Police Reform in America

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Unagi
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Re: Police Reform in America

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LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:31 pm Oakland has volunteered to beta:
wrote:OAKLAND, Calif. (BCN) – Oakland Police Chief LeRonne Armstrong on Monday lamented city officials’ recent decision to redirect roughly $18 million in proposed police spending over two years, which Armstrong argued will hamstring a police force that is already stretched too thin.

“We find ourselves in a crisis from this decision. We are reeling from a weekend of violence in Oakland. Four homicides over a three-day period happened in Oakland over the weekend, which brought us to 65 homicides for the year. A 90% increase compared to last year.”

In a briefing Monday morning, Armstrong made the case that the change in funding, and reduced ability to hire new officers as a result, would prevent Oakland police from adequately completing even day-to-day tasks like traffic enforcement and responding to emergency calls.



Meanwhile here, CPD is seeing record high retirements and record low recruits. Lt's and commanders are leaving, causing leadership gaps. In addition, suburbs are paying officers a $20K bonus on top of higher salaries to move. Morale is in the basement. And this weekend saw 80 shot, 8 fatally. At least 2 "mass shootings" and several multi-victim shooting. That brings the YTD total to 1,910.



My gut feeling is: so what. we don't need more of the same kind of cops that are no longer signing up, or are retiring.

I could be 180 degrees off here, and it's all the good recruits and good 'old blood' that we are going to be without, but I'd like to think that this is a gap - that may be filled eventually by a slightly different type of 'cop'.

I hazard to guess I'm being hopeful and this is totally wrong.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:39 pmMy gut feeling is: so what. we don't need more of the same kind of cops that are no longer signing up, or are retiring.
Possible ramifications.
A generation ago, Michael Dukakis saw his chances of winning the presidency crushed after Republicans cast him as soft on crime.

Now he is warning his party not to make the same mistake.

The "defund the police" movement is “nuts,” Dukakis, the Democratic presidential nominee in 1988, told this column.

“I’m saying to myself, my God, what the hell is going on here?” Dukakis added during a 40-minute phone interview from his home in Brookline, Mass., late last week.

“On one hand, you have folks screaming and yelling about getting rid of policing, which makes no sense at all. And then on the other hand, you have some people totally misinterpreting what community policing is, just as we were really making huge progress,” he said.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:39 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:31 pm Oakland has volunteered to beta:
wrote:OAKLAND, Calif. (BCN) – Oakland Police Chief LeRonne Armstrong on Monday lamented city officials’ recent decision to redirect roughly $18 million in proposed police spending over two years, which Armstrong argued will hamstring a police force that is already stretched too thin.

“We find ourselves in a crisis from this decision. We are reeling from a weekend of violence in Oakland. Four homicides over a three-day period happened in Oakland over the weekend, which brought us to 65 homicides for the year. A 90% increase compared to last year.”

In a briefing Monday morning, Armstrong made the case that the change in funding, and reduced ability to hire new officers as a result, would prevent Oakland police from adequately completing even day-to-day tasks like traffic enforcement and responding to emergency calls.



Meanwhile here, CPD is seeing record high retirements and record low recruits. Lt's and commanders are leaving, causing leadership gaps. In addition, suburbs are paying officers a $20K bonus on top of higher salaries to move. Morale is in the basement. And this weekend saw 80 shot, 8 fatally. At least 2 "mass shootings" and several multi-victim shooting. That brings the YTD total to 1,910.



My gut feeling is: so what. we don't need more of the same kind of cops that are no longer signing up, or are retiring.

I could be 180 degrees off here, and it's all the good recruits and good 'old blood' that we are going to be without, but I'd like to think that this is a gap - that may be filled eventually by a slightly different type of 'cop'.

I hazard to guess I'm being hopeful and this is totally wrong.
Who in the hell is going to want those jobs?
Chicago is getting closer and closer to the Wild West everyday.
And we havent even hit the 4th of July weekend yet.......oy vey.......
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:39 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:31 pm Oakland has volunteered to beta:
wrote:OAKLAND, Calif. (BCN) – Oakland Police Chief LeRonne Armstrong on Monday lamented city officials’ recent decision to redirect roughly $18 million in proposed police spending over two years, which Armstrong argued will hamstring a police force that is already stretched too thin.

“We find ourselves in a crisis from this decision. We are reeling from a weekend of violence in Oakland. Four homicides over a three-day period happened in Oakland over the weekend, which brought us to 65 homicides for the year. A 90% increase compared to last year.”

In a briefing Monday morning, Armstrong made the case that the change in funding, and reduced ability to hire new officers as a result, would prevent Oakland police from adequately completing even day-to-day tasks like traffic enforcement and responding to emergency calls.



Meanwhile here, CPD is seeing record high retirements and record low recruits. Lt's and commanders are leaving, causing leadership gaps. In addition, suburbs are paying officers a $20K bonus on top of higher salaries to move. Morale is in the basement. And this weekend saw 80 shot, 8 fatally. At least 2 "mass shootings" and several multi-victim shooting. That brings the YTD total to 1,910.



My gut feeling is: so what. we don't need more of the same kind of cops that are no longer signing up, or are retiring.

I could be 180 degrees off here, and it's all the good recruits and good 'old blood' that we are going to be without, but I'd like to think that this is a gap - that may be filled eventually by a slightly different type of 'cop'.

I hazard to guess I'm being hopeful and this is totally wrong.
They were getting more ex-military, which I think is problematic, but this year it's almost none of anything. Like I was told 40 newbies vs ~500 retired so far.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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stimpy wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:56 pm Who in the hell is going to want those jobs?
I would hope they were filled by young thoughtful people that wanted to help the community.
stimpy wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:56 pm Chicago is getting closer and closer to the Wild West everyday.
not really. It has sucked in the manner that it does now for quite some time. And CPD wasn't/isn't really turning anything around.
stimpy wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:56 pm And we havent even hit the 4th of July weekend yet...
So, clearly you feel that the CPD is effective at keeping Chicago's gun homicides from escalating. Can I get you on the record for feeling that's the case?
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:08 pm So, clearly you feel that the CPD is effective at keeping Chicago's gun homicides from escalating. Can I get you on the record for feeling that's the case?
How in the world do you get that from what I wrote about it not even being the 4th of July weekend yet? Lol....unreal.....
Clearly the CPD is as effective as those in City Hall and the court systems will allow them to be, which isnt very effective at all.
When the Mayor is more worried about building parks, arguing with reporters and renaming streets than she is about actually....you know....doing SOMETHING to curb the rising tide of violence that she ran her whole campaign on, this is the result.

Hoping that a group of "young, thoughtful" people is going to swoop in and change things is a pipe dream.
You'd better have something else in mind to solve this problem, cause that aint it.
And saying it's sucks now like it has for so long is a typical shrug the shoulders attitude too many people seem to have.
Violence in the city is on pace to be the highest this year in decades and we're only half way thru the year.

Saying stuff like, eh......no worse than usual is a big part of the problem and why nothing changes.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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stimpy wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:48 pm
Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:08 pm So, clearly you feel that the CPD is effective at keeping Chicago's gun homicides from escalating. Can I get you on the record for feeling that's the case?
How in the world do you get that from what I wrote about it not even being the 4th of July weekend yet? Lol....unreal.....
Uhhh... Because you mentioned the 4th of July (a hot spot of gun homicides for Chicago) in a conversation, while lamenting about less of the current CPD, who were previously the only people willing 'to do the job'... ?


Do you follow your own posts?
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:08 pmI would hope they were filled by young thoughtful people that wanted to help the community.
I cannot imagine any sane person wanting to be a cop right now.

I mean, ACAB. Whether they want to be or not.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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stimpy wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:48 pm Hoping that a group of "young, thoughtful" people is going to swoop in and change things is a pipe dream.
You'd better have something else in mind to solve this problem, cause that aint it.
Actually, that's likely about all there is... If they are just going to retire (but thoughtful) we won't gain a lot from them - and in my terminology, thoughtful is just the antynom for 'thoughtless / heartless'. I don't think that's too high a bar to set, nor hopelessly idealistic.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:59 pm
stimpy wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:48 pm
Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:08 pm So, clearly you feel that the CPD is effective at keeping Chicago's gun homicides from escalating. Can I get you on the record for feeling that's the case?
How in the world do you get that from what I wrote about it not even being the 4th of July weekend yet? Lol....unreal.....
Uhhh... Because you mentioned the 4th of July (a hot spot of gun homicides for Chicago) in a conversation, while lamenting about less of the current CPD, who were previously the only people willing 'to do the job'... ?


Do you follow your own posts?
Let me spell it out for ya.
Violence has been up so far this year. It's June 28th.
The 4th of July weekend usually sees a surge in violence.
Thus, me saying it's becoming like the Wild West and we havent even hit the July 4th weekend.

My comment about who would want to be a police officer in Chicago these days ties into the fact that it is becoming a more hostile and thankless job. Cops are bailing and very few people are stepping up. Fact.
Offices and officials that once had their back, within legal standards, seem to no longer do so.
Society is at total odds with the cops. There seems to be very little good faith on both sides.
It's a mess.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Little Raven wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:01 pm
Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:08 pmI would hope they were filled by young thoughtful people that wanted to help the community.
I cannot imagine any sane person wanting to be a cop right now.

I mean, ACAB. Whether they want to be or not.
Nor I, but that's mostly because we both (I assume) see the institution as screwed... There are (young and sane) people out there, that do have the gumption to take that on... I believe - perhaps foolishly...
Last edited by Unagi on Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Little Raven wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:01 pm
Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:08 pmI would hope they were filled by young thoughtful people that wanted to help the community.
I cannot imagine any sane person wanting to be a cop right now.

I mean, ACAB. Whether they want to be or not.
What is ACAB?
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Re: Police Reform in America

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stimpy wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:10 pm
Little Raven wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:01 pm
Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:08 pmI would hope they were filled by young thoughtful people that wanted to help the community.
I cannot imagine any sane person wanting to be a cop right now.

I mean, ACAB. Whether they want to be or not.
What is ACAB?
I had to look it up too.


"All Cops Are Bastards"
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by stimpy »

Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:10 pm
stimpy wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:10 pm
Little Raven wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:01 pm
Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:08 pmI would hope they were filled by young thoughtful people that wanted to help the community.
I cannot imagine any sane person wanting to be a cop right now.

I mean, ACAB. Whether they want to be or not.
What is ACAB?
I had to look it up too.


"All Cops Are Bastards"
And that right there is why no sane person would want the job.
It's a no win situation these days.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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stimpy wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:06 pm Let me spell it out for ya.
Violence has been up so far this year. It's June 28th.
The 4th of July weekend usually sees a surge in violence.
Thus, me saying it's becoming like the Wild West and we havent even hit the July 4th weekend.

My comment about who would want to be a police officer in Chicago these days ties into the fact that it is becoming a more hostile and thankless job. Cops are bailing and very few people are stepping up. Fact.
Offices and officials that once had their back, within legal standards, seem to no longer do so.
Society is at total odds with the cops. There seems to be very little good faith on both sides.
It's a mess.
You don't need to spell any of that out for me.
I get we (Chicago) has a problem with gun violence, and it's not improving. I hardly put all the blame at a mayor's feet that took the job when COVID hit her city that had zero money/income and a BLM riot and pandemic to handle... I have nothing good or bad to say about her - but I can certainly say the city's 'cop problem' was not something she created nor something she was in any remarkable position to do anything about in this short time.

I understand the police officer job is a thankless one at this moment. I am not sure what to say to that. I can certainly say I've seen things myself (as a privileged white guy) numerous times with the CPD that has me questioning why they shouldn't be thankless in their day-to-day capacity to be cops. I mean, I hate to say it - but they have earned a bit of that, themselves. THAT BEING SAID - I've also been helped by the CPD in my life, and they aren't simply 'monsters'. Life isn't that simple and I think we both realize that.

When you say a sentence like: "Offices and officials that once had their back, within legal standards, seem to no longer do so." , that sends bells off in my head.

This brushes on the 'protection' that the police force would afford one another, above the law, that is at the heart of our current problem.
Last edited by Unagi on Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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stimpy wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:12 pm
Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:10 pm
stimpy wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:10 pm
Little Raven wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:01 pm
Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:08 pmI would hope they were filled by young thoughtful people that wanted to help the community.
I cannot imagine any sane person wanting to be a cop right now.

I mean, ACAB. Whether they want to be or not.
What is ACAB?
I had to look it up too.


"All Cops Are Bastards"
And that right there is why no sane person would want the job.
It's a no win situation these days.
And that was LR's point.

But I am saying; So.... How does that end? We let the ranks fill with "Who WOULD want that job" ?????
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:25 pmSo.... How does that end? We let the ranks fill with "Who WOULD want that job" ?????
I don't know. I'm very eager for some city that I don't live in to disband their police department and give us some experimental data.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

Little Raven wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:48 pm
Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:25 pmSo.... How does that end? We let the ranks fill with "Who WOULD want that job" ?????
I don't know. I'm very eager for some city that I don't live in to disband their police department and give us some experimental data.
This is the extremist position. I don't think we'll see a city disband a police department unless it is merging with another. I do think the Oakland position above is their form of the middle ground experiment. Let's see if we can prevent some of the crime another way and take the load off the police. Yes we see a police chief grumbling about his funding but that's bureaucracy for you.
Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:24 pmI understand the police officer job is a thankless one at this moment. I am not sure what to say to that. I can certainly say I've seen things myself (as a privileged white guy) numerous times with the CPD that has me questioning why they shouldn't be thankless in their day-to-day capacity to be cops. I mean, I hate to say it - but they have earned a bit of that, themselves. THAT BEING SAID - I've also been helped by the CPD in my life, and they aren't simply 'monsters'. Life isn't that simple and I think we both realize that.
This is the essence of it to me. Policing has always had some perks because it is a terrible job. In many places it comes with guarantees of healthcare for life, early retirement, substantial wages compared to educational attainment, protection from lawsuits, incredibly high bar for legal accountability, etc. Policing as an institution across the country bolstered by national police policy has abused this largesse and people are sick of it. That was my hot take last year and I think it still holds up. We're seeing massive amounts of talk about low morale, whining, quitting, etc. It indicates that something is very wrong there. They really were disconnected with their communities. That isn't a surprise. It was obvious to anyone paying attention.
When you say a sentence like: "Offices and officials that once had their back, within legal standards, seem to no longer do so." , that sends bells off in my head.

This brushes on the 'protection' that the police force would afford one another, above the law, that is at the heart of our current problem.
Exactly. This impunity from their wrongdoing and visibility of that impunity over time has eroded the trust between the police and their community. If they want to throw a tantrum, well it sort of proves the point.

I agree with you in your post above. There is an opportunity if someone wants to seize it to improve things. I'm more neutral on the outlook though. We see some departments responding with positively and then you have CPD and NYPD which frankly were unhealthy organizations before Floyd and the pandemic. It's a mixed bag and I think we had the inflection point. There was an opportunity for national leadership but we had the worst President in American history in office at the time. Now a lot of damage has been wrought and the current President has smoking rubble to work with. It'll probably take local reform in the near term though Congress might do something (there is some noise to that effect at least). Overall departments that want to be models need to continue work to change the culture of policing away from toxicity and self-destructive behaviors in regards to the relationship with the community.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:24 pm
You don't need to spell any of that out for me.
I get we (Chicago) has a problem with gun violence, and it's not improving. I hardly put all the blame at a mayor's feet that took the job when COVID hit her city that had zero money/income and a BLM riot and pandemic to handle... I have nothing good or bad to say about her - but I can certainly say the city's 'cop problem' was not something she created nor something she was in any remarkable position to do anything about in this short time.

One of Lightfoot 's core campaign promises was police reform. She hasn't delivered. It may be a lot harder than she thought.

It boils down to two things. Do we need police? If so, do we think they will be better or worse with less funding and fewer resources?
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:26 amOne of Lightfoot 's core campaign promises was police reform. She hasn't delivered. It may be a lot harder than she thought.

It boils down to two things. Do we need police? If so, do we think they will be better or worse with less funding and fewer resources?
Of course there need to be police but the second question isn't binary. Throwing more money doesn't necessarily make it better. Redirecting funding doesn't necessarily make it worse. These are big complex organizations in a complicated landscape. We need new ideas and we need to think a bit holistically about why society is responding to current conditions with violence. The important thing to consider IMO is that the police aren't the whole solution. Especially in its current form.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Separate but related to the core police issues is that this current 'surge in crime' is still historically very low compared to crime rates in the United States in many cities/towns. It is starting to sound a bit like the early 90s cry that led to the 1994 Crime Bill. In other words, one thing to keep in mind is that this like many current topics are being distorted. The themes of crime out of control and police demoralization are very much game for sensational headlines, lots of pundits yelling at each other, and no real appetite for practical solutions.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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I'm as skeptical of this (lower recruiting) as I am about the lack of labor participation due to unemployment checks.

Being a police officer is both a lucrative career and well respected even if there's some people shouting about the institution as a whole.

This too shall pass.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:13 amThis too shall pass.
That's the plan. Police reform has failed over and over because they are too entrenched. I think the most likely outcome is it'll return to a smoldering problem and may again overlap with our broken political process. That could mean trouble.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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malchior wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:00 am
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:13 amThis too shall pass.
That's the plan. Police reform has failed over and over because they are too entrenched. I think the most likely outcome is it'll return to a smoldering problem and may again overlap with our broken political process. That could mean trouble.
We have a hard time rooting out bad actors in all professions. If we could solve that, we could likely solve the policing issue.
Black Lives Matter

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Re: Police Reform in America

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malchior wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:35 am
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:26 amOne of Lightfoot 's core campaign promises was police reform. She hasn't delivered. It may be a lot harder than she thought.

It boils down to two things. Do we need police? If so, do we think they will be better or worse with less funding and fewer resources?
Of course there need to be police but the second question isn't binary. Throwing more money doesn't necessarily make it better. Redirecting funding doesn't necessarily make it worse. These are big complex organizations in a complicated landscape. We need new ideas and we need to think a bit holistically about why society is responding to current conditions with violence. The important thing to consider IMO is that the police aren't the whole solution. Especially in its current form.
We would have to address the institutionalized racism that has gotten us where we are. And I'm not talking about police racism. I'm talking about systemic racism in our economy and politics. Police serve economic interest at the bidding of the politicians. How can we expect police to be better than the masters who give them marching orders?
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Little Raven »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:04 pmWe would have to address the institutionalized racism that has gotten us where we are. And I'm not talking about police racism. I'm talking about systemic racism in our economy and politics. Police serve economic interest at the bidding of the politicians. How can we expect police to be better than the masters who give them marching orders?
Exactly. ACAB isn't about individual officers doing bad things. It's a recognition that police are literally incapable of being anything other than bastards because the system they serve is ultimately evil and exploitative. Only when the system is destroyed can policing be made whole.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Little Raven wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:19 pmExactly. ACAB isn't about individual officers doing bad things. It's a recognition that police are literally incapable of being anything other than bastards because the system they serve is ultimately evil and exploitative. Only when the system is destroyed can policing be made whole.
Is that satire?
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:42 pm
Little Raven wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:19 pmExactly. ACAB isn't about individual officers doing bad things. It's a recognition that police are literally incapable of being anything other than bastards because the system they serve is ultimately evil and exploitative. Only when the system is destroyed can policing be made whole.
Is that satire?
It isn't too far off the mark even if it was. This isn't just about rooting out bad actors. One thing that Trump did was open up our eyes to the vast systemic corruption we liked to ascribe to other nations. It's here and it is out in the open. That corruption mixed in with racism and related poverty/economic inequality are some part of the fuel for the "fires" we are seeing.

Worse national police policy enables the recruitment, militarization, and protection of bad actors. It's a feature of the system and not necessarily a problem in many eyes as long as it doesn't go too far. That's what I mean when I say they are entrenched and I agree with Lawbeefaroni and LR's comment. That's why going back to the post above I don't think pouring more money or diverting money necessarily mean much in the grand scheme. The system is incredibly unfair, unjust, and twisted except for the elite and privileged. Some might even call it evil and exploitative. And until we start addressing that the cycle will continue to repeat itself. Either the population will grow to accept it (like Russia does) or we will continue to have times of unrest. We'll see.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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I do not have rollie eyes big enough.

I don't deny there are systemic problems; not the least of which is racism. But to think it's corrupt from top to bottom is absurd.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:36 pm I do not have rollie eyes big enough.

I don't deny there are systemic problems; not the least of which is racism. But to think it's corrupt from top to bottom is absurd.
Corrupt might be the wrong word (sorta) but it's deeply rotted and sick throughout. The metrics for our police are unthinkable if you were to compare to most other non-authoritarian advanced economies in the number of people injured or killed by police, arrested, incarcerated, under supervision, and/or working as prison labor. And then you have the wider inequality and poverty while the rich/elite nearly evade all accountability. It's a deeply sick system. Roll your eyes all you want but this is an unfair system and the wheels are coming off finally as people can't help but see it for what it is.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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malchior wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:40 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:36 pm I do not have rollie eyes big enough.

I don't deny there are systemic problems; not the least of which is racism. But to think it's corrupt from top to bottom is absurd.
Corrupt might be the wrong word (sorta) but it's deeply rotted and sick throughout. The metrics for our police are unthinkable if you were to compare to most other non-authoritarian advanced economies in the number of people injured or killed by police, arrested, incarcerated, under supervision, and/or working as prison labor. And then you have the wider inequality and poverty while the rich/elite nearly evade all accountability. It's a deeply sick system. Roll your eyes all you want but this is an unfair system and the wheels are coming off finally as people can't help but see it for what it is.
The root cause isn't the police though. It's a mental health and violence issue in our culture from top to bottom where there no public buy-in for accountability. Bad teachers aren't held accountable. Bad doctors aren't held accountable. Bad corporations aren't really held accountable.

I mean, i get what you're saying, but why would we expect our police to act any better than the rest of society, and why would rebuilding it from the ground up change anything?
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

noxiousdog wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:36 pm I do not have rollie eyes big enough.

I don't deny there are systemic problems; not the least of which is racism. But to think it's corrupt from top to bottom is absurd.
It's not about corruption. It's not corruption if a government is built on systemic injustice. It's merely unjust.

Corruption exists in the system but is not the issue here.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:59 pmThe root cause isn't the police though. It's a mental health and violence issue in our culture from top to bottom where there no public buy-in for accountability. Bad teachers aren't held accountable. Bad doctors aren't held accountable. Bad corporations aren't really held accountable.

I mean, i get what you're saying, but why would we expect our police to act any better than the rest of society, and why would rebuilding it from the ground up change anything?
Yeah, I mostly agree with that. Police isn't the root cause but that's because there isn't one. It is as you point out a multivariate, complex pile of issues including lack of accountability throughout society. But I think in an ideal world there would be value in deconstructing our approach to policing and rebuilding it based on positive role models from other advanced economies. Especially since policing is a fundamental service that binds or in our case weakens large communities. The problem is that even small steps towards necessary change seemingly can't happen since we have no capacity to make change anymore.

Edit:
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:09 pmIt's not about corruption. It's not corruption if a government is built on systemic injustice. It's merely unjust.

Corruption exists in the system but is not the issue here.
Mostly agree - though I think there is some probably unquantifiable impact due to folks seeing nearly open corruption unchecked. I think it diminishes faith in rule of law/justice and drives negative and/or criminal behaviors.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

If you can't fix it, try to sweep the problem under the rug.

Edit: Looks like this was based on the bill as it was this morning - the passed version added language based on broad pushback that allowed taping in public (since that would be obviously unconstitutional). In any case, I didn't think DeWine would have signed it. It is more an indicator where somes heads are at in the GOP at the state level.

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Re: Police Reform in America

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noxiousdog wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:42 pmIs that satire?
Not at all.
It means 'All Cops Are Bastards'. We can hear some people objecting already: 'not all Gardaí are bad'. But please hold on, that's missing the point entirely. ACAB doesn't mean that each police officer as an individual person is nasty, sadistic, dishonest, and so on. It means that every police officer is bounded by their job as an agent of the state, and this necessarily causes cops to act like 'bastards' - whether or not they want to.

A cop goes to work as a cop, not as an individual. They cease to be 'John Murphy' and become 'Garda B203', anonymous law enforcement officer 71032. ACAB means that no matter how nice a person the cop is individually they must break strikes, attack social movements, execute homophobic, sexist, and racist laws, deport and evict people, and even torture and murder, because that is what the police do. Feel free to make a conscientious objection, you will be fired.

ACAB is a comment on the institutional role of the police. Far from being a personal insult it is actually drawing attention away from the cop as a personality and focusing on the cop as a job. Do you really think that every single Garda approves of the dawn raids on Tallaght residents, pepper spraying people in Jobstown and Coolock, spending their days as private security for Irish Water and their contractors? Do you think every Garda approves of arresting drug addicts instead of giving them medical treatment, harrassing homeless people, and all the rest of it? You get the point. Even if an anarchist became a policer officer, they could not refuse an order to arrest people attempting to sabotage US warplanes in Shannon airport. 'I don't agree but I have to because it's my job', i.e. All Cops Are Bounded.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Then it goes to follow all people are bastards. We all do things other people don't like.

It's the Ayn Rand version of life.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Little Raven »

It's definitely not Randian. They have no problem with police. ;)

ACAB has its roots in the anarchist community, and I suspect most of them would say something like "People aren't bad. Hierarchies are bad, and make the people involved in them do bad things that they would not otherwise do."

Personally, I'm deeply skeptical that you can have people without hierarchies - as far as I can tell, that's baked into the DNA. But then, I'm not an anarchist, so of course I would say that.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

I like to think it's more like the Deming Red Bead experiment.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Smoove_B »

malchior wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:59 pm I like to think it's more like the Deming Red Bead experiment.
Indeed.

Not as elegant, but the same idea:
Tom Northup wrote:All organizations are perfectly designed to get the results they are now getting. If we want different results, we must change the way we do things.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

Cop unsuccessfully tries to use Youtube copyright algorithm to stop taping of his public comments
It seems more and more law enforcement agents are trying to use online platforms' copyright-takedown measures to prevent videos that show them in a bad light from being shared online. A California police officer has tried to use the tactic on a BLM protestor at the Alameda Country courthouse by playing Taylor Swift's Blank Space, as reported by The Washington Post and Variety. His attempt failed, though, and it even backfired spectacularly: The video has almost 800,000 views on Twitter as of this writing, as well as 300,000 views on YouTube.



The protestor was at the courthouse for the pretrial hearing of Jason Fletcher, the police officer charged with voluntary manslaughter for killing Steven Taylor, a Black man, inside a Walmart. In the video posted by the Anti Police-Terror Project, you'll hear the officer admit that he played the popular Swift song so that it gets a copyright strike on Google's video platform. "You can record all you want, I just know it can't be posted on YouTube," he said.
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When asked if there's an administrative regulation telling cops to play copyrighted music to prevent videos from being shared, the officer replied: "Not that I know of." Alameda County sheriff's office spokesperson Sgt. Ray Kelly told The Post that there's no policy barring what the officer did in the video, but that the office does not "condone" his behavior.
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