Not a Socialist

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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by LawBeefaroni »

TiLT wrote:It's nice to see people catching up on what we foreigners have known for a long time. It's a bit funny (and a bit sad) to observe US politics sometimes, to a large degree because your two-party system consists of two right-leaning parties. One slightly less than the other, but both are still on the right side of the spectrum. Yet both toss dirt and slurs at each other as if they were polar opposites.
:grund:
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by msduncan »

SpaceLord wrote:As I said earlier, the comments in the current NASA thread, even from 'conservatives,' illustrate that the cries of 'But Socialism!' are way, way overblown. If you support government be involved in anything like, I dunno, space exploration...they you're supporting something socialist.
That is simply not true. I've always viewed NASA and the government space exploration program as military or at least pseudo-military.

I've always said that space is the ultimate 'high-ground'. We need to take it as such...and science benefits as a positive side-effect. National pride also is a factor.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by SpaceLord »

msduncan wrote:
SpaceLord wrote:As I said earlier, the comments in the current NASA thread, even from 'conservatives,' illustrate that the cries of 'But Socialism!' are way, way overblown. If you support government be involved in anything like, I dunno, space exploration...they you're supporting something socialist.
That is simply not true. I've always viewed NASA and the government space exploration program as military or at least pseudo-military.

I've always said that space is the ultimate 'high-ground'. We need to take it as such...and science benefits as a positive side-effect. National pride also is a factor.
I agree, I love NASA. But it's socialist. That's just the way it is. Almost as socialist as the military.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by geezer »

msduncan wrote:
SpaceLord wrote:As I said earlier, the comments in the current NASA thread, even from 'conservatives,' illustrate that the cries of 'But Socialism!' are way, way overblown. If you support government be involved in anything like, I dunno, space exploration...they you're supporting something socialist.
That is simply not true. I've always viewed NASA and the government space exploration program as military or at least pseudo-military.

I've always said that space is the ultimate 'high-ground'. We need to take it as such...and science benefits as a positive side-effect. National pride also is a factor.
It's a reasonable argument for the necessity of space research. But it's utterly irrelevant to the fact that you clearly pick and chose what's "socilaist" (bad) or "not socialist" (good) based upon your personal beliefs regarding what the government should pay for. I'd love to see your reaction to the scope of DARPA grants that are, on one hand, quasi-military (or overtly military), but on the other are rife with the kind of basic science studies that seem to appear ludicrous on the surface and always get highlighted as examples of "government waste" by people who wouldn't know a lab coat from a lab rat.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by TiLT »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
TiLT wrote:It's nice to see people catching up on what we foreigners have known for a long time. It's a bit funny (and a bit sad) to observe US politics sometimes, to a large degree because your two-party system consists of two right-leaning parties. One slightly less than the other, but both are still on the right side of the spectrum. Yet both toss dirt and slurs at each other as if they were polar opposites.
:grund:
Care to let the rest of us know what you think instead of pretending you're better without actually, you know, supporting that stance with fact?
Insert witty comment here.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by silverjon »

"We foreigners understand politics more better than you stupid 'Mericans. All you ever do is insult each other."
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by LawBeefaroni »

TiLT wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
TiLT wrote:It's nice to see people catching up on what we foreigners have known for a long time. It's a bit funny (and a bit sad) to observe US politics sometimes, to a large degree because your two-party system consists of two right-leaning parties. One slightly less than the other, but both are still on the right side of the spectrum. Yet both toss dirt and slurs at each other as if they were polar opposites.
:grund:
Care to let the rest of us know what you think instead of pretending you're better without actually, you know, supporting that stance with fact?
Just that you think "people are catching up" when it's what I've been saying all along. We're not all as ignorant as we seem.

Don't have time to egosearch but trust me, I've said it repeatedly. Apparently in vain.

IOW, I used the "banging my head against a brick wall" to indicate the fact that I feel like I'm banging my head againt a brick wall, not that I am pretending "to be better."
Last edited by LawBeefaroni on Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by TiLT »

silverjon wrote:"We foreigners understand politics more better than you stupid 'Mericans. All you ever do is insult each other."
All right, I guess I did come off a bit like that. Doesn't change the point I was getting at though. Hell, even Futurama pointed this out with their whole John Jackson vs Jack Johnson election debate. :P
Insert witty comment here.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by TiLT »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
TiLT wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
TiLT wrote:It's nice to see people catching up on what we foreigners have known for a long time. It's a bit funny (and a bit sad) to observe US politics sometimes, to a large degree because your two-party system consists of two right-leaning parties. One slightly less than the other, but both are still on the right side of the spectrum. Yet both toss dirt and slurs at each other as if they were polar opposites.
:grund:
Care to let the rest of us know what you think instead of pretending you're better without actually, you know, supporting that stance with fact?
Just that you think "people are catching up" when it's what I've been saying all along. We're not all as ignorant as we seem.

Don't have time to egosearch but trust me, I've said it repeatedly. Apparently in vain.

IOW, I used the "banging my head against a brick wall" to indicate the fact that I feel like I'm banging my head againt a brink wall, not that I am pretending "to be better."
And this is why I prefer to do my debates face to face. Internet communication so easily leads to misinterpretations. :)
Insert witty comment here.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by LawBeefaroni »

No problem. :wink: But I feel compelled now and I'm on lunch:

First three results:
LawBeefaroni wrote: There's that consensus. Not enough people know how to make change. Our political system has people fighting along party lines over fabricated issues.

I'm not sure what you expect me to do. If you mean the American people, we can't. We're petty two-party idiots who can't agree on the color of a pile of dog shit because we are so tied to party lines being parroted by politicians know nothing about the issues other than [those] which interested parties contribute to campaign funds [for].
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Ok, back to: Is NASA socialist, yes or no?

I say that Hubble is seeking out viable firing positions in the Eagle Nebula. Once we figure out how to deliver ordnance across 7,000ly in a dozen lifetimes or less, China is toast.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by msduncan »

LawBeefaroni wrote:Ok, back to: Is NASA socialist, yes or no?

I say that Hubble is seeking out viable firing positions in the Eagle Nebula. Once we figure out how to deliver ordnance across 7,000ly in a dozen lifetimes or less, China is toast.

On the contrary, my friend:

We already launched. China just won't know it for another 100,000 years.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by SpaceLord »

msduncan, the artful dodger.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by Kraken »

LawBeefaroni wrote:Ok, back to: Is NASA socialist, yes or no?
When people pool their talent and money to accomplish a goal that none can do individually, without expecting to profit, is that socialism? Or is it only socialism when they use other people's money?
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by Isgrimnur »

See, it all depends on how you define it. The oldest definition refers to the means of production being publicly owned. Given that the vast majority of government projects are being produced by private contractors, I find it hard to buy into the socialism definition. If anything, the government is a market consumer of goods and services.

The government doesn't own farms or factories, it doesn't produce any general consumer good. They provide services, but that's every government. Defense, roads, postal service, etc.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by Defiant »

Defiant wrote:It's Obama's MMO. Concede something prior to negotiations, and then concede something during negotiations.
More evidence:
These results seem to suggest that Mr. Obama left something on the table. That is, Mr. Obama could have shifted the deal tangibly toward the left and still gotten a bill through without too much of a problem. For instance, even if all members of the Tea Party Caucus had voted against the bill, it would still have passed 237-to-193, and that’s with 95 Democrats voting against it.

Specifically, it seems likely that Mr. Obama could have gotten an extension of the payroll tax cut included in the bill, or unemployment benefits, either of which would have had a stimulative effect. Some Republicans would have complained that the new deal expanded rather than contracted the deficit in 2012, and Mr. Obama would have lost some of their votes. But this stimulus spending wouldn’t have overtly violated their highest-priority goals (no new taxes, and a dollar in spending cuts for every dollar in borrowing authority). And Mr. Obama, evidently, had a few Republican votes he could afford to lose.
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.co ... the-table/" target="_blank
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by noxiousdog »

LawBeefaroni wrote:Ok, back to: Is NASA socialist, yes or no?

I say that Hubble is seeking out viable firing positions in the Eagle Nebula. Once we figure out how to deliver ordnance across 7,000ly in a dozen lifetimes or less, China is toast.
It's not socialist. It's despotic. It's not our space program; it's the governments. I can get a ride on Amtrak, but not on the space shuttle.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by SpaceLord »

Kraken wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:Ok, back to: Is NASA socialist, yes or no?
When people pool their talent and money to accomplish a goal that none can do individually, without expecting to profit, is that socialism? Or is it only socialism when they use other people's money?
If the government does it, hell yes it's socialist.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by Defiant »

noxiousdog wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:Ok, back to: Is NASA socialist, yes or no?

I say that Hubble is seeking out viable firing positions in the Eagle Nebula. Once we figure out how to deliver ordnance across 7,000ly in a dozen lifetimes or less, China is toast.
It's not socialist. It's despotic. It's not our space program; it's the governments. I can get a ride on Amtrak, but not on the space shuttle.
Yes you can, though not right now.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by GreenGoo »

Isgrimnur wrote:See, it all depends on how you define it. The oldest definition refers to the means of production being publicly owned. Given that the vast majority of government projects are being produced by private contractors, I find it hard to buy into the socialism definition. If anything, the government is a market consumer of goods and services.

The government doesn't own farms or factories, it doesn't produce any general consumer good. They provide services, but that's every government. Defense, roads, postal service, etc.
If this is the definition, then medicare doesn't fit under the socialism moniker either.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by LawBeefaroni »

noxiousdog wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:Ok, back to: Is NASA socialist, yes or no?

I say that Hubble is seeking out viable firing positions in the Eagle Nebula. Once we figure out how to deliver ordnance across 7,000ly in a dozen lifetimes or less, China is toast.
It's not socialist. It's despotic. It's not our space program; it's the governments. I can get a ride on Amtrak, but not on the space shuttle.
I agree in some ways, but Amtrak has not inspired multiple generations of Americans to lead the world in science and technology. NASA has.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by Isgrimnur »

GreenGoo wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote:See, it all depends on how you define it. The oldest definition refers to the means of production being publicly owned. Given that the vast majority of government projects are being produced by private contractors, I find it hard to buy into the socialism definition. If anything, the government is a market consumer of goods and services.

The government doesn't own farms or factories, it doesn't produce any general consumer good. They provide services, but that's every government. Defense, roads, postal service, etc.
If this is the definition, then medicare doesn't fit under the socialism moniker either.
Medicare may not, but your state/county/city/provincial hospitals certainly are.

A government-supplied social safety net is not socialism. There's no production being done. There's no private industry being competed with or pushed out of the market. From an economic standpoint, government taxation (and therefore, spending) may crowd out private investment and private charitable donations by reducing disposable income, that's not a socialist qualification.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by Defiant »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:Ok, back to: Is NASA socialist, yes or no?

I say that Hubble is seeking out viable firing positions in the Eagle Nebula. Once we figure out how to deliver ordnance across 7,000ly in a dozen lifetimes or less, China is toast.
It's not socialist. It's despotic. It's not our space program; it's the governments. I can get a ride on Amtrak, but not on the space shuttle.
I agree in some ways, but Amtrak has not inspired multiple generations of Americans to lead the world in science and technology. NASA has.
And has also given us advancements in technology
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by noxiousdog »

LawBeefaroni wrote: I agree in some ways, but Amtrak has not inspired multiple generations of Americans to lead the world in science and technology. NASA has.
Ok, but that doesn't make it socialist.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by LawBeefaroni »

noxiousdog wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote: I agree in some ways, but Amtrak has not inspired multiple generations of Americans to lead the world in science and technology. NASA has.
Ok, but that doesn't make it socialist.
But I think it makes it less despotic.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by Defiant »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote: I agree in some ways, but Amtrak has not inspired multiple generations of Americans to lead the world in science and technology. NASA has.
Ok, but that doesn't make it socialist.
But I think it makes it less despotic.
What you call "inspired" could also be called "propaganda" :wink:
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by noxiousdog »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote: I agree in some ways, but Amtrak has not inspired multiple generations of Americans to lead the world in science and technology. NASA has.
Ok, but that doesn't make it socialist.
But I think it makes it less despotic.
Why? The military is despotic.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by Defiant »

noxiousdog wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote: I agree in some ways, but Amtrak has not inspired multiple generations of Americans to lead the world in science and technology. NASA has.
Ok, but that doesn't make it socialist.
But I think it makes it less despotic.
Why? The military is despotic.
Wouldn't things like the national guard, Posse Comitatus, etc., make it less despotic?
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by LawBeefaroni »

noxiousdog wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote: I agree in some ways, but Amtrak has not inspired multiple generations of Americans to lead the world in science and technology. NASA has.
Ok, but that doesn't make it socialist.
But I think it makes it less despotic.
Why? The military is despotic.
Well the US military is sworn to protect the Constitution, not the President. But you knew that so you must agree that the US is an oligarchy?

We may be getting somewhere... :P
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by Defiant »

Defiant wrote:It's Obama's MMO. Concede something prior to negotiations, and then concede something during negotiations.

And yet another example:
President Barack Obama unexpectedly asked the Environmental Protection Agency on Friday to withdraw a plan to limit smog pollution, handing a big win to business and Republicans who have argued the initiative was a job killer in uncertain times.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... 8228.story" target="_blank
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by Kraken »

Defiant wrote:
Defiant wrote:It's Obama's MMO. Concede something prior to negotiations, and then concede something during negotiations.

And yet another example:
President Barack Obama unexpectedly asked the Environmental Protection Agency on Friday to withdraw a plan to limit smog pollution, handing a big win to business and Republicans who have argued the initiative was a job killer in uncertain times.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... 8228.story" target="_blank
Endorsing that new oil pipeline was another big slap at environmentalists.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by silverjon »

Kraken wrote:Endorsing that new oil pipeline was another big slap at environmentalists.
The whole idea of Keystone XL being in the news now weirds me out. TransCanada has been working on getting their licensing in place since at least 2008, so it's fait accompli in my frame of reference.
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by Pyperkub »

Defiant wrote:
Defiant wrote:It's Obama's MMO. Concede something prior to negotiations, and then concede something during negotiations.

And yet another example:
President Barack Obama unexpectedly asked the Environmental Protection Agency on Friday to withdraw a plan to limit smog pollution, handing a big win to business and Republicans who have argued the initiative was a job killer in uncertain times.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... 8228.story" target="_blank
Every dollar spent by those businesses investing in upgrading their decades old infrastructure is another dollar spent on jobs in the US. This "it will cost money" doesn't look at any of the benefits, and is such a strawman argument.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by Isgrimnur »

Pretty much. If it doesn't create jobs directly in the industry that it's supposed to impact, it's a "job killer". Never mind that there are places that have to hire people to ramp up production to produce the new equipment required...
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by Enough »

geezer wrote:
msduncan wrote:
SpaceLord wrote:As I said earlier, the comments in the current NASA thread, even from 'conservatives,' illustrate that the cries of 'But Socialism!' are way, way overblown. If you support government be involved in anything like, I dunno, space exploration...they you're supporting something socialist.
That is simply not true. I've always viewed NASA and the government space exploration program as military or at least pseudo-military.

I've always said that space is the ultimate 'high-ground'. We need to take it as such...and science benefits as a positive side-effect. National pride also is a factor.
It's a reasonable argument for the necessity of space research. But it's utterly irrelevant to the fact that you clearly pick and chose what's "socilaist" (bad) or "not socialist" (good) based upon your personal beliefs regarding what the government should pay for. I'd love to see your reaction to the scope of DARPA grants that are, on one hand, quasi-military (or overtly military), but on the other are rife with the kind of basic science studies that seem to appear ludicrous on the surface and always get highlighted as examples of "government waste" by people who wouldn't know a lab coat from a lab rat.
Where's that applause emoticon?
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by Enough »

Pyperkub wrote:
Defiant wrote:
Defiant wrote:It's Obama's MMO. Concede something prior to negotiations, and then concede something during negotiations.

And yet another example:
President Barack Obama unexpectedly asked the Environmental Protection Agency on Friday to withdraw a plan to limit smog pollution, handing a big win to business and Republicans who have argued the initiative was a job killer in uncertain times.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... 8228.story" target="_blank
Every dollar spent by those businesses investing in upgrading their decades old infrastructure is another dollar spent on jobs in the US. This "it will cost money" doesn't look at any of the benefits, and is such a strawman argument.
Obama has done nothing but fold like a house of cards again and again. The pipeline push and his lack of defense of the still incredibly valuable EPA is really starting to piss me off. But yeah, he's a socialist monster that is the most liberal POTUS ever. :roll:
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noxiousdog
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Re: Not a Socialist

Post by noxiousdog »

Isgrimnur wrote:Pretty much. If it doesn't create jobs directly in the industry that it's supposed to impact, it's a "job killer". Never mind that there are places that have to hire people to ramp up production to produce the new equipment required...
I'm curious why you think it's a 1:1 relationship.
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Isgrimnur
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Not a Socialist

Post by Isgrimnur »

I'm not suggesting that there's an equivalency. I'm stating that I never see research indicating what the total jobs created would be for comparison.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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