaroni »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:58 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:29 am
Paingod wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:21 am
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:12 amIt is not what gives that currency intrinsic value.
I've long thought that the only reason US currency has any value is simply because people believe it does, and that belief is reinforced consistently by "markets" and "policy" - but the paper itself? Worthless. I've appreciated politicians efforts in the past to tear the US away from the Federal Reserve, though, as it's not actually part of the government yet manages to control the country's money.

I'd be more into crypto-currencies if they weren't volatile. Thinking that my $100 today might be $250 tomorrow is nice, but when my $100 becomes $75 tomorrow it's not. US currency doesn't have many wild rides.
That's an advantage of fiat currency. You can control volatility. However it's also bit of a liability as the printing presses only run one way.
I'm not sure that's accurate. While certainly central banks can helicopter drop, most of the inflation/deflation is based on interest rates which mostly tied to market forces and not governments. It's been 40 years since we've seen real inflation and in fact deflation has been the bigger problem. Not that it couldn't happen again, but when comparing volatility, I don't think that risk is in the same ball park as crypto.
The Fed sets the interest rates. They may be reacting to market forces but they make the interpretation and decision.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by noxiousdog »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:08 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:58 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:29 am
Paingod wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:21 am
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:12 amIt is not what gives that currency intrinsic value.
I've long thought that the only reason US currency has any value is simply because people believe it does, and that belief is reinforced consistently by "markets" and "policy" - but the paper itself? Worthless. I've appreciated politicians efforts in the past to tear the US away from the Federal Reserve, though, as it's not actually part of the government yet manages to control the country's money.

I'd be more into crypto-currencies if they weren't volatile. Thinking that my $100 today might be $250 tomorrow is nice, but when my $100 becomes $75 tomorrow it's not. US currency doesn't have many wild rides.
That's an advantage of fiat currency. You can control volatility. However it's also bit of a liability as the printing presses only run one way.
I'm not sure that's accurate. While certainly central banks can helicopter drop, most of the inflation/deflation is based on interest rates which mostly tied to market forces and not governments. It's been 40 years since we've seen real inflation and in fact deflation has been the bigger problem. Not that it couldn't happen again, but when comparing volatility, I don't think that risk is in the same ball park as crypto.
The Fed sets the interest rates. They may be reacting to market forces but they make the interpretation and decision.
The Fed sets overnight rates.

The public sets the interest rates based on federal government bond auctions. Then there's all the money supply from common bank loans.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LawBeefaroni »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:39 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:08 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:58 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:29 am
Paingod wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:21 am
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:12 amIt is not what gives that currency intrinsic value.
I've long thought that the only reason US currency has any value is simply because people believe it does, and that belief is reinforced consistently by "markets" and "policy" - but the paper itself? Worthless. I've appreciated politicians efforts in the past to tear the US away from the Federal Reserve, though, as it's not actually part of the government yet manages to control the country's money.

I'd be more into crypto-currencies if they weren't volatile. Thinking that my $100 today might be $250 tomorrow is nice, but when my $100 becomes $75 tomorrow it's not. US currency doesn't have many wild rides.
That's an advantage of fiat currency. You can control volatility. However it's also bit of a liability as the printing presses only run one way.
I'm not sure that's accurate. While certainly central banks can helicopter drop, most of the inflation/deflation is based on interest rates which mostly tied to market forces and not governments. It's been 40 years since we've seen real inflation and in fact deflation has been the bigger problem. Not that it couldn't happen again, but when comparing volatility, I don't think that risk is in the same ball park as crypto.
The Fed sets the interest rates. They may be reacting to market forces but they make the interpretation and decision.
The Fed sets overnight rates.

The public sets the interest rates based on federal government bond auctions. Then there's all the money supply from common bank loans.
Those "public" rates are all keyed off the fed funds rate (set by the Fed), reserve requirements (set by the Fed) and the FOMC (a Fed committee). The purpose of all that is to steer "public rates". And it works.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by RunningMn9 »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:38 pmThey backed only by the fact that people are willing to trade goods or services for them. Much like BTC or cases of beer.
In fairness, you aren't going to convince me to give you $43,000 for a $1 either, in the hopes that tomorrow I can convince someone to give me more than $43,000.

That said, the US Dollar is backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. That doesn't mean that it's backed by some amount of a precious metal. It means that the United States government has said that the US Dollar is legal tender and is a valid unit of exchange. $1 is worth $1. It's not worth $0.004 today, and $1,400.58 tomorrow. It's value doesn't change in the middle of a transaction (which takes progressively longer to complete). I can go to a store and pay $1.99 for a loaf of bread. I won't get home to find out that I actually spend $176.83 on a loaf of bread because Elon Musk tweeted "dogecoin".

There's nothing and then there's nothing. And they aren't the same nothing.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Carpet_pissr »

RunningMn9 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:31 pmThere's nothing and then there's nothing. And they aren't the same nothing.
https://youtu.be/8HqyEHqEYho?t=13
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LawBeefaroni »

RunningMn9 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:31 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:38 pmThey backed only by the fact that people are willing to trade goods or services for them. Much like BTC or cases of beer.
In fairness, you aren't going to convince me to give you $43,000 for a $1 either, in the hopes that tomorrow I can convince someone to give me more than $43,000.

That said, the US Dollar is backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. That doesn't mean that it's backed by some amount of a precious metal. It means that the United States government has said that the US Dollar is legal tender and is a valid unit of exchange. $1 is worth $1. It's not worth $0.004 today, and $1,400.58 tomorrow. It's value doesn't change in the middle of a transaction (which takes progressively longer to complete). I can go to a store and pay $1.99 for a loaf of bread. I won't get home to find out that I actually spend $176.83 on a loaf of bread because Elon Musk tweeted "dogecoin".

There's nothing and then there's nothing. And they aren't the same nothing.
The bottom line is that if someone takes "profit off the table" they convert to USD. So yeah, USD is king. Because the USD is the official currency of a $22T GDP protected by the world's largest, most advanced military. It is too big to fail so everyone just accepts it.

Also, what does "full faith and credit of the United States" actually mean? What kind of credit would someone have if they had a $100K income, $900K in debt, and $250K in annual expenses?
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by noxiousdog »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:30 pm Those "public" rates are all keyed off the fed funds rate (set by the Fed), reserve requirements (set by the Fed) and the FOMC (a Fed committee). The purpose of all that is to steer "public rates". And it works.
I disagree. There's no way people are deciding to buy/not buy billions of US Ten Year notes based solely off the overnight rate. I'll grant you the reserve requirements influence money supply heavily, but at the same time the Fed isn't the US government.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by noxiousdog »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:52 pm Also, what does "full faith and credit of the United States" actually mean? What kind of credit would someone have if they had a $100K income, $900K in debt, and $250K in annual expenses?
It means that the Unites States has rules, regulations, and policy to set a stable money supply such that inflation remains relatively stable. And it's done a really good job of it.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Little Raven »

Huh. Maybe we should do one of these every 5 years or so.
The coronavirus pandemic changed the way U.S. consumers use credit, as lower interest rates spurred a boom in home buying and refinancing and virus-related shutdowns led to a drop in credit card use and an increase in paying off debt, according to a report released on Wednesday by the New York Federal Reserve.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Congressional investigation into the GME rise and fall five minutes at a time has been on all afternoon. None of it has meant anything until the last few Q&As. Now it's becoming clear that this investigation is a proxy for the debate on taxing trades and the deposed are there bounce debate tactics.

Also Tenev is terrible spokesperson for his company. He comes across as bad liar being cornered. It doesn't matter what he's talking about. I don't imagine he wanted to be the voice of his company. (I feel for him in that regard. I'd hate to be interrogated much less for month on end and I could never as a matter of fact recall much of anything. That said I don't trust him. :oops: )
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Waters cut off the question to Plotkin about locates. Wouldn't want an answer to the most relevant question of the day. Nope.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LordMortis »

I liked the Robinhood gamification questions I didn't get the full answer but again Vlad came off of a liar, whether he was lying about robinhood being a buy and hold platform or not, which also seems to go against the problem of not being able meet short term movements in 13 stock requirements.

(and while liked the questions, I don't know that they are directly related to the rise and fall GME, other than being related to retail investor euphoria getting them in trouble)
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

Casten's question about conflict of interest was really interesting. I'd really like to hear someone dig into that.
LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:14 pm Waters cut off the question to Plotkin about locates. Wouldn't want an answer to the most relevant question of the day. Nope.
This 5 minute question format is pretty frustrating. Honestly I learned next to nothing actually useful from this.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Jaymon »

Little Raven wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:59 am Huh. Maybe we should do one of these every 5 years or so.
The coronavirus pandemic changed the way U.S. consumers use credit, as lower interest rates spurred a boom in home buying and refinancing and virus-related shutdowns led to a drop in credit card use and an increase in paying off debt, according to a report released on Wednesday by the New York Federal Reserve.
oo, me too. I refinanced during the pandemic, and it worked out fantastic.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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I took five years off the term of my mortgage in November.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Out of touch elitists

Roger Marshall's argument for not raising the minimum wage is that he had a minimum wage job and it paid for his entire college tuition.

When he graduated from Kansas State University, tuition was $898/year. It is now $10,000/year. The minimum wage then was $3.35. It's now $7.25
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Re: The Viral Economy

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I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time...
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by RunningMn9 »

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:15 pmWhen he graduated from Kansas State University, tuition was $898/year. It is now $10,000/year. The minimum wage then was $3.35. It's now $7.25
For anyone else wondering, that ratios out to needing to make $37.31 per hour now against that tuition. Or alternatively, could that smarmy elitist asshole have paid his tuition on a minimum wage job that paid $0.65 per hour.

Edit to add:
Another way to look at it, he had to work 268 hours per year to earn enough to pay that tuition (if he kept all $3.35 per hour). Someone now has to work 1379 minimum wage hours to earn enough to pay that tuition (again, assuming they didn't have to pay any taxes or anything).

That's 5 hours per week at minimum wage for this smarmy shitbag vs. 27 hours per week for a similar kid today. Fuck off smarmy eliltist asshole.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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RunningMn9 wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:46 pmThat's 5 hours per week at minimum wage for this smarmy shitbag vs. 27 hours per week for a similar kid today. Fuck off smarmy eliltist asshole.
That's the big disconnect between 'Boomers and Millenials in terms of finance, I think. For anyone over 55, life was pretty damn easy financially and you could go far with shit wages. If you're over 65, you probably got a house for tens of thousands of dollars - and then sold it for over $300,000.

They think and legislate from a position of remembering how easy and cheap everything was, so screw all these greedy kids and their overpriced lattes.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

Paingod wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:39 pm
RunningMn9 wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:46 pmThat's 5 hours per week at minimum wage for this smarmy shitbag vs. 27 hours per week for a similar kid today. Fuck off smarmy eliltist asshole.
That's the big disconnect between 'Boomers and Millenials in terms of finance, I think. For anyone over 55, life was pretty damn easy financially and you could go far with shit wages. If you're over 65, you probably got a house for tens of thousands of dollars - and then sold it for over $300,000.

They think and legislate from a position of remembering how easy and cheap everything was, so screw all these greedy kids and their overpriced lattes.
That gap is definitely a part of the story. I think another factor in there is that "boomers" think they'd have to give something up and they're starting to realize many of them didn't save enough.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Re: The Viral Economy

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It's likely another data point, but I have more than one extended family members squarely in the Boomer demographic that are *irate* over the idea of student loan debt forgiveness. It's apparently a hard line they will not accept under any conditions.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Got median numbers? I think they are more representative, statistically.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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:shock:

Damn academia!
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Re: The Viral Economy

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Smoove_B wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:00 pm It's likely another data point, but I have more than one extended family members squarely in the Boomer demographic that are *irate* over the idea of student loan debt forgiveness. It's apparently a hard line they will not accept under any conditions.
I'm an Xer and it's a still a hard sell for me, not because I don't believe college costs are puppies but rather because believe entering into puppies college costs was a decision made often by people getting "the college experience" as promoted by universities. It's probably because I was denied the college experience as I worked my way through college. It may be harder to afford college now and in the aught's but there was still a decision to enter that hardship the way they did. The pill gets more and more bitter as time goes on... Financial aid? Nope. Couldn't get it. Clinton era and after tax breaks. Nope. After my time. Reduced interest rates? Nope. Then comes the housing bubble. Underwater mortgage aid? Nope. Reduced interest rate? Nope. Forgiveness for walking away (I refuse to walk and bit the bullet). First time buyer's incentive. Already have a house I can't catch breaks for.

It's not a line in the sand but it's not something I easily move on from. Especially as infrastructure needs to be rebuilt everywhere. There are ways to put an education on the table beyond "free" college.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

Hah. Isgrimnur got ahead of me there. I was going to say the averages are all distorted. :)

The average net worth of a boomer is $1.2M but it has a hell of a tail much like average retirement savings. Many boomers are 'overstaying' in the workforce and are putting more downward pressure on the youngsters because of this.

Edit: Updated w/ net worth - if you compare it to the retirement savings I'd take a solid guess and say the sizable gap in net worth is reflected for the vast majority in the value of their primary residence.

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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Wow, I hope that retirement savings data is wrong (or misleading, or some variable/definition that skews it low). I guess it is possible that a lot of people's retirements are not in a typical vehicle like an IRA, but their house (they retire, sell house they raised kids in, and cash out that home equity)

I think it's safe to say you should NOT be comparing against these numbers, but use something more concrete to figure out if you are "on track" or not. Seriously though, something seems very off with those numbers. Can we (*cough*) check against a different source? :D
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:59 pmWow, I hope that retirement savings data is wrong
My mother is 67 and I believe her retirement plan is to continue to work until she can't anymore and then from there it's my sister who already lives with her and is on permanent disability. I worry that around the time she may need more care we'll be hip-deep in paying for the kids' extended college stays and I don't want to be asked to choose between my own retirement, my kid's future, and my mother's comfort.

My wife's parents (already retired) ended their careers with *cough* adequate *cough* funds for whatever retirement they'd like, be it global travel or running a nice bed and breakfast.

Two very different ends of the spectrum. I suspect the data is accurate. People have long stated that not enough people plan for retirement well enough to enjoy it. It's also hard to plan for retirement when you start in a position of lower income with higher expenses just to get by. I've done the penny-pinching miser thing before because I was so poor that groceries had to be properly rationed and peanut butter was sometimes a luxury. It never stopped the rent from coming due or gas prices from kicking me so I could get to work. Retirement planning was a distant priority, somewhere well behind surviving.
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