White people are White

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Combustible Lemur
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Re: White people are White

Post by Combustible Lemur »

Follow up more directed at the OP.

My adult life has in a lot of ways been about realizing my whiteness and coming to terms with it. I worked 9 years in a 75% Latino/ LatinX community that was also 20% black. I grew up in a 54% white community 30, 20ish. So growing up, Texas white was the predominate culture, in the house college educated blue collar values first. Were definitely in the camp that systemic racism is just lack of personal will, racism is bad, but liberals are worse. By being around POC, learning superficially about other cultures, and loathing Racism I fell into this weird sense of inoculation against racism. I felt like if I was sincere and supportive and called out RACISTS. I couldn't be perpetuating racism. As I got older, I kept seeing instances and reliving memories after reading listening more of how much racism was part of my daily life, language, ways of thinking. It was part of the culture.
Working at Chavez HS, with Hispanic and Black bosses, surrounded by Hispanic and Black students I had plenty of hard lessons about how universal ideas about values aren't necessarily universal and how you approach them isn't necessarily universal. I still have trouble with reconciling how white people are somehow uniquely racist. I just don't see it. Some of the most racist stuff I've witnessed, experienced, etc, have had zero white people around. (It should be mentioned that white flight and Houston zoning laws created and exacerbated the minority heavy communities I lived in. But that doesn't indicate personal beliefs /behaviors.)
I spent long enough in Pasadena that, I still feel more at home there than my new very diverse Suburb after 2 and a half years. There was something okay in learning that my whiteness was real and a thing and I need to be consciously aware that my perspective is not something objective. I feel it keeps me in check. I am generally ashamed of how little anti- racist I am I don't do much. Vote, give to causes that will promote progressive causes, uplift underrepresented populations.
This leads to a strange dynamic in my classrooms. We currently have a community where it's very likely that when a black student is in my class, they are the only one. It exposes the rawness of even addressing the issue of race and bias in a classroom, and the potential victimization of Black students while trying to create a space for them to not be uncomfortable.
When I first came to this new school there was a sign in the classroom that read Techie Lives Matter. The eternal war between theatre technicians and Actors wrapped up in a "cute slogan". I had pretty much one black student in each class and none of them would have said anything publicly. I quietly took it down the first time. A new one replaced it and I addressed the class that did it. The young black student in the class the second I mentioned the post tensed up and likely felt like the absolute center of attention. I hadn't even said the phrase looked at her or mentioned race. I referred to the poster, the fact that it was attached to an organization that promotes justice and protests (something something vulnerable populations. Sorry it was three years ago). I asked them why it was an inappropriate sign in a public school and safe space (theatre rooms have been " safespaces" for decades). The diverse class didn't speak up. The one young woman did, and beautifully articulated the disrespect and discomfort that might be felt by someone who believed in the things Black Lives matters stands for. She didn't mention race or racism either if I recall correctly. The idea that this young woman, felt she needed to tiptoe around a blatantly casual racist sign, felt she needed to step up and tell the class, was put in that position because it was both unfair of me to ask her to do it, and to not address it, still stings me. As it should. It would be easy to be proud and point at it. "Look I gave her a voice, and did my best." Really it just makes me feel inadequate and gross.
This year I have a class with a young man who is not the only Black student but that's a different story. I teach language, how to use it interpret it perform with it. I try to teach a variety of cultures and cultural empathy. I enjoy a variety of hip-hop casually, as much as most teens from the 90's. I have since before I was a teacher connected hip-hop to Shakespeare. There's a fantastic video on you tube of the British rapper, Akala, doing a TED talk about Shakespeare and hip-hop. He talks about Shakespearean rhythms class comparisons and the custodians of knowledge problem. He's a mediocre rapper, but an excellent presenter. I've shown it every year almost since I've started teaching. It's not a gimmick, or a point or anything. It's a beautiful summation of the working class feeling that Shakespeare would have and ties that idea to modern communities and cultures that put lyricism and a culture of knowledge into poetry. African Griots and Wu-tang and such. Every time I use a even passingly black pop culture reference I feel like I'm singling this student out. He even mentioned one day "why'd you look at me?" ( because you're in my class and it's just as awkward if I specifically avoid looking at the one black kid in class) The same lessons I've used with thousands of black and Hispanic student. Because of my own whiteness and the whiteness of the culture that he is alone in, it is palpable when even things unappropriated feel appropriated.

Anyway, I have to get back to work. that's my two cents on what it means to be aware of whiteness and white culture. :oops:
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Re: White people are White

Post by YellowKing »

Archinerd wrote:My classmates and I sat back down.
:D :D :D

I have a couple of other quick ones:

1. We were talking basketball one day and I mentioned a certain team, and my black co-worker says, "Is that the one with all the 'brothers' on it?" I kind of hesitated to respond. He repeats, "That team you were talking about has a bunch of brothers on it, right?" I finally say, "Uhh..actually I think it's mostly white guys...?" :oops: He looks at me confused and says, "I meant actual brothers. LIke they're related." Then I remembered there were indeed two brothers playing for the team. I felt sooooo bad and apologized profusely, but he thought it was absolutely hysterical.

2. The other one was we were in a meeting with an Irish vendor who had a really strong accent. Somehow we started discussing video games. The vendor says, "I wish I could play games where you shoot Mexicans."

We all look at each other in stunned silence.

Finally one guy speaks up, "Did you just say you wish you could play games where you shoot Mexicans?" The vendor looks completely flustered and says, "Oh God no! I said shoot MECHS again. They haven't made a good Mech battle game in ages." :lol: That became another running joke. "Sorry can't make it I have a vendor call." "Ok, just make sure he doesn't shoot Mexicans."
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Re: White people are White

Post by Jaymann »

I grew up in the deep South, but in the suburbs. Never saw a black kid in my school in 7th through 11th grade. Somewhere along the line "desegregation" hit, the form it took was they told us we could go to any school we wanted. Naturally, it was like: uh, I'm good, thanks. Unsurprisingly, no black kids were interested in coming out to the suburbs either.

Then when I moved to San Diego, we could only afford to rent in the poor part of town, where we were the only white faces in a 10 block radius. It was not scary at all, and I even walked home carrying a paper bag full of money each night (do not try this at home). I definitely do not think that white privilege of fearlessness would translate in the other direction.
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Little Raven
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Re: White people are White

Post by Little Raven »

Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:46 pmI still have trouble with reconciling how white people are somehow uniquely racist.
You have trouble with it because it's patent nonsense. White people are just people - they are no more or less virtuous than any other group of people.

Most of what we've been discussing in this thread is not really white culture...which isn't really a thing anyway, but rather social power structures. Humans are addicted to these things...something deep in our monkey brains responds to them at a very base level. They exist in every society I've ever heard of, and as societies grow larger and more complex, the power hierarchies evolve in kind. Race is a fantastic signaler when it comes to these sorts of structures because it's very difficult for people to hide, but it isn't really a driver of them - even in racially homogenous societies, power dynamics are as pronounced as ever. Pretty much everyone in 17th Century England was white, but it was a still a highly stratified society...it's just that your place on the hierarchy was signaled by things like your accent instead of your eye color.

In the United States, the dominant power structure is "white," although as many people have pointed out in this thread, that's not actually as simple as skin color. Color is part of it, sure, but only a part. (A brown-skinned Princeton graduate from LA with a last name like 'Martinez' is infinitely more "white" than Lynndie England (or 99.9% of people from Appalachia) will ever be.) This means that in the US and Canada, "white" racism is far and away the most damaging to the largest number of people, mostly because racism from other ethnic groups is far less likely to be backed up by the larger social power structures. We accordingly give it the most attention.

But that isn't the case everywhere in the world. There are lots of places where "white" isn't the default, but you'll find that the social power structures we associate with "whiteness" in the US are still very much in play. If you live in Japan but aren't ethnically Japanese, well, you're going to find your place on the social hierarchy is capped. (exactly where you're capped will depends on other factors - are you American or Korean? Are you rich or poor? Where did you go to school? - but you will run into a cap eventually) This dynamic exists around the globe, and it can get much, MUCH worse than what we are currently experiencing here in the US. Being black in this country is harder than it should be a lot of the time, but even Mississippi will usually prosecute people who burn black churches. If you're a Copt in Egypt, there's a decent chance that the cops were the ones that set the fire. And while living in China comes with sacrifices for anyone who isn't a Han, god help you if you're a Uyghur. Even Africans aren't immune to this sort of thing - I very much doubt that most Americans could tell Hutus and Tutsis apart if you stood them side by side, but people in Rwanda have no trouble recognizing the difference, with occasionally lethal consequences.

In many ways, life would be a lot easier if race essentialism was actually a thing, but I haven't seen any compelling evidence for it.
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Re: White people are White

Post by raydude »

I believe the intent of Lorini's original post is to highlight the circumstances in the US. Yes, she did mention other countries, but only in passing, and only in the sense that she was not familiar with other countries. Yes, it would be nice if we could make the whole world sing kumbaya, but let's focus on the US for a bit, perhaps?

Michelle Singletary of the Washington Post wrote a great article recently on racial microagressions that I think might help to frame the question "what is this white culture" and more importantly, what can we do about it in our day to day lives? Because I think at the end of the day, unless you're a policy maker in government or at a big institution, your contribution to the issue is going to be on a more personal "see something, say something" level.

Her article mentions situations where the microagressor assumed she or her family were "not normal". First case, an older white man approaching her black husband playing with his kids in the pool and complimenting him on playing with his kids. At first glance this may not seem out of the ordinary. Until I mention that she states other people were playing with their kids in the pool as well. Only he was the only black father and the white older gentleman made a beeline for him. Another case, her family goes in the Precheck line at the airport. A white man singles them out and asks if they are in the right line.

These are situations where "white=normal" and "black=not normal" therefore someone felt the need to point it out. Whether it was well-intentioned, like the compliment in the pool, or not, like the "are you sure you're in the right line?" remark. That someone was white. I hope I don't have to point out that if the situation were reversed there would be no reverse scenario. A black person wouldn't go to a white dad and say "how nice that you're playing with your kids." and not say that to the other black parents. Nor would a black person say "are you in the right line?" if a white person queues up at a mostly black Precheck.

It's these situations I feel where if you see something you should say something. Maybe in a nice way "hey grandpa, let's go compliment the other parents too". Or maybe something more snarky, "Dude, are YOU in the right line? I mean, just look at you."

Just more food for thought.
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Re: White people are White

Post by Little Raven »

raydude wrote: ↑Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:26 am I believe the intent of Lorini's original post is to highlight the circumstances in the US. Yes, she did mention other countries, but only in passing, and only in the sense that she was not familiar with other countries. Yes, it would be nice if we could make the whole world sing kumbaya, but let's focus on the US for a bit, perhaps?
With respect, ray, my post WAS about America. I'm not quite sure how you managed to read otherwise.

In particular, it was about why we rightfully focus on white racism in America, even though whites hardly have a monopoly on that particular sin, even in this country. The black community in the US, for instance....has issues with antisemitism. CL has related his stories of racism in the Hispanic community a couple of times, and the most blatantly racist rant I've ever personally been exposed to came from a Korean woman, of all things....but we don't really spend a lot of time worrying about these attitudes, nor should we. Because while these prejudices may be very real, they rarely result in significant harm, mostly because the people that hold these beliefs are rarely in a position to leverage the local power structure to enforce their worldview. (though I suppose you can make an argument that Asians have joined the "white" club in at least some locations) By contrast, we've all seen how a white "Karen" can bring the full weight of society down on some unfortunate's head, and maybe even more frightening....how quick some people are to leverage that ability.

The idea that whites are uniquely racist has no scientific basis that I'm aware of, but there's a very good reason that we focus on white racism so completely in this country - that's the form that causes the overwhelming amount of harm.
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Re: White people are White

Post by Holman »

Whites are not uniquely racist, but the white privilege and racism baked into American institutions and economics are uniquely consequential.
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Re: White people are White

Post by Lorini »

Holman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:51 am Whites are not uniquely racist, but the white privilege and racism baked into American institutions and economics are uniquely consequential.
It's irrelevant in my opinion as a Black woman 'if other people do it'. I don't give a damn about that. I have a son who is at elevated risk because he's Black. That's relevant and that's what I care about.
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Re: White people are White

Post by Isgrimnur »

It's not about prejudice being that common, it's about power to do something with it.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: White people are White

Post by Kurth »

Little Raven wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:15 am The idea that whites are uniquely racist has no scientific basis that I'm aware of, but there's a very good reason that we focus on white racism so completely in this country - that's the form that causes the overwhelming amount of harm.
Of course not whites aren't uniquely predisposed to racism. Did someone suggest otherwise? Setting aside the thread title, I thought the whole focus these days was on "systemic racism," which is appropriate because - as the name suggests - it emphasizes the racial inequalities baked into the system.
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Re: White people are White

Post by Little Raven »

Kurth wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:04 pmOf course not whites aren't uniquely predisposed to racism. Did someone suggest otherwise?
Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:46 pmI still have trouble with reconciling how white people are somehow uniquely racist.
Like, I literally quoted this at the top of my first post! :D
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Re: White people are White

Post by Kurth »

Little Raven wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:25 pm
Kurth wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:04 pmOf course not whites aren't uniquely predisposed to racism. Did someone suggest otherwise?
Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:46 pmI still have trouble with reconciling how white people are somehow uniquely racist.
Like, I literally quoted this at the top of my first post! :D
I did see that, but I didn't think CL was making that assertion himself but rather questioning it. Whoever said white people are somehow uniquely racist? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone on OO say that. Seems like a strawman.
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Re: White people are White

Post by Little Raven »

Kurth wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:04 pmI did see that, but I didn't think CL was making that assertion himself but rather questioning it.
He was clearly questioning it. I was answering the question.

I don't think I've actually been disagreeing with anyone in this thread.
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Re: White people are White

Post by Blackhawk »

FWIW, I had to read your post several times to figure out which viewpoint you were espousing.
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Re: White people are White

Post by Combustible Lemur »


Kurth wrote:
Little Raven wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:25 pm
Kurth wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:04 pmOf course not whites aren't uniquely predisposed to racism. Did someone suggest otherwise?
Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:46 pmI still have trouble with reconciling how white people are somehow uniquely racist.
Like, I literally quoted this at the top of my first post! :D
I did see that, but I didn't think CL was making that assertion himself but rather questioning it. Whoever said white people are somehow uniquely racist? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone on OO say that. Seems like a strawman.
Heh, read more huffington post.

I don't really question it. Living in texas, which i think is why ND and Little Raven tend to stake out their position the way they do on topics like this, American racism is perpertuated much more widely that White America. I've never lived in an all white area in the houston metroplex. Yes white exacerbated racism and the legacy of southern white supremacy has driven much of the economic and social disparity here as everywhere. But while aguably western european culture driven, there are too many other cultures here to not be concerned with social bootstrap conservatism and capitalism as a continued aspect of social i equality.
Again i don't know the statistical facts but but i see the kids and attitude of many parents. And even as white people are increasingly a minority at least the suburbs has a strong lack of empathy for lack of equity. Including in policing and discipline.


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Re: White people are White

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I’m not sure why you feel the need to bring up your SM-N975U.

Completely destroys the effect of the rest of your message. IMO
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Re: White people are White

Post by Grifman »

Little Raven wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:35 pm
Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:46 pmI still have trouble with reconciling how white people are somehow uniquely racist.
You have trouble with it because it's patent nonsense. White people are just people - they are no more or less virtuous than any other group of people.

Most of what we've been discussing in this thread is not really white culture...which isn't really a thing anyway, but rather social power structures. Humans are addicted to these things...something deep in our monkey brains responds to them at a very base level. They exist in every society I've ever heard of, and as societies grow larger and more complex, the power hierarchies evolve in kind. Race is a fantastic signaler when it comes to these sorts of structures because it's very difficult for people to hide, but it isn't really a driver of them - even in racially homogenous societies, power dynamics are as pronounced as ever. Pretty much everyone in 17th Century England was white, but it was a still a highly stratified society...it's just that your place on the hierarchy was signaled by things like your accent instead of your eye color.

In the United States, the dominant power structure is "white," although as many people have pointed out in this thread, that's not actually as simple as skin color. Color is part of it, sure, but only a part. (A brown-skinned Princeton graduate from LA with a last name like 'Martinez' is infinitely more "white" than Lynndie England (or 99.9% of people from Appalachia) will ever be.) This means that in the US and Canada, "white" racism is far and away the most damaging to the largest number of people, mostly because racism from other ethnic groups is far less likely to be backed up by the larger social power structures. We accordingly give it the most attention.

But that isn't the case everywhere in the world. There are lots of places where "white" isn't the default, but you'll find that the social power structures we associate with "whiteness" in the US are still very much in play. If you live in Japan but aren't ethnically Japanese, well, you're going to find your place on the social hierarchy is capped. (exactly where you're capped will depends on other factors - are you American or Korean? Are you rich or poor? Where did you go to school? - but you will run into a cap eventually) This dynamic exists around the globe, and it can get much, MUCH worse than what we are currently experiencing here in the US. Being black in this country is harder than it should be a lot of the time, but even Mississippi will usually prosecute people who burn black churches. If you're a Copt in Egypt, there's a decent chance that the cops were the ones that set the fire. And while living in China comes with sacrifices for anyone who isn't a Han, god help you if you're a Uyghur. Even Africans aren't immune to this sort of thing - I very much doubt that most Americans could tell Hutus and Tutsis apart if you stood them side by side, but people in Rwanda have no trouble recognizing the difference, with occasionally lethal consequences.

In many ways, life would be a lot easier if race essentialism was actually a thing, but I haven't seen any compelling evidence for it.
Thanks you for bring some balance here. Racism/ethnocentrism exists everywhere as you point out, and it isn't even race based in many cases (as you point out in your mention of Tutsis/Hutus). White racism is no more unique than it is anywhere else. It's a human fault or failing - we focus on differences far too often, rather than focus on commonalities, because it allows one group to assert power over another by nature of those differences.

And you're right, it's really about power structures, however they end up being defined. For example from what I've read, "race" wasn't all that big a deal in the Greco-Roman world - the differences there were between citizen/barbarian, Jew/Gentile, slave/free, even man/woman, as there were strong differential power structures in play there (which is interesting because St. Paul directly addresses those structures several times in the NT, stating that Christianity supersedes those those differences, but that is neither here nor there, but interesting none the less). People use differences as power levers - it's always been that way, it's just expressed differently in different societies.

The other thing I think people miss is the progress that we HAVE made. Things are not as good as they should be - and frankly, they NEVER are, we can always do better. But slavery is gone after a terrible war, African-Americans have civil rights (though far later than they should have gotten them), lynchings are a thing of the past (about 3,500 African-Americans were lynched from 1882-1968), the KKK is largely a powerless joke (they widely held political positions through the US in the 1920's), people do get upset when they see young unarmed black men being shot for little apparent reason, and so on.

What inspires me is that despite this, African-Americans (and Native Americans who were also treated horribly by our country) rallied and fought for this country, and indeed have fought to fight, in war after war. They would have had every reason to say, nope, gonna sit this one out. Yet even when faced with discrimination, they fought the system to be able to fight for this country (Tuskegee Airmen for example) . I can only assume that it was because despite American's flaws, they believed in what it stood for, even if those ideals were imperfectly implemented. That should inspire all of us to fight and make sure our country lives up to those ideals, and more perfectly implement them every single day. The fight to make a "more perfect union" is never done. America will always be a work in progress.
Last edited by Grifman on Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: White people are White

Post by noxiousdog »

The other thing I think people miss is the progress that we HAVE made. Things are not as good as they should be - and frankly, they NEVER are, we can always do better. But slavery is gone after a terrible war, African-Americans have civil rights (though far later than they should have gotten them), lynchings are a thing of the past (about 3,500 African-Americans were lynched from 1882-1968), the KKK is largely a powerless joke (they widely held political positions through the US in the 1920's), people do get upset when they see young unarmed black men being shot for little apparent reason, and so on.
While I agree with your post, and there's a cliche about forests and trees, I think the trees are important here. There still is a ton of whitewashed (no pun intended) and overlooked history. It's also upsetting to find out how recently the lunch counter sit-ins were. I know it's just a sci-fi show on netflix, but Umbrella Academy did a very emotional representation of this era, and it made me contemplate that my parents' generation were raised with separate but equal as the norm.

While I don't really care for the broad brushed conclusion that raydude made above (I don't feel isolated incidents made by a fraction of the participants constitute a racial culture), whites as a whole have not acknowledged the anger nor asked for forgiveness for their specific treatments of minorities. I should never hear (from non-crazy people) that the civil war was about state's rights, that slaves have been common throughout human history, or that Native Americans were the bad guys in the 1800's.
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Re: White people are White

Post by LordMortis »

The other thing I think people miss is the progress that we HAVE made. Things are not as good as they should be - and frankly, they NEVER are, we can always do better. But slavery is gone after a terrible war, African-Americans have civil rights (though far later than they should have gotten them), lynchings are a thing of the past (about 3,500 African-Americans were lynched from 1882-1968), the KKK is largely a powerless joke (they widely held political positions through the US in the 1920's), people do get upset when they see young unarmed black men being shot for little apparent reason, and so on.
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Re: White people are White

Post by Holman »

Grifman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:12 pm What inspires me is that despite this, African-Americans (and Native Americans who were also treated horribly by our country) rallied and fought for this country, and indeed have fought to fight, in war after war. They would have had every reason to say, nope, gonna sit this one out. Yet even when faced with discrimination, they fought the system to be able to fight for this country (Tuskegee Airmen for example) . I can only assume that it was because despite American's flaws, they believed in what it stood for, even if those ideals were imperfectly implemented. That should inspire all of us to fight and make sure our country lives up to those ideals, and more perfectly implement them every single day. The fight to make a "more perfect union" is never done. America will always be a work in progress.
This is the theme of the 1619 Project, which (despite all the right-wing agitprop thrown against it) is actually a hopeful re-imagination of the American narrative.
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Re: White people are White

Post by Isgrimnur »

Malcolm X wrote:If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out that's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made
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Re: White people are White

Post by Grifman »

Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:13 pm
Western european colonial expanssion is a relatively unique form of culture that is distinct from others.
I would strongly disagree with that as history shows us otherwise. There are multiple examples throughout history. For one, just look at the Arab/Muslim expansion after 630 AD. Arabs never existed in North Africa prior to this time, yet they are there today. Why? Because they conquered North Africa and planted military colonies to control the local population. The same everywhere else they went - Arabs isolated themselves into military colonies planted to control the local populations - North Africa, Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, south western Iran, the Caucasus, Spain, etc. Eventually, those conquered populations largely assimilated into Islam and the Arab conquerors were largely assimilated into those larger populations but it was conquest and colonization nevertheless, on a scale the world had not seen since the Roman Empire.

China is another example. In classical and medieval times they conquered Korea, sought to expand into SE Asia (Vietnam), and moved into Central Asia, planting military colonies, and even today, they are oppressing the Uighurs and Tibetans and are rapidly colonizing (there's no other word for it) those territories by moving in Han Chinese. I think the Tibetans and Uighurs are almost minorities in their own lands by now.

Then you have the Mongol's who probably controlled the world's largest land empire ever. By the end of their conquests, you had Mongol kingdoms/empires controlling Iran and much of the Middle East (IIkhanids), the Moguls in India, the Golden Horde in Russia and western Central Asia, and the Yuan Dynasty (Kublai Khan) in Eastern Central Asia and China, most areas the Mongols had never inhabited before.

Look at the Zulus rise under Shaka Zulu. They launched a campaign of conquest across southern Africa, assimilating some tribes in some cases, in other cases causing a disastrous wave of forced migrations as one group of people collided with another as they all fled and tried to get out of the way of the Zulu war machine.

The West was the most recent, and perhaps the most successful, in a long line of imperial expansions, which I would largely chalk up to several factors - imperial competition with one another, geographical advantages (pretty hard for the Ottoman Empire to colonize the Americas), new technologies such as navigation/sea travel, and military advantage over other possible Old World rivals, and ineffective resistance in the New World, due to disease and technology. But it was hardly "unique".
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Re: White people are White

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Holman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:58 pm
Grifman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:12 pm What inspires me is that despite this, African-Americans (and Native Americans who were also treated horribly by our country) rallied and fought for this country, and indeed have fought to fight, in war after war. They would have had every reason to say, nope, gonna sit this one out. Yet even when faced with discrimination, they fought the system to be able to fight for this country (Tuskegee Airmen for example) . I can only assume that it was because despite American's flaws, they believed in what it stood for, even if those ideals were imperfectly implemented. That should inspire all of us to fight and make sure our country lives up to those ideals, and more perfectly implement them every single day. The fight to make a "more perfect union" is never done. America will always be a work in progress.
This is the theme of the 1619 Project, which (despite all the right-wing agitprop thrown against it) is actually a hopeful re-imagination of the American narrative.
That's not the take I get from reading this article (and others), which is not right wing agitprop:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ct/604093/
The clash between the Times authors and their historian critics represents a fundamental disagreement over the trajectory of American society. Was America founded as a slavocracy, and are current racial inequities the natural outgrowth of that? Or was America conceived in liberty, a nation haltingly redeeming itself through its founding principles? These are not simple questions to answer, because the nation’s pro-slavery and anti-slavery tendencies are so closely intertwined.

The letter is rooted in a vision of American history as a slow, uncertain march toward a more perfect union. The 1619 Project, and Hannah-Jones’s introductory essay in particular, offer a darker vision of the nation, in which Americans have made less progress than they think, and in which black people continue to struggle indefinitely for rights they may never fully realize. Inherent in that vision is a kind of pessimism, not about black struggle but about the sincerity and viability of white anti-racism. It is a harsh verdict, and one of the reasons the 1619 Project has provoked pointed criticism alongside praise.
The most radical thread in the 1619 Project is not its contention that slavery’s legacy continues to shape American institutions; it’s the authors’ pessimism that a majority of white people will abandon racism and work with black Americans toward a more perfect union. Every essay tracing racial injustice from slavery to the present day speaks to the endurance of racial caste. And it is this profound pessimism about white America that many of the 1619 Project’s critics find most galling.
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Re: White people are White

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Have you read the whole 1619 Project?

Of course there's pessimism. But there's a whole lot about the American experiment in liberty carried forward by those least given easy entitlement to it.
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Re: White people are White

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Holman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:56 pm Have you read the whole 1619 Project?

Of course there's pessimism. But there's a whole lot about the American experiment in liberty carried forward by those least given easy entitlement to it.
I have read certain parts and excerpts. This article seems to be the closest to what you describe above:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... cracy.html

But that's just one article, and it's optimism and hope, such that it is, is buried under a lot of other stuff.
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Re: White people are White

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noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:27 pmI should never hear (from non-crazy people) that the civil war was about state's rights, that slaves have been common throughout human history, or that Native Americans were the bad guys in the 1800's.
:shock: :shock: :shock:

Uh, hi! I'm Raven, and I guess I'm crazy, because I'm going to tell you that slavery is not only common throughout human history.....it never really stopped being common, at least in certain industries.

Evidence of slavery goes back as far as we have evidence of any civilization at all. We know it existed in Sumer, way back in 2100 BC, because they documented the practice. Hammurabi wrote laws about it. Hittite texts from Anatolia mention rewards for capturing escaped slaves. We don't know a ton about the details of how slavery operated in those societies, but we know you could be born into slavery and that they were frequently used for hard labor. Slavery existed in Egypt too, although that particular brand of slavery seems to have been somewhat less severe than what we often associate with the practice.

But once we get to Ancient Greece and Rome - hoo boy, the documented evidence of large scale, chattel slavery is overwhelming. Hell, even Aristotle declared that all non-Greeks were slaves by birth, fit for nothing but obedience. And this wasn't your Egyptian skilled-labor kinda-indentured servitude slavery, either. (although that type existed as well) Athens was literally built with wealth from silver mines dug by men in chains. At one point, 20,000 Athenian slaves escaped to a Spartan camp when their army camped at Decelea - and given how the Spartans treated slaves, they must have been pretty desperate. Rome also practiced slavery on a wide scale, largely the nasty kind. Slaves were property, not people, and were subject to any and all whims of their masters, including torture, sexual exploitation, even summary execution. You did NOT want to be a slave in Rome, but a whole lot of people were.

But surely that was just the the West? Sadly, no. The Chinese are great chroniclers, and one of the things they chronicle is the use of slavery. We know that the Shang dynasty (~1600 BC - ~1000 BC) frequently raided surrounding states in order to obtain slaves - we're not quite sure if they used them for labor or simply for ritual sacrifice. By ~450 BC, there were large numbers of laboring slaves, although that slowly waved over the next few centuries due to changes to the economic structure. That is until the Qin dynasty figured out that enslaving your political enemies (and their families, of course) was a great way to kill two birds with one stone. By 215 BC, massive numbers of slaves were once again building infrastructure across the nation. Slavery would wax and wane in China over the centuries, but it would never go away - the Chinese poet Yuan Chen wrote appreciatively of "slave girls of Viet, sleek, of buttery flesh" in the Tang Dynasty. Heck, when Hong Xiuquan managed to kick the Qing dynasty out of some territory around the time of our Civil War, one of his most notable actions was to abolish slavery - which was still widespread across the Chinese countryside.

Slavery has existed in the Middle East since...well, since the Middle East because a thing, but things really got rocking in the 7th Century, when the Berbers figured out how to make slavery pay. (Ironically, the reason slavery got so profitable was that Islam forbid enslaving fellow Muslims, so once the Islamic empire was unified, you had to start bringing in outside supply, which made the merchants VERY rich) For the next thousand years, the numbers of slaves steadily grew, until by the 1600s its estimated that something like a million slaves existed across Africa. (remember, this was when the African population was just 55 million) And as the Muslims moved into India, slavery moved with then. Muhammad bin Qasim is documented as having enslaved tens of thousands of civilians and soldiers alike as he carved out his empire. After Mahmud of Ghazna returned from India in 1019, he brought so many slaves (even more than the 100,000 he captured in 1001) with him that he crashed the market, and slavers from around the medieval world came to reap his bounty. And of course, slavery remained a vital part of the Ottoman Empire until just before it's eventual dissolution at the end of the 19th century. (slavery, that is...the Ottoman Empire creaked on for a few more decades)

We don't know a lot about the Americas before the Europeans arrived, but what we do know doesn't give huge reason for optimism. The details of slavery in the Aztec world are hazy, but we know there were a lot of them, and that they were often sacrificed in appalling numbers. (The Inca didn't have slavery as we currently understand it, but exactly how a worker was treated probably had a lot to do with which local lord you were under.) Many of the various indigenous peoples of North America also kept slaves, indeed, many tribes were renowned for being fierce warriors and slavers. Slavery was a hereditary condition among many tribes, and slaves were actively traded alongside other goods.

Sadly, while slavery is currently illegal everywhere, the practice continues in many parts of the world. Chattel slavery remains rampant in in Libya, Mauritania, and in parts of the Ivory Coast. Government-forced labor, which is often all but indistinguishable from slavery, is currently practiced on industrial scales in North Korea, Zimbabwe, and Eritrea. And of course, sex slavery is multi-billion dollar global industry that targets millions of people a year, most of them children. Experts estimate that 22 to 46 million people are slaves RIGHT NOW. :(

Now, it's possible that what you meant to say is "Industrial scale chattel slavery as practiced in the United States between 1776 and 1865 was historically uncommon," and I would agree with that statement, mostly because that particular form of slavery requires a fairly narrow set of economic circumstances to be profitable, and those circumstances tend to be fleeting. But it was not unique - similar plantation-style chattel slavery was practiced by the Spartans in 600 BC, again in the 7th century by the newly arising Islamic civilizations in Africa, and it has popped up in Asia from time to time over the centuries. (probably whenever economic conditions made it worthwhile) At any rate, the idea that only a crazy person would believe that slavery has been a common feature throughout human history seems to fly in the face of literally everything we know. It's been so common throughout history that whenever a civilization does not practice it, contemporary historians usually make lots of notes about how unusual that civilization is.

Anyway, back to the nuthouse with me. :wink:
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Re: White people are White

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People keep making this same mistake - the West were the worst or most unique "imperialists" or "slavers" or whatever other civilization level sins you can gin up, in world history, when instead, in a number of ways they just did what societies have always done when they had power - abuse it to their benefit. Imperialism and slavery have been constants throughout history, and are nothing unique to the West. What critics in fact ignore, is that that while the West, like a lot of other civilizations is capable of evil, it has also been capable of great reformation and change. It may have been erratic, it may have been halting but the West has reformed itself for the better over time.
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Re: White people are White

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The next mistake is to try to explain or justify slavery because other people did it and are still doing it. Not relevant to the current situation with Black people in America. In the context of Black Lives Matter, it doesn't matter that slavery is somehow built into the human psyche. We can and have rose above the more baser forms of humanity.
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Re: White people are White

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Lorini wrote:The next mistake is to try to explain or justify slavery because other people did it and are still doing it. Not relevant to the current situation with Black people in America. In the context of Black Lives Matter, it doesn't matter that slavery is somehow built into the human psyche. We can and have rose above the more baser forms of humanity.
Yeah, from a intellectual standpoint the "history of slavery in global society" might be interesting but in terms of race relations...nah.

Some talking shill on OAN was talking about how John Smith was captured and was a slave so people shouldn't keep taking about just black slavery because hey, whites were enslaved too and then it went to why Thanksgiving should be about how all races can coexist vs the fact that the Native Americans were going to get a raw deal.

And John Smith did okay for himself and as far as I know he was allowed to participate in society, own land and I don't think his descendents were lynched, disenfranchised, denied a mortgage or had a cop sit on their neck for 8 minutes.
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Re: White people are White

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Grifman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:33 pmWhat critics in fact ignore, is that that while the West, like a lot of other civilizations is capable of evil, it has also been capable of great reformation and change. It may have been erratic, it may have been halting but the West has reformed itself for the better over time.
To be fair, the West isn't unique in that regard either. The Islamic world has seen several attempts (with varying amounts of success) to reform slavery within its borders over the centuries, and the Chinese approach to slavery has varied wildly over the 3 thousand years of recorded history that we have from them.

If I were to take any lesson from world history, it's that humans are humans no matter when and where they live, and that because of that fact we must never grow complacent. The West is doing pretty well right now (by historical standards) but many societies have achieved periods of relative social harmony, only to have massively oppressive social and economic structures come roaring back to life. The struggle for a better world never stops.
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Re: White people are White

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Little Raven wrote:
Grifman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:33 pmWhat critics in fact ignore, is that that while the West, like a lot of other civilizations is capable of evil, it has also been capable of great reformation and change. It may have been erratic, it may have been halting but the West has reformed itself for the better over time.
To be fair, the West isn't unique in that regard either. The Islamic world has seen several attempts (with varying amounts of success) to reform slavery within its borders over the centuries, and the Chinese approach to slavery has varied wildly over the 3 thousand years of recorded history that we have from them.

If I were to take any lesson from world history, it's that humans are humans no matter when and where they live, and that because of that fact we must never grow complacent. The West is doing pretty well right now (by historical standards) but many societies have achieved periods of relative social harmony, only to have massively oppressive social and economic structures come roaring back to life. The struggle for a better world never stops.
A somewhat different topic but the status of foreign workers and they abuses they endure in rich Middle Eastern countries is an ongoing struggle.
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Re: White people are White

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Lorini wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:55 pm The next mistake is to try to explain or justify slavery because other people did it and are still doing it. Not relevant to the current situation with Black people in America. In the context of Black Lives Matter, it doesn't matter that slavery is somehow built into the human psyche. We can and have rose above the more baser forms of humanity.
Of course, and I don't see anyone here doing that. Defending an action because others did it is what children do - I did it as a kid :) But when people make broad overstatements about slavery or any other thing, it doesn't help either. What I do see is people using slavery as a club to bludgeon the US or the West, while refusing to use that same club on other civilizations, as if the US/West were uniquely evil. Sometimes I think they use it for pure ideological reasons, rather than actually caring about slavery and the people who suffered under it.
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Re: White people are White

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Now, it's possible that what you meant to say is "Industrial scale chattel slavery as practiced in the United States between 1776 and 1865 was historically uncommon,"
See? That wasn't hard. Your diatribe, however, is what I don't like hearing any more. If one can't differentiate between the two, then the sentiment is worthless.

.
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Re: White people are White

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noxiousdog wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:45 pmSee? That wasn't hard. Your diatribe, however, is what I don't like hearing any more.
Assuming people will know that what you say isn't what you mean is what sunk the "Defund the Police" slogan. It's a bad habit to develop.

edit - Sorry, not meaning to be harsh here. Of course I can differentiate between the two. I know that you can as well - which is why I was surprised to see you say something that is blatantly false. A simple "American" before slavery would have made your meaning clear.
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Re: White people are White

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Little Raven wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:46 pm
noxiousdog wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:45 pmSee? That wasn't hard. Your diatribe, however, is what I don't like hearing any more.
Assuming people will know that what you say isn't what you mean is what sunk the "Defund the Police" slogan. It's a bad habit to develop.
I have faith in you.
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Re: White people are White

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Grifman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:56 pm
Lorini wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:55 pm The next mistake is to try to explain or justify slavery because other people did it and are still doing it. Not relevant to the current situation with Black people in America. In the context of Black Lives Matter, it doesn't matter that slavery is somehow built into the human psyche. We can and have rose above the more baser forms of humanity.
Of course, and I don't see anyone here doing that. Defending an action because others did it is what children do - I did it as a kid :) But when people make broad overstatements about slavery or any other thing, it doesn't help either. What I do see is people using slavery as a club to bludgeon the US or the West, while refusing to use that same club on other civilizations, as if the US/West were uniquely evil. Sometimes I think they use it for pure ideological reasons, rather than actually caring about slavery and the people who suffered under it.
Since I'm the OP of the thread, I'd really love it (but can't control it, I know that) that the focus stay on the OP instead of moving the goalposts.
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Re: White people are White

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Anything I say is going to be inadequate, but it is a struggle to fight your brainwashing as a white person. I remember hearing the "hunting in a baited field" joke when I was 5 or 6. I didn't understand it til later, but you knew that shooting people was wrong.I didn't understand the watermelon reference til later.
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Re: White people are White

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The watermelon reference was stupid because it pretends that only Black people eat watermelon and somehow that's wrong and they are barbaric for eating it.
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Re: White people are White

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Lorini wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:18 pm Since I'm the OP of the thread, I'd really love it (but can't control it, I know that) that the focus stay on the OP instead of moving the goalposts.
You know them White people....they just have to appropriate everything.....
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Re: White people are White

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Lorini wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:57 pm The watermelon reference was stupid because it pretends that only Black people eat watermelon and somehow that's wrong and they are barbaric for eating it.
Mark me a barbarian then.
I have always loved fried chicken and watermelon and it was my favorite meal as a kid. I knew that it was being used in a derogatory way, but I always thought that was stupid. It's like looking down on people for liking the color blue.
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