Fundraising complete, next renewal is August 2022. Paypal Donation Links US dollars CDN Dollars

Police Reform in America

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
malchior
Posts: 14473
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

hepcat wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:44 pm The owner of the pit bull was restraining the dog, but it got loose. I would hardly characterize the actions of the cop as “parades the dog right by the fence” in light of that. The assumption was that the pit bull’s owner had control of their dog.

Of course I wish they had found another way to separate the dogs without resorting to killing it, but I just don’t see this one as cut and dry as you do. Perhaps my lying eyes just keep seeing a child instead of another dog walking close to that fence one day.
That is essentially the police rationale but it is also irrelevant. Are they saying the cops prevented a future animal attack so it is justified? That's illogical. That isn't what happened. Let's say both lost control of their dogs. That dog is supposed to be a trained service animal. The dead dog is bounded by the fence. You keep the K-9 away and nothing can happen. There was little reason to walk it right by the fence that the 'problem' dog was likely to try to defend. I see that as bad judgement and it led to a bad outcome. We're supposed to hope that officer doesn't put themselves in a bad situation again?

And it isn't that I see it as cut and dry. I see it as an example of a system that kills animals and humans at a rate that wouldn't be acceptable anywhere else in the 'free' world and yet somehow gets people to buy into their bullshit justifications. Reason ran an article about how 2 Detroit police officers killed something like 100 dogs between the two of them alone. Why? because officers are trained to react this way. And many times they put themselves into a bad situation and the system cleans up for them. It is really gross.
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 41490
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by hepcat »

malchior wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:53 pm
And it isn't that I see it as cut and dry. I see it as an example of a system that kills animals and humans at a rate that wouldn't be acceptable anywhere else in the 'free' world and yet somehow gets people to buy into their bullshit justifications.
That sounds like cut and dry to me. :wink:

Look, normally I agree with you. I just have my reservations about holding this particular incident up as an example. It may be because I live near someone who owns a rather vicious pit bull and I’m biased against that breed a bit, though. Pit bulls makes me nervous because of their history and my personal belief that way too many people own them for that history alone...then encourage them to be aggressive. Although according to many, they’re not really that violent.
I beat a camel to death with a monkey. Can I do that?
-Mr Bismarck

You have to whack a few rabbits before you are ready to punch a camel.
-Coopasonic
User avatar
Dogstar
Posts: 1604
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:20 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Dogstar »

Kenosha, Wisconsin is seeing intense protests after police shot an apparently unarmed man seven times in the back.
Protests have erupted in the US state of Wisconsin after police shot a black man many times while responding to what they said was a domestic incident.
The man, identified as Jacob Blake, is in a serious condition in hospital.
Video posted online appears to show Mr Blake being shot in the back as he tries to get into a car in the city of Kenosha.
Authorities in Kenosha declared an emergency overnight curfew after unrest broke out following the shooting.
Hundreds of people marched on police headquarters on Sunday night. Vehicles were set on fire and protesters shouted "We won't back down".
I've seen the original video as one of the neighbors recorded the whole thing. He goes to his car while not obeying police instructions. However, what's stunning to me is that there are multiple officers on the scene and none of them taser him or attempt to restrain him from entering the very situation that's likely to cost him his life. Non-compliance in a stressful situation should not result in a death sentence.
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 64014
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LordMortis »

hepcat wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:00 am
malchior wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:53 pm
And it isn't that I see it as cut and dry. I see it as an example of a system that kills animals and humans at a rate that wouldn't be acceptable anywhere else in the 'free' world and yet somehow gets people to buy into their bullshit justifications.
That sounds like cut and dry to me. :wink:

Look, normally I agree with you. I just have my reservations about holding this particular incident up as an example. It may be because I live near someone who owns a rather vicious pit bull and I’m biased against that breed a bit, though. Pit bulls makes me nervous because of their history and my personal belief that way too many people own them for that history alone...then encourage them to be aggressive. Although according to many, they’re not really that violent.



Leaving apart the breed for the moment, I wonder if that shades my opinion as well. I had three neighbors in a row with viscous dogs, where I could not get near my fenceline for fear of being attacked. Once the homeowner's dog bit, while the execution seems harsh, it does not seem unwarranted. If that was a child walking by without enough sense to stay further from the fence than a dog can bite through and the child lost a hand, how would we feel? I've seen a number of instances that raise my dander where a barking dog made a cop feel threatened and they put down the dog end of story. This was not one of the instances.

To bring the breed back into it, locally the story is all over the news but they refer to it as home owners "white dog", they never call it a pit bull. It's interesting how much baggage the breed brings to the table. People are fond of saying "It's not the breed" but around here, the vast majority of pit bull house holds raise them for their viciousness. To be protectors of property. I do feel for the homeowner but in this instance I don't think I am seeing a police officer abusing their power by executing an animal. I see a bad situation with an upsetting outcome.

Also local news says the police department says the officer behaved according to protocol.
malchior
Posts: 14473
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

hepcat wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:00 am
malchior wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:53 pm
And it isn't that I see it as cut and dry. I see it as an example of a system that kills animals and humans at a rate that wouldn't be acceptable anywhere else in the 'free' world and yet somehow gets people to buy into their bullshit justifications.
That sounds like cut and dry to me. :wink:
It's definitely debatable but what I see over and over is that the police have a narrative that rarely to never accepts responsibility. And their self-serving explanation then becomes the ground truth for the discussion. That is how I frame it. The breed doesn't matter to me because every dog is a pit bull in this situation. That's again what they declare to get people to say, "Oh yeah. Pitbulls are scary and aggressive." I do not accept their narrative as the facts anyomore. The police lie. Often. They will say whatever they need to say to get people to accept the endless violence this system propagates. That is where I come from.
Look, normally I agree with you. I just have my reservations about holding this particular incident up as an example. It may be because I live near someone who owns a rather vicious pit bull and I’m biased against that breed a bit, though. Pit bulls makes me nervous because of their history and my personal belief that way too many people own them for that history alone...then encourage them to be aggressive. Although according to many, they’re not really that violent.
This is exactly what I talking about. Consider that they chose to announce the breed to elicit this reaction. They often list out a litany of code violations and things the owner or person getting shot did wrong. It is all carefully constructed to get people to accept their brutality.
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 41490
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by hepcat »

I didn't see an announcement from the police mentioning the breed. I got that from an article on the shooting in a local newspaper.
I beat a camel to death with a monkey. Can I do that?
-Mr Bismarck

You have to whack a few rabbits before you are ready to punch a camel.
-Coopasonic
malchior
Posts: 14473
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

hepcat wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:28 am I didn't see an announcement from the police mentioning the breed. I got that from an article on the shooting in a local newspaper.
Which they got from the police most likely. I get what you are saying though. It wasn't in the official release. But this is getting into the nitpicks. The larger point is read the police statement. It blames everyone but themselves. That is the playbook and until we find a way to hold police accountable they will continue to kill.

Edit: I see it as an example. I can also see why someone who has a bias against dogs/the alleged breed could see it different.
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 30645
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Blackhawk »

Dogstar wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:36 am Kenosha, Wisconsin is seeing intense protests after police shot an apparently unarmed man seven times in the back.
Protests have erupted in the US state of Wisconsin after police shot a black man many times while responding to what they said was a domestic incident.
The man, identified as Jacob Blake, is in a serious condition in hospital.
Video posted online appears to show Mr Blake being shot in the back as he tries to get into a car in the city of Kenosha.
Authorities in Kenosha declared an emergency overnight curfew after unrest broke out following the shooting.
Hundreds of people marched on police headquarters on Sunday night. Vehicles were set on fire and protesters shouted "We won't back down".
I've seen the original video as one of the neighbors recorded the whole thing. He goes to his car while not obeying police instructions. However, what's stunning to me is that there are multiple officers on the scene and none of them taser him or attempt to restrain him from entering the very situation that's likely to cost him his life. Non-compliance in a stressful situation should not result in a death sentence.
They did attempt to tase him. I don't know why it didn't work. The real problem is that at three to one, they went straight from verbal commands to lethal force. If there was something in the vehicle they were concerned about, they had options as he slowly made his way around the vehicle that weren't lethal. There are options between "stop" and "bang" if you have time to employ them, and the didn't do so.
________________________________________
The light at the end of the tunnel

Black Lives Matter
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 41490
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by hepcat »

malchior wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:31 am Edit: I see it as an example. I can also see why someone who has a bias against dogs/the alleged breed could see it different.
Just to clarify, I love dogs. Cats? Not so much.
I beat a camel to death with a monkey. Can I do that?
-Mr Bismarck

You have to whack a few rabbits before you are ready to punch a camel.
-Coopasonic
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50350
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, where we only use the old smilies

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Blackhawk wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:52 am
Dogstar wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:36 am Kenosha, Wisconsin is seeing intense protests after police shot an apparently unarmed man seven times in the back.
Protests have erupted in the US state of Wisconsin after police shot a black man many times while responding to what they said was a domestic incident.
The man, identified as Jacob Blake, is in a serious condition in hospital.
Video posted online appears to show Mr Blake being shot in the back as he tries to get into a car in the city of Kenosha.
Authorities in Kenosha declared an emergency overnight curfew after unrest broke out following the shooting.
Hundreds of people marched on police headquarters on Sunday night. Vehicles were set on fire and protesters shouted "We won't back down".
I've seen the original video as one of the neighbors recorded the whole thing. He goes to his car while not obeying police instructions. However, what's stunning to me is that there are multiple officers on the scene and none of them taser him or attempt to restrain him from entering the very situation that's likely to cost him his life. Non-compliance in a stressful situation should not result in a death sentence.
They did attempt to tase him. I don't know why it didn't work. The real problem is that at three to one, they went straight from verbal commands to lethal force. If there was something in the vehicle they were concerned about, they had options as he slowly made his way around the vehicle that weren't lethal. There are options between "stop" and "bang" if you have time to employ them, and the didn't do so.
Tasers aren't the magic solution a lot of people think they are. They often fail to stop someone. A lot of things can go wrong.

You also have to imagine they didn't want to initiate physical contact if possible. In the seconds he walked around the front of the vehicle they probably expected him to stop and it went from "this isn't a physical contact situation yet" to " this is a lethal force situation" when he tried to get in the vehicle.

I mean how is it supposed to go? You give him 2 steps to obey verbal, 2 steps to get tased, 2 steps try to physically restrain him? At which point he's at the door and possibly accessing a weapon?


I mean maybe that's the problem, that intermediate tools aren't available to them? If they had swarmed him and taken him to the ground, would it have been any better, in terms of discipline and PR? If an officer approached him as he rounded the front of the car and knocked him out with a right hook, would everyone be saying, "Well done, they didn't use lethal force!"

This way they used no physical force until they had no choice, at which point the book said lethal was justified. (It may or may it have justified, but just going by the book)

It's a minefield and lots of forces and individuals are just saying fuck it. Keep distance, no force at all until you have no choice but lethal.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
malchior
Posts: 14473
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:08 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:52 am
Dogstar wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:36 am Kenosha, Wisconsin is seeing intense protests after police shot an apparently unarmed man seven times in the back.
Protests have erupted in the US state of Wisconsin after police shot a black man many times while responding to what they said was a domestic incident.
The man, identified as Jacob Blake, is in a serious condition in hospital.
Video posted online appears to show Mr Blake being shot in the back as he tries to get into a car in the city of Kenosha.
Authorities in Kenosha declared an emergency overnight curfew after unrest broke out following the shooting.
Hundreds of people marched on police headquarters on Sunday night. Vehicles were set on fire and protesters shouted "We won't back down".
I've seen the original video as one of the neighbors recorded the whole thing. He goes to his car while not obeying police instructions. However, what's stunning to me is that there are multiple officers on the scene and none of them taser him or attempt to restrain him from entering the very situation that's likely to cost him his life. Non-compliance in a stressful situation should not result in a death sentence.
They did attempt to tase him. I don't know why it didn't work. The real problem is that at three to one, they went straight from verbal commands to lethal force. If there was something in the vehicle they were concerned about, they had options as he slowly made his way around the vehicle that weren't lethal. There are options between "stop" and "bang" if you have time to employ them, and the didn't do so.
Tasers aren't the magic solution a lot of people think they are. They often fail to stop someone. A lot of things can go wrong.

You also have to imagine they didn't want to initiate physical contact if possible. In the seconds he walked around the front of the vehicle they probably expected him to stop and it went from "this isn't a physical contact situation yet" to " this is a lethal force situation" when he tried to get in the vehicle.

I mean how is it supposed to go? You give him 2 steps to obey verbal, 2 steps to get tased, 2 steps try to physically restrain him? At which point he's at the door and possibly accessing a weapon?


I mean maybe that's the problem, that intermediate tools aren't available to them? If they had swarmed him and taken him to the ground, would it have been any better, in terms of discipline and PR? If am officer approached him as he rounded the front of the car and knocked him out with a right hook, would everyone be saying, "Well done, they didn't use lethal force!"

This way they used no physical force until they had no choice, at which point the book said lethal was justified. (It may or may it have kiatofied, but just going by the book)

It's a minefield and lots of forces and individuals are just saying fuck it. Keep distance, no force at all until you have no choice but lethal.
Yes and that's why we need serious reform. We need to drastically raise the bar on lethal force. We need to change the tactics of the police beyond ways to take down suspects. If you see everyone as a target...well they become targets.

Other nations deal with maintaining law and order without this level of lethal violence. We can Monday morning quarterback these all day and show how the officer felt reasonable, etc. That's because we are all evaluating it inside a box designed to sweep the violence under the rug. And especially racial violence. This is poisoning the relationship with the community and leading to civil unrest. And at this point my sympathy with the police is extremely limited. They want special powers but none of the accountability. It isn't working.
User avatar
Kurth
Posts: 3967
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
Location: Portland

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Kurth »

I wonder whether the presence of his kids in the car was a factor? I read the cops were called to the scene for a domestic disturbance. If they thought he was a potential danger to the kids, how does that change the calculus?
The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it -- John Gilmore
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
disarm
Posts: 4221
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:50 pm
Location: Hartford, CT
Contact:

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by disarm »

I don't see how anything could justify seven shots into the back of an unarmed man from only an arm's length away

*Gamertag - disarm78*
Now Playing - The Witcher 3
malchior
Posts: 14473
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

disarm wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:39 pm I don't see how anything could justify seven shots into the back of an unarmed man from only an arm's length away
For all we know there was a gun lying on the seat. However, the Kenosha police department did not deploy body cams so the only people who can talk about it are Jacob Blake and the officer. And the video. There are no great sources of truth.
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50350
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, where we only use the old smilies

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

disarm wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:39 pm I don't see how anything could justify seven shots into the back of an unarmed man from only an arm's length away
Number of shots fired isn't a great measure of the amount of force used or needed.

Gunshot wounds aren't like the movies where someone is blasted backwards and immediately put out of commission. They can continue to move and fight and may not even appear wounded immediately.

When lethal force is deployed, it is deployed to stop a threat. "Stop" being the key word. Everyone is taught to shoot until the threat is stopped. When you can fire several rounds per second and it may take seconds for a suspect to stop and/or effects of shooting to become apparent, and when several officers may be shooting, it's not completely out of the realm of reason for 7 shots to be fired.

One bullet isn't always going to take someone out of a fight. Indeed, seven shots were fired and the man survived (so far).


None of this is to say the shots were justified, just that 7 shots in and of themselves don't automatically make it a bad shoot. Same with shots to the back but that's a really long discussion.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 30645
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Blackhawk »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:08 pm I mean how is it supposed to go? You give him 2 steps to obey verbal, 2 steps to get tased, 2 steps try to physically restrain him? At which point he's at the door and possibly accessing a weapon?
To be clear, the descriptions I read were that he was tased prior to the video starting. If the tasing took place during the video, that changes things. If it took place prior, that's a six-second window from the time he starts moving to the time he opens the door with a cop in arm's reach the whole time and backup already on the scene. In my non-expert (but not inexperienced) opinion, that's enough time to for an order, to recognize that it's being ignored, and to attempt a takedown before they reached the point at which they fired.

But that's just based on one video. We don't have all of the facts, and can't know the whole story. And since they don't have the effing sense to have body cameras, we may never know the story - or if the story we do hear is true. I will say this: Their justification would have to be really, really good for firing seven times into a steel ricochet box containing three children.
________________________________________
The light at the end of the tunnel

Black Lives Matter
User avatar
Kurth
Posts: 3967
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
Location: Portland

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Kurth »

disarm wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:39 pm I don't see how anything could justify seven shots into the back of an unarmed man from only an arm's length away
You may not see it, but that doesn't mean it isn't so. I get where you're coming from here, but I think this mindset is also part of the problem.

Police should 100% not get the old "benefit of the doubt" when it comes to the use of force, but they should be afforded a measure of respect for the fact that the job they do is incredibly difficult, requiring split second decision-making, often with imperfect information, under incredible pressure with life and death consequences.

Again, they don't get any kind of free pass, and their actions need to be looked at with objective scrutiny. But snap judgments and declarations about absolutes made in a vacuum seem to be part of the problem, not part of the solution.
The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it -- John Gilmore
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
Alefroth
Posts: 5828
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Bellingham WA

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Alefroth »

Kurth wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:15 pm but they should be afforded a measure of respect for the fact that the job they do is incredibly difficult, requiring split second decision-making, often with imperfect information, under incredible pressure with life and death consequences.
People have been hearing and accepting that excuse for a long time now. They are getting fed up and demanding better.
malchior
Posts: 14473
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:04 pm
disarm wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:39 pm I don't see how anything could justify seven shots into the back of an unarmed man from only an arm's length away
Number of shots fired isn't a great measure of the amount of force used or needed.

Gunshot wounds aren't like the movies where someone is blasted backwards and immediately put out of commission. They can continue to move and fight and may not even appear wounded immediately.

When lethal force is deployed, it is deployed to stop a threat. "Stop" being the key word. Everyone is taught to shoot until the threat is stopped. When you can fire several rounds per second and it may take seconds for a suspect to stop and/or effects of shooting to become apparent, and when several officers may be shooting, it's not completely out of the realm of reason for 7 shots to be fired.

One bullet isn't always going to take someone out of a fight. Indeed, seven shots were fired and the man survived (so far).


None of this is to say the shots were justified, just that 7 shots in and of themselves don't automatically make it a bad shoot. Same with shots to the back but that's a really long discussion.
It isn't clear to me whether its all 7 shots from one person or not. If it was one shooter, then the pace allowed no time to evaluate if they 'stopped'. It was essentially a couple seconds.
malchior
Posts: 14473
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

Alefroth wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:33 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:15 pm but they should be afforded a measure of respect for the fact that the job they do is incredibly difficult, requiring split second decision-making, often with imperfect information, under incredible pressure with life and death consequences.
People have been hearing and accepting that excuse for a long time now. They are getting fed up and demanding better.
Exactly. That we are still giving them credit for how hard it is channeling a central police claim central to their almost complete lack of accountability. It isn't just that people are fed up. We shouldn't accept it without controls then. We kill a lot of people here. We kill animals. We beat people and incarcerate people at higher rates. Everything is out of whack. This isn't an easy problem but listening to the cops themselves has to be tempered with addressing other stakeholders if we want to have any chance of ending this. There has been several police reform movements over the years and they all keep landing in the same place.

To Kurth's larger point about snap judgements, I agree but the problem is the police are given wide latitude here. So the investigations aren't trusted. That leads people to assume to fairly think the police will act to insulate themselves from accountability. And that is true. The chances a police officer is held accountable for lethal mistakes is slim to none. So those snap decisions? They get made without consequence. We have a policy for defending life that excludes everyone but the police officer. For example, 0 police officers have been killed by a dog in 70 years but bystanders have been killed by police officers shooting dogs. The balance is just not there.
Last edited by malchior on Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 24824
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Approximately Wissahickon

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Holman »

malchior wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:37 pm It isn't clear to me whether its all 7 shots from one person or not. If it was one shooter, then the pace allowed no time to evaluate if they 'stopped'. It was essentially a couple seconds.
If the shots were coming from other angles, that makes it worse. There were three kids in the back seat of the car (which, along with what else we know of the story, makes "suicide by cop" seem much less likely). Hope fully they weren't just pounding bullets in from all sides.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50350
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, where we only use the old smilies

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Blackhawk wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:09 pm Their justification would have to be really, really good for firing seven times into a steel ricochet box containing three children.
Guarantee that they were using JHP, probably in 9mm or .40. Those will not bounce around in the car.

I'm not sure who shot so I can't say of all the angles were OK but the one cop closest to the door, who shot off at least some of the rounds, was fine.

They absolutely need to consider the kids in the ca. The kids will suffer mental trauma and it's not great for their ears either. You never want to shoot anywhere near kids or other bystanders but ricochet danger didn't appear to be an issue here.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 68682
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Isgrimnur »

Well, Jacob Blake will never walk away from an officer again...
The father of Jacob Blake, the 29-year-old Black man shot by Kenosha, Wis., police on Sunday, told the Chicago Sun-Times that his son is paralyzed from the waist down.
Black lives matter
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50350
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, where we only use the old smilies

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Another angle of the Blake incident here, skip to 4:18 to avoid the commentary.





He got up after being taken to the ground and fighting off officers, went around the car and right in the driver's side the door.


Not agreeing with everything this guy says but it is far from an obvious bad shoot.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
McNutt
Posts: 11456
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:57 pm
Location: What's the opposite of the Twittersphere

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by McNutt »

I don't think you can shoot a man in the back because he might be going for a gun. Yes, that increases the chances of cops being shot, but shouldn't that me a risk worth taking? It's easy for me to say that as I'm not placing my life on the line. However, lethal force should only be used when there is no doubt about what the unarmed suspect is about to do.
malchior
Posts: 14473
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

McNutt wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:27 pm I don't think you can shoot a man in the back because he might be going for a gun. Yes, that increases the chances of cops being shot, but shouldn't that me a risk worth taking? It's easy for me to say that as I'm not placing my life on the line. However, lethal force should only be used when there is no doubt about what the unarmed suspect is about to do.
I agree the bar is too low but that is essentially the policy for police all across the United States. Individual departments might have more strict criteria about use of force but criminally the Supreme Court essentially gave police an out - they just have say they had a reasonable fear their life was in danger.
malchior
Posts: 14473
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:15 pm Another angle of the Blake incident here, skip to 4:18 to avoid the commentary.





He got up after being taken to the ground and fighting off officers, went around the car and right in the driver's side the door.


Not agreeing with everything this guy says but it is far from an obvious bad shoot.
This whole discussion is a symptom of the problem. We the people keep taking our cues from the police and allow ourselves to get mired in the tactical details of 'bad vs. good shoots' which is *their framing* of the issue. The police uniformly resist reform by recycling the same defenses and distracting us from the big picture. As long as we focus on these things they keep getting away with racist-tinged murder. Like they have been for decades.
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50350
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, where we only use the old smilies

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

malchior wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:45 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:15 pm Another angle of the Blake incident here, skip to 4:18 to avoid the commentary.





He got up after being taken to the ground and fighting off officers, went around the car and right in the driver's side the door.


Not agreeing with everything this guy says but it is far from an obvious bad shoot.
This whole discussion is a symptom of the problem. We the people keep taking our cues from the police and allow ourselves to get mired in the tactical details of 'bad vs. good shoots' which is *their framing* of the issue. The police uniformly resist reform by recycling the same defenses and distracting us from the big picture. As long as we focus on these things they keep getting away with racist-tinged murder. Like they have been for decades.
Ok, fair enough, so we just say, "stop shooting people." Let's say we all agree to that and come up with reasonable, mutually agreed-to exceptions. Who writes the new rules, who develops and delivers the new training, and who do you get to be the new cops?

Right now the rules allow these shootings (usually). The training matches these rules (mostly). And cops are accustomed to the world as it is. Once you change all of this, things are going to look a lot different. For better or worse.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
gbasden
Posts: 6528
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:57 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by gbasden »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:07 pm
malchior wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:45 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:15 pm Another angle of the Blake incident here, skip to 4:18 to avoid the commentary.





He got up after being taken to the ground and fighting off officers, went around the car and right in the driver's side the door.


Not agreeing with everything this guy says but it is far from an obvious bad shoot.
This whole discussion is a symptom of the problem. We the people keep taking our cues from the police and allow ourselves to get mired in the tactical details of 'bad vs. good shoots' which is *their framing* of the issue. The police uniformly resist reform by recycling the same defenses and distracting us from the big picture. As long as we focus on these things they keep getting away with racist-tinged murder. Like they have been for decades.
Ok, so we just say, "stop shooting people." Let's say we all agree to that and come up with reasonable exceptions. Who writes the new rules, who develops and delivers the new training, and who do you get to be the new cops?

Right now the rules allow these shootings (usually). The training matches these rules (mostly). And cops are accustomed to the world as it is. Once you change all of this, things are going to look a lot different. For better or worse.
It's exhausting. Like many other things, most first world countries have police forces that have a tiny fraction of the amount of police involved shootings than we do. Like everything else, we are told over and over that what they do won't work here. I honestly don't know. Maybe we are getting to the point of being ungovernable?
Black Lives Matter!
malchior
Posts: 14473
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

It is a massive problem but we need to start by getting more and more people to realize it is a problem. That has finally really started to happen. That is key because it'll take massive support to realize change since the police have so much power in our politics. {eople need to chip away at the base resistance to meaningful change...and then be patient...and chip away more...because they are likely only going to get one shot.

That's about the only good thing though. Otherwise, the current state is bleak. People are fed up with the police and I don't think they are going to just accept endless police brutality. And many people are increasingly sympathetic to that. On the other hand, many people also hate the unrest and want it to stop to the point they agree the military should be sent in. Our society essentially is locked in a large-scale case of cognitive dissonance and paralysis. We want all the problems to go away as long it doesn't individually affect us. That is impossible so this cycle continues.

That is why I can't but acknowledge that folks like Galtung got us right. This is another imbalance in our politics that our system can't resolve. And perhaps we're in the middle of the major existential crisis that our broken system wrought. We won't know for some time but in the short-term I think policing won't get fixed in a peaceful way.
User avatar
AWS260
Posts: 11506
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:51 pm
Location: Brooklyn

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by AWS260 »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:15 pm Not agreeing with everything this guy says but it is far from an obvious bad shoot.
I feel like we watched different videos.
malchior
Posts: 14473
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

Powerful stuff here.

User avatar
Paingod
Posts: 12430
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:58 am

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Paingod »

McNutt wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:27 pmI don't think you can shoot a man in the back because he might be going for a gun.
Circumstance dictates reactions.

Jaywalker stopped by cops and reaching into his backpack to get ID? Don't shoot.
Speeding motorist stopped and reaching into the glovebox for paperwork? Don't shoot.
Sleeping in bed? Don't shoot.
Resisting arrest, breaking police custody, ignoring all commands to stop, and reaching into a car?

I do not expect police to wait until someone has a gun trained on them when the circumstance makes it likely that the person is about to be or is armed. They can't see what he's reaching for and he doesn't even need to turn around to start shooting at them or others.

If you look at this incident and toss out every other factor - the domestic abuse call, the felony criminal history including firearms - and look at it as all you can see in the video (which was my first reaction) the person that was shot could have easily avoided being shot by simply complying at any point in the 6 or 7 seconds he took to calmly walk around the car and open the door. He wasn't lynched or gunned down without warning. He was actively resisting arrest and deliberately putting the police in a situation where they had to make a choice.

This wasn't a trigger-happy cop that started blasting away the moment they decided to arrest the guy. This wasn't a police officer casually crushing a man's neck for almost 9 minutes, or shooting into a sleeping person's home, or kicking a man in the head when he was cuffed and posed no threat, or driving up to a kid with a toy gun and killing him, or gunning down a jogger that was defending himself, or shooting someone is clearly mentally distressed and simply not correctly responding to commands but trying to comply.
Black Lives Matter

"This free trial of 2021 sucks. I want to unsubscribe"
malchior
Posts: 14473
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

Paingod wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:30 am
McNutt wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:27 pmI don't think you can shoot a man in the back because he might be going for a gun.
Circumstance dictates reactions.

Jaywalker stopped by cops and reaching into his backpack to get ID? Don't shoot.
Speeding motorist stopped and reaching into the glovebox for paperwork? Don't shoot.
Sleeping in bed? Don't shoot.
Resisting arrest, breaking police custody, ignoring all commands to stop, and reaching into a car?

I do not expect police to wait until someone has a gun trained on them when the circumstance makes it likely that the person is about to be or is armed. They can't see what he's reaching for and he doesn't even need to turn around to start shooting at them or others.

If you look at this incident and toss out every other factor - the domestic abuse call, the felony criminal history including firearms - and look at it as all you can see in the video (which was my first reaction) the person that was shot could have easily avoided being shot by simply complying at any point in the 6 or 7 seconds he took to calmly walk around the car and open the door. He wasn't lynched or gunned down without warning. He was actively resisting arrest and deliberately putting the police in a situation where they had to make a choice.
Wow. This strikes me as the litany of the usual justifications that lead to an endless parade of unarmed black lives being snuffed out. If only they complied. If only they didn't have a violent past. If only they didn't have drugs in their system. Thinking about that a bit. Black people comply and they still die. They don't have warrants like Breonna Taylor lying asleep in her bed when the police served a bad warrant and they still die. We simply can't ignore that the whole damn system is built to justify and continue endless police brutality.

Right now, the police won't release basic information like was a weapon found, how many officers fired their weapon, how many shots fired, etc. They have completely walled up. Probably as usual to cook their exoneration of the officer. And that'll just start another wave of violence. Folks assume the fix is in. Maybe that isn't what happens here but it is more than fair nowadays.
User avatar
Paingod
Posts: 12430
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:58 am

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Paingod »

malchior wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:57 amThis strikes me as the litany of the usual justifications that lead to an endless parade of unarmed black lives being snuffed out. If only they complied.
The police weren't interested in shooting this particular person until he broke custody, ignored every command at gunpoint, opened his car door, and finally reached inside - giving them few alternatives. You can choose to ignore that if you'd like. It sounds like it fits the narrative you prefer if you do.

Not every cop responding to a domestic call is a horrible piece of shit looking to gun someone down. IIRC, domestic calls are some of the most tense situations they get called for because people don't act rationally. These situations are the ones we really need police reform for so the responding squad could have had a social worker in addition to a guy with a gun. Give the social worker a chance to get things calmed down, but keep people safe as needed.

It doesn't make me happy at all that someone, of any color, was shot. I'm willing to give these particular cops in this particular situation the benefit of a doubt that skin color didn't matter during those last 6 seconds before shots were fired. Skin color may have mattered up to that point in creating the social environment that enabled this to begin with, but in those last few moments it didn't. It was a man, a human being, acting in a manner that created the impression that some serious shit was about to go down if they didn't stop him.
Last edited by Paingod on Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Black Lives Matter

"This free trial of 2021 sucks. I want to unsubscribe"
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 14496
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Zarathud »

Another solution would be to reduce the number of guns so that police aren’t always expecting a gun to be drawn.

Or any of the other many actions where other police officers deal with people who have (or have fired) guns and are not black.

You say “reasonable to have shot in this circumstance” but after so many times the police shoot, it’s no longer as reasonable. The citizens are going to stop cooperating. They’re going to go to their cars, rather than put themselves in dangerous police custody.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 14496
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Zarathud »

It’s also fair to say that — even if you wouldn’t prosecute the officer — the shootings are making the social situation MORE dangerous. That one officer may feel safer today but thousands more police are at risk because nothing changes.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
User avatar
Paingod
Posts: 12430
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:58 am

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Paingod »

Zarathud wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:26 amAnother solution would be to reduce the number of guns so that police aren’t always expecting a gun to be drawn.
Until you can get the half of America that wants guns in their homes to agree to give them up, calling it a solution is pissing into the wind. It's thoughts and prayers. I think that in a lot of places now, legally armed civilians are essential because of the problems created by guns and social/economic disparity. Taking away legally owned firearms won't fix the social issues or remove guns from criminal hands and would leave honest, average people at the whim of "average police response times" - i.e. long after they've been shot/robbed/raped/beaten.

Fix society's issues first and the perceived need for guns should decline. It wouldn't bother me at all to live in a country with cops who have guns but keep them in the trunk of their cars unless absolutely needed. I'm a gun owner both out of enjoyment of it as a hobby and out of a feeling of moderate necessity. It'd take the police 8-10 minutes to get to my house from their station, and we have both high-value puppy sales in addition to having a seemingly endless parade of lost people looking for our neighbors (who, I believe, do a brisk trade in less legal substances). It makes me and my wife feel better and sleep better to know we have a backup plan beyond "hope the cops arrive fast enough". :confusion-shrug:

Find a way to remove every gun, legal and illegal, and I'd be more for it - though Trump has proven some gun nuts right in wanting to hold onto their right to form a militia against tyranny if they need to. I didn't think it might be a possibility until his presidency, and now I don't think anything is actually "off the table" or "in the realm of impossibility" - he's proven that a government that runs on norms and expectations has serious gaping flaws. That's a whole different thread, though.
You say “reasonable to have shot in this circumstance” but after so many times the police shoot, it’s no longer as reasonable. The citizens are going to stop cooperating. They’re going to go to their cars, rather than put themselves in dangerous police custody.
The time and place to stop cooperating is not when someone with legal authority to do so is holding a gun on you. It's the protests and ballot boxes. It's venues where your voice can make a difference. No one is ever going to convince a trio of armed, hyped-up cops who are intent on arresting you that what everyone needs to do is just calm down a moment and stop trying to arrest them. There's no polite discourse that will help. There's no aggressive action that will move them to stop and reconsider. The only outcome to being anything other than a limp, wet noodle when a cop wants to arrest you is endangering yourself.
Zarathud wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:29 am It’s also fair to say that — even if you wouldn’t prosecute the officer — the shootings are making the social situation MORE dangerous. That one officer may feel safer today but thousands more police are at risk because nothing changes.
I believe you're absolutely correct. I wager that the police in the US that aren't totally bent, racist pieces of shit are sweating anytime they have to draw on someone of color. They know exactly how it will play out if they feel they have to shoot. Even shootings that aren't clearly murder and abuse of power are creating riots.

I don't blame anyone who gets angry over it, either. For many, this is another notch in the gun of the cops and another reason to hate them. I simply disagree with that position in this particular case.
Last edited by Paingod on Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
Black Lives Matter

"This free trial of 2021 sucks. I want to unsubscribe"
User avatar
raydude
Posts: 3262
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:22 am

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by raydude »

Training, training, training. They need more training in how to shoot, how to be calm under stress, and training so they can be confident and competent in alternative techniques for subduing a suspect.

If the default reaction to stress and a tense unknown situation where everyone may be armed is to pull out a weapon and shoot then we would be seeing many more civilian casualties from our infantry in Afghanistan and Iraq. As it stands they receive lots and lots of training to be able to stay calm and NOT shoot as their first impulse.

We need to train the police as intensively and as long as our military in armed and unarmed combat so that they don't get so tense that a gun becomes their go-to stress relief.
malchior
Posts: 14473
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

Zarathud wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:29 am It’s also fair to say that — even if you wouldn’t prosecute the officer — the shootings are making the social situation MORE dangerous. That one officer may feel safer today but thousands more police are at risk because nothing changes.
This focus on officer safety is one of the root causes here. Their safety is by policy, law, and obvious practice paramount to everyone else. They are a protected class that is de facto unaccountable to any power. How is that not obviously a house on fire problem itself?

The question should be why is a thousand plus people killed by the police year after year acceptable? This happens while the level of police killed in the line of duty by violence is remarkably low considering the threat environment they claim to justify the violence. The ratio between civilians killed to police is something like 50 to 1. And that is probably too low because the issue is not important enough to even properly count.

This isn't directed at you but more in general -- it boggles my mind that people expect a terrorized populace to act the way *they think they should* in the situation. They assume the police are trying to murder them whether they go peacefully or not. That is the reality. And they have a reasonable belief that this is true. That is why this is not going to go away on its own. That we accept the police justification especially around safety are ridiculous when black people are murdered daily/weekly. Why do they not matter?
raydude wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:48 am Training, training, training. They need more training in how to shoot, how to be calm under stress, and training so they can be confident and competent in alternative techniques for subduing a suspect.
This is always important but it also is often pointed out as a quick fix. There is no quick fix. Major police reform is the solution but incredibly difficult to even approach because people want safety (as long as you are just killing other people) more than they want social justice. It's a real problem.
Last edited by malchior on Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply