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Police Reform in America

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malchior
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

As an aside - Greg Doucette is a treasure. He has documented almost 900 instances of police violence since May. He often cross references things when they things that were alleged get confirmed. For example, in Charlotte the police intentionally kettled a crowd and tear gassed them to punish them. Earning a supervisor a 2-week suspension. He intentionally violated an entire crowd's constitutional rights ... this seems a bit light to me. The major point is you can spend days going through his threads and see that police violence is often punitive, reactionary or out of control, and widespread across the nation. We have a massive problem with the police and this guy has all the receipts.

Edit: This is a reference to the bottom tweet since the threading picked up 2 tweets.

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ImLawBoy
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by ImLawBoy »

Azza wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:44 pm Huh. Curious. An entire page in a thread about racial disparity in policing devoted to yet another argument over "justification", a discussion that rests almost exclusively on the presupposition that police rely on lethal force equally against white and black Americans not following verbal commands. It follows, "Jacob was not shot 7 times in the back because of his skin color, but because he walked away/didn't comply/acted suspiciously!" And one onion layer beneath that exceedingly traditional defense of the police is the tacit statement and real argument: "So you see, had he been a white suspect the result would be the same."

Sure, Jan.

. . . .

But yeah, probably too premature to bring racism and police misconduct into the discussion, letswaitforthewholestorybeforejumpingtoconclusionssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.
I mean, I admire your passion, but racism and police misconduct have been brought into the discussion, and extensively. Is it too egotistical to quote myself? (Trick question: I'm egotistical, so I don't care.)
ImLawBoy wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:23 am One way to look at this, and there's no way to know the answer to this with certainty, is to ask whether a white suspect would have been shot in this same scenario. Even assuming that this is ultimately determined that this is a justified shooting by the officer, if the police would not have (or would have been less likely to) shoot a white person in the same situation, that's a problem.
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Paingod
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Paingod »

malchior wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:43 pm As an aside - Greg Doucette is a treasure.

...

We have a massive problem with the police and this guy has all the receipts.
I genuinely appreciate efforts like this. I'm glad there are people out there with the connections, ability, and time to create solid documentation.

I hope he stays safe. I'm willing to put money on there being a lot of cops itching to find a "legal" way to silence him. Light is the enemy of darkness and this dude's pushing 100,000 lumens.
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malchior
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

The Kenosha police chief defending the shooter. Really. It is chock full of the usual cop framing. He is essentially defending him like he would if one of his officers was involved.

Edit: The separate quote below at the end says much -- a Trump-y denial to send a clear message that the vigilantes aren't welcome.


During the Kenosha Police Department’s first press conference in response to the Blake shooting and subsequent protests, Chief Daniel Miskinis blamed the unidentified victims in Tuesday night’s shooting for their own deaths, saying the violence was the result of the “persons” involved violating curfew:

Persons who were out after the curfew became engaged in some type of disturbance, and persons were shot. Everybody involved was out after the curfew. I’m not going to make a great deal of that, but the point is the curfew is in place to protect. Had persons not been out involved in violation of that, perhaps the situation that unfolded would not have happened.

...

In describing the shooting of two protesters, Miskinis also declined to call it a homicide and instead referred to it by various euphemisms often used to describe killings by a police officer, which Rittenhouse is not. He said that the shooter “was involved in the use of firearms to resolve whatever conflict was in place” and that there was a “disturbance that led to the use of deadly force.”

Additionally, Miskinis refused to comment on the video of Blake’s shooting, but offered that there may have been a reasonable explanation for the man being shot seven times in the back, which has reportedly left him paralyzed and in critical condition. (The officer has been put on administrative leave and has not been fired or arrested.)

...

When asked about the vigilante groups, Miskinis defended them as civilians out to protect property and “exercise their constitutional right.”

“Across this nation there have been armed civilians who have come out to exercise their constitutional right and to potentially protect property,” he said. “Am I aware that groups exist? Yes, but they weren’t invited to come.”

Miskinis’ views of the gathering of vigilante groups that reportedly led to the killing of two local men appears to be very much in line with those of his department. Before the shooting, officers in armored vehicles could be seen giving water to armed men gathered with the alleged shooter and telling them, “We appreciate you guys, we really do.” After the killings, the alleged shooter walked slowly past a series of police vehicles with his arms raised and was allowed to simply walk away. (It’s not yet clear what the officers knew about the shooting at the time, but the shots were audible in nearby footage.)

When asked why his officers had given the armed men water and thanked them, Miskinis said, “Our deputies would toss a water to anybody” and “You’re asking me to tell you what one person did. I can’t tell you that.” In explaining why his officers were able to show such restraint with Tuesday’s shooter, he blamed the “high stress” situation on the scene and possible “tunnel vision” on the part of his officers.
Toward the end of his comments, Miskinis was asked about the vigilante groups and again compared them to the protesters who had violated curfew, saying both sides were to blame.

“It’s no different than those on the protesters’ side who are walking around armed and those who are counterprotesters, or those who are just witnessing, to be armed, so I’m not going to address any more issues relative to that,” he said.

When asked if he wanted the vigilante groups to be present again after Wednesday night’s curfew, Miskinis refused to reply.

“I just said I’m not going to answer any more questions,” he said.

When asked again, he again refused to say. “I’m done talking about that,” Miskinis said.
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$iljanus
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by $iljanus »

If he had just said that the curfew is in place to keep everyone safe and armed citizens would just add to the potential for mishaps to happen it would have been reasonable. Instead he just doubled down and I'm certain that if it was a black protester who threw a brick and killed someone he would have been a bit more forceful in his response.

Fuck that shit, he needs to go.
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malchior
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

$iljanus wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:35 am If he had just said that the curfew is in place to keep everyone safe and armed citizens would just add to the potential for mishaps to happen it would have been reasonable. Instead he just doubled down and I'm certain that if it was a black protester who threw a brick and killed someone he would have been a bit more forceful in his response.

Fuck that shit, he needs to go.
Also to consider, he is making these comments next to a complete other asshole - Sheriff Beth (Azza has a quote from the video below posted above). It is sort of telling that when you dig into these incidents the leadership are real prizes to humanity.

For context, the headline of the Tweet is a bit inaccurate. AFAIK he isn't in charge of the Kenosha PD - that'd be Miskinis. Beth is charge of the Sheriff's. The Noah clip is a bonus ... I thought it was good.

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Paingod »

Meanwhile, in May in Arizona, a man is shot dead (reddit thread, incl. video) for answering the pounding at his door at night mostly naked, but armed. When he realizes it's the cops, he puts the gun behind his back, his free hand up, and drops to his knees - yelling "whoa-whoa-whoa" - and is then executed. I don't expect any rioting or protests, but I do hope the shooter is held accountable.

Watching the video, like the others, is not easy. The cops don't even know if they're in the right place and the man bleeds out in front of his partner while she wails.

*Edit: I did add that it was May - but after you had copied/pasted for the reply. My bad.
Last edited by Paingod on Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Paingod wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:13 pm Meanwhile, in Arizona, a man is shot dead (reddit thread, incl. video) for answering the pounding at his door at night mostly naked, but armed. When he realizes it's the cops, he puts the gun behind his back, his free hand up, and drops to his knees - and is then executed. I don't expect any rioting or protests, but I do hope the shooter is held accountable.

Watching the video, like the others, is not easy. The cops don't even know if they're in the right place and the man bleeds out in front of his partner while she wails.
Bodycam timestamp says it was May 22, 2020. Doesn't change the fact that it's terrible bit it's not exactly "meanwhile".

Don't get how they can let a guy bleed out like that, not rendering any aid. My guess is they were in shock and/or knew this was a big fuck up. Note how they keep talking about the gun, setting up their defense.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Kurth »

$iljanus wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:35 am If he had just said that the curfew is in place to keep everyone safe and armed citizens would just add to the potential for mishaps to happen it would have been reasonable. Instead he just doubled down and I'm certain that if it was a black protester who threw a brick and killed someone he would have been a bit more forceful in his response.

Fuck that shit, he needs to go.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Police attitudes can change. Remember when the police treated domestic violence like a joke? After the OJ trial, no mas.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:20 pm
Paingod wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:13 pm Meanwhile, in Arizona, a man is shot dead (reddit thread, incl. video) for answering the pounding at his door at night mostly naked, but armed. When he realizes it's the cops, he puts the gun behind his back, his free hand up, and drops to his knees - and is then executed. I don't expect any rioting or protests, but I do hope the shooter is held accountable.

Watching the video, like the others, is not easy. The cops don't even know if they're in the right place and the man bleeds out in front of his partner while she wails.
Bodycam timestamp says it was May 22, 2020. Doesn't change the fact that it's terrible bit it's not exactly "meanwhile".

Don't get how they can let a guy bleed out like that, not rendering any aid. My guess is they were in shock and/or knew this was a big fuck up. Note how they keep talking about the gun, setting up their defense.
Then the union rep shows up. He shuts up. Gets 3 days of coaching and then utters the words, "I feared for my life". Most likely case closed. Worst case, they say he violated use of force. He might get charged or fired...down the line he gets found not guilty and then eventually sues, an arbitrator paid by the union gives him his job back, and back pay. And...that covers probably well north of 99% of police shootings.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

Maybe the Secret Service needs bodycams. The shooting outside the WH has a dispute of facts between the officers involved and the person shot. The officers involved claim the shot man announced he was armed and then reached for what later was found to be a comb. The man's attorney says he made no threat.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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malchior wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:51 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:20 pm
Paingod wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:13 pm Meanwhile, in Arizona, a man is shot dead (reddit thread, incl. video) for answering the pounding at his door at night mostly naked, but armed. When he realizes it's the cops, he puts the gun behind his back, his free hand up, and drops to his knees - and is then executed. I don't expect any rioting or protests, but I do hope the shooter is held accountable.

Watching the video, like the others, is not easy. The cops don't even know if they're in the right place and the man bleeds out in front of his partner while she wails.
Bodycam timestamp says it was May 22, 2020. Doesn't change the fact that it's terrible bit it's not exactly "meanwhile".

Don't get how they can let a guy bleed out like that, not rendering any aid. My guess is they were in shock and/or knew this was a big fuck up. Note how they keep talking about the gun, setting up their defense.
Then the union rep shows up. He shuts up. Gets 3 days of coaching and then utters the words, "I feared for my life". Most likely case closed. Worst case, they say he violated use of force. He might get charged or fired...down the line he gets found not guilty and then eventually sues, an arbitrator paid by the union gives him his job back, and back pay. And...that covers probably well north of 99% of police shootings.
I don't necessarily blame the cops on the scene here. I mean, yes, in the sense that they didn't do their job and made a mistake. And yes in the sense that there are probably a whole host of systemic failures that put them in that place at that time. But it's not like the shooter here was fueled by malice or hate or racism. It's a person in a high stress situation making a bad call. One that's fueled by fear and instincts of self-preservation.

Too many guns. But hey, how 'bout that Second Amendment!
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Re: Police Reform in America

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I'm trying to process how you don't blame the police except for how they didn't do their job and made a mistake and there is a host of systemic failures that put them there. What is left to not blame them for? Is it just a knee-jerk to say you don't blame the police? (not you specifically, but in general)
Last edited by Alefroth on Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Woot woot. I can still recognize an Onion headline.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Alefroth wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:15 pm I'm trying to process how you don't blame the police except for how they didn't do their job and made a mistake and there is a host of systemic failures that put them there. Is it just a knee-jerk to say you don't blame the police? (not you specifically, but in general)
Yeah, my bad. I agree that was not the clearest post.

What I was trying to say was that I do blame the cops on the scene for not doing a better job of processing what was going on in that moment, but I think most of the blame lies beyond those individual cops. I wouldn’t even necessarily take this shooting as sufficient support for the judgment that these were bad cops. They were called to the scene for a domestic disturbance, they announced themselves as Phoenix Police, and the guy answered the door with a gun in his hand. That he got shot doesn’t strike me as a shocking outcome.

To be clear, I’m not saying he deserved to get shot by any stretch. Just that this kind of police shooting doesn’t motivate me to get out and protest the way other shootings and instances of excessive use of force do.

Not a knee-jerk reaction to not blame the police, but, to me, It does seem a little out of place in a discussion of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and Stephon Clark and Philando Castile and on and on.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

Right wingers are saying this is the consequence of the protests. The claim this is because the police are afraid to do their jobs and don't want to risk more riots. Mmkay.

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Re: Police Reform in America

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Well, that cop just fucking lost his job - I would hope.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Unagi wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:11 am Well, that cop just fucking lost his job - I would hope.
All I can think of is that the guy had some kind of get out of jail free card. At first I thought he might be an off duty cop but they wouldn't let him wander off into traffic like that if he was.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

In grad school a friend of mine got wasted, tried to drive home, and immediately slammed into another car. I was amazed that when the cops came they didn't arrest him or even give him a breathalyzer. They didn't let him get back in his car (he walked to my place to sleep it off), but I don't think he even got a ticket.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:08 am
Unagi wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:11 am Well, that cop just fucking lost his job - I would hope.
All I can think of is that the guy had some kind of get out of jail free card.
But does that even exist when a half dozen people are recording it on their phones, and he's so demonstrably sloshed?
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:59 am In grad school a friend of mine got wasted, tried to drive home, and immediately slammed into another car. I was amazed that when the cops came they didn't arrest him or even give him a breathalyzer. They didn't let him get back in his car (he walked to my place to sleep it off), but I don't think he even got a ticket.
That's some Chappelle level enforcement.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

This will certainly have the intended effect...
A federal intelligence alert obtained by the ABC7 I-Team has gone out to Chicago-area law enforcement with an ominous warning: nearly three dozen cold-blooded street gangs "have formed a pact to 'shoot on-sight any cop that has a weapon drawn on any subject in public'."

The "situational information report" from FBI officials in Chicago dated August 26, 2020, states "members of these gang factions have been actively searching for, and filming, police officers in performance of their official duties. The purpose of which is to catch on film an officer drawing his/her weapon on any subject and the subsequent 'shoot on-sight' of said officer, in order to garner national media attention."


...

For CPD Superintendent David Brown there is an overall "sense of lawlessness" currently being dealt with by those who serve and protect. Although not commenting directly on the FBI alert, Brown on Monday said the danger to police officers is real and increasing.

"I think it's bigger than a suggestion," Supt. Brown said. "I think 51 officers being shot at or shot in one year, I think that quadruples any previous year in Chicago's history. So I think it's more than a suggestion that people are seeking to do harm to cops."

This comes after a gruesome weekend in Chicago in which 54 people were shot including two Chicago police officers. The CPD officers are expected to live but ten people died from gunshot wounds during the time span.
And those two weren't the only ones shot at.

As the phrase goes, "stay fetal."
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

A bad turn. This is like the street gangs are acting like the police are an occupying force. From a pure abstract viewpoint - it's interesting that they almost describe an informal ROE from the gang side.
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Can we ship Robocop from Detroit to Chicago, stat?
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

Huh. It's almost like Operation Legend is a scheme to suppress people's Constitutional right to protest and stoke violence.



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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

I see that the Portland police still are in control of themselves. The man in the clip below was charged with assault on a police officer. :roll:

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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

Hmm...so 'Minority Report' comes to life. Fantastic.

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Re: Police Reform in America

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WTF?
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Isgrimnur »

Sounds like a 4th Amendment lawsuit ripe for the filing.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Defiant »

Did they hunt down and harass themselves first?
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

In any other administration the reports and officer lawsuits probably would have resulted in the agency being investigated by the Federal government.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Daveman »

Seems everyone likens that story to Minority Report... am I the only one who immediately thought of Captain America: Winter Soldier and Hydra's algorithm?
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Re: Police Reform in America

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Daveman wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:48 am Seems everyone likens that story to Minority Report... am I the only one who immediately thought of Captain America: Winter Soldier and Hydra's algorithm?
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by Pyperkub »

California failed to pass any police reform bills in this summer session.

If it can't get done in California, I'm seeing these problems getting worse and worse no matter what happens in November. Ubiquitous cameras will ensure we keep seeing the impact of a militarized police with little accountability, a lot of ingrained racial bias /fear and shoot to kill training.

They will, of course, be a lot worse and continue escalating if Trump and the GOP don't get blown out, but it will be very hard to get meaningful reforms passed even if Biden and the dems sweep in November.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

I don't expect any police reform of any measurable impact to pass. I predict over time that many will come to recognize that we are a quasi police state. People underestimate how dangerous the police are and how much control they have in our nation right now -- hint hint does this sound familiar? They have no accountability and essentially ignore civilian leadership. They have synergistic relationships with the powerful and they are a financial and moral/ethical drain on our society.

The spiral described above is a fairly likely outcome. That is why I have advocated radical reform of police policy. However it is probably impossible to accomplish. I would hazard we won't even see mild reforms -- even something as mild as recommending switching from enforcer/warrior to guardian training of civilian police forces likely won't fly. I think we just have to unfortunately watch this play out. I wish I could say I see this ending soon or positively but America has massive problems and many people embrace the darkness.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by malchior »

Proud Boys beat down BLM members with weapons - the police for once intevene and proud boys get arrested - they shoot the shit with the police - released approximately an hour later.





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Re: Police Reform in America

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13 year old autistic boy has an emotional episode while mom is at work. Mom calls the police to check on him. Kid gets scared when cops show up, runs away. Cops shoot him multiple times in the back.
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Re: Police Reform in America

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Skinypupy wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:37 pm 13 year old autistic boy has an emotional episode while mom is at work. Mom calls the police to check on him. Kid gets scared when cops show up, runs away. Cops shoot him multiple times in the back.
Salt Lake police did say all of their officers are CIT trained, so the officers that arrived at the house would have had experience dealing with mental illness.
Yeah, and I have annual training in corporate compliance. Doesn't make me a compliance officer.


I think a lot of the ideas about letting behavioral health specialists handle domestics are pie-in-the-sky but I'll be happy to be proven wrong. The trouble is, no one is actually doing it. If every officer is a CIT officer, you don't actually have specially trained officers.
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