Poverty in the United States

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Poverty in the United States

Post by Smoove_B »

Since this will invariably devolve into a discussion on how great Obama is, increased taxes and the evils of Fox news, I decided to post it here.

Apparently the modern definition of poverty includes Air Conditioning and Xboxen:
Data from the Department of Energy and other agencies show that the average poor family, as defined by Census officials:

● Lives in a home that is in good repair, not crowded, and equipped with air conditioning, clothes washer and dryer, and cable or satellite TV service.

● Prepares meals in a kitchen with a refrigerator, coffee maker and microwave as well as oven and stove.

● Enjoys two color TVs, a DVD player, VCR and — if children are there — an Xbox, PlayStation, or other video game system.

● Had enough money in the past year to meet essential needs, including adequate food and medical care.
Of course we have all argued the finer points here over what it means to be "rich", but I was surprised at the level "poor" was apparently set. Here is the full paper, which is rather lengthy. Of course for political reasons defining exactly what it means to be poor is just as important, and I would agree with the comments provided by the
National Review:

“Regrettably, most discussions of poverty in the U.S. rely on sensationalism, exaggeration, and misinformation,” Rector says. “But an effective anti-poverty policy must be based on an accurate assessment of actual living conditions and the causes of deprivation.”
Not surprisingly even our apparently poor still have it better than most people around the world so take that for what it's worth.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by $iljanus »

One positive thing I take away from this is that we don't have Third World squalor among most of the poor in this country.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by LordMortis »

Smoove_B wrote:Since this will invariably devolve into a discussion on how great Obama is, increased taxes and the evils of Fox news, I decided to post it here.

Apparently the modern definition of poverty includes Air Conditioning and Xboxen:
Data from the Department of Energy and other agencies show that the average poor family, as defined by Census officials:

● Lives in a home that is in good repair, not crowded, and equipped with air conditioning, clothes washer and dryer, and cable or satellite TV service.

● Prepares meals in a kitchen with a refrigerator, coffee maker and microwave as well as oven and stove.

● Enjoys two color TVs, a DVD player, VCR and — if children are there — an Xbox, PlayStation, or other video game system.

● Had enough money in the past year to meet essential needs, including adequate food and medical care.
Of course we have all argued the finer points here over what it means to be "rich", but I was surprised at the level "poor" was apparently set. Here is the full paper, which is rather lengthy. Of course for political reasons defining exactly what it means to be poor is just as important, and I would agree with the comments provided by the
National Review:

“Regrettably, most discussions of poverty in the U.S. rely on sensationalism, exaggeration, and misinformation,” Rector says. “But an effective anti-poverty policy must be based on an accurate assessment of actual living conditions and the causes of deprivation.”
Not surprisingly even our apparently poor still have it better than most people around the world so take that for what it's worth.
Unfair. Not being "average" does not make you impoverished by any measure I can see. Comparing not having and XBox with squatting on a house with no running water while you actually wonder if you can provide enough food for your child is just not fair.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Perhaps it's just my inner geek, but I find it oddly incongruent that while the average poor family likely possesses an Xbox, PS3 or Wii, they also still use VCRs.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Defiant »

Anonymous Bosch wrote:Perhaps it's just my inner geek, but I find it oddly incongruent that while the average poor family likely possesses an Xbox, PS3 or Wii, they also still use VCRs.
They said playstation, not PS3. :ninja:
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by El Guapo »

Anonymous Bosch wrote:Perhaps it's just my inner geek, but I find it oddly incongruent that while the average poor family likely possesses an Xbox, PS3 or Wii, they also still use VCRs.
I suppose you're not going to get a separate DVD / Blu Ray player with limited funds - a gaming system could serve both functions (but wouldn't play VHS tapes).

I mean, it's absolutely true that you're better off being poor in the U.S. than being non-rich in many countries. Which is comforting, but not exactly super-relevant to U.S. poverty analysis. Poor is a relative term, and we ought to help the poor even if they're very well off compared to the middle class 100 years ago or most people in impoverished countries today.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by noxiousdog »

El Guapo wrote: I mean, it's absolutely true that you're better off being poor in the U.S. than being non-rich in many countries. Which is comforting, but not exactly super-relevant to U.S. poverty analysis. Poor is a relative term, and we ought to help the poor even if they're very well off compared to the middle class 100 years ago or most people in impoverished countries today.
It depends on what you mean by help. It also presupposes there are unlimited funds.

And not that I'm saying we shouldn't, it's just at some point you're getting very marginal improvements for your investment. I would like to see it more targeted and more of a requirement for it to be utilized in the manner it was intended.

Specific example, there is a Childrens Health Insurance Program in Texas. My mother is a school nurse. She repeatedly offers the information to parents, and has been told on many occassions (to be fair, it could have happened once and she would say it's happend many times) that the parents say, that's ok, i'll just take them to the emergency room. So, not that CHIP should go away, but throwing more money at it doesn't seem all that productive.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Smoove_B »

Anonymous Bosch wrote:Perhaps it's just my inner geek, but I find it oddly incongruent that while the average poor family likely possesses an Xbox, PS3 or Wii, they also still use VCRs.
My local library still offers a ridiculously large selection of children's movies and cartoons on VHS. I find it incredibly strange as well, but I'm guessing there's a demand.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by El Guapo »

noxiousdog wrote:
El Guapo wrote: I mean, it's absolutely true that you're better off being poor in the U.S. than being non-rich in many countries. Which is comforting, but not exactly super-relevant to U.S. poverty analysis. Poor is a relative term, and we ought to help the poor even if they're very well off compared to the middle class 100 years ago or most people in impoverished countries today.
It depends on what you mean by help. It also presupposes there are unlimited funds.

And not that I'm saying we shouldn't, it's just at some point you're getting very marginal improvements for your investment. I would like to see it more targeted and more of a requirement for it to be utilized in the manner it was intended.

Specific example, there is a Childrens Health Insurance Program in Texas. My mother is a school nurse. She repeatedly offers the information to parents, and has been told on many occassions (to be fair, it could have happened once and she would say it's happend many times) that the parents say, that's ok, i'll just take them to the emergency room. So, not that CHIP should go away, but throwing more money at it doesn't seem all that productive.
Sure. I'm just saying that I'm in favor of helping the poor, and that that calculation is largely independent of poor conditions in the U.S. being better than conditions in many other countries.

Of course any particular proposal to help the poor should have benefits weighed against costs, and may not be a good idea.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Smoove_B »

I'm reading through the bigger report and some of the findings are just amazing:
On average, the poor are well nourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children. In most cases, it is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than higher-income children consume, and their protein intake averages 100 percent above recommended levels. In fact, most poor children are super-nourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier than the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II
And my local paper has been pushing food pantry stories for more than a year, making it seem like they're constantly being utlized:
In fact, while the use of food pantries and emergency kitchens has increased during the current recession,[29] poor families generally did not use charity food pantries or soup kitchens. The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) reports that only one poor family in five took food from a food pantry even once during all of 2009. Far fewer ate at a food kitchen.
I have to wonder if there's a difference between those that are living with being "poor" versus those that suddenly find themselves poor.

An observation:
First, the report provides no information on the actual living conditions of the persons identified as poor. It simply states that a specified number of persons are poor without giving any information on what poverty means in the real world. A detailed description of the living conditions of the poor would greatly enhance public understanding. In fact, without a detailed description of living conditions, public discussions of poverty are meaningless.

Second, the Census report massively undercounts the economic resources provided to poor people. The Census asserts that a household is poor if its “money income” falls below a specified threshold. In 2009, the poverty income threshold for a family of four was $21,756. However, in counting the money income of households, the Census ignores virtually the entire welfare state. For example, there are over 70 means-tested welfare programs that provide cash, food, housing, medical care, and social services to poor and low-income persons. Major means-tested welfare programs include Temporary Assistance for Needy Families; Supplemental Security Income; the Earned Income Tax Credit; food stamps; the Women, Infants, and Children food program; public housing; and Medicaid. (Social Security and Medicare are not means-tested welfare programs.)

In 2008, federal and state governments spent $714 billion on means-tested welfare programs, but the Census counted only about 4 percent of this as “money income” for purposes of determining whether a household was poor. The bottom line is that the economic resources available to poor persons are vastly greater than the Census claims.

In fact, the U.S. Department of Labor finds that the lowest-income one-fifth of households appear to spend $1.87 for every $1.00 of income that the Census says these households have. If the free medical care and public housing subsidies given to these households were counted, then the gap between expenditure and income would be even greater.
And from the conclusion:
Poor families clearly struggle to make ends meet, but in most cases, they are struggling to pay for air conditioning and cable TV while putting food on the table. The current recession has increased the number of Americans who are poor, but it does not appear to have greatly reduced the living standards of the average poor family.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by AWS260 »

Smoove_B wrote:
On average, the poor are well nourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children. In most cases, it is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than higher-income children consume, and their protein intake averages 100 percent above recommended levels. In fact, most poor children are super-nourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier than the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Arcanis »

Up until recently my family would have been considered poor, we probably aren't very high above that level now either. We have always made sure we had food, money for the AC (it really is a requirement for survival here), paid our insurance and car notes on time, etc... Really the only difference between us and your likely middle class family was a couple of hundred in SSI each month, no medical insurance (but state coverage for the little one), and that we had to save our money for any "nice" things like our playstation 3 and smart phones. So being classified as poor isn't too bad you just have to be smart about what you spend your money on and really need to watch what you get that has a recurring cost.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by SpaceLord »

AWS260 wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:
On average, the poor are well nourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children. In most cases, it is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than higher-income children consume, and their protein intake averages 100 percent above recommended levels. In fact, most poor children are super-nourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier than the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II
Super-nourished!

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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Matrix »

I agree with Arcanis, being poor and well off is not that much different. At least as far as essentials are concerned. I was not well off for long time, but i could afford most of the essentials, just took more careful planing. Past few years has been significantly better off financially, but my life style only marginally changed, since i kind of had all essentials, and i prefer simpler life style for the most part. This is in part thanks to being in US. On the other hand in Russia, poor is poor. Barely no food, nutrition value horrible, etc. Definition of the above US poor person, would probably be description of solid middle class in Russia.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Scuzz »

I am guessing that in today's world the difference poor and middle class is the source of income and a couple months without that source of income.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by GreenGoo »

Scuzz wrote:I am guessing that in today's world the difference poor and middle class is the source of income and a couple months without that source of income.
And probably home ownership.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Scuzz »

GreenGoo wrote:
Scuzz wrote:I am guessing that in today's world the difference poor and middle class is the source of income and a couple months without that source of income.
And probably home ownership.

maybe five years ago but many people are renting now.......
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by GreenGoo »

Scuzz wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
Scuzz wrote:I am guessing that in today's world the difference poor and middle class is the source of income and a couple months without that source of income.
And probably home ownership.

maybe five years ago but many people are renting now.......
Good point.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by LordMortis »

Scuzz wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
Scuzz wrote:I am guessing that in today's world the difference poor and middle class is the source of income and a couple months without that source of income.
And probably home ownership.

maybe five years ago but many people are renting now.......
Maybe he means that home ownership helps define the poor. I know the negative equity in my home has me in the hole about $85,000 and I was one of the "wise" ones who got a house he could afford, and has been paying extra principle every month. I've never held debt in my life. No college debt and only small car debt. Now I've got twenty years of useless debt on my head.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by msduncan »

LordMortis wrote:
Scuzz wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
Scuzz wrote:I am guessing that in today's world the difference poor and middle class is the source of income and a couple months without that source of income.
And probably home ownership.

maybe five years ago but many people are renting now.......
Maybe he means that home ownership helps define the poor. I know the negative equity in my home has me in the hole about $85,000 and I was one of the "wise" ones who got a house he could afford, and has been paying extra principle every month. I've never held debt in my life. No college debt and only small car debt. Now I've got twenty years of useless debt on my head.

Home ownership. Yes. The (D) insistence from the 1990s that everyone in the world deserved and had a right to home ownership. Of course this led to creative financing, people getting loans that had no business owning houses, and the ultimate collapse of the economy.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by GreenGoo »

msduncan wrote:Home ownership. Yes. The (D) insistence from the 1990s that everyone in the world deserved and had a right to home ownership. Of course this led to creative financing, people getting loans that had no business owning houses, and the ultimate collapse of the economy.
No, scuzz has it right. I was differentiating between the poor and the middle class by who has a mortgage or owns their primary residence.

And wow, you are really on a roll. We've covered the collapse of the economy in detail here. It's not as simple as you suggest it is, and a decent case can be made that it was the financial institutions mishandling of those mortgages that was the primary cause, not the debt itself.

Did a (D) piss in your cereal recently?
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by LawBeefaroni »

msduncan wrote: Home ownership. Yes. The (D) insistence from the 1990s that everyone in the world deserved and had a right to home ownership. Of course this led to creative financing, people getting loans that had no business owning houses, and the ultimate collapse of the economy.
Why does everything have to have a (D) to blame? The (R) led repeal of Glass-Steagall was as much to blame as anything. Democrats "insisted", Republicans made it possible. Same end, various means.

A venal government helped giant banks steal equity from the middle class. Simple as that. D, R, they're all to blame. But I guess ignoring half the truth because you have party blinders on is the American way.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Smoove_B »

Well it all goes back to my original point - when you think about what it means to be "poor" in the United States, you're thinking of a family of four renting a 150sq ft home. But apparently our poor are living pay check to pay check so they can pay for A/C and get more games for their consoles.

Maybe it's all about justification for cutting the threads of the social safety net we maintain. I dunno.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by coopasonic »

Smoove_B wrote:a family of four renting a 150sq ft home.
Sweet, my house can be converted to a 25 unit apartment building. That ought to pay the mortage.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Scuzz »

My office is in an area bordered by a residential area, industrial area and a freeway. When a home comes up for rent a sign usually goes up on it saying it qualifies for government assisted rent (section 8 housing I believe is the term). While this isn't a great neighborhood (or probably a safe place to walk around at night) it is still an area of single family homes.

That a family can get a single family home on the government dollar is pretty nice. Especially in this economy when others are losing their homes and paying rent. And rents in today's market are ridiculous here.

So one government agency pays for their rent, another helps pay for their utility and phone bills, another helps with food stamps etc.

I have no desire to ever need any of that assistance, but to deny it exists is to denigrate our society.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

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Smoove_B wrote:Well it all goes back to my original point - when you think about what it means to be "poor" in the United States, you're thinking of a family of four renting a 150sq ft home. But apparently our poor are living pay check to pay check so they can pay for A/C and get more games for their consoles.
Hey, whatever keeps them from storming gated neighborhoods and Chase branches...



I do have a feeling that it's a precipitous drop from having A/C to being homeless. I know around here there are plenty of utility bills that are months or years in arrears that still have service due to hardship grants and whatnot. I also think it's illegal to shut off certain necessary utilities if a person/household applies for such a grant, whether they exceed their funding or not.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Scuzz »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:Well it all goes back to my original point - when you think about what it means to be "poor" in the United States, you're thinking of a family of four renting a 150sq ft home. But apparently our poor are living pay check to pay check so they can pay for A/C and get more games for their consoles.
Hey, whatever keeps them from storming gated neighborhoods and Chase branches...



I do have a feeling that it's a precipitous drop from having A/C to being homeless. I know around here there are plenty of utility bills that are months or years in arrears that still have service due to hardship grants and whatnot. I also think it's illegal to shut off certain necessary utilities if a person/household applies for such a grant, whether they exceed their funding or not.
It happens but i do think you are right.....
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by noxiousdog »

Smoove_B wrote:Well it all goes back to my original point - when you think about what it means to be "poor" in the United States, you're thinking of a family of four renting a 150sq ft home. But apparently our poor are living pay check to pay check so they can pay for A/C and get more games for their consoles.

Maybe it's all about justification for cutting the threads of the social safety net we maintain. I dunno.
Ask Fireball. In the 2012 election thread he's claiming that Texas middle class and poor are much worse off than they were 8 years ago. Maybe Texas poor don't have VCRs.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by GreenGoo »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:Well it all goes back to my original point - when you think about what it means to be "poor" in the United States, you're thinking of a family of four renting a 150sq ft home. But apparently our poor are living pay check to pay check so they can pay for A/C and get more games for their consoles.
Hey, whatever keeps them from storming gated neighborhoods and Chase branches...
This is very nearly my own thought on this.

I've got a buddy who's fond of claiming that that's what American Idol is for. Keeping the masses busy while coalition of corporate/government worlds rob them blind.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by LawBeefaroni »

GreenGoo wrote: I've got a buddy who's fond of claiming that that's what American Idol is for. Keeping the masses busy while coalition of corporate/government worlds rob them blind.
That's what American Idol is for. That's what the NFL is for. That's what political parties are for. Get people "active" for a cause, harmlessly.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by silverjon »

bread and circuses
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Scuzz »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
GreenGoo wrote: I've got a buddy who's fond of claiming that that's what American Idol is for. Keeping the masses busy while coalition of corporate/government worlds rob them blind.
That's what American Idol is for. That's what the NFL is for. That's what political parties are for. Get people "active" for a cause, harmlessly.

I concur......to soothe the masses
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Smoove_B »

Well maybe the new measure for "poor" will be whether or not you use credit cards to buy gas and food.
“Consumers, particularly in the lower-income end, are being forced to use their credit cards for everyday spending like gas and food,” said Tavares, who’s based in Atlanta. “That’s because there’s been no other positive catalyst, like an increase in wages, to offset higher prices. It’s a cash-flow problem.”
Although I use them for that exact purpose, the difference being our cards are zeroed out every billing cycle. Not sure how you would account for that in mining the data.
The use of credit cards is a “smoking gun” that indicates some consumers, including the long-term unemployed who have lost jobless benefits, are resorting to other sources of cash flow just to “get by,” said David Rosenberg, chief economist at Gluskin Sheff & Associates Inc. in Toronto.

“People on the margin are putting necessities on their credit cards and this is a trend that’s very consistent with what lower-end retailers have been saying about their paycheck cycles,” Rosenberg said.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Defiant »

Smoove_B wrote:Well maybe the new measure for "poor" will be whether or not you use credit cards to buy gas and food.
“Consumers, particularly in the lower-income end, are being forced to use their credit cards for everyday spending like gas and food,” said Tavares, who’s based in Atlanta. “That’s because there’s been no other positive catalyst, like an increase in wages, to offset higher prices. It’s a cash-flow problem.”
Although I use them for that exact purpose, the difference being our cards are zeroed out every billing cycle. Not sure how you would account for that in mining the data.
Ditto, because of issues of ease, safety and rewards.
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Grifman
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Grifman »

LawBeefaroni wrote:A venal government helped giant banks steal equity from the middle class. Simple as that. D, R, they're all to blame. But I guess ignoring half the truth because you have party blinders on is the American way.
Given the huge losses banks have taken on bad mortages, I'd say the banks weren't very good thieves. Your scenario is just as flawed as msd's.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by GreenGoo »

Until they got caught, they were doing pretty darn well. How many years did it take before their "questionable" practices caught up with them?

They took huge losses because they packaged those mortgages in such a convoluted fashion that when they had to actually valuate them, they couldn't. Before that they were doing great when they could just make up a number and people would pay it.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by noxiousdog »

GreenGoo wrote:Until they got caught, they were doing pretty darn well. How many years did it take before their "questionable" practices caught up with them?

They took huge losses because they packaged those mortgages in such a convoluted fashion that when they had to actually valuate them, they couldn't. Before that they were doing great when they could just make up a number and people would pay it.
Less than a decade. That's not very much considering 2 majors and an investment bank went bankrupt.
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Grifman
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Grifman »

GreenGoo wrote:Until they got caught, they were doing pretty darn well. How many years did it take before their "questionable" practices caught up with them?
No, Lawbeefaroni said the banks stole equity from mortgage holders. That didn't happen while they were packaging mortgages and selling them. That would only occur once the collapse happened and banks presumably in Lawbeefaroni's world could foreclose and seize properties, then sell them at a profit (hence stealing equity). The only problem is that the real estate was so overvalued that there was little equity to steal and the bank's lost and are losing tons on repossessed homes.

So you're not talking about the same thing.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Grifman wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:Until they got caught, they were doing pretty darn well. How many years did it take before their "questionable" practices caught up with them?
No, Lawbeefaroni said the banks stole equity from mortgage holders. That didn't happen while they were packaging mortgages and selling them. That would only occur once the collapse happened and banks presumably in Lawbeefaroni's world could foreclose and seize properties, then sell them at a profit (hence stealing equity). The only problem is that the real estate was so overvalued that there was little equity to steal and the bank's lost and are losing tons on repossessed homes.
Actually, I said they stole equity from the middle class. And yes, it did happen while they were packaging mortgages and selling them. They carved up the tranches and kept the good stuff. While they were shorting what they sold and were buying insurance for positions they didn't even own. All with a government guarantee. But I guess that's "Lawbeefaroni's world."

Further, banks may be losing on repossessed homes but the middle class isn't getting that lost money back. It's moved on up. Banks are merely vehicles.
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Re: Poverty in the United States

Post by Grifman »

LawBeefaroni wrote:Actually, I said they stole equity from the middle class. And yes, it did happen while they were packaging mortgages and selling them. They carved up the tranches and kept the good stuff. While they were shorting what they sold and were buying insurance for positions they didn't even own. All with a government guarantee. But I guess that's "Lawbeefaroni's world."
You still haven't explained how this happened if the banks are/were taking huge losses on the equity they supposed "stole". So far you have a story, but not a lot behind it. The huge losses would seem to indicate that there wasn't really anything to steal. I'll be glad to listen to your evidence but so far all you've done is assert.

EDIT: I'll also note that from my reading, there were very few "good" tranches when it came to subprime lending. The whole lot was contaminated so keeping the supposedly "good" tranches did no good. That stuff was just as bad as the rest.
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