Octopus Overlords

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:12 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:03 am I think this thread is probably the only place in the world where anyone is talking about Biden picking Condoleeza Rice for VP.

All of those columns are stupid, and written by stupid people who sit around and pine for the "good old days" of "bipartisan cooperation" which were actually quite bad old days where the two parties cooperated mostly to discriminate against people of color.

No, I haven't read any of the columns, but work in politics long enough and you know exactly what sort of "political independent" columnist gets paid to write that pablum.

It is not unreasonable for Democratic Party to want a Democrat on the ticket. That goes for Condolleza Rice as well as Bernie Sanders.

That reminds me of a question I have. Why the hell did the Dems not change their policy regarding Inds running for their nomination after 2016 when Bernie made a mess of that. Why are they allowing a non-Dem to compete to be their party's candidate at all? If he wants to be an Ind then let him run as one. Why should he be allowed access to the party resources?

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:44 pm That reminds me of a question I have. Why the hell did the Dems not change their policy regarding Inds running for their nomination after 2016 when Bernie made a mess of that. Why are they allowing a non-Dem to compete to be their party's candidate at all? If he wants to be an Ind then let him run as one. Why should he be allowed access to the party resources?

Bernie officially joined the party for the 2015-16 and 2019-20 election seasons.

You could make a case that the Bernie Bros put Trump in the White House. I believe Bernie regrets that.

Jaymann wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:09 pm You could make a case that the Bernie Bros put Trump in the White House. I believe Bernie regrets that.

I don't know if this is true, but one of the Berner talking points is that more Hillary supporters went for McCain in 2008 than Bernie supporters went for Trump in 2016. (I don't know how Bernie-to-Stein voters figure here.)

In any case, Bernie has been behaving like a loyal Democrat since losing the nomination this time, and it seems to be helping.

Fireball wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:31 am

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:12 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:03 am I think this thread is probably the only place in the world where anyone is talking about Biden picking Condoleeza Rice for VP.

All of those columns are stupid, and written by stupid people who sit around and pine for the "good old days" of "bipartisan cooperation" which were actually quite bad old days where the two parties cooperated mostly to discriminate against people of color.

No, I haven't read any of the columns, but work in politics long enough and you know exactly what sort of "political independent" columnist gets paid to write that pablum.

Maybe so, but from a long-term health of the country prespective (most particularly *not* a "tilt the Dems to the right"), I do believe that a step similar to this could (would?) head off an even more dire conflict.

From your more insider-y standpoint FB, in what ways can sane Liberals help to cure the insane 21st Century GOP?

I look at this and yearn for a way to bring the GOP back to the light.

According to its 2016 manifesto, the Republican Party lies far from the Conservative Party in Britain and the Christian Democratic Union in Germany — mainstream right-leaning parties — and closer to far-right parties like Alternative for Germany, whose platform contains plainly xenophobic, anti-Muslim statements.

And given post-2016 developments, they are staunchly moving even further to the extreme. How do we change this? How can the worst of the worst that the current GOP relies upon and which is making them more insane daily be muted? In many ways, I think that the best moment to do this is in finding the best way to leverage how insane Trump and his enablers have been the way the Lincoln Project is doing, but it kind of has to be done while the GOP is still in power and playing defense, rather than after a Biden election and in full attack mode.

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:22 pm

Alefroth wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:06 pm

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:54 pm

Alefroth wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:52 pm

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:46 pm who could short circuit all the partisan bs and misinformation and possibly undercut McConnell and shift the GOP towards a more moderate position.

How would she do any of that?

The same way the Lincoln Project is. She could be a lever to get GOP members in Congress to break away from the Groupthink. They call her a RINO, and she points out how far they've strayed from their actual positions, and raises the question of what a true RINO is - one who follows the groupthink, or one who can place Country over Party and actually Govern.

I'm not optimistic that that is even close to what would happen.

Getting Rice, Powell, and Romney to campaign for Biden would just be the end of their cred with the GOP. Providing they even want to.

Got any other ideas? IMHO, for the Country to be the best it can be, the current GOP needs be weaned away from the heroin-laced kool-ade they are currently addicted to, and I don't see many other ways which don't eventually involve bloodshed, and failure to do so probably leads to the GOP running a totalitarian state in perpetuity at some point.

I don't think it's up to the Dems to fix the GOP. If they want a moderate, let them run one. Otherwise, let the moderates form a new party. Dems should continue to support progressive platforms and candidates, make voting easier, and work for accurate representation in DC.

Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:54 pm

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:22 pm

Alefroth wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:06 pm

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:54 pm

Alefroth wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:52 pm

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:46 pm who could short circuit all the partisan bs and misinformation and possibly undercut McConnell and shift the GOP towards a more moderate position.

How would she do any of that?

The same way the Lincoln Project is. She could be a lever to get GOP members in Congress to break away from the Groupthink. They call her a RINO, and she points out how far they've strayed from their actual positions, and raises the question of what a true RINO is - one who follows the groupthink, or one who can place Country over Party and actually Govern.

I'm not optimistic that that is even close to what would happen.

Getting Rice, Powell, and Romney to campaign for Biden would just be the end of their cred with the GOP. Providing they even want to.

Got any other ideas? IMHO, for the Country to be the best it can be, the current GOP needs be weaned away from the heroin-laced kool-ade they are currently addicted to, and I don't see many other ways which don't eventually involve bloodshed, and failure to do so probably leads to the GOP running a totalitarian state in perpetuity at some point.

I don't think it's up to the Dems to fix the GOP. If they want a moderate, let them run one. Otherwise, let the moderates form a new party. Dems should continue to support progressive platforms and candidates, make voting easier, and work for accurate representation in DC.

Not necessarily speaking as a Dem, more as a Citizen who loves his Country, and wants to make it better - maybe even feels a duty to do so. From a that perspective, just supporting everything you mentioned as a Dem isn't really getting us anywhere, and more appears to be needed.

As I've learned from The Relentless Moon - Work the Problem.

What ways have the best chance of success at restoring sanity to our bi-polar nation with the least harm?

Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:54 pmI don't think it's up to the Dems to fix the GOP. If they want a moderate, let them run one. Otherwise, let the moderates form a new party. Dems should continue to support progressive platforms and candidates, make voting easier, and work for accurate representation in DC.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the Democrats are Progressive. More Progressive than the Republicans, maybe, but that's a pretty low bar. Currently, the Democrats (taken nationally) are a very moderate party. There are certainly Progressive elements and districts, but those are very far from the majority.

However, I agree with you that it's the not the Dem's job to fix the GOP. If, as I suspect, the GOP gets hammered in November, then it's up to them to put in the work to make themselves into something electable again.

Little Raven wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:05 pm

Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:54 pmI don't think it's up to the Dems to fix the GOP. If they want a moderate, let them run one. Otherwise, let the moderates form a new party. Dems should continue to support progressive platforms and candidates, make voting easier, and work for accurate representation in DC.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the Democrats are Progressive. More Progressive than the Republicans, maybe, but that's a pretty low bar. Currently, the Democrats (taken nationally) are a very moderate party. There are certainly Progressive elements and districts, but those are very far from the majority.

However, I agree with you that it's the not the Dem's job to fix the GOP. If, as I suspect, the GOP gets hammered in November, then it's up to them to put in the work to make themselves into something electable again.

At the moment, the Democratic party is where progressive ideas and candidates have the best chance of succeeding.

Holman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:54 pm

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:44 pm That reminds me of a question I have. Why the hell did the Dems not change their policy regarding Inds running for their nomination after 2016 when Bernie made a mess of that. Why are they allowing a non-Dem to compete to be their party's candidate at all? If he wants to be an Ind then let him run as one. Why should he be allowed access to the party resources?

Bernie officially joined the party for the 2015-16 and 2019-20 election seasons.

Did he then "unjoin" between? I swear I have seen him labeled Ind multiple times recently.

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:58 pm Not necessarily speaking as a Dem, more as a Citizen who loves his Country, and wants to make it better - maybe even feels a duty to do so. From a that perspective, just supporting everything you mentioned as a Dem isn't really getting us anywhere, and more appears to be needed.

As I've learned from The Relentless Moon - Work the Problem.

As a citizen, I feel it's my duty to reject the GOP at every turn.

What ways have the best chance of success at restoring sanity to our bi-polar nation with the least harm?

I'm sure I don't know (and I really don't think it can be fixed), but I don't think the answer is treating the GOP as if it wasn't completely broken.

Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:26 pm

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:58 pm Not necessarily speaking as a Dem, more as a Citizen who loves his Country, and wants to make it better - maybe even feels a duty to do so. From a that perspective, just supporting everything you mentioned as a Dem isn't really getting us anywhere, and more appears to be needed.

As I've learned from The Relentless Moon - Work the Problem.

As a citizen, I feel it's my duty to reject the GOP at every turn.

What ways have the best chance of success at restoring sanity to our bi-polar nation with the least harm?

I'm sure I don't know (and I really don't think it can be fixed), but I don't think the answer is treating the GOP as if it wasn't completely broken.

+1,000

Lest we never forget:

Birthers
Tan Suit
Benghazi
Email investigations
Pizzagate
Kavanaugh

These scum deserve no quarter.

Oh, I accept that the GOP is broken, but there are pockets of sanity (see Lincoln Project, John Kasich) etc. which could be nurtured. I do see a value in having fiscally responsible (not the current hypocrites who call themselves fiscally conservative), libertarian-leaning, free-market, business oriented, representatives, etc. in congress.

Not the current hypocrites, but ones with integrity who will place Country over Party and can be a part of a functioning Government rather than just trying to blow it up from the inside.

I do think that right now is the best time to strategically take advantage of the internal dissatisfaction with the broken GOP which is 100% incapable of Governing a Democratic Republic, and makes it nigh impossible for the people who can Govern to do so.

If/when Biden wins, I see the forces perpetuating the broken/nazi/racist emphasis going 100% on the attack again with all the lies/misinformation and FUD again, just as they were able to in 2010, which fucked us for a decade and brought us here. The best, and maybe only time to break those forces is now, while they are in power and having to defend the consequences of their asinine stupidity. If/When Biden wins, they will be able to regroup, won't have to play defense, and can just attack anything and everything Biden does. God forbid he wear a Tan Suit or like mustard, for example.

I just turned 50 and after the last 25 years I feel like I’ve seen enough of the GOP to give them a lifetime ban. I’ve got 60 to 80 more years on this earth so I might live to see a better alternative but for me the party of Trump has earned this many times over.

I’m fine with the younger generation making their own choices but I’ve seen enough.

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:21 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:54 pm

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:44 pm That reminds me of a question I have. Why the hell did the Dems not change their policy regarding Inds running for their nomination after 2016 when Bernie made a mess of that. Why are they allowing a non-Dem to compete to be their party's candidate at all? If he wants to be an Ind then let him run as one. Why should he be allowed access to the party resources?

Bernie officially joined the party for the 2015-16 and 2019-20 election seasons.

Did he then "unjoin" between? I swear I have seen him labeled Ind multiple times recently.

Sanders has changed his voter registration to Democratic in Vermont when he ran for president, and changed it back to the local equivalent of "Independent" in between his two runs. In the Senate, he has never formally joined the Democratic Party, as he was not elected as a Democrat, but he has always been a member of the Democratic Caucus.

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:03 pm Oh, I accept that the GOP is broken, but there are pockets of sanity (see Lincoln Project, John Kasich) etc. which could be nurtured. I do see a value in having fiscally responsible (not the current hypocrites who call themselves fiscally conservative), libertarian-leaning, free-market, business oriented, representatives, etc. in congress.

I know it's possible to attach positive meanings to those terms, but right now the two great crises facing our civilization are climate change and income inequality. I can't think of any way those ideas can help us deal with them.

The Dems are likely to come out of this election with significant political capital for dealing with those problems. We can't spare any for saving the GOP from itself.

Holman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:20 pm

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:03 pm Oh, I accept that the GOP is broken, but there are pockets of sanity (see Lincoln Project, John Kasich) etc. which could be nurtured. I do see a value in having fiscally responsible (not the current hypocrites who call themselves fiscally conservative), libertarian-leaning, free-market, business oriented, representatives, etc. in congress.

I know it's possible to attach positive meanings to those terms, but right now the two great crises facing our civilization are climate change and income inequality. I can't think of any way those ideas can help us deal with them.

The Dems are likely to come out of this election with significant political capital for dealing with those problems. We can't spare any for saving the GOP from itself.

Help? The biggest one I can come up with is just the cautionary ensuring that individual liberties are addressed, especially with regards to climate change. Having a strong advocate there who will compromise can certainly deliver a better long term program. The key is in not playing it for power.

Any Climate Change legislation/laws will definitely make the RW-Nazi rebound even worse if it is imposed and doesn't at least get some buy-in and support, in writing, and will then fail. Making Hard Choices and following through will only make everything more vulnerable to attacks, lies, misinformation, FUD, etc. in what will probably be a successful Party Power over Country move in 2024 by the RW Nazis without change.

If you thought the RW Nazi backlash to ACA and Obama which led us to Trump was bad, what do you see in 2024? How do we prevent/ameliorate that?

Add in the needed wealth inequality fixes, the Health Care fixes, etc. EVERY SINGLE THING will be under constant attack, and because they all require sacrifice, will be really friggin' easy targets.

As such, any Dem fixes will be temporary at best, and given that they all require sacrifice, will be sacrificed on the quarterly gains pyre and the witches burned who dared suggest shared sacrifice.

What if McCain went thumbs up?

If the remaining GOP, whatever it is, isn't forced to be a part of those hard choices, buy in and commit, they will just be temporary.

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:33 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:20 pm

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:03 pm Oh, I accept that the GOP is broken, but there are pockets of sanity (see Lincoln Project, John Kasich) etc. which could be nurtured. I do see a value in having fiscally responsible (not the current hypocrites who call themselves fiscally conservative), libertarian-leaning, free-market, business oriented, representatives, etc. in congress.

I know it's possible to attach positive meanings to those terms, but right now the two great crises facing our civilization are climate change and income inequality. I can't think of any way those ideas can help us deal with them.

The Dems are likely to come out of this election with significant political capital for dealing with those problems. We can't spare any for saving the GOP from itself.

Help? The biggest one I can come up with is just the cautionary ensuring that individual liberties are addressed, especially with regards to climate change. Having a strong advocate there who will compromise can certainly deliver a better long term program. The key is in not playing it for power.

I can't think of any current champions of libertarian free-market Republicanism who would be anything but an obstacle to necessary measures, and certainly none in congress.

You can't wish them into being, and certainly not before November.

Any Climate Change legislation/laws will definitely make the RW-Nazi rebound even worse if it is imposed and doesn't at least get some buy-in and support, in writing, and will then fail. Making Hard Choices and following through will only make everything more vulnerable to attacks, lies, misinformation, FUD, etc. in what will probably be a successful Party Power over Country move in 2024 by the RW Nazis without change.

If you thought the RW Nazi backlash to ACA and Obama which led us to Trump was bad, what do you see in 2024? How do we prevent/ameliorate that?

They will treat the most moderate proposals the same way they will treat the most aggressive proposals. This is a party currently bleating that Joe Biden is an Antifa Black Power Marxist. The RW-Nazi rebound will not be tempered by our caution.

2024 will be 2024 no matter what we do, and we are running the fuck out of time.

Jaymann wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:09 pm You could make a case that the Bernie Hillary Bros put Trump in the White House. I believe Bernie regrets that.

FTFY

It's such a strange argument that Bernie or Stein or whoever else wasn't the Democratic nominee is somehow responsible for the failures of the Democratic nominee. If Hillary or Biden aren't able to appeal to enough voters to get themselves elected, that's on them, surely?

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:53 pm It's such a strange argument that Bernie or Stein or whoever else wasn't the Democratic nominee is somehow responsible for the failures of the Democratic nominee. If Hillary or Biden aren't able to appeal to enough voters to get themselves elected, that's on them, surely?

Hillary got 3 million more votes than Trump. In a country not hamstrung by an electoral college she would have been elected President.

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:53 pm It's such a strange argument that Bernie or Stein or whoever else wasn't the Democratic nominee is somehow responsible for the failures of the Democratic nominee. If Hillary or Biden aren't able to appeal to enough voters to get themselves elected, that's on them, surely?

I know a few people locally that supported Bernie and voted tRump because they felt Bernie was cheated out of the nomination. Personally though I thought that while Hillary was a very qualified candidate she ran a horrible campaign in Michigan. All her commercials were "I'm not tRump" rather than telling the voters what she would be doing on their behalf if elected. Its what worries me about this upcoming election. Hatred for the other guy rarely seems to turn out voters for the one you want to win.

Well, I think it's clear who RunningMn9's choice for VP is:

Joe Biden's vice presidential contender Rep. Karen Bass praised Scientology at a 2010 ceremony

I recently read the bio for Duckworth. holy jesus balls, Tom Cruise would look at that sequence of events and say, no, no thats not possible, one person could not do all those things. Lets tone it down a bit before filming. This script has to be realistic.

I have no idea about her politics, but there is someone who clearly understands the struggle.

As for helping the campaign, there are a lot of veterans in this country, and she clearly knows something about being a veteran and veteran affairs.

PRESIDENT DUCKWORTH

There's no news yet, right? I keep seeing stuff about how the pick is 'imminent', but haven't yet seen any links / suggestions about who the final choice will be (beyond the lists of contenders that we've discussed).

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:37 am There's no news yet, right? I keep seeing stuff about how the pick is 'imminent', but haven't yet seen any links / suggestions about who the final choice will be (beyond the lists of contenders that we've discussed).

Biden said he has a pick. Still I imagine there must be deep in-fighting for this not to be done almost 2 weeks into August so maybe it isn't truly settled, offered, and discussed with the VP candidate yet.

malchior wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:00 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:37 am There's no news yet, right? I keep seeing stuff about how the pick is 'imminent', but haven't yet seen any links / suggestions about who the final choice will be (beyond the lists of contenders that we've discussed).

Biden said he has a pick. Still I imagine there must be deep in-fighting for this not to be done almost 2 weeks into August so maybe it isn't truly settled, offered, and discussed with the VP candidate yet.

It's not unusual for the VP to be picked in mid-August. And Palin and Biden himself were picked at the very end of August.

You know, I would imagine that the conventions are less likely to be watched this year, since they're going to be virtual (although I suppose it's possible that since people are mostly home, they'll be more watched?). If it is less watched, maybe it makes more sense to announce the pick *at* the convention, to increase ratings?

Defiant wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:04 am

malchior wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:00 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:37 am There's no news yet, right? I keep seeing stuff about how the pick is 'imminent', but haven't yet seen any links / suggestions about who the final choice will be (beyond the lists of contenders that we've discussed).

Biden said he has a pick. Still I imagine there must be deep in-fighting for this not to be done almost 2 weeks into August so maybe it isn't truly settled, offered, and discussed with the VP candidate yet.

It's not unusual for the VP to be picked in mid-August. And Palin and Biden himself were picked at the very end of August.

That's fair. I was framing this (solely in my head) in the context of this year's event. There were indications that VP season had started early this year. And there was some noise they had narrowed it down significantly early in the process. They've been a little cagey on the whole thing so I think there has been some expectation that they were going to announce early.

The advantage here is dangling different candidates as possible favorites and seeing what reactions they get and, more importantly, what type of trash the GOP tries to dig up on the individual. Then pick the one with the best benefit/risk ratio.

Freyland wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:25 am The advantage here is dangling different candidates as possible favorites and seeing what reactions they get and, more importantly, what type of trash the GOP tries to dig up on the individual. Then pick the one with the best benefit/risk ratio.

I suppose that serves as a double-check on any oppo research that the Biden team has done on any of the candidates. After all, every candidate has a long history, and there are only so many staff members and hours of the day. So float a name, wait a few days and see what the media comes up with, and decide whether there's anything too problematic that the team didn't already uncover.

That's what happened with Karen Bass. Her name is floated and in a matter of days videos surfaced of her praising Scientology. I imagine that anyone who has a been a public servant for any length of time has at least a few of those sorts of videos floating around.

In 2008, Obama announced Biden as his pick on August 22, less than a week before the convention.

So I am still in the running, is what I am hearing.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:50 am So I am still in the running, is what I am hearing.

There is that whole "it will be a woman" thing, but yeah, otherwise you have a shot!

In this timeline, I'm still not convinced he won't name Hillary.