[WW] Wolves of the Crimson Moon

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:01 pm

Chaosraven wrote:
As they woke in the morning, they counted themselves and counted again.

They did indeed all appear to still be alive!

VILLAGE WINS

heh, smartass.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:02 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote: We Are Not Your Playthings!

He swears it was all random. I guess we have to believe him, eh?

I wouldn't trust me as far as I could throw me.

But I have a wife who will testify on my behalf

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:03 pm

I'll reiterate that my vote for Grund had more to do with his certainty that I was a wolf. Remus was plenty convincing although the fact he was forced out should have weighed more against him. I dug my heels in verses Grund though, safe in the knowledge that 1 wolf was going down. I decided to marry myself as much as possible to simple chance after that. I was wrong about the priest being dead but still maintain that it was an odd play for dysan to remain hidden.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:05 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote: We Are Not Your Playthings!

He swears it was all random. I guess we have to believe him, eh?

I sent him a PM telling him he was an a-hole the moment I saw my role and partner. And, yes, you would have been our first victim regardless.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:06 pm

Giving the Wolves the Knowledge of their Victims Roles was indeed intended for them to gain the opportunity to Fake those Roles.

Perhaps having 10 players and starting with Night (Seer and Wolf opportunities) may swing the balance.

Simply removing the MASONS might fix it as well.

I had intended on sending Different PMs to the Normals to avoid the "Innocent" metagame... and then gave them a hidden way to "verify" each other anyway...

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:08 pm

Austin wrote:I'll reiterate that my vote for Grund had more to do with his certainty that I was a wolf. Remus was plenty convincing although the fact he was forced out should have weighed more against him. I dug my heels in verses Grund though, safe in the knowledge that 1 wolf was going down. I decided to marry myself as much as possible to simple chance after that. I was wrong about the priest being dead but still maintain that it was an odd play for dysan to remain hidden.

If he comes forward you lynch him. Miss #2. The way things went he had no need to make sure I got lynched that day and he knew I was wolf since he knew Grund was Seer. Staying quiet allowed the village to get a wolf and to narrow the field for him. The voting records already meant something to him. If he comes forward the village lynches him to be sure of Grund and I giggle all the way to the gallows the next day.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:10 pm

Chaosraven wrote:I had intended on sending Different PMs to the Normals to avoid the "Innocent" metagame... and then gave them a hidden way to "verify" each other anyway...

Thats what really broke it. I like the idea though. If you do as Unagi implied by sending everyone a "you are the village Mayor, and a wolf" type message then you increase role playing but remove the tell from the villagers.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:15 pm

Remus West wrote:
Austin wrote:I'll reiterate that my vote for Grund had more to do with his certainty that I was a wolf. Remus was plenty convincing although the fact he was forced out should have weighed more against him. I dug my heels in verses Grund though, safe in the knowledge that 1 wolf was going down. I decided to marry myself as much as possible to simple chance after that. I was wrong about the priest being dead but still maintain that it was an odd play for dysan to remain hidden.
If he comes forward you lynch him. Miss #2. The way things went he had no need to make sure I got lynched that day and he knew I was wolf since he knew Grund was Seer. Staying quiet allowed the village to get a wolf and to narrow the field for him. The voting records already meant something to him. If he comes forward the village lynches him to be sure of Grund and I giggle all the way to the gallows the next day.

I wouldn't have pushed for an auto-lynch of the priest.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:16 pm

We were screwed out of the gate. Such is life. The only strange thing I saw and was surprised we got away with was the lynching of Grund on day one.

Math tells me that you have a one in three chance of nailing someone who will claim to be the seer on day one. You have a two in three chance of that seer really being a wolf if his role is contested. Nail the first seer and the second will either die in the night or openly provide you with valuable information. In this instance he could have contacted someone by PM as Austin noted.

I don't think there was a way we could have acted in such a way as to be to our benefit. Keeping roles in the dark was our best bet, but pushing for the roles to be kept in the dark would have been a spotlight as well.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:32 pm

Austin wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Austin wrote:I'll reiterate that my vote for Grund had more to do with his certainty that I was a wolf. Remus was plenty convincing although the fact he was forced out should have weighed more against him. I dug my heels in verses Grund though, safe in the knowledge that 1 wolf was going down. I decided to marry myself as much as possible to simple chance after that. I was wrong about the priest being dead but still maintain that it was an odd play for dysan to remain hidden.
If he comes forward you lynch him. Miss #2. The way things went he had no need to make sure I got lynched that day and he knew I was wolf since he knew Grund was Seer. Staying quiet allowed the village to get a wolf and to narrow the field for him. The voting records already meant something to him. If he comes forward the village lynches him to be sure of Grund and I giggle all the way to the gallows the next day.
I wouldn't have pushed for an auto-lynch of the priest.

I would have. And if you do not lynch him and he lives through 1 night? 2 nights? His days of hurting us were over as LM would not have been able to fake being a Mason so there would be no need to kill him at night, just let the suspicions grow. He had no way to prove himself without getting lynched.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:31 pm

Remus West wrote:
Chaosraven wrote:I had intended on sending Different PMs to the Normals to avoid the "Innocent" metagame... and then gave them a hidden way to "verify" each other anyway...
Thats what really broke it. I like the idea though. If you do as Unagi implied by sending everyone a "you are the village Mayor, and a wolf" type message then you increase role playing but remove the tell from the villagers.

So the Wolves and the Innocents get a minor role?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:44 pm

What the messages to Villagers had in common was that each designated a non-powered "role" such as butcher or baker.

What the messages to Villagers did not have in common was that each had a different way of saying "Villager" (e.g., Townfolk, Simple Innocent, Villager, Unpowered, Normal, etc.)

In Theory, if the Specials had also received trade roles such as thatcher and chandler, then the different ways of saying "Villager" could have prevented Austin and Unagi from forming a web of trust provided everyone knew in advance or figured out on time that this naming game was potentially exploitable for good or ill.

I think it added interesting flavor and unexpected insights/opportunities. For example, I was dead sure that Remus was a wolf, but Austin was inclined to trust Remus, because Remus had accidentally alluded to Austin's trade role. Since Austin was inclined to trust Remus for a reason to which I had no access, I was equally inclined to mistrust Austin. Likewise, Austin trusted Unagi precisely because Austin knew trade roles were different, but Unagi, not knowing trade roles were a novelty, couldn't reciprocate. If Unagi hadn't decided to roleplay his role totally unaware of the implications of doing so, Austin wouldn't have latched onto him. Furthermore, LordMortis fell into a trap that he didn't know was possible; he assumed that villagers were linking by way of something of common content rather than something of common type but different content, and this exposed the fact that he was not one of them.

Very interesting eventualities. Still, tough ruleset if you were a Wolf this time.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:58 pm

2 Werewolves - Allowed to PM at any time, must choose one NonWerewolf at Night to Kill. - given "roles"

8 NonWerewolves -
1 Seer - at night must submit one name to check for Werewolf, unless he chooses to PM one other player that following DAY.
1 Priest - MAY submit name of Dead Player to Identify
6 Regular Normal Villagers - given "roles"

Night:
Werewolves choose victim (werewolves will be given ROLE of Victim)
Seer chooses to (a) Identify as Wolf/Non-Wolf at Night or (b) PM during the Day
Priest may submit a Dead Player to Identify their ROLE

Day:
CONFESSION - Each Day, One of the Six Regular Normal Villagers will be chosen at Random. That Players name will be given to the Priest along with their "role", the Random *WILL* include any dead RNV
Village votes to Hang one Player. Majority is actual Majority and Irreversible once achieved.
Death will reveal no information in Public.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:59 pm

This would give a Boost to the Priest, and as he can NAME the role of the RNV, that RNV would be able to verify.

The Wolves would be out of the loop on that one.

The even number allows the game to begin at Night.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:28 pm

If you are going to give out "roles" to the villagers you should give out "roles" to everyone. Otherwise you force the wolves to choose, do I fake villager or do I fake a power. If a wolf says "I'm the baker" but then needs to pretend to be the Seer he would be out of luck. The roles can add flavor but anytime you create less hiding space for the wolves they lose an edge they deperately need.

One other aspect to de-metaize the process that LM mentioned to me was to post exactly what each message will contain. I.E. - "6 people will receive this message you are an Innocent" posted for all to read means nobody can use the trIck to try and gain trust.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:30 pm

Chaosraven wrote:This would give a Boost to the Priest, and as he can NAME the role of the RNV, that RNV would be able to verify.

The Wolves would be out of the loop on that one.

The even number allows the game to begin at Night.

This is essentially 2 Seers. One which may or may not find wolves and can be faked. One which builds a trust block and can not be faked. Still slanted anti-wolf very harshly IMO.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:53 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:
Unagi wrote:I'm going to withdraw my Kelric vote and move it to Grundbegriff.
I don't know how you play, though I'm glad you joined the party.
I just hope you're better at rebounds than at shooting.

Thankfully I am apparently better at rebounds than I am at shooting.

I think this was a great game and I'm happy I joined in, this was a lot of fun really.

A few comments.
The 'trade roles' the 3 villagers were given was a nice touch. I really didn't have any clue (and really neither did Austin) if the wolves and specials were also given 'trade roles' so didn't think of it as a key to innocence at first. Even after Austin's hints finally soaked in

, I was concerned that he could have been playing me for a role-playing fool... I actually considered that perhaps all 9 of us were given 'trade roles', but only us poor un-powered 'dwelled on them', as it was all we had... where the rest of you glossed over that part and never thought about it again. Ultimately, it seemed worth the gamble to at the very least - trust the 1 other person that celebrated their 'trade role' too, Austin. When LordMortis made his post about what he thought Austin was going on about - I was really shocked he didn't at least throw in some token 'trade role' as an example. We would have both probably bought into it, and the trusted trio would have been tainted by a wolf.

Regarding st_dysan's play of the Priest. While I wasn't totally onboard the priest revealing himself on the first morning (day 2) - I really couldn't see why he would stay silent past that (day 3). I'm gonna guess we'll never find out why.

Remus West's lies on day2. I thought that could have been played better - but not sure how I would have handled it. Personally, I think the Remus+Grund back-to-back lynching was a done deal on day 1 - and to fight it came across as guilty squirming.

LordMortis really nearly did win this and played very well I think.

I still can't imagine why people thought there were two wolves left on day 3.

I really don't think its true that the wolves had no chance. Had st_dysan logged in, I am sure he would have voted for Austin (who planned to lynch him the next day), and that would have left the game Wide Open to a wolf victory. Wow, i am still getting over the fact that st_dysan was the priest.

Anyhow - I can't wait to play again!

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:19 pm

OH, and just for good measure.
Can we lynch st_dysan today anyhow?

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:32 pm

Remus West wrote:
Chaosraven wrote:This would give a Boost to the Priest, and as he can NAME the role of the RNV, that RNV would be able to verify.

The Wolves would be out of the loop on that one.

The even number allows the game to begin at Night.
This is essentially 2 Seers. One which may or may not find wolves and can be faked. One which builds a trust block and can not be faked. Still slanted anti-wolf very harshly IMO.

VERY HARSHLY??

The Village gets No Confirmation. Priest gets ONE name/role per day, including possible dead. There are SIX people to hide in.

As far as Can't Be Faked, perhaps the Wolves get "Roles" of Victim as well. Then when the Priest dies (which they will know) they can pretend to be him?

Man you are just never satisfied.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:37 pm

Remus West wrote:If you are going to give out "roles" to the villagers you should give out "roles" to everyone. Otherwise you force the wolves to choose, do I fake villager or do I fake a power. If a wolf says "I'm the baker" but then needs to pretend to be the Seer he would be out of luck. The roles can add flavor but anytime you create less hiding space for the wolves they lose an edge they deperately need.

One other aspect to de-metaize the process that LM mentioned to me was to post exactly what each message will contain. I.E. - "6 people will receive this message you are an Innocent" posted for all to read means nobody can use the trIck to try and gain trust.

I think I like the "Roles" being used for the Priest to build.

Mainly because with no Protector role, the Wolves cannot be stopped from their chosen victim, that means the Powered need to weigh their options with coming forward.

Giving the Wolves the Role of their victim, when the village gets neither Night or Day Role information gives a Heavy edge to the Wolves.

I guess most people don't consider the 3 Powers that the Bad Guys normally get. The ability to PM, the ability to Kill at Night without majority of all players, and the Knowledge of Who Isn't a Wolf.

st_dysan · Post by **st_dysan** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:38 pm

I guess I have to pipe in now... I've been really busy this week but... I was totally against anyone who wanted the priest revealed early on. I dropped a couple of hints about Kelrics and Grund roles, but I had to be carefull because I voted against grund. I tried to play that one off as the other game revenge.

I wasnt the most active in this game but I was playing my usual play style. Lets not lynch me out of spite, lets just congratulate ourselves on a successful win.

st_dysan · Post by **st_dysan** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:46 pm

Also, I felt that if I came forward with this vote as priest, the wolf would have got me tonight, I still was very concerned about austin and Unagi, not sure if one of those three, w mortis was a wolf, that played big into my silence so I just dropped hints hoping to play on them later. This game was most interesting in that the villagers didnt know if an innocent or wolf was killed by vote.

Nice game

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:48 pm

One of the things a Powered Player *always* has to consider is how important the Information he has is, compared to Possible info.

For example, when does a Seer come forward? With a batch of NonWolves?
With one or more Wolves?

And I have been in that position, weighing how vital my Info is and whether it will even be believed.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:50 pm

st_dysan wrote:Also, I felt that if I came forward with this vote as priest, the wolf would have got me tonight, I still was very concerned about austin and Unagi, not sure if one of those three, w mortis was a wolf, that played big into my silence so I just dropped hints hoping to play on them later. This game was most interesting in that the villagers didnt know if an innocent or wolf was killed by vote.
Nice game

(btw, just kidding on the lingering lynch)
Also, just to disect and debate strategy academically here...

If tomorrow started with Kraegor, Lord Mortis and you what good would it have done to have come out then either?
You would post something like "Wait, I am not the powerless villager I just claimed to be, I am actually the priest! Grund was the Seer, Kelric was a villager and Austin was too."
Meanwhile LordMortis is hiding behind the fact that Austin and Unagi were ready to lynch you (and both are now dead) and Kraegor himself was ready to suspect you.
Sitting on the power the whole game would have only been helpful with more hints and subtle nudging than you were able to drop (IMO).

The flip side is true too- coming out at any time may haven't have made much of a difference. You'd have been lynched or eaten anyways most likely. (but then... that sacrifice may have saved pr0ner, which would have made a nice base of trust with him and Kraegor later on.)

In any case, it was a nice game.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:07 am

Yeah, I was just saying I don't get the play. I do get laying low to collect info but once Day 1 passed, coming out on any other day it probably would have been really tough to convince folks you are the priest. Each day it gets tougher and appears more of a desperate wolf move.

That's why I left room for other opportunities when trying to explain to Kraegor why we needed him. You had to be either ignoring the powerless villager hints, you missed them, or you just didn't get them because... ... well I was thinking because maybe some how 2 wolves slipped through but I stopped really focusing on it as I knew we had Mortis already. I was trying hard to be vague to allow for a wolf slip and he did when he mentioned that he thought I recognized something common from the villager message.

Octopus Overlords

[WW] Wolves of the Crimson Moon

Re: [WW] Wolves of the Crimson Moon