Like I said before - you exploit the hell out of the flaws in the system to fix it, and when you're done, you remove those flaws. You close the loopholes after you're done with them to make sure neither side can use them again.Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:53 pm And even if they do take off the gloves to seize the upper hand, that leaves us with two competing extremist parties. I suppose that's better than meekly yielding to the fascists -- I can get behind extremism in the cause of saving democracy -- but it's not exactly an ideal outcome.
What is to be done?
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- Blackhawk
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Re: What is to be done?
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Re: What is to be done?
There would be no Martin without Malcom.hepcat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:54 pmMartin Luther King Jr. would like you to read a history book at some point.Drazzil wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:08 pmViolence got us weekends, labor laws, and just about every civil right you can name It was either violence or the threat of it.
What'd voting get anyone? Biden, global warming, shredded social safety nets and the fucking neoliberal order. Wake up man.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
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Re: What is to be done?
Its not about angry people burning down their own neighborhoods. That never really works. This is about making the system grind to a halt to where people cant make money. Blockade ports, clog freeways, make the cops peacefully arrrest you, or if they come with force, meet it with the same force. Most cops are cowards who love to beat and shoot peaceful protestors and unarmed POC's. When cops meet resistance, they melt and police stations burn and politicians take notice. They start to get nervous and start to wander towards changing things. Peaceful gets beaten, broken or co opted.Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:53 pm As for "what's to be done"...the steps aren't a mystery. End or modify the filibuster, pass the two voting rights bills, and expand the SCOTUS. Make DC a state. Democrats have to play the same game that the Republicans are playing (and winning). Unfortunately, they won't or can't and the clock is running out. And even if they do take off the gloves to seize the upper hand, that leaves us with two competing extremist parties. I suppose that's better than meekly yielding to the fascists -- I can get behind extremism in the cause of saving democracy -- but it's not exactly an ideal outcome.
Or I guess we can just go out and burn shit down now because that always turns out so well.
As far as extremism, I could quote the founding father who says something about that. I won't. Its like a big tug o war right now, only the side that stands for reason is like some person getting punched in the face over and over again. We *need* two extremist parties. We absolutely should be meeting whatever scumfuck tactics with the same sort of things. The democrats need to start arresting prominent members of the other side, as I said before its NOT prosecuting political enemies because those fuckers did the crimes. We need to impeach justices, remove and arrest politicians and investigate, arrest and try the January insurrectionists for treason. The evidence is all there, Lets fuckin pursue it.
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- Jaymann
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Re: What is to be done?
True.Drazzil wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:35 amThere would be no Martin without Malcom.hepcat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:54 pmMartin Luther King Jr. would like you to read a history book at some point.Drazzil wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:08 pmViolence got us weekends, labor laws, and just about every civil right you can name It was either violence or the threat of it.
What'd voting get anyone? Biden, global warming, shredded social safety nets and the fucking neoliberal order. Wake up man.
Jaymann
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Black Lives Matter
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Black Lives Matter
- Kraken
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Re: What is to be done?
You think the people who rose to power exploiting the system will dutifully fix it when the emergency passes? Augustus promised to restore the Roman senate and step aside just as soon as it was safe to do so, and that sort of became a party platform for later emperors.Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:28 pmLike I said before - you exploit the hell out of the flaws in the system to fix it, and when you're done, you remove those flaws. You close the loopholes after you're done with them to make sure neither side can use them again.Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:53 pm And even if they do take off the gloves to seize the upper hand, that leaves us with two competing extremist parties. I suppose that's better than meekly yielding to the fascists -- I can get behind extremism in the cause of saving democracy -- but it's not exactly an ideal outcome.
Not that I see an Octavian in our future -- his reign was the best use-case ever for tyranny. That's not the tyrant we deserve.
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Re: What is to be done?
Lincoln did it, so did FDR, and Johnson. Id trade this current clusterfuck of a government for an Octavion, an Augustus or hell, even a Hadrian.Kraken wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:09 amYou think the people who rose to power exploiting the system will dutifully fix it when the emergency passes? Augustus promised to restore the Roman senate and step aside just as soon as it was safe to do so, and that sort of became a party platform for later emperors.Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:28 pmLike I said before - you exploit the hell out of the flaws in the system to fix it, and when you're done, you remove those flaws. You close the loopholes after you're done with them to make sure neither side can use them again.Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:53 pm And even if they do take off the gloves to seize the upper hand, that leaves us with two competing extremist parties. I suppose that's better than meekly yielding to the fascists -- I can get behind extremism in the cause of saving democracy -- but it's not exactly an ideal outcome.
Not that I see an Octavian in our future -- his reign was the best use-case ever for tyranny. That's not the tyrant we deserve.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
- Blackhawk
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Re: What is to be done?
But who's going to pay for the wall?
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- Holman
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Re: What is to be done?
You seem to be implying that the nonviolent Civil Rights movement (Martin) depended upon the threat of violence ("Malcom" [sic]) for success.
Can you explain what you mean?
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Re: What is to be done?
I thought of this thread when I saw the following clip. I think this is the million dollar question. Those of us in blue states/districts often say we can't do anything because our leaders are already on board. Are they really? Maybe they pay lip service but I think we might need to go farther and push them somehow TO ACT EFFECTIVELY. We need to drive them to stop being absolutely useless. The problem is we are out of time to replace them so my thoughts revolve how do we drive political competence? I still don't know what it'll take but that is the fight we face over the next year I believe.
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Re: What is to be done?
I'll give you a good one. The freedom rides where busses went into the deep south. Who do you think escorted those riders? It was dudes on motorcycles keeping the busses safe. And other people who weren't in his southern coalition often provided security in other things. I'll be damned if I can remember where I read this but I did.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
- Holman
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Re: What is to be done?
I've never heard of that, and I have a hard time believing that Southern state troopers and sheriffs allowed the Freedom Riders to travel with armed, independent security. That's just not how things were done.Drazzil wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:41 pmI'll give you a good one. The freedom rides where busses went into the deep south. Who do you think escorted those riders? It was dudes on motorcycles keeping the busses safe. And other people who weren't in his southern coalition often provided security in other things. I'll be damned if I can remember where I read this but I did.
As I understand it, the Freedom Riders were escorted by the cops themselves (or National Guard) because state governments understood the bad optics of allowing the Klan/etc to act openly against them in daylight. When those attacks came, they came at night or when a demonstration could be declared a "riot" by the cops.
There were some riders ambushed when a cop escort was unavailable. They seem not to have had any means of defending themselves.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
- Blackhawk
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Re: What is to be done?
The Freedom Riders got their attention - and achieved change - by being the victims of violence, not the perpetrators.
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- Blackhawk
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Re: What is to be done?
It wasn't a parade. It was non-stop attacks and arrests against a group who was, for the most part, trying to get lunch of go to the bathroom. Literally. They'd drive to a segregated location and go into a whites-only bathroom or lunch counter, at which time they would often be arrested or attacked. In fact, the thing that got them national attention was when one of the busses was chased out of town, the tires blown out, and then a bomb thrown inside with the passengers still in it. When they fled, they were beaten.
So not only is this not a good example for you, Drazzil, it is actually a pretty good counter-example. The people using violence were the people who lost.
And as often as not, the cops had gotten reports when there were mobs waiting for the busses, and would end their escort before they arrived there. In other words, they'd escort them down the highway, but not into town where the attacks were actually occurring.Holman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:45 pm
As I understand it, the Freedom Riders were escorted by the cops themselves (or National Guard) because state governments understood the bad optics of allowing the Klan/etc to act openly against them in daylight. When those attacks came, they came at night or when a demonstration could be declared a "riot" by the cops.
So not only is this not a good example for you, Drazzil, it is actually a pretty good counter-example. The people using violence were the people who lost.
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Re: What is to be done?
Well considering that a vote means nothing these days, and the system that's lurching into Orban territory has no one in elected office to oppose it. I still believe that the Democrats and the Republicans have reached an accord since they all want the same thing, I doubt anything but an organized left willing to act from outside the system can oppose it.
I dunno about you guys but at this point I'm willing to Balkanize. Saw off the southern states like a gangrenous limb.
I dunno about you guys but at this point I'm willing to Balkanize. Saw off the southern states like a gangrenous limb.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.