A question for our European friends

Tareeq · Post by **Tareeq** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:09 am

What do you make of your new constitution being signed this Friday?

And what will it make of you?

Napoleon · Post by **Napoleon** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:22 am

I don't make of it much, to be honest. I haven't seen a full text of it yet. From what I have read, so far it seems little more than a combining of the treaties we already have into one larger treaty that gets the status of a constitution.

I'm ashamed to say that even though what happens at the European level has gotten to be MUCH more important than what happens on the national level (70% of all new dutch legislation is a translation or implementation of an EU rule into the national system...and then I'm not even counting the EU rules that apply directly to our national system) the media exposure towards it is astonishingly small. And hell, that even goes for the three legal journals I have a subscription to.

It's a bad thing, but one I don't see changing anytime soon. Number one cause for that, I think, is the rather limited power of the European Parliament (which is the only DIRECTLY elected democratic representative within the EU). If they would have more power, and a better way of presenting themselves to the people of Europe, that'd be a huge improvement.

I'll try and read the text of the new constitution this weekend or so, so I can give you an informed opinion

Poleaxe · Post by **Poleaxe** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:24 am

Bump, because I think this could be an interesting thread.

Napoleon · Post by **Napoleon** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:34 am

Oh what I forgot...the new constitution won't "work" right away. It will need to be ratified by ALL the participating countries, some of whom will hold a referendum to determine whether or not it will be ratified.

Holland will also hold a referendum to determine whether or not we will ratify the constitution. I'm not quite sure what happens if one country would decide NOT to ratify the constitution.

The site for the dutch government states that they believe all countries will have ratified the new constitution before January 1st 2006, which I believe is an INSANELY optimistic date. In other words, ain't gonna happen

[Edit. And the thoughts keep on coming

The full text is not yet available, but should be available as of tomorrow (which is logical...I mean, what would they sign

). Main goal of the constitution is indeed to combine all the different treaties, to make european law more transparent, efficient and more readable (and my god, does it ever need that...european law is a huge jumble of different rules). It also has some new stuff, mainly concerned with trying to make the EU more democratic...the European Parliament will get more powers, for example. Also, we'll be getting an EU Secretary of State.

Finally, there will indeed be a section for human rights. These, naturally, already existed within the EU, but the courts so far used external sources (other treaties) to reference them. I don't think including them in the constitution will change much with regards to the legal power of these rights, although it might make them more clear and easily accessible for non-laywers.

As for your second question, Tareeq, I think you want to know whether this constitution makes me feel an EU citizen instead of a Dutch citizen? Because that, it doesn't. Even though I fully notice the huge impact of the EU because I'm a law student, I still feel like a Dutch citizen. Maybe this is why I've always been more easily able to accept international rules and treaties as binding for my country than I've seen some of the Americans on these forums. Anyway, with me feeling Dutch, even with my exposure to European Law, I can almost assure you that most people in Europe will definitely NOT feel like an EU citizen instead of a citizen of their own country.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:57 am

As for your second question, Tareeq, I think you want to know whether this constitution makes me feel an EU citizen instead of a Dutch citizen? Because that, it doesn't. Even though I fully notice the huge impact of the EU because I'm a law student, I still feel like a Dutch citizen. Maybe this is why I've always been more easily able to accept international rules and treaties as binding for my country than I've seen some of the Americans on these forums. Anyway, with me feeling Dutch, even with my exposure to European Law, I can almost assure you that most people in Europe will definitely NOT feel like an EU citizen instead of a citizen of their own country.

It's interesting to watch it grow at least. I wonder if it will develop in a similar fashion to the way the states developed. If you will start out as a very loose confederation and then through the course of time get pulled into a single entity. I would think that language would prevent that, but Europeans as rule, seem to speak at least 3 languages and the them all together pretty well.

The EU has been interesting to watch to say the least. If nothing else, for the economic change of tide that it has brought.

Napoleon · Post by **Napoleon** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:35 am

LordMortis wrote:
As for your second question, Tareeq, I think you want to know whether this constitution makes me feel an EU citizen instead of a Dutch citizen? Because that, it doesn't. Even though I fully notice the huge impact of the EU because I'm a law student, I still feel like a Dutch citizen. Maybe this is why I've always been more easily able to accept international rules and treaties as binding for my country than I've seen some of the Americans on these forums. Anyway, with me feeling Dutch, even with my exposure to European Law, I can almost assure you that most people in Europe will definitely NOT feel like an EU citizen instead of a citizen of their own country.
It's interesting to watch it grow at least. I wonder if it will develop in a similar fashion to the way the states developed. If you will start out as a very loose confederation and then through the course of time get pulled into a single entity. I would think that language would prevent that, but Europeans as rule, seem to speak at least 3 languages and the them all together pretty well.

The EU has been interesting to watch to say the least. If nothing else, for the economic change of tide that it has brought.

I don't think just language will prevent that, but also cultural differences. Sure, there's no doubt that we as european countries need to stand together to be able to compete in the world, but that's not to say that we like each other so much that we want to become one. I think France, England and Germany are way too proud for that at least

The Meal · Post by **The Meal** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:43 am

Totally agreed with Nap about the role the various cultures will play and the centuries of history the Europeans can point to and bolster their pride. Maybe *generations* from now the EU will become more homogenized, but it certainly won't happen in my lifetime.

Remember the US population is still gradually moving westward. We (still) haven't achieved geographic equilibrium, and so the relocating population only helps to achieve our homogenuity. If the EU managed to find itself a Jim Morrison to sing that The West is The Best maybe things could be sped up a bit.

~Neal

Mr. Sparkle · Post by **Mr. Sparkle** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:45 am

Napoleon wrote: As for your second question, Tareeq, I think you want to know whether this constitution makes me feel an EU citizen instead of a Dutch citizen? Because that, it doesn't. Even though I fully notice the huge impact of the EU because I'm a law student, I still feel like a Dutch citizen. Maybe this is why I've always been more easily able to accept international rules and treaties as binding for my country than I've seen some of the Americans on these forums. Anyway, with me feeling Dutch, even with my exposure to European Law, I can almost assure you that most people in Europe will definitely NOT feel like an EU citizen instead of a citizen of their own country.

Give it time. Soon the oppressive weight of governance will pervade your soul.

Seriously though, my ancestors thought of them selves as Marylanders or Southerners (I grew up in Maryland)... that is much less true today, I think.

Globalization yada yada yada... you may continue to think of yourself as primarily a Dutch citizen, but perhaps your kids will think of themselves as Europeans who happen to be Dutch.

elborto · Post by **elborto** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:47 am

The Meal wrote:If the EU managed to find itself a Jim Morrison to sing that The West is The Best maybe things could be sped up a bit.

I don't know. Portugal isn't THAT great.

Claas

Mr. Sparkle · Post by **Mr. Sparkle** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:51 am

elborto wrote:
The Meal wrote:If the EU managed to find itself a Jim Morrison to sing that The West is The Best maybe things could be sped up a bit.
I don't know. Portugal isn't THAT great.

Claas

They are rockin' in Europa Universalis though... if they would have let me run things for several hundred years, we would have totally pwned the Brits and the Spaniards.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:57 am

If the EU managed to find itself a Jim Morrison to sing that The West is The Best maybe things could be sped up a bit.

Didn't Morrison "borrow" a lot of that "west is the best" stuff Bertol Brecht(?) in an attempt to be more literate? Even that "west is the best" line came from "The End" which was inspired by Conrad...both Europeans....or am I totally talking out of my ass?

Napoleon · Post by **Napoleon** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:57 am

Mr. Sparkle wrote:
Napoleon wrote: As for your second question, Tareeq, I think you want to know whether this constitution makes me feel an EU citizen instead of a Dutch citizen? Because that, it doesn't. Even though I fully notice the huge impact of the EU because I'm a law student, I still feel like a Dutch citizen. Maybe this is why I've always been more easily able to accept international rules and treaties as binding for my country than I've seen some of the Americans on these forums. Anyway, with me feeling Dutch, even with my exposure to European Law, I can almost assure you that most people in Europe will definitely NOT feel like an EU citizen instead of a citizen of their own country.
Give it time. Soon the oppressive weight of governance will pervade your soul.

Seriously though, my ancestors thought of them selves as Marylanders or Southerners (I grew up in Maryland)... that is much less true today, I think.

Globalization yada yada yada... you may continue to think of yourself as primarily a Dutch citizen, but perhaps your kids will think of themselves as Europeans who happen to be Dutch.

Well, yeah. But now we're talking 120 years ago, not your mom and dad. Of course, once we reach for the stars, all this country nonsense will end and we will all think of ourselves as Earthians, right?

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:05 am

That's earthanoid to you buddy.

Mr. Sparkle · Post by **Mr. Sparkle** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:20 am

Napoleon wrote:
Mr. Sparkle wrote:
Napoleon wrote: As for your second question, Tareeq, I think you want to know whether this constitution makes me feel an EU citizen instead of a Dutch citizen? Because that, it doesn't. Even though I fully notice the huge impact of the EU because I'm a law student, I still feel like a Dutch citizen. Maybe this is why I've always been more easily able to accept international rules and treaties as binding for my country than I've seen some of the Americans on these forums. Anyway, with me feeling Dutch, even with my exposure to European Law, I can almost assure you that most people in Europe will definitely NOT feel like an EU citizen instead of a citizen of their own country.
Give it time. Soon the oppressive weight of governance will pervade your soul.

Seriously though, my ancestors thought of them selves as Marylanders or Southerners (I grew up in Maryland)... that is much less true today, I think.

Globalization yada yada yada... you may continue to think of yourself as primarily a Dutch citizen, but perhaps your kids will think of themselves as Europeans who happen to be Dutch.
Well, yeah. But now we're talking 120 years ago, not your mom and dad. Of course, once we reach for the stars, all this country nonsense will end and we will all think of ourselves as Earthians, right?

You are ignoring the power of TEH INTERNET(S)

Not to be "hand wavy", but modern communications tend to push us towards globalization. Much faster than the Pony Express, anyway.

Sherpa · Post by **Sherpa** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:17 pm

elborto wrote:
The Meal wrote:If the EU managed to find itself a Jim Morrison to sing that The West is The Best maybe things could be sped up a bit.
I don't know. Portugal isn't THAT great.

Claas

hmmm... I seem to remember the beaches were fairly nice -- the ones where the women took advantage of the tops-are-optional mindset at least

Napoleon · Post by **Napoleon** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:06 pm

Definitely not ignoring the power of the Internet. However, most of MY dealings on the internet are with Americans, so I'd much faster feel connected with the USA than with the rest of Europe, right? Man, I must shower

But joking aside...I don't think the internet will have THAT much of an impact on cultural differences. We're not talking about hanging out with other people and chatting with them here, we're talking about accepting an entirely different governmental "structure" above you, instead of the country you were born and raised in.

It will probably go faster than in the past, I'll give you that. But my children will still feel like Dutch citizens. (And if they don't, I'll damn well slap it into them!

)

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:06 pm

Spock's Brain · Post by **Spock's Brain** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:05 am

Golden Bull or Golden Bull?

D'Arcy · Post by **D'Arcy** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:36 am

The EU constitution seems to have been drafted primarily by Freemasons, feminists and neo-liberal capitalists. By Freemasons I mean people who say that God did not make himself known through revelation conclusively and that therefore many so-called religions exist and the veracity of their respective propositions cannot be known to man. By feminists I mean people who say that our sex is not part of our nature ontologically and substantially, but that there are so-called genders applied to generic human beings as an additional attribute, and that therefore a man is not different from a woman according to the substance. By capitalists I mean people who say that markets tend towards the common good naturally and by themselves, that economic actors therefore should not be restrained through the state, that the primary purpose of man is to be productive economically, and that taking interest is a just form of profit.
The enshrinement of such false ideologies will promote a totalitarian democracy that will be detrimental to the well-being of society. Now the document isn't supposed to supercede and replace the national constitutions, but rather exist with them simultaneously. But how is that supposed to work practically in points of conflict?
The same forces that seek to impose this constitution are causing disruption right now by refusing Rocco Buttiglioneas a new Commission member because he is "too catholic". They also urged Turkey,as a pre-requirement for membership talks, to drop a bill that would have outlawed adultery. I conclude that one needs to welcome homosexual and adulterous acts in order to be a "good European".
The document begins with the words "His majesty, the King of the Belgians, [...] drawing from the cultural, religious and humanitarian heritage of Europe ...". Compared to the inspiring preambles usually found in such important works, that's pathetic.
As far as I understand Article I-59, a sovereign state requires the consent of the European Parliament to secede from the Union. That's unacceptable.
It seems that the chaotic judicial relationship between the Union and the states has not been resolved. Case in point:

The Union has founded several courts, such as the "Court of Human Rights", for which there exists no sovereign to grant the court authority, and which rules by some "convention" they, apparently, gave themselves. They make arbitrary judgements and seek to impose their will on the Supreme Courts of the member states with no justification.

Recently, they decided that a journalist must not be allowed to take a photo of Princess Caroline of Monaco in her leisure time. Now the Supreme Court of Germany has held the contrary. Whose word counts? As it stands, the judgement from the Court of Human Rights isn't really binding for anyone, but it should be somehow "honoured" and "incorporated", and when the national judges refuse to sell themselves out like that, the federal government is supposed to intervene and try to enforce the sentence of the Union court. Such a system appears to be dysfunctional and disastrous for trust into justice.

Apart from that, the document probably contains a few interesting impulses. But since I won't be asked whether I agree with its implementation anyway, I don't particularly care.

elborto · Post by **elborto** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:36 am

Is it me, or did you sort that list in the order of most-crazy to least-crazy?

Claas