OOWW: JLA ... GAME OVER!

[Mr Bubbles]

I hope you don't hear me defending tru1cy. I just think we let Lagom specifically off too easy. Well I guess the same could be said about Grund. Grund has raise my ire, because he is taking a more directed roll in the direction of lynches that I am used to. Lagom is a dangerous player and I wasn't ok with just removing the votes. I'd love to press him more.

[Austin]

In fairness, when I was evil in past games (OMG he's practically admitting to being evil in THIS game!) I would try to garner much attention straight away so I could be voted up to nx and then backed off of. This allowed a sort of a slightly more innocent and fresh feeling amongst my prey.

The point though, is not that we should just go ahead and lynch our Heroes, rather that we must put these claimants solidly back into the suspicion pool by the appropriate day.

[bb2112]

The point though, is not that we should just go ahead and lynch our Heroes, rather that we must put these claimants solidly back into the suspicion pool by the appropriate day.

But the question is, what is appropriate today? Should LL and Grund flat out state their roles per the current rule set?

[purge]

My point is that unless we out EVERYONE, TODAY, WHICH BREAKS CR's GAME (though it is a different beast and may well play better since everyone is random), outing two specials may not work.

Consider Atom, who's power is self-protection while not outed / proven.
Or Hawkman/woman, who are tied together and would be a BIG loss.
Then there is the whispering fellow who dies and his chat-ee also dies. Who would want to urge him to talk to them, when that urge would be put out in the open and likely to get them killed (as what normal would urge that special to speak with them??).

I will go through the good roles later tonight with analysis as I did with the villains. Back to work.

[Unagi]

First, this is a game with a ton of hero roles that people could be.
Second, this is a game where not all of them are in it, and there are even villains that can actually SCAN as a hero.

All that needs to be considered.


So.... what is the day where you no longer accept “that is not a good idea, the whole killing me thing, that's really not wise".

When do we force that player to say exactly why....

In many ways - Day 1 is NOT the right day. It's tempting to force a player to make his exact claim - but they may indeed be gobbled up at night and you'd be down a Special.

The Wolves KNOW if a player is really a special or is really one of them... so this is not a way for a Special to be 'kept safe' (by not asking them their exact role). However -in a game with this many special, etc - it is tempting for the Good Guys to let an Exposed Super Special Special pretend he may be a Second Tier Special for that first night - and not come out and "make that claim" right away, giving him perhaps more of a chance to survive.

Day 2, Day 3 - as the days go on, clearly people are not let off the hook, as more and more players are in the grave.

Once you pass into the realm of 'a whole lot of people have been killed at night (or by Tru1cy, before they can make a claim) – we will not take a Claimed Special at face value.

Remus is right to point out that we are actually perhaps very lucky right now (with an asterisk on that 'perhaps') in that we don't have any Unknown Deaths. And we have 2 players that have (1, certainly) made unspecific claims of being a Special.

And - you know - I actually am convincing myself that it's the right way to proceed here.

Progress, and all that (right, Grund?)

[Unagi]

we must put these claimants solidly back into the suspicion pool by the appropriate day.

But the question is, what is appropriate today?

It's either now, while we know that there isn't a clear Special Role to spoof.

Or, it's an ever-open question, where 'pressing them' has less and less meaning as the days and corpses pile up.

[purge]

So it's a mass outing then?

Keep in mind, Clayface spoofs roles regardless of death. Also, since we don't know who IS in the game (seer, hunter, etc), one could spoof a role and have it go uncontested.

[Remus West]

So it's a mass outing then?

Keep in mind, Clayface spoofs roles regardless of death. Also, since we don't know who IS in the game (seer, hunter, etc), one could spoof a role and have it go uncontested.

Why do you keep trying to make this a mass outing? We are talking about the two players that have claimed "powered" without claiming a role. Those are the two that have set themselves up to be able to spoof a role later if they feel the need. Those are the two that need to make their claim clear today.

[tru1cy]

Anyone get the feeling that the LoD is somehow being very vocal


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lassr]

caught up and here is my thoughts...

there is pros and cons to both sides but I think I agree with Remus.

if they reveal and they are heroes with non seer powers the villains have a choice of whittling down the knowns and letting the possible seer continue to scan. If they reveal as a seer we can hope to get one night protection and another scan before they die. They could not be spoofed though because we would know they were a seer. I think 1 more scan and knowing there will not be a fake seer playing us is more important than staying hidden, dying at night and we not knowing what they were.

If they are indeed powered then the bad guys will be finding out what they are somehow. Scanning or killing, and then we are left in the dark.

 withdraw theohall 
 

[Unagi]

 Diet Lagom 
 

[bb2112]

Not agreeing, or disagreeing yet, but has anyone given thought to:

What if Grund came out and claimed Green Arrow. He is our only shooter and Green Lantern is not in the game. Evil kills Grund tonight and converts Trig tomorrow.

I just want to make sure this is thought out...

[Lassr]

Not agreeing, or disagreeing yet, but has anyone given thought to:

What if Grund came out and claimed Green Arrow. He is our only shooter and Green Lantern is not in the game. Evil kills Grund tonight and converts Trig tomorrow.

I just want to make sure this is thought out...

Yes, I thought about it and that would be one of the cons...but playing the odds makes the reveal a wiser choice. It's a gamble but so is going into tomorrow blind.

[Chaosraven]

VOTE


3 Isgrimnur - RMC, El Guapo, coopasonic



2 bb2112 - Lagom Lite, theohall
2 Unagi - tru1cy, Mr Bubbles
2 Lagom Lite - Remus West, Unagi
2 theohall - bb2112, Austin



1 Mr Bubbles - triggercut
1 purge - Isgrimnur


No Vote: purge, Grundbegriff, Lassr



16 Players remain, Majority is 9

[tru1cy]

 withdraw unagi 
 

[RMC]

Not agreeing, or disagreeing yet, but has anyone given thought to:

What if Grund came out and claimed Green Arrow. He is our only shooter and Green Lantern is not in the game. Evil kills Grund tonight and converts Trig tomorrow.

I just want to make sure this is thought out...

Yes, I thought about it and that would be one of the cons...but playing the odds makes the reveal a wiser choice. It's a gamble but so is going into tomorrow blind.

Wow... After reading everything, I have to think that it is better to have these two reveal. If they are allowed to be 'proven' without providing any proof, or adding any value, it allows the possibility of team evil using that tactic to hide in plain sight.

There are so many variables of things that could happen, but we have very little information to go on. I think any information that we can get and verify helps us.

I am also worried about the no kill on the first night. If it was not a conversion, and Team evil did try to kill one of our possible self protected, or protected people, did they go after Q, because he was the first night target and was protected and it just happened to also be one of the 'proven' we had?

Or did they convert on night one? I guess this has all been hashed out prior to me saying any of this. I am just saying the more information Team Good has, the better we can start making decisions.

I feel like we are talking ourselves in circles, and I think some of that starts with our 'proven' letting us know what role they have to allow us to make decisions.

 withdraw Isgrimnur 
 


No sense having a vote on someone until I have more information to go on.

[Unagi]

 withdraw unagi 
 

Well, ya left it there for nearly an entire week.


What did you see to make you change your vote ??

[purge]

Glanced over the rules of the heroes, and noticed that it's Martian Manhunter who would die (as would his contact).

If Grund were him, or connected to him, his being killed would kill two people.

CR- Can Martian Manhunter link with a villain, and if so, would it be the same result: eg: Grund as MMH links to Bubbles (Joker), and joker is lynched, boom goes the dynamite on tru1cy, would Grund also die?

Perhaps Grund is Hawkwoman, and he's gauging interest by his known partner (for example). He could be Atom Man, or he could be Elongated man, baiting the villains to kill him instead of someone else. Hell, EMan may be the reason for the Day1 miss.

I am not opposed to them hinting at role so that it reduces the spoofing, (seer, non-seer, protector, etc), but honestly, two of the villain roles have some sort of built-in countermeasure. Twoface will always scan human, Clayface knows who ISN'T evil, and will be undetectable. Harley could be hidden in prior scan targets, and WW can't rescan anyone.

[b]The one thing I cannot stress enough is: IF HAWKMAN/WOMAN, or GREEN ARROW decide to shoot someone, please give the entire group a chance to chime in on the selection, and give a several hour warning before taking the shot.[b]

I don't know if we have Green Lantern or not, but with both Croc and Joker in the mix, it behooves us to give our team a fighting chance at saving lives and not wasting powers.

The writeup on each role is still coming... thought about this stuff while at the gym.

Also, there was this 6'2" brunette with an AMAZING body. I still cannot get her out of my mind - not that I'm trying very hard.

[bb2112]

What did you see to make you change your vote ??

He is hoping we vote someone up to N-1 again so he can be free to drop the hammer.

[purge]

The one thing I cannot stress enough is: IF HAWKMAN/WOMAN, or GREEN ARROW decide to shoot someone, please give the entire group a chance to chime in on the selection, and give a several hour warning before taking the shot.

I don't know if we have Green Lantern or not, but with both Croc and Joker in the mix, it behooves us to give our team a fighting chance at saving lives and not wasting powers.

Re-quoted because I f***ed up on the bold tags.

[Grundbegriff]

Survival is hard in these games. Sometimes that doesn't matter, and sometimes it does.
I had hoped that subtlety would be met with subtlety. I've given so many indications of my specific claim already.
Whoso list to hunt, I know where is an hinde....

If it is indeed the will of the counsel, then yadda yadda. But I can't help thinking that Remus's "Y'all just out yourselves so Evil won't have to do anything at all by way of scanning" gambit is quite a template for Evil to follow, whether in this game or in future ones.

[theohall]

Color me confused.

I see posts where someone says they should out themselves, yet in the same posts are reasons for specific powered individuals to clearly NOT out themselves. So... WTF????

[Grundbegriff]

Color me confused.

I see posts where someone says they should out themselves, yet in the same posts are reasons for specific powered individuals to clearly NOT out themselves. So... WTF????

Remus is just frustrated by the confusion of 2sday.

[triggercut]

This is not working out particularly well at all. I much preferred our powered heroes to remain semi-anonymous. We're almost telling Team Evil how we're going to play things for the next few turns if we keep going.

[Grundbegriff]

This is not working out particularly well at all. I much preferred our powered heroes to remain semi-anonymous. We're almost telling Team Evil how we're going to play things for the next few turns if we keep going.

That's apparently what Remus wants to do, since he regards the risk of emulation as so high that it's worth as much outing as necessary to avoid it.

[triggercut]

At any rate, I now feel reasonably confident that on Sunday night, Wonder Woman compelled (and protected) the same person who Team Evil targeted for death.

[Unagi]

Wow

[Unagi]

That just seems really specific. And you are reasonably confident.

[triggercut]

That just seems really specific. And you are reasonably confident.

1. No kill on Sunday night. Why?

To which follows:
a.) they did a blind kill or conversion attempt

OR

b.) they got blocked

Agreed?

If so, then:

2. Scenario one: If the lack of a kill on Sunday night was the result of a conversion, we know that the conversion was "blind"; that is, they chose a player to convert, and not a specific role. Why?

a.) Is the player more important than the role?
b.) knowing what we now know about the importance of a Harley-ized Superman, or perhaps Wonder Woman or perhaps Green Arrow, wouldn't the answer seem to be to wait for some intel before choosing a conversion target?

2a. Scenario two: a kill attempt was blocked on Sunday night. How or why?

a.) They targeted a player who was protected by Flash (if present)

OR

b.) They targeted a player who was compelled/protected by Wonder Woman (if present)

Under scenario 2a, it seems to me likely that both Wonder Woman (if present) and Team Evil considered the same player to be a target of value on Sunday night. It is also possible that perhaps Flash protected that target instead. My initial thoughts go to the possible presence of Wonder Woman insofar as her protection comes as the result of curiosity as to a player's role, which to my mind more closely duplicates the motive of Team Evil.

[Grundbegriff]

I'm still bugged by this:

I mocked the wording to intentionally highlight that he was suggesting he has an important ability.

Why would you do that, if you're good?

Even more, I'm still bugged by this:

If Isgrimnur were good and Isgrimnur were at N-2 and "A bunch of bad guys were not on the Isgrimnur train", then why is Isgrimnur alive?

Edit: formatting the quotes

[bb2112]

Trig, why a block? Why not EM or Atom? The villains have no idea why their attack failed, so it could have been any of the above, yet you only consider WW or Flash?

[triggercut]

Trig, why a block? Why not EM or Atom? The villains have no idea why their attack failed, so it could have been any of the above, yet you only consider WW or Flash?

Uh....because I wasn't too clear on their roles?

You raise a good point. Both of those are not only possible, but also--simply by requiring fewer moving parts--more probable than a block.

Back to the drawing board.

[triggercut]

Even more, I'm still bugged by this:

If Isgrimnur were good and Isgrimnur were at N-2 and "A bunch of bad guys were not on the Isgrimnur train", then why is Isgrimnur alive?

Edit: formatting the quotes

This interested me enough to look 'er up.

I plopped an accusation on Isgrimnur without giving reason on realtime Thursday morning, 3/22. I knew why I put it down there, and was waiting to see if anyone else jumped in. No one did.

Friday morning, Unagi pointed out Grim's absence. I then specified that it had been 9 days at that point. I refer now to Page 17 of this thread.

In about fifteen minutes, in order, Lassr, RMC, and bb2112 jumped onto the vote, taking it to 4 votes. Timestamps 8:57 (Lassr), 9:11 (RMC), 9:15 (bb2112).

An hour and fifteen minutes after that, Mr Bubbles places his vote to take us to 5, at 10:32.

At 2:05 pm, El Guapo takes him to 6 votes.

At 2:17 Unagi puts him at N-2, and then so notes it.

Premise: if Isgrimnur is a wolf, those who have voted for him are innocents and can be cleared.

Premise: if Isgrimnur is NOT a wolf, there are likely to be wolves in the vote on him. Of the voting behavior described above, RMC, bb2112, and Unagi seem like the least wolfish. Lassr, Mr Bubbles, and El Guapo the most wolflike.

(I will state that I have my reasons for voting for Mr Bubbles, only partially based on this.)

Premise Corollary: if Isgrimnur is NOT a wolf, those who voted for him may claim "clearance" to have done so as members of Team Hero by claiming harm caused by lack of participation.

Thoughts?

[theohall]

So are you suggesting we go ahead and off Isgrimnur to look for wolves?

If so, it is probably a better plan than forcing Heroes to name themselves when the very act of naming themselves borks their powers.

[triggercut]

Does the vote order hold currency for anyone else?

With that, I mean: does anyone else think: "If I were evil and trying to hide myself in a train while moving it forward, where's the ideal position for my vote?"

Would a member of team evil think of the dual roles of voting in a train to be both hiding and acting as a catalyst to getting a goodguy hung? Would hiding or being a catalyst take precedence?

[bb2112]

Also, I have been thinking about the reveals and the spoofing aspects of the LoD. I'm not sure I've reached a conclusion totally yet. I'm still struggling with the idea that if LL and Grund both reveal, does it really help team good. The only way we would know for sure is if they tried to spoof a role in the game is if it became counter claimed.

Remus's argument says that our best chance of counter claim is now when we are sure to have all of our specials. However, even if LL and Grund claim a role, there is no certainty that the role is in the game. So if a counter claim is not made, they still couldn't be trusted. So if they can't be trusted, how much have the good guys gained? On the flip side, we might get lucky and catch one or both in a lie.

Then there is the aspect of team evil. How much do they gain if they find Green Arrow, or Atom, or Doctor Fate, or Wonder Woman? Quite a bit.

I haven't had a whole lot of time today to think about the pros and cons on this particular issue, but I'm still struggling with it. It seems like a high risk, high reward play. I just haven't been able to rub the brain cells together enough to figure out if the risk is worth it when we are not guaranteed to nail an evil.

[bb2112]

Does the vote order hold currency for anyone else?

With that, I mean: does anyone else think: "If I were evil and trying to hide myself in a train while moving it forward, where's the ideal position for my vote?"

Would a member of team evil think of the dual roles of voting in a train to be both hiding and acting as a catalyst to getting a goodguy hung? Would hiding or being a catalyst take precedence?

I'm sorry Trig. I'm totally brain dead tonight. I will look at your Isgrimnur line of reasoning tomorrow and comment.

[Grundbegriff]

Would a member of team evil think of the dual roles of voting in a train to be both hiding and acting as a catalyst to getting a goodguy hung? Would hiding or being a catalyst take precedence?

Perhaps more to the point: would a member of team evil resist the low hanging fruit of putting him over from N-2 if he were good? If so, why?

I think I recall a game where someone teetered on the edge without dying for a while, and the reason turned out to be that all the wolves in that game were already on the train.

I'm not saying that means that all our Evils were on the Isgrimnur train, but if he's good, why couldn't they muster 2 and call the question?

Fear of being conspicuous by voting N-1 and N? To some extent, tru1cy's drophammer would give cover for that since tru1cy is apparently as close to trusted as anyone so far.

The only reason I can think of for Evil to avoid nuking him is kinship.

[Lassr]

I'm not saying that means that all our Evils were on the Isgrimnur train, but if he's good, why couldn't they muster 2 and call the question?

Fear of being conspicuous by voting N-1 and N?

Yes. I've held off on voting a good guy to the gallows a few times as a bad guy.

I'm still weighing the pros and cons of the reveal but I don't think we will reach a consensus on it anyhow.

[Chaosraven]

CR- Can Martian Manhunter link with a villain, and if so, would it be the same result: eg: Grund as MMH links to Bubbles (Joker), and joker is lynched, boom goes the dynamite on tru1cy, would Grund also die?

Martian Manhunter - Martian Manhunter has Telepathy and must contact One Other Player each Night. He may contact the same person on consecutive nights. If either Martian Manhunter or his Contact are killed by the Villains, both will die. If one is protected the protection does not extend to the other.

*MUST contact the Player
**if the actual target is Protected the attack is prevented
*** in the event the Target is unprotected, the Lasso will save the Protected Connected
**** in the event the Contact is a Villain, the Villain *WILL* die if Martian Manhunter dies

Contact is for the Night only, will make that note.