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Police Reform in America

For discussion of religion and politics

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Grifman
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Police Reform in America

Post by Grifman »

Given the topic, I thought it would be good to have a separate thread to discuss this and analyze various proposals. I'll start off with a link to the Democratic and Republican proposals:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpos ... story.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpos ... story.html
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton

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Grifman
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Grifman »

Here is an excellent round table with a number of suggestions about what to do. I think there are some interesting perspective here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpos ... story.html
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by hitbyambulance »

Seattle Police Chief Carmen Best is going to do 'something':

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... efore.html

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Grifman
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Grifman »

NJ to publish list of disciplined officers:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/15/us/nj-di ... index.html

And Connecticut banned chokeholds:

https://www.courant.com/breaking-news/h ... story.html

As if that wasn't strong enough, the governor banned them too.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton

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LordMortis
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LordMortis »

It's been mentioned here many times since 2014 (or earlier?) but Camden, NJ is a shining example of what can be done or at the very least examined for positive change roadmaps.

https://www.google.com/search?q=camden+police+reform

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Grifman
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Grifman »

So police in Atlanta are calling in sick to protest the charges against a fellow officer:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/us/raysh ... index.html

I say fire them all.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Grifman wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:57 am
So police in Atlanta are calling in sick to protest the charges against a fellow officer:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/us/raysh ... index.html

I say fire them all.
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Punisher
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Punisher »

LordMortis wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:09 am
It's been mentioned here many times since 2014 (or earlier?) but Camden, NJ is a shining example of what can be done or at the very least examined for positive change roadmaps.

https://www.google.com/search?q=camden+police+reform
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... ce-reform/

This seems to explain that it isnt as cut and dried as many people are making it out to be.
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LordMortis
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LordMortis »

Punisher wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:05 pm
LordMortis wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:09 am
It's been mentioned here many times since 2014 (or earlier?) but Camden, NJ is a shining example of what can be done or at the very least examined for positive change roadmaps.

https://www.google.com/search?q=camden+police+reform
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... ce-reform/

This seems to explain that it isnt as cut and dried as many people are making it out to be.
Paywalled. I don't know what people make it out to be.

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Punisher
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Punisher »

LordMortis wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:14 pm
Punisher wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:05 pm
LordMortis wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:09 am
It's been mentioned here many times since 2014 (or earlier?) but Camden, NJ is a shining example of what can be done or at the very least examined for positive change roadmaps.

https://www.google.com/search?q=camden+police+reform
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... ce-reform/

This seems to explain that it isnt as cut and dried as many people are making it out to be.
Paywalled. I don't know what people make it out to be.
Odd. I definitely don't pay for that and I have my ad blocker on
TLDR from what I could gather is that things actually got worse when they switched over and their main intent was to kill the police union so that they could hire more, less expensive new LEO's and do more policing, not less. They basically disbanded the city police, created a new "county" police force (That their city was the only member of) and things got worse for a long while until there were policy changes...It looks like less of disbanding police for the good of the community and more so they could get cheaper labor without the police union involved.
They leaned in heavily on the Broken Windows theory and the community response was worse than before. There were a LOT more arrests.
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LordMortis
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LordMortis »

Punisher wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:29 pm
Odd. I definitely don't pay for that and I have my ad blocker on
TLDR from what I could gather is that things actually got worse when they switched over and their main intent was to kill the police union so that they could hire more, less expensive new LEO's and do more policing, not less. They basically disbanded the city police, created a new "county" police force (That their city was the only member of) and things got worse for a long while until there were policy changes...It looks like less of disbanding police for the good of the community and more so they could get cheaper labor without the police union involved.
They leaned in heavily on the Broken Windows theory and the community response was worse than before. There were a LOT more arrests.
You get so many views a month before you are blocked.


That is not the history I used to keep up with.


Circa 2016
LordMortis wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:12 pm
Smutly wrote:We need a discussion about the ongoing radicalization of blacks in this country by Nation of Islam, Black Lives Matter, The New Black Panthers, "ministers" like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Reverend Wright and many others out there that are little more than self-proclaimed Imams preaching the hate against Whitey like the Muslims preach hate against the Jews.
Aye, as well as the onging radicalization of what is nothing different that rebranded neonazi separatists. I think that discussion is a discussion that needs to be had by starting with looking at the poor and their prospects and their desperation.

This is terrorism and deserves the strongest possible response from Federal law enforcement, not more lectures on how the cops brought it on themselves from the Preezy.
Concurred, but the discussion still needs to happen.

....

Also in spite of what seems like increased radicalization of the working (and non work poor) there was an interesting piece on the measurables around rebuilding Camden, NJ's PD. I think it's been a fascinating journey in to what it means to be police all around and their relationships with the communities they serve.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/camden-new- ... hal-force/

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/nyreg ... force.html

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20151 ... _them.html
Isgrimnur wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:25 am
What happened, Camden?

Image

Daily Mail
St Louis has topped the FBI's list of most dangerous cities across the Unites States.

More than 88 violent crimes took place for every 10,000 residents in the Missouri city during the first half of 2015 - compared to an average rate of 36.6 across the US in 2014, FBI data reveals.
Enlarge Image

I was later under the impression that the whole thing failed because the less expensive, community focused, trained in de-escalation force were poached for better pay in neighboring areas, killing the cost savings. I was surprised to find out they kept with it all these years later.

This part of why I wish I could read the WaPo story. Your link seems to say that the stuff I used to keep up with was all wrong.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Max Peck »

LordMortis wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:46 pm
You get so many views a month before you are blocked.
Or you run a script blocker and never even realize that they have a paywall until people mention it. :whistle:
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Blackhawk »

Or just run Bypass Paywalls and never see one again.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by ImLawBoy »

Maybe this talk should be in the death of the 4th estate thread. ;)
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Smoove_B
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Smoove_B »

Colorado ends qualified immunity:


@GovofCO has signed #SB217 into law. Colorado becomes one of the first states in the country to END qualified immunity as part of this historic comprehensive police accountability bill.
Seems like...a really big deal.

EDIT: Corrected
Last edited by Smoove_B on Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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El Guapo
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by El Guapo »

Smoove_B wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:25 pm
Colorado ends qualified immunity via governor's executive order:


@GovofCO has signed #SB217 into law. Colorado becomes one of the first states in the country to END qualified immunity as part of this historic comprehensive police accountability bill.
Seems like...a really big deal.
FWIW that was via legislation (that the governor signed), not via executive order. Which is good, as it makes it more durable.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Alefroth »

ImLawBoy wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:56 am
Maybe this talk should be in the death of the 4th estate thread. ;)
:clap:

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Welcome to stay fetal!
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

There isn't enough context in just this clip but the implication is the police are rolling around in the middle of the night blaring sirens in Harlem. The person who posted it claims 3 AM. If true, WTF is going on with that department?


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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

malchior wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:36 am
There isn't enough context in just this clip but the implication is the police are rolling around in the middle of the night blaring sirens in Harlem. The person who posted it claims 3 AM. If true, WTF is going on with that department?

Tweet is gone so guessing something wasn't right there.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

That's weird - here is the source video. The posted Tweet was just a reporter re-tweeting it.


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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

That is weird. All I can't think of, other then them being dicks, is either is a gratitude parade for 3rd shifters at a hospital (ill-advised to do it at 3am but we had a few at ours during day and early evening) or a show of force to stop the fireworks.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Holman »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:07 pm
That is weird. All I can't think of, other then them being dicks, is either is a gratitude parade for 3rd shifters at a hospital (ill-advised to do it at 3am but we had a few at ours during day and early evening) or a show of force to stop the fireworks.
I'm guessing it's something more dickish.

Would any community welcome a loud parade at 3 a.m.?
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

The off-duty cop in the video below was just suspended due to code of conduct issues. Could you imagine incidents like this actually going this way even a couple months ago? It does feel like at least for now bad behavior is starting to have consequences.

Note: Tweet video link for ease of viewing - assuming it doesn't get deleted for weird reasons. It is also embedded in the news article below.



Off-duty cop suspended in road rage incident
A St. Joseph, Missouri police officer who engaged in a verbal altercation with a man who appeared compliant has been placed on administrative duty.

Video of the incident was posted on the social media website TikTok over the weekend.

The video shows the off-duty officer — wearing a blue and white “Trump 2020” hat, a tank top with the name “Harrison” on the back and shorts — in an expletive-laden tirade following a car accident.

The officer was identified by the St. Joseph Police Department as Officer Brandon Harrison, who has been with the department since Jan. 7, 2019.

The video shows a man attempting to speak to a uniformed officer who had arrived at the scene.

Harrison steps towards the man and orders him to sit on the ground. The man asks Harrison to “please get out of my face.”

Harrison tells the man, “I’m not working right now, I’m on vacation. I will f--- you up.”

The uniformed officer then tells the man to follow Harrison’s instructions and the man sits down.

In the video, Harrison accuses the man of lying about what happened during the car accident. No one appeared injured and in a second clip posted by the same TikTok user, Harrison said damage to his truck had been minimal.

Capt. Jeff Wilson said the department had reviewed portions of the video. Harrison has been removed from police duties and placed on administrative duty while the incident is under investigation.

“Unbecoming conduct on the part of police officers adversely affects the operations of the Department and ultimately destroys public confidence in it,” Wilson said in an email.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Chicago super in the hotseat.
Fourteen people were killed and at least 90 others were wounded in citywide gun violence over Father’s Day weekend, marking the most shootings in a single weekend this year.

...

“I feel sad and hurt,” she said. “I feel powerless, and I feel there should be more police on the street.”

...

“I’ve heard you say Black lives matter. I need you to show that Black lives matter,” said Ford. “Because right now, we’re hurting right here on the West Side of Chicago. And there’s no need to make comparisons, but if a white baby was killed, it would be different.”
The this is mostly gang turf shit and reprisals.

You can add at least one shooting more to the total. A coworker of had someone breaking into cars in her condo parking lot over the weekend and a fellow tenant went out to scare them off and they shot at him. No one was hit so it doesn't make the official shooting count.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by stimpy »

Where and when is the march and protest over this?
It makes my dookie twinkle.

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Unagi
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Unagi »

stimpy wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:46 pm
Where and when is the march and protest over this?
I'm confused (or you are) - who (what body) would one protest against here?

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by stimpy »

Unagi wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:51 pm
stimpy wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:46 pm
Where and when is the march and protest over this?
I'm confused (or you are) - who (what body) would one protest against here?
The police, government, community leaders.
You know, all of those responsible for the endless violence in the cities neighborhoods.
They are obviously not doing their jobs. Where is the outcry?
It makes my dookie twinkle.

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Unagi
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Unagi »

Is this seriously how you compose thoughts in your head?

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by stimpy »

Unagi wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:34 pm
Is this seriously how you compose thoughts in your head?
14 people killed and 90 wounded over 1 weekend.
What should my thoughts about that be?
It makes my dookie twinkle.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Unagi »

Ohhh I don’t imagine you give a shit about any of them, so I’m not about to say how you should think. You don’t actually give a shit about that either.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by stimpy »

Unagi wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:11 pm
Ohhh I don’t imagine you give a shit about any of them, so I’m not about to say how you should think. You don’t actually give a shit about that either.
Another guy who passes judgement on what they think others beliefs are, yet refuses to try and explain or back up what makes them think that.
Deflect and avoid.
Again......please, please, please show me one, just one comment I've ever made that leads you to believe that I don't "give a shit about any of ……...them). Maybe we should explore what you mean by "them"?
Are you and Alefroth related?
It makes my dookie twinkle.

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Unagi
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Unagi »

The people you mentioned are ‘them’

And wow. Talk about deflecting.

You turn this thread into: ‘Why don’t you guys protest the violence in the city too’.

I’m sure you are someone who would interrupt MLK with, “I had a dream last night too!”

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Blackhawk »

Don't harsh his meltdown.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by stimpy »

Unagi wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:43 pm
The people you mentioned are ‘them’

And wow. Talk about deflecting.

You turn this thread into: ‘Why don’t you guys protest the violence in the city too’.

I’m sure you are someone who would interrupt MLK with, “I had a dream last night too!”
Are you saying that police reform is not necessary to stem the flow of violence in the city?
It makes my dookie twinkle.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Combustible Lemur »

stimpy wrote:
Unagi wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:43 pm
The people you mentioned are ‘them’

And wow. Talk about deflecting.

You turn this thread into: ‘Why don’t you guys protest the violence in the city too’.

I’m sure you are someone who would interrupt MLK with, “I had a dream last night too!”
Are you saying that police reform is not necessary to stem the flow of violence in the city?
Again with your black and white trolling absolutism.

The last month of protests IS the protest for Chicago. Except that the country doesn't give a fuck unless it's shoved in their face.
Outreach, protests meetings, happen all the time. Then suburban voters buy police departments APC'S to roll into black neighborhoods, frisk, and or arrest everyone because we all know a good beating will fix crime. We defund fund welfare, and public Healthcare. We create food deserts, red lining neighborhoods, sub prime loans, gerrymandered districts, close polling stations, create prison pipelines. But oh shit none of that exists until someone's IPhone records a cop murdering someone for 9 minutes over and over and over again.
Fuck your self righteous bullshit.
Yes we should do more. I worked a decade in an inner city school tryjng to help. What the fuck do you do to help. Vote republican? I lived in the neighborhood where white people don't go and talk shit about the good people who live there. My kids have been murdered across the street from one of those schools. Where making it pro in sports is one of the few ways kids get Out. Kids that you think should stand for their morals and quit on everyone who relies on them so you don't have to watch a man kneel on your sports channel in order to get people like you to pay attention to the fact that people who look like me have been reinforcing a social structure through apathy and misperception that gets them killed on the street for being black. Where kids are forced at the age of ten to do a cost benefit analysis if it's in their best interest to start slinging dope, and carrying a gun because their prospects appear so shitty.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by stimpy »

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:18 am
stimpy wrote:
Unagi wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:43 pm
The people you mentioned are ‘them’

And wow. Talk about deflecting.

You turn this thread into: ‘Why don’t you guys protest the violence in the city too’.

I’m sure you are someone who would interrupt MLK with, “I had a dream last night too!”
Are you saying that police reform is not necessary to stem the flow of violence in the city?
Again with your black and white trolling absolutism.

The last month of protests IS the protest for Chicago. Except that the country doesn't give a fuck unless it's shoved in their face.
Outreach, protests meetings, happen all the time. Then suburban voters buy police departments APC'S to roll into black neighborhoods, frisk, and or arrest everyone because we all know a good beating will fix crime. We defund fund welfare, and public Healthcare. We create food deserts, red lining neighborhoods, sub prime loans, gerrymandered districts, close polling stations, create prison pipelines. But oh shit none of that exists until someone's IPhone records a cop murdering someone for 9 minutes over and over and over again.
Fuck your self righteous bullshit.
Yes we should do more. I worked a decade in an inner city school tryjng to help. What the fuck do you do to help. Vote republican? I lived in the neighborhood where white people don't go and talk shit about the good people who live there. My kids have been murdered across the street from one of those schools. Where making it pro in sports is one of the few ways kids get Out. Kids that you think should stand for their morals and quit on everyone who relies on them so you don't have to watch a man kneel on your sports channel in order to get people like you to pay attention to the fact that people who look like me have been reinforcing a social structure through apathy and misperception that gets them killed on the street for being black. Where kids are forced at the age of ten to do a cost benefit analysis if it's in their best interest to start slinging dope, and carrying a gun because their prospects appear so shitty.

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A lot of words but no answers.
You have no fucking clue who I am or what I stand for.
All because I don't fall in line with your way of thinking of how I should act or feel or post doesn't mean you know me.
Fuck MY self righteous bullshit?
No.....fuck yours.

I haven't passed judgement on any of you.
Say what you want. Do what you want. Feel what you want.
I've asked questions and because some of you don't like the questions or have answers, I've have been portrayed as a Trump loving racist.
Yet I'm self righteous? Give me a fucking break. Bunch of fucking hypocrites.
It makes my dookie twinkle.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by stimpy »

Seriously, who takes a question such as "Are you saying that police reform is not necessary to stem the flow of violence in the city?" and interprets that as "black and white trolling absolutism"?
What the fuck is wrong with you?
It makes my dookie twinkle.

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Unagi
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Unagi »

Oh, we have a few clues.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by stimpy »

Unagi wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:15 am
Oh, we have a few clues.
Yeah....a regular bunch of Sherlock Gnomes around here.
It makes my dookie twinkle.

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