The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

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Anonymous Bosch
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The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

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Kudos to Democratic Denver Mayor Michael B. Hancock and the Denver Director of Safety Murphy Robinson for presenting the most coherent response and compelling condemnation of all the nihilistic violence spreading across the nation I've yet seen from any U.S. elected official. I encourage everyone to watch the full video of their news conference below:



Mayor Hancock, Denver police discuss Saturday night destruction around DPD HQ
KDVR.com wrote:Enlarge Image

DENVER (KDVR) — Denver Mayor Michael B. Hancock, Denver Director of Safety Murphy Robinson and Denver Police Chief Paul Pazen provided insight and made statements to the people involved in Saturday night’s incident at the Denver Police Department and the surrounding area.

“Last night was a riot in our city,” Hancock said. The demonstration became destructive when people threw fireworks at police, lit fires in the street, broke windows and sprayed graffiti on property.

“The anarchists that showed up last night brought weapons to the table. They had guns,” Denver Public Safety Director, Murphy Robinson said. “They brought explosives, axes, machetes, and had one intent purpose and that was to harm our officers.”

Hancock said in a Tweet following the news conference:
"Working for change in our democracy comes from peaceful protest and the ballot box. Inciting violence and vandalism is not about making change, it is about anarchy, chaos and mindless destruction. We will not tolerate it in the City of Denver.

Unfortunately, there is a toxic combination of organized efforts on the extreme left and organized efforts on the extreme right to exploit this time when our recovery as a country requires collaboration and cooperation.

What happened in Denver and across many other cities last night was not protest in the tradition of Martin Luther King, Jr. or John Lewis, and it does not reflect who we are as a community.

I am encouraging every elected official in our city – legislators, city council, school board and our clergy and civic leaders – to make clear in statements today that anarchy and vandalism dressed up as a protest will not be tolerated in Denver."
The Reddit post for the demonstration is called ‘Give Em Hell’ and stated the purpose was to demand to defund the police.

“Now I want to speak to you as a Black man and a Denver native,” Robinson said. “Stop using the color of my skin as an excuse to tear up my city. These countless acts are not helpful. They do not represent what Black Lives are about.”
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." — P. J. O'Rourke
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Little Raven
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Re: The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

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malchior
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Re: The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

Post by malchior »

Anonymous Bosch wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:38 pm Kudos to Democratic Denver Mayor Michael B. Hancock and the Denver Director of Safety Murphy Robinson for presenting the most coherent response and compelling condemnation of all the nihilistic violence spreading across the nation I've yet seen from any U.S. elected official.
Yeah that was a mess. It isn't helpful. I however take some issue with this characterization. While coherent - it wasn't an entirely honest response. There was a talk tough bluster component that seemed aimed at the audience of his police department and was not about lowering the temperature of the situation. It does little to stop the underlying issues that cause these riots. In fact, it perpetuates them. Threatening them with judicial action is more than appropriate but attacking their motives is not helpful. You won't end the violence if you deny them their voice which is what he effectively does here.

“The anarchists that showed up last night brought weapons to the table. They had guns,” Denver Public Safety Director, Murphy Robinson said. “They brought explosives, axes, machetes, and had one intent purpose and that was to harm our officers.”
This is where I come to question his response. If the 'anarchists' came to harm the officers, then why was only one officer injured? Not to say a 3rd degree burn and a concussion aren't serious injuries but that's some damn good luck if the groups' intent was to harm officers. Again that doesn't suggest it wasn't a riot but I don't believe him when he says they came with intent to harm the officers because otherwise...it would have happened. They had the means and the opportunity. The motive to injure the officers is what seems to be mostly absent considering the numbers present.

"Working for change in our democracy comes from peaceful protest and the ballot box. Inciting violence and vandalism is not about making change, it is about anarchy, chaos and mindless destruction. We will not tolerate it in the City of Denver.

Unfortunately, there is a toxic combination of organized efforts on the extreme left and organized efforts on the extreme right to exploit this time when our recovery as a country requires collaboration and cooperation.

What happened in Denver and across many other cities last night was not protest in the tradition of Martin Luther King, Jr. or John Lewis, and it does not reflect who we are as a community.

I am encouraging every elected official in our city – legislators, city council, school board and our clergy and civic leaders – to make clear in statements today that anarchy and vandalism dressed up as a protest will not be tolerated in Denver."
He could have just said this and been on very solid territory. I believe there needs to be an element of peace making here and fundamentally that is the missing ingredient consistently. Why do the police have so many issues? Lack of de-escalation and peace making. Why does the violence continue? No outreach. Lying about motives. Pounding on their chests. It is why this cycle will continue.
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Re: The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

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malchior wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:02 pmThere was a talk tough bluster component that seemed aimed at the audience of his police department and was not about lowering the temperature of the situation. It does little to stop the underlying issues that cause these riots. In fact, it perpetuates them.
Image

I'm honestly curious why you believe this. Ted Wheeler got tear gassed trying to "lower the temperature." Jacob Frey cried on stage. Lori Lightfoot felt the crowd's "righteous anger" and Kim Foxx declined to prosecute rioters, since she understood where they came from. Jenny Durkam gave the people the CHOP. And yet in each case, results have been....disappointing. Violence returns.

I suspect Michael Hancock is very deliberately trying a different approach. It's too early to say whether or not it will succeed, but I don't blame him for trying. Something about the definition of insanity comes to mind....
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Re: The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

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Little Raven wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:12 pm
malchior wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:02 pmThere was a talk tough bluster component that seemed aimed at the audience of his police department and was not about lowering the temperature of the situation. It does little to stop the underlying issues that cause these riots. In fact, it perpetuates them.
Image

I'm honestly curious why you believe this.
There is no need for a citation. It is my opinion. It is based on my readings about peace making (Galtung is a big influence) and we have a complete lack of it in this nation. The police in this nation stand out from every other advanced democracy in its brutality, its authoritarianism, and its militarism. And when the people show up to protest yes it often gets out of hand but time after time they are confronted with a militarized response that inflames the situation.

So what I heard here was someone representing those police without addressing why that crowd was there in the first place. Instead, he substituted a motive for their presence that wasn't born out by the outcome. It doesn't address the problem. And only reinforces what the protesters believed. That the state will continue to ignore them. That their approach plays into the police's hands is obviously a problem too but if we truly want the violence to end we need to address the problem. There needs to be a compromise and the police and in case these men are as usual completely resistant to any change to address the police problem we have.
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Re: The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

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malchior wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:00 pm And when the people show up to protest yes it often gets out of hand but time after time they are confronted with a militarized response that inflames the situation.
Right, because "people [who] show up to protest" armed with guns, explosives, axes, and machetes and commit violent and likely felonious acts of burglary, arson, assault, and vandalism aren't doing anything to inflame the situation or provoke an inevitable militarized response.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." — P. J. O'Rourke
malchior
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Re: The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

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Anonymous Bosch wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:27 pm
malchior wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:00 pm And when the people show up to protest yes it often gets out of hand but time after time they are confronted with a militarized response that inflames the situation.
Right, because "people [who] show up to protest" armed with guns, explosives, axes, and machetes and commit violent and likely felonious acts of burglary, arson, assault, and vandalism aren't doing anything to inflame the situation or provoke an inevitable militarized response.
i said that was counrerproductive but this has been happening well before this event. You can wag your finger at the "nihilists" all you want but this will get worse if there isn't a dialogue. Maybe not with them but with community leaders to address out of control police violence.
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Re: The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

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malchior wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:00 pmThere is no need for a citation.
I wasn't asking for a literal source, just hoping that you would expand on your reasoning. Because as far as I can tell, a LOT of cities have tried your approach, and the only one that can seemingly claim some level of success is Austin. I don't think burning buildings and looted stores is a very good backdrop for police reform. In fact, I think it's a downright terrible one. I could be wrong about that....God knows I'm wrong about all kinds of things. But I'm not going to blame the Denver mayor for not wanting to follow that crowd - evidence suggests what they're doing isn't working.
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Re: The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

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Little Raven wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:19 pm
malchior wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:00 pmThere is no need for a citation.
I wasn't asking for a literal source, just hoping that you would expand on your reasoning. Because as far as I can tell, a LOT of cities have tried your approach, and the only one that can seemingly claim some level of success is Austin.
It isnt my approach. It is basic peace making. The police are essentially warring with parts of the populace. We need to come together to solve a major problem. The idea is broad polIce reform is necessary at multiple levels. As far as I know that hasn't happened much of anywhere. And I dont know what you mean by a lot of cities or what you are referring to.
I don't think burning buildings and looted stores is a very good backdrop for police reform. In fact, I think it's a downright terrible one. I could be wrong about that....God knows I'm wrong about all kinds of things. But I'm not going to blame the Denver mayor for not wanting to follow that crowd - evidence suggests what they're doing isn't working.
This is missing the big picture. We are now in an escalating cycle of violence across the nation. The police nationwide have dug in and the politicians are not doing anything. In fact, some are egging on the violence. And in this environment, the police will continue to kill and brutalize people. People will record it and release it and continue the cycle.

My point about Denver is his words partially perpetuate that cycle. Calling it coherent is a matter of opinion but when it is essentially the usual police bluster...I dont find it all that profound in any way.
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Re: The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

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malchior wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:54 pm i said that was counrerproductive but this has been happening well before this event. You can wag your finger at the "nihilists" all you want but this will get worse if there isn't a dialogue. Maybe not with them but with community leaders to address out of control police violence.
It's not merely counterproductive, it's blatantly obvious violent criminal conduct that needs to be called out and condemned for what it is (which no one said or implied hasn't been happening well before this event). Conflating legitimate protest with mob violence and and watering it down with Newspeak circumlocution like "counterproductive" ain't likely to fool anyone with eyes in their head, and is the surest recipe for four more years of your favourite orange menace. As CNN's Don Lemon put it:
TheHill.com wrote:CNN's Don Lemon said Tuesday night that Democrats "ignoring" riots in some U.S. cities represents a "blind spot" for the party, and called on Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden to address the problem because it is "sticking" in polling and focus groups.

The perspective comes after deadly violence continued in Kenosha, Wis., with three shot and two dead amid rioting following the police shooting of Jacob Blake.

Lemon called Kenosha a “Rorschach test for the entire country" during his handoff with 9 p.m. anchor Chris Cuomo.

“It’s showing up in the polling. It’s showing up in focus groups. It is the only thing right now that is sticking,” Lemon said ahead of "CNN Tonight" on Tuesday. “The riots and the protests have become indistinguishable."

“I think this is a blind spot for Democrats. I think Democrats are ignoring this problem or hoping that it will go away, and it’s not going to go away,” he added before arguing the violence needs to be addressed by Biden before the election.

“The problem is not going to be fixed by [Election Day],” said Lemon. “But what they can do, and I think maybe Joe Biden may be afraid to do it … he’s got to address it. He’s got to come out and talk about it.”

“And they’re rioters, not protesters. They’re criminals,” he added.
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Re: The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

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Anonymous Bosch wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:42 pm
malchior wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:54 pm i said that was counrerproductive but this has been happening well before this event. You can wag your finger at the "nihilists" all you want but this will get worse if there isn't a dialogue. Maybe not with them but with community leaders to address out of control police violence.
It's not merely counterproductive, it's blatantly obvious violent criminal conduct that needs to be called out and condemned for what it is (which no one said or implied hasn't been happening well before this event). Conflating legitimate protest with mob violence and and watering it down with Newspeak circumlocution like "counterproductive"
And I'm out. You're not here for a conversation.
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Re: The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

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malchior wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:39 pmThe idea is broad polIce reform is necessary at multiple levels. As far as I know that hasn't happened much of anywhere.
That's not the kind of thing you can just do overnight. I mean, I guess you can take the CHOP approach, but I think relatively few people would support that. But you CAN get the process started, and a lot of cities have tried to calm the crowds by making moves in that direction. Seattle, Portland, Chicago, Minneapolis, Austin...all of them have put police reform at the top of the agenda. The results have been...decidedly mixed.

Denver is taking a different approach. It might not work, but I have a hard time saying it's likely to be LESS effective. Time will tell, I suppose.
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Re: The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

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Little Raven wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:22 pm
malchior wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:39 pmThe idea is broad polIce reform is necessary at multiple levels. As far as I know that hasn't happened much of anywhere.
That's not the kind of thing you can just do overnight. I mean, I guess you can take the CHOP approach, but I think relatively few people would support that. But you CAN get the process started, and a lot of cities have tried to calm the crowds by making moves in that direction. Seattle, Portland, Chicago, Minneapolis, Austin...all of them have put police reform at the top of the agenda. The results have been...decidedly mixed.
Of course it isn't overnight and it has to broad based. And mixed...you mean since May? Maybe the not overnight changes shouldn't be evaluated for efficacy just yet. ;)
Denver is taking a different approach. It might not work, but I have a hard time saying it's likely to be LESS effective. Time will tell, I suppose.
It isn't a different approach. That's my point. It is the status quo. It guaranteed won't work unless they hope to imprison a decent chunk of the population eventually. The beatings will continue until morale improves won't work anymore when everyone is carrying a cell phone around with them.
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Re: The most coherent response to 2020 nihilistic violence

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malchior wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:49 pm
Anonymous Bosch wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:42 pm
malchior wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:54 pm i said that was counrerproductive but this has been happening well before this event. You can wag your finger at the "nihilists" all you want but this will get worse if there isn't a dialogue. Maybe not with them but with community leaders to address out of control police violence.
It's not merely counterproductive, it's blatantly obvious violent criminal conduct that needs to be called out and condemned for what it is (which no one said or implied hasn't been happening well before this event). Conflating legitimate protest with mob violence and and watering it down with Newspeak circumlocution like "counterproductive"
And I'm out. You're not here for a conversation.
…because I ribbed you for using attenuated rhetoric?

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"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." — P. J. O'Rourke
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