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Police Reform in America

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Blackhawk
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Blackhawk »

Paingod wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:30 am
McNutt wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:27 pmI don't think you can shoot a man in the back because he might be going for a gun.
Circumstance dictates reactions.

Jaywalker stopped by cops and reaching into his backpack to get ID? Don't shoot.
Speeding motorist stopped and reaching into the glovebox for paperwork? Don't shoot.
Sleeping in bed? Don't shoot.
Resisting arrest, breaking police custody, ignoring all commands to stop, and reaching into a car?
In none of those situations is someone's life actually in danger. The line is whether the shooter (cop or civilian) reasonably believes that a life is in immediate danger, and that there is no way to remove the danger except for the death of the suspect. In your example the cop could believe that a life might be in danger . That's not enough, unless they actually saw a gun somewhere or were told there was one.

And I'm still not convinced that there was no other way to remove the danger.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

malchior wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:57 am
Wow. This strikes me as the litany of the usual justifications that lead to an endless parade of unarmed black lives being snuffed out. If only they complied. If only they didn't have a violent past. If only they didn't have drugs in their system. Thinking about that a bit. Black people comply and they still die. They don't have warrants like Breonna Taylor lying asleep in her bed when the police served a bad warrant and they still die. We simply can't ignore that the whole damn system is built to justify and continue endless police brutality.
But you can't lump every police involved shooting in the same bucket either. Everyone can get behind the fight against cops serving an improperly served no-knock warrant . It doesn't really help the cause when cities are burned down over a UUW felon with an outstanding warrant resisting arrest. Are they different degrees of the same systemic problem? Sure. But if you don't want the debate to turn to the tactical issues and justifications, don't treat every shooting as exactly the same premeditated racially motivated indifference to life.


This is a social and economic problem at it's core. Bad police and bad police behavior are just symptoms.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Paingod »

malchior wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:52 amThe question should be why is a thousand plus people killed by the police year after year acceptable? This happens while the level of police killed in the line of duty by violence is remarkably low considering the threat environment they claim to justify the violence. The ratio between civilians killed to police is something like 50 to 1. And that is probably too low because the issue is not important enough to even properly count.
I would counter-postulate that if the police didn't shoot as often as they did, there'd be more dead cops and maybe just as many dead civilians. We focus on and hear a sampling of names from that yearly thousand. We don't really hear the story behind the other 975. How many of those deaths are genuinely justified shootings? How many lives are saved by police shooting before someone else gets shot first?

It all absolutely warrants better study and accountability. The police operate in too much of a grey area of almost total unaccountability.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:56 am a UUW felon with an outstanding warrant
Was this known by the officers at the time? If so, it certainly helps the police case. If not, it's a red herring that's typically used after the fact to try to justify a shooting. It's digging up the past history of the victim and saying, "Well, he was a bad person so maybe we shouldn't use him as a martyr in this situation." Again, if they were aware of this (e.g., if it was part of the call that this guy was a felon with a weapons history), then I certainly think it helps the police case.

One way to look at this, and there's no way to know the answer to this with certainty, is to ask whether a white suspect would have been shot in this same scenario. Even assuming that this is ultimately determined that this is a justified shooting by the officer, if the police would not have (or would have been less likely to) shoot a white person in the same situation, that's a problem.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:56 am But you can't lump every police involved shooting in the same bucket either. Everyone can get behind the fight against cops serving an improperly served no-knock warrant . It doesn't really help the cause when cities are burned down over a UUW felon with an outstanding warrant resisting arrest. Are they different degrees of the same systemic problem? Sure. But if you don't want the debate to turn to the tactical issues and justifications, don't treat every shooting as exactly the same premeditated racially motivated indifference to life.


This is a social and economic problem at it's core. Bad police and bad police behavior are just symptoms.
I totally agree. This gets into the social dynamic behind the 'Conservative dilemma' but the system has evolved to deliver this outcome. I don't even necessarily blame individual police officers though there are indications that the police are infested by white nationalists. And the 'ground facts' that you bring up - that he is a felon with an outstanding warrant resisting arrest - certainly doesn't help with the 'conservative' minded people that may believe they 'deserve' it. That is part of the problem too.

However, the path from that mind frame to the fires that burned in Kenosha have to take into consideration that this situation is making martyrs out of these people. At some point, who they are and what they did doesn't matter because the problem is so big. The details have stopped mattering to many folks. That is why big picture solutions are the only way out. Unless we change the frame, the violence will continue, and it will escalate.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by raydude »

malchior wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:52 am
raydude wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:48 am Training, training, training. They need more training in how to shoot, how to be calm under stress, and training so they can be confident and competent in alternative techniques for subduing a suspect.
This is always important but it also is often pointed out as a quick fix. There is no quick fix. Major police reform is the solution but incredibly difficult to even approach because people want safety (as long as you are just killing other people) more than they want social justice. It's a real problem.
For a "quick fix" I'm amazed that the problem has lasted this long. You'd think they'd go for low hanging fruit first.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

raydude wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:58 am
malchior wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:52 am
raydude wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:48 am Training, training, training. They need more training in how to shoot, how to be calm under stress, and training so they can be confident and competent in alternative techniques for subduing a suspect.
This is always important but it also is often pointed out as a quick fix. There is no quick fix. Major police reform is the solution but incredibly difficult to even approach because people want safety (as long as you are just killing other people) more than they want social justice. It's a real problem.
For a "quick fix" I'm amazed that the problem has lasted this long. You'd think they'd go for low hanging fruit first.
The departments who've improved training have seen positive but not trans-formative results. Even then, it should be an easy thing to improve on but even this often gets defeated down by the unions. It is a step towards more accountability...so they resist it.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

FWIW - they've announced the Kenosha shooter is a 17-year old kid and he has been charged with 1st degree murder but is not in custody. A lot of noise about how he is an agent provocateur from Illinois. Like Kenosha isn't basically on the border of the state and he might live 10 miles away. :?

Edit: I knew this was coming.

Last edited by malchior on Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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raydude wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:48 am Training, training, training. They need more training in how to shoot, how to be calm under stress, and training so they can be confident and competent in alternative techniques for subduing a suspect.
If officers are using deadly force, they're usually trained to not pause their fire and to shoot in quick succession -- taking a break to assess the suspect they're shooting at could give that suspect time to harm them or others, he said.

The whole issue of number of shots brought up in the article is a dead end IMO. If they make the decision to use deady force to stop what they perceive as a threat, they use deady force. That's either the right call or is isn't, number of shots don't matter. There isn't a degree of deadly force, it's binary.

If every person killed by cops was double-tapped with surgical precision, would everything be OK?

There are plenty of other issues training issues that are more viable and should be tackled first. Particularly stopping it from getting to a deadly force situation in the first place. And possibly reducing the scope of authorized deadly force.
raydude wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:48 am If the default reaction to stress and a tense unknown situation where everyone may be armed is to pull out a weapon and shoot then we would be seeing many more civilian casualties from our infantry in Afghanistan and Iraq. As it stands they receive lots and lots of training to be able to stay calm and NOT shoot as their first impulse.

We need to train the police as intensively and as long as our military in armed and unarmed combat so that they don't get so tense that a gun becomes their go-to stress relief.
Police and military training should be completely different. We do not want to train our police like the military.

For several reasons but most of all because they have very different jobs. Soldiers are rarely sent in to domestic situations and when they are, they are their most dangerous jobs. Clearing houses is always cited as one of the most stressful and dangerous jobs a soldier has. These are things cops are asked to do on a daily basis. If we trained cops to clear houses like soldiers, we'd see more militarised cops, not less.

Soldiers have clear cut ROE. They are told when and who they can shoot and when and who they cannot. Cops have to rely on their own judgement. Soldiers use ball ammo designed to punch through barriers and penetrate multiple contacts. Police use hollow point ammo designed to limit penetration and reduce ricochet. Soldiers use offensive weaponry designed to be effective at long ranges. Police (generally) use sidearms designed for defensive use.

And honestly I think you may have a rosy view of the number of civilian casualties and soldier closure under fire. Directly attributed to US/coalition forces, numbers were in the thousands annually at the height of Afghanistan and in the mid-hundreds later in the conflict. That's just Afghanistan.

Finally, IMO, some of the worse offenders in police forces are former military. I know from personal experience that while they may be the best shots or calmest under fire they are also the first to resort to force, quickest to go to the gun, and talk the most shit about beating up/shooting "perps." There are plenty of ex-military who make great cops but some of the worst are also ex-military.


I'm not alone, apparently.

Dallas Police Department officers with military experience were significantly more likely to have discharged their firearm while on duty than cops with no military service, a study reported this month.Researchers at the University of Texas School of Public Health in Dallas examined the U.S. Armed Forces records of officers in the local police department and published their report in the Journal of Public Health on Oct. 3.

They billed the study as the first of its kind and found that regardless of their deployment history, cops who were military veterans were more prone to shooting incidents.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LordMortis »

malchior wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:11 pm FWIW - they've announced the Kenosha shooter is a 17-year old kid and he has been charged with 1st degree murder but is not in custody. A lot of noise about how he is an agent provocateur from Illinois. Like Kenosha isn't basically on the border of the state and he might live 10 miles away. :?
If true, 10 miles or not, he traveled across state lines with a fire arm to join hostile situation which resulted in his murder of a fellow human being. That all stacks up, as it should. They'll want mercy for the fact that a 17 year old isn't in charge of his own behavior when he should never see the light of day outside of a prison again.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

malchior wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:11 pm FWIW - they've announced the Kenosha shooter is a 17-year old kid and he has been charged with 1st degree murder but is not in custody. A lot of noise about how he is an agent provocateur from Illinois. Like Kenosha isn't basically on the border of the state and he might live 10 miles away. :?

Edit: I knew this was coming.

Tweet appears to be down.


If the kid is indeed from Illinois, it could be very problematic for someone. He's not allowed to purchase a firearm (18 for long guns and 21 for handguns) so someone had to have given it to him unless he got it in Wisconsin. It's legal to give him a long gun as long as he has a FOID, which would require notarized guardian signature since he's under 21 (FOID requires 21 or guardian signature).

If he bought it in Wisconsin, the dealer violated Illinois law which requires FOID in border states. What Illinois can do about it is another story.

If it was fine to him by someone in Wisconsin, that person could very well be up some related charges.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:30 pm Tweet appears to be down.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Wow. have they always released the names of charged minors?

https://www.okayplayer.com/news/kenosha ... oting.html

According to this he fled and was captured.
Last edited by LordMortis on Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

This is going to be a shit show. Trump is seizing on the looting/violence. The right wing will defend the kid to the end of the earth. I'm already seeing posts about how the 2nd shooting was justified because he was being swarmed by a mob - forget that the mob was chasing him because he just murdered someone down the street. :roll:

The left will latch onto the FB white nationalism / misogyny angle and access to guns as the below indicates. Everyone will see what they want to see and Trump may very well comes out ahead in this.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

LordMortis wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:39 pm Wow. have they always released the names of charged minors?
There are multiple videos of him talking to the live streamers and offering up his name - maybe they thought it was free fair game. I think the authorities announced it too. If you go upthread I posted a video where the police give him water and show support for these guys and his buddy mentions that the police told them they'd push the protesters their way to deal with them. Really. This is straight up out of control at multiple levels.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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malchior wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:40 pm I'm already seeing posts about how the 2nd shooting was justified because he was being swarmed by a mob - forget that the mob was chasing him because he just murdered someone down the street. :roll:

Clearly if the mob had just shot him it would have been all good.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:30 pm


If the kid is indeed from Illinois, it could be very problematic for someone. He's not allowed to purchase a firearm (18 for long guns and 21 for handguns) so someone had to have given it to him unless he got it in Wisconsin. It's legal to give him a long gun as long as he has a FOID, which would require notarized guardian signature since he's under 21 (FOID requires 21 or guardian signature).

If he bought it in Wisconsin, the dealer violated Illinois law which requires FOID in border states. What Illinois can do about it is another story.

If it was fine to him by someone in Wisconsin, that person could very well be up some related charges.
Oh, and you need to be 18 to open carry in Wisconsin. They should be IDing these idiots, bet they will start now.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:45 pm
malchior wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:40 pm I'm already seeing posts about how the 2nd shooting was justified because he was being swarmed by a mob - forget that the mob was chasing him because he just murdered someone down the street. :roll:

Clearly if the mob had just shot him it would have been all good.
Depends on what lens you look at it, right? We're completely cleaved into warring tribes.

Edit: Here is an example of what we'll see - right-wing internet troll Mike Cernovich has weighed in with expert commentary. You might know him from the picture of him throwing up the WP "ok" at the WH. Warning there is an embed of a slow motion version of the 2nd shooting. You know...because life happens...in slow motion. I also love the implicit invitation to weigh in on the street violence like it is a sporting event. We are in the abyss.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Smoove_B »

Sit down before viewing.


Police in Kenosha Wisconsin were giving water to white milita members and saying they "appreciate them being there" while assaulting protestors.

Later in the night, militia members shot protestors. Two people are now dead one in the hospital.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Did they arrest the killers?
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:44 pm Sit down before viewing.


Police in Kenosha Wisconsin were giving water to white milita members and saying they "appreciate them being there" while assaulting protestors.

Later in the night, militia members shot protestors. Two people are now dead one in the hospital.
Bam

The one with the backwards baseball hat who calls for water is the shooter at the later incident.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Smoove_B »

I believe there's a mercy rule for BAM when invoking a different thread. :wink:

But yes. All these topics are starting to cross-pollinate. Everything I post in the R&P COVID thread can likely also be posted in at least two other topic areas at this point.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Now that it's turning into what looks like unauthorized but police-backed militia vs. protesters, how quickly does that spiral out of complete control?

Trump's tweets are complete eyeroll material, too. He's slavering for more violence so he can try and bitch-slap some worthless Lib scum into submission. I didn't hear about any courthouses or federal monuments being threatened. Without that tether, can he actually deploy? I mean, I know he will - but would it be legal to send his personal soldiers to do the jobs of local cops (not that it matters)?
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Paingod wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:09 pm Now that it's turning into what looks like unauthorized but police-backed militia vs. protesters, how quickly does that spiral out of complete control?

Trump's tweets are complete eyeroll material, too. He's slavering for more violence so he can try and bitch-slap some worthless Lib scum into submission. I didn't hear about any courthouses or federal monuments being threatened. Without that tether, can he actually deploy? I mean, I know he will - but would it be legal to send his personal soldiers to do the jobs of local cops (not that it matters)?
Well, he can't just send the National Guard. The Governor has to request them and they are under the control of the Governor.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:13 pm
Paingod wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:09 pm Now that it's turning into what looks like unauthorized but police-backed militia vs. protesters, how quickly does that spiral out of complete control?

Trump's tweets are complete eyeroll material, too. He's slavering for more violence so he can try and bitch-slap some worthless Lib scum into submission. I didn't hear about any courthouses or federal monuments being threatened. Without that tether, can he actually deploy? I mean, I know he will - but would it be legal to send his personal soldiers to do the jobs of local cops (not that it matters)?
Well, he can't just send the National Guard. The Governor has to request them and they are under the control of the Governor.
Trump got Evers to agree apparently so he is going to take credit for it when we see soldiers on the streets no matter who is in charge. He wants photo ops to dazzle the rubes.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

Good call out from Biden. The man has heart and enough sense to walk the line here.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LordMortis »

Paingod wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:09 pm Now that it's turning into what looks like unauthorized but police-backed militia vs. protesters, how quickly does that spiral out of complete control?

Trump's tweets are complete eyeroll material, too. He's slavering for more violence so he can try and bitch-slap some worthless Lib scum into submission. I didn't hear about any courthouses or federal monuments being threatened. Without that tether, can he actually deploy? I mean, I know he will - but would it be legal to send his personal soldiers to do the jobs of local cops (not that it matters)?
When do the 3%ers come out against the police and feds to stand against government over reach and protect the populace?

(And no I don't actually want that either...)
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by $iljanus »

After the Bucks decided enough was enough they didn’t leave the locker room to play the Magic in tonight’s playoff game. The NBA decided to postpone all playoff games soon afterwards. Good for them for making a stand in the vein of Muhammad Ali, the black olympians who made the black power salute on the podium and others.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/26/spor ... oting.html
LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. — The N.B.A. postponed multiple playoff games on Wednesday after the Milwaukee Bucks boycotted their matchup with the Orlando Magic in protest of the police shooting of Jacob Blake, a Black man in Wisconsin.

The postponement affects first-round games between the Los Angeles Lakers and the Portland Trail Blazers, and between the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Houston Rockets. The games, including that of the Bucks and Magic, will be rescheduled.

The announcement came after the Magic were seen walking out of the arena and boarding their bus during what should have been Game 5 of their first-round series against the Bucks.

The boycott was an extraordinary escalation of how players have demonstrated for social causes this season, with numerous athletes speaking out against systemic racism and police brutality.

Players from the Boston Celtics and Toronto Raptors said Wednesday they were considering also boycotting the first game of their second-round playoff series on Thursday night.
Lebron’s reaction with the Lakers refusing to play soon after:

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Re: Police Reform in America

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Commas matter, man.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Enough »

MLB is playing ball now too, Brewers and Reds agree to boycott tonight's game and will not forfeit.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:04 pm Commas matter, man.
Depends who the man is.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Enough wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:18 pm MLB is playing ball now too, Brewers and Reds agree to boycott tonight's game and will not forfeit.
So playing ball by not playing ball? :)

I am really uplifted to see this type of support to be serious though. The message is important at a time like this. Trump wants us divided and angry. I don't think we can heal the divide but remaining positive on the right side of this is more important than a game played in front of an empty stadium.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

malchior wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:57 pm
Enough wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:18 pm MLB is playing ball now too, Brewers and Reds agree to boycott tonight's game and will not forfeit.
So playing ball by not playing ball? :)

I am really uplifted to see this type of support to be serious though. The message is important at a time like this. Trump wants us divided and angry. I don't think we can heal the divide but remaining positive on the right side of this is more important than a game played in front of an empty stadium.
I think it's a profound and noble gesture but unfortunately I'm afraid it's just going to wedge more.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

Oh it totally wedges more but I dont think it pushes people away who will alter any outcome.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Azza »

Huh. Curious. An entire page in a thread about racial disparity in policing devoted to yet another argument over "justification", a discussion that rests almost exclusively on the presupposition that police rely on lethal force equally against white and black Americans not following verbal commands. It follows, "Jacob was not shot 7 times in the back because of his skin color, but because he walked away/didn't comply/acted suspiciously!" And one onion layer beneath that exceedingly traditional defense of the police is the tacit statement and real argument: "So you see, had he been a white suspect the result would be the same."

Sure, Jan.

Days later and in the same city, Kyle Rittenhouse travels from out of state and murders two people and blows off the arm of a third, is subsequently chased to a Kenosha police line while people desperately shout he has killed actual human beings... and is allowed to pass without even being questioned, assault rifle in tow. He is arrested peacefully in his home state while the same police department holds a press event defending the double homicide as an attempt to break up violence and keep the peace. Rittenhouse got a bottle of water and verbal appreciation, Dylann Roof got burger king.

And the Kenosha sheriff...



But yeah, probably too premature to bring racism and police misconduct into the discussion, letswaitforthewholestorybeforejumpingtoconclusionssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.
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Alefroth
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Alefroth »

Here is the end of the shooting video where the cops let the shooter approach as if he were no threat at all.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Enough »

Alefroth wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:57 pm Here is the end of the shooting video where the cops let the shooter approach as if he were no threat at all.

I mean they probably remembered he was the nice boy they gave water to a few minutes earlier.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Skinypupy »

Jesus, why did I watch that?

Disgusted, infuriated, and depressed simultaneously.
For those accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Enough »

Here's when the police gave Kyle water right before he murdered people (can't figure out how to git rid of the lead tweet):



https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/statu ... 6763638786
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

And here we go - go go gadget fascism!

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