OOWW: JLA ... GAME OVER!

[Lassr]

that's fine purge, (that you have picked up on Lagom's hints) my main point is - let's hear from Lagom.

That would be helpful. If he knows he was targeted then we know Grund can't be a converted Dr. Fate so he is either Dr. Fate or lying. If lying then he is more likely to be the Joker.

[purge]

To answer your reply Remus:

Shoot Grund. I think Batman is more useful if we're wrong, but killing the riddler isn't going to help us as much as any-other-villain.

I think we should then lynch "batman" or "wonderwoman" based on Grunds death.

The way I see it:

1) If grund is bad, then batman too is bad, since WW came out when theo was "validated".
2) If bb2112 is bad, then grund will be good, and his claim on Batman is clearly "bad".

Your shot was DESIGNED to prove-protect humans, and while superman is a risk, we're dealing with at least one if not two charlatans.

Sofar, the only proven heroes will be you and superman, and either Bats / Fate, or WW.

No need to take the shot today. If Lagom validates his claim of night one protection, based on his shitting bricks over SuperHarley, Imma gonna give him the benefit today.

We've got to have more heroes than that.

If the Hawks are present, I'd rather they take their shot today. It's exactly as I had suggested earlier this morning (game time).

[Unagi]

The way I see it:

1) If grund is bad, then batman too is bad, since WW came out when theo was "validated".
2) If bb2112 is bad, then grund will be good, and his claim on Batman is clearly "bad".

You are a master sleuth I tell ya !

[coopasonic]

This post (linked in the FAQ) shows that Lagom would know if he was attacked night 1. That said, Elongated Man's ability is to be self protected a single time. There is no need for him to be coy about having been attacked because if he were he becomes equal to Normal at that point, his power expended. In fact, had he been the target, there would have been motivation to get his knowledge out there since if they attacked him again he would die and they would gain a role to fake safely.

The value was in that if the villains assumed he was protected by a protector, that he would die of no consequence, or that he was Atom man and they would leave him alone.

As it stands, he is powerless to help - and though he may well be a villain, his deep concern for Superharley at the beginning of the game (which I just re-read to find the quotes above) means he was really good at acting, or is entirely on the level.

So we need to know now we have one faker, or two.

Remus, you have a shot. Please take me off your list of considered targets at this time, and focus on the task at hand. Killing Supes might seem like a good idea - I imagine it's a lonely burden knowing you may be the only one who can stop the joker - but assuming BB is not lying, we have 2 candidates who may be carrying the unspent power of corruption in them.

Who is more important? Batman, or Dr. Fate? I suppose if one were to draw the circle wide enough, it could even be the both BB and Grund are working together to draw the heroes out. One dies, one is "proven". The only challenge is justifying the constant night-survival, so this dulls occams razor like mad.


Once again : Lagom, has your power been used?

Purge, you make a big show of how carefully you read and interpretted Lagom's posts and then you say the colored bit above. Who, exactly are the "2" candidates?

I'd say there are way more than 2. I'd say there are ~14.

[Unagi]

If the Hawks are present, I'd rather they take their shot today. It's exactly as I had suggested earlier this morning (game time).

If the Hawks are present, I would say we should:

Hawk Shoot Superman - just get that removed from the whole game
Green Arrow Grund - learn about his being Dr.Fate / TwoFace / or perhaps Joker (we wouldn't learn that)

From Grund Arrow results - either Lynch Theohall (I'd put all my money here), or bb2112.

If we are in a position to Lynch Theohall, I would say we could pocket the Riddler and actually lynch a player like Coop or Purge (or, clearly - whom ever the majority decided...)

[coopasonic]

To answer your reply Remus:

Shoot Grund. I think Batman is more useful if we're wrong, but killing the riddler isn't going to help us as much as any-other-villain.

I think we should then lynch "batman" or "wonderwoman" based on Grunds death.

(assuming no hawks or green lantern) Shooting Grund leaves converted Superman unkillable and the existence of Joker unknowable. We don't *know* Grund is Joker. Using our shot on him makes sure we don't know after his death (well unless he comes up good).

Supes needs be shot and grund hung, I can't see it any other way.

[El Guapo]

Holy crap do you people (collectively) post a lot. It's tough keeping up on this thread.

Here's my question right now, having read about half of the posts for the past couple pages. My current understanding:

(1) Theohall claims Batman
(2) bb2112 disputes Theohall's claim to batitude.
(3) Grund reveals as Dr. Fate, and backs up Theohall's claim to batitude.
(4) The consensus thus far seems to be to believe bb2112 over Grund/Theo

But here's my question. If Grund is evil (and spoofing Dr. Fate), and speaks up to back up theohall (who is then by definition also evil), isn't he throwing away two villains? Even if we believe him and presumably kill bb2112, bb would come back good and we'd then kill Grund and theo, right? Seems reckless.

Unless the play is that without someone else coming forward as Batman, Theohall would then claim that bb2112 was Two-Face?

[coopasonic]

Holy crap do you people (collectively) post a lot. It's tough keeping up on this thread.

Here's my question right now, having read about half of the posts for the past couple pages. My current understanding:

(1) Theohall claims Batman
(2) bb2112 disputes Theohall's claim to batitude.
(3) Grund reveals as Dr. Fate, and backs up Theohall's claim to batitude.
(4) The consensus thus far seems to be to believe bb2112 over Grund/Theo

But here's my question. If Grund is evil (and spoofing Dr. Fate), and speaks up to back up theohall (who is then by definition also evil), isn't he throwing away two villains? Even if we believe him and presumably kill bb2112, bb would come back good and we'd then kill Grund and theo, right? Seems reckless.

Unless the play is that without someone else coming forward as Batman, Theohall would then claim that bb2112 was Two-Face?

You got it out of order. Grund revealed before BB. BB came out to expose both Grund and theo.


Chaosraven, After week of boredom, it's a hell of game this is turning out to be.

[Unagi]

My current understanding:

(1) Theohall claims Batman
(2) bb2112 disputes Theohall's claim to batitude.
(3) Grund reveals as Dr. Fate, and backs up Theohall's claim to batitude.
(4) The consensus thus far seems to be to believe bb2112 over Grund/Theo

You didn't follow well, you are out of order.

(1) Theohall claims Batman
(2) Grund reveals as Dr. Fate, and backs up Theohall's claim to batitude.
(3) bb2112 disputes Theohall's claim to batitude, and is totally thrilled to have busted Grund in the middle of it.
(4) The consensus thus far seems to be to believe bb2112 over Grund/Theo

bb2112 had zero reason to say anything as an Evil player at that moment.

[El Guapo]

The facts were intended to be in order; I was just listing the ones relevant to my question.

[El Guapo]

Er, WEREN'T intended to be in any particular order.

[Unagi]

The facts were intended to be in order;

Well... they weren't

I was just listing the ones relevant to my question.

The order can be important, but if you knew it was out of order, then - hey - OK.

[Remus West]

Can we get some resolution on the Grund / Theohall / BB thing?

Not without killing one of them. I have not submitted my shot yet (and won't until everyone checks in and offers their thoughts on who to shoot).

I see no easy way around not shooting Superman, as much I would HATE to do that he is a game killer right now if he is converted. I would really love for you to shoot Grund, that would provide so much info but it could also mean an instant loss for us.

This is EXACTLY where I am at in my thinking.

[El Guapo]

If the Hawks are present, I'd rather they take their shot today. It's exactly as I had suggested earlier this morning (game time).

If the Hawks are present, I would say we should:

Hawk Shoot Superman - just get that removed from the whole game
Green Arrow Grund - learn about his being Dr.Fate / TwoFace / or perhaps Joker (we wouldn't learn that)

From Grund Arrow results - either Lynch Theohall (I'd put all my money here), or bb2112.

If we are in a position to Lynch Theohall, I would say we could pocket the Riddler and actually lynch a player like Coop or Purge (or, clearly - whom ever the majority decided...)

Makes sense. If the Hawks are present, the first step would be for them to come out, right? Then we can figure out how to allocate Green Arrow / Hawk shots (assuming both are available).

It feels odd to openly shoot Superman. Ideally we'd try to shoot the Joker first, but then even if we succeeded we wouldn't know that we had killed the Joker, just that we had killed a villain. I guess that leads to shooting Superman, though.

[RMC]

To answer your reply Remus:

Shoot Grund. I think Batman is more useful if we're wrong, but killing the riddler isn't going to help us as much as any-other-villain.

I think we should then lynch "batman" or "wonderwoman" based on Grunds death.

The way I see it:

1) If grund is bad, then batman too is bad, since WW came out when theo was "validated".
2) If bb2112 is bad, then grund will be good, and his claim on Batman is clearly "bad".

Your shot was DESIGNED to prove-protect humans, and while superman is a risk, we're dealing with at least one if not two charlatans.

Sofar, the only proven heroes will be you and superman, and either Bats / Fate, or WW.

No need to take the shot today. If Lagom validates his claim of night one protection, based on his shitting bricks over SuperHarley, Imma gonna give him the benefit today.

We've got to have more heroes than that.

If the Hawks are present, I'd rather they take their shot today. It's exactly as I had suggested earlier this morning (game time).

Umm... I think we have to take the shot today. If we wait, what stops the baddies from killing off Green Arrow, and then maybe converting supes later...I know we have a 'claimed' protector..But we also have a possible Joker...

And with all the heroes out there, I am going to guess that there is not too many more out there, so I would not hold your breath for the hawks being in this game...

[Remus West]

Right now I am thinking we maybe shoot triggercut and then lynch theohall. Whatever theohall dies as will tell us which of Grund/bb2112 is telling the truth while lynching either of them could yield a false negative due to Two-Face. The main issue I have with that is killing theohall makes certain that if Joker is in game we are giving him another night. Still, if theohall dies "good" then we know bb2112 is lying because Riddler has no way to appear good to us.

Since he is going to be dead I would like triggercut to dump any and all thoughts he may have before that time.

[bb2112]

Just thinking about Grunds reveal. A lot of factors kind of fell in our favor, and probably the biggest one was LL's semi-claim to 4 good guy roles.

Grund was forced into a box when he had to come forward and spoof a role. I was thinking why Dr. Fate?

Superman - Couldn't claim that, already taken by Trig

WW, Flash, EM and Atom - Could have claimed one of these roles, but also could have clashed with LL. Although, if their night one target was Lassr, and not knowing I protected him, then Lassr or LL could trip up this spoof. Better to stear clear.

Batman - Unprovable already claimed by Theo

GA, GL, WT, Hawks, CM - All can prove themselves during the day. Better to stear clear.

That leaves either MM or Dr. Fate. Both with powers only provable at night. MM could then be proved if two people came forward and said they were contacted. Grund would have to expose 2 evils on his team to confirm his contacts. Theo would be an easy one, but then he would have to expose one more to scrutiny if his ruse gets blown.

That leaves Dr. Fate. His only real choice left. Unprovable, except in death with a mindburst. High risk, high reward. He can also use the scans to clear Theo as Batman, maybe throw some Iocane wth Austin by declaring him normal, or possibly try to clear a second evil in Austin.

[Remus West]

You people do realize that Dr. Fate's mindburst only works if he is kill "at night", don't you? If I shoot him or we lynch him we get no mind burst even if Grund is telling the truth.

[Unagi]

I see no easy way around not shooting Superman, as much I would HATE to do that he is a game killer right now if he is converted. I would really love for you to shoot Grund, that would provide so much info but it could also mean an instant loss for us.

This is EXACTLY where I am at in my thinking.

Remus, You should be shooting Grund today. It's a much better use for the Arrow.

I, on the other hand, have a history with this 'superman'
You can all stop holding your breath... I am Hawkman



I'll let the little lady hawk introduce herself.

I'm pretty certain that Theohalls claim of 6 heroes was just pushed beyond a comfort zone as well.

Grund: Doctor Fake
Theohall: Badman
triggercut: The Super
tru1cy: Undeclared - but special, none the less
Remus: Green Arrow
Unagi: Hawkman
Unagi's Wife: Hawk Woman
Lagom Lite: Elongated Man
bb2112: Wonder Woman

That's 9. Not 6.

Let's toss Lagom Lite and bb2112 off the list.

Oh wait - that's still 7. Not 6.

Ouch.

So, Theohall - who are the 6 then??
Who isn't a Hero? Must be tru1cy, I guess....
Triggercut clearly is a hero.
Grund would declare that He and Theohall are heroes
But - triggercut said that tru1cy was a hero.....

Clearly - forcing Team Evil didn't help them emulate the remainder.

Har.

[coopasonic]

Holy hell, is everyone a special in this game!? From worst game ever to best game ever in 48 hours.

[bb2112]

Right now I am thinking we maybe shoot triggercut and then lynch theohall. Whatever theohall dies as will tell us which of Grund/bb2112 is telling the truth while lynching either of them could yield a false negative due to Two-Face. The main issue I have with that is killing theohall makes certain that if Joker is in game we are giving him another night. Still, if theohall dies "good" then we know bb2112 is lying because Riddler has no way to appear good to us.

Since he is going to be dead I would like triggercut to dump any and all thoughts he may have before that time.

Although lynching Theo is the safer play, I still think we should lynch Grund. With all the reveals, Theo can't hurt us. An HQ conversion could hurt us very badly.

With that said though, even if we lynch Grund today, we still have to guard against a conversion because we will not know if we got Joker or not.

The biggest danger with lynching Grund today is if he is Two-Face. Although, if he was Two-Face, why bother claiming a role at all? His best shot is hiding and pretending to be normal. By claiming a role he could potentially draw a scan and get his cover blown. So I think the odds of him being Two-Face are probably low. At least I hope so.

[Remus West]

Nice. Unagi and Wife get to remove the threat of Superman while I get to "examine" Grundbegriff. Much happier with that outcome.

[bb2112]

You can all stop holding your breath... I am Hawkman

Holy hell!!!

Well ok then. This makes things much easier. We can shoot Trig and Grund. What a great day!

Also, if there are this many heroes, there are probably more than 4 bad guys to balance the game. But I guess it is random and the game is brought to you by the mind of CR, so who the frack knows any more.

[El Guapo]

Hey, anyone know where a gal can get a gun? Honestly this mace is a little unwieldy, and seems pretty impractical as a modern weapon, especially for a petite lass such as myself.



Obviously Unagi is indeed Hawkman (that would've been crazy of him otherwise, but it's good to say it).

I'm no comic book person, but as the kids say I believe it is "clobberin time".

[El Guapo]

Honestly you guys probably should have realized this sooner, since Unagi and I have been carrying this giant maces around this whole time. Plus there's the huge wings.

[purge]

Remus, your shot is also designed to root out people - I have a better suggestion for your shot.

Right now you want to let the hawks (as I originally suggested) use their shot first.

You COULD use your shot on either Austin or Lassr to prove/disprove and remove the chance of a villain hiding.

Plus, neither of you should consider shooting me.

[Remus West]

Well, as CR won't be around to resolve orders until tonight at 9 we have abit of a wait ahead of us.

[coopasonic]

You can all stop holding your breath... I am Hawkman

Holy hell!!!

Well ok then. This makes things much easier. We can shoot Trig and Grund. What a great day!

Also, if there are this many heroes, there are probably more than 4 bad guys to balance the game. But I guess it is random and the game is brought to you by the mind of CR, so who the frack knows any more.

With this many prov(able)en I don't see how we can lose at this point.

[triggercut]

This is awesome.

I agree with the Hawk shoot me, GA maybe shoot someone else (Grund or Theo); just make sure you don't get a Croc in there.

I want to be shot and taken out. I don't wanna be converted to a gimpy team Evil.

I do not have any firsthand knowledge that precludes LL from being Elongated Man.

So:

Triggercut: Superman
tru1cy: Unnamed powered hero.
bb2112: Wonder Woman
Remus: Green Arrow
Unagi: Hawkman
El Guapo: Hawkwoman


I'm listing those as "Proven" for now. Just as I doubt that bb2112 would self-reveal without reason, I doubt that Remus and Unagi would do the same.

LL claims Elongated Man. I dunno. Could be. The rest of his post makes me suspicious of him, but I'll get to that. CR doesn't pick up his mail 'til tonight, so hopefully I've got a bit of time before I'm out.

The thing is interesting. Puts Austin back into the "I dunno" pile.

Calculating....

EDITED to add El Guapo as Hawkwoman replacing "Unnamed player" in the list.

[bb2112]

PLAYERS

1) bb2112 - WW
2) Isgrimnur -
3) coopasonic -
4) Triggercut - Superman
5) El Guapo - Hawkwoman
6) Remus West - Green Arrow
7) Qantaga - Deader
8) tru1cy - Good?/Special?
9) theohall - Riddler
10) purge -
11) Lagom Lite - Elongated Man?
12) Lassr - Normal?
13) Mr Bubbles -
14) Grundbegriff - EVIL
15) Austin -
16) RMC -
17) Unagi - Hawkman

That leaves 6 without a claim, Issy, Coop, Purge, Mr. B, Austin, RMC. Lassr, LL, and Tru1cy as unprovables. So the remaining evils are in this group of 9 once the fireworks are done and the dust settles.

[coopasonic]

He edited, someone shoot him!

[Remus West]

The thing about the post from Austin is that it would have to have been AFTER he had been converted (since the first night was the only non-kill night). Why would a converted Dr. Fate put Riddler in the crosshairs intentionally? I don't see any upside to one Evil placing a clue as to the true role of another Evil player unless they were prepared to sacrifice that day. Why would they set up their own sacrifice so soon? It is odd though.

[purge]

Austin / Lassr are at risk of being protected by the claims of their "scanned" status.

This is where Green Arrow's shot comes in.

The hawkman shot should be at Grund to prove/disprove the Dr. Fate/Batman vs. WW.

[Remus West]

PLAYERS

1) bb2112 - WW
2) Isgrimnur -
3) coopasonic -
4) Triggercut - Superman
5) El Guapo - Hawkwoman
6) Remus West - Green Arrow
7) Qantaga - Deader
8) tru1cy - Good?/Special?
9) theohall - Riddler
10) purge -
11) Lagom Lite - Elongated Man?
12) Lassr - Normal?
13) Mr Bubbles -
14) Grundbegriff - EVIL
15) Austin -
16) RMC -
17) Unagi - Hawkman

That leaves 6 without a claim, Issy, Coop, Purge, Mr. B, Austin, RMC. Lassr, LL, and Tru1cy as unprovables. So the remaining evils are in this group of 9 once the fireworks are done and the dust settles.

[purge]

PLAYERS

1) bb2112 - WW
2) Isgrimnur -
3) coopasonic -
4) Triggercut - Superman
5) El Guapo - Hawkwoman
6) Remus West - Green Arrow
7) Qantaga - Deader
8) tru1cy - Good?/Special?
9) theohall - Riddler
10) purge -
11) Lagom Lite - Elongated Man?
12) Lassr - Normal?
13) Mr Bubbles -
14) Grundbegriff - EVIL
15) Austin -
16) RMC -
17) Unagi - Hawkman

That leaves 6 without a claim, Issy, Coop, Purge, Mr. B, Austin, RMC. Lassr, LL, and Tru1cy as unprovables. So the remaining evils are in this group of 9 once the fireworks are done and the dust settles.

Dude. Seriously? At the end of the Grim train (when I DIDN'T vote to lynch him - for better or worse) he claimed unpowered human.

Also, Austin was claimed to be human by Grund, which Austin validated. Grund felt it was proof of his role, but Lex / Riddler could have gotten that same info.

[Remus West]

Austin / Lassr are at risk of being protected by the claims of their "scanned" status.

This is where Green Arrow's shot comes in.

The hawkman shot should be at Grund to prove/disprove the Dr. Fate/Batman vs. WW.

Why are you working so very hard to preserve Superman? Is he the last shot you see for your team to win?

I say that (assuming Grund dies as Evil) we lynch purge today.

[triggercut]

I want whomever will let me have an open casket to kill me.

[bb2112]

The thing about the post from Austin is that it would have to have been AFTER he had been converted (since the first night was the only non-kill night). Why would a converted Dr. Fate put Riddler in the crosshairs intentionally? I don't see any upside to one Evil placing a clue as to the true role of another Evil player unless they were prepared to sacrifice that day. Why would they set up their own sacrifice so soon? It is odd though.

No, I am not talking about a conversion at all. Austin's post was made early on day 2 after I placed my vote on Theo and the Isgrimnur train lost its momentum.

When he placed in his post, it made me think he was Dr. Fate and also scanned Theo. So he was confirming my vote on a known evil. However, after thinking about it for a while, why would a scanner put himself in danger like that? It would have to have tipped off team evil and then he would be a ripe target for a night kill. No scanner in his right mind would do something like that.

Then it hit me. He was using it to spoof a scanner role later if he ever needed to. He could go back and point to his vote on Theo, a known evil, and the fact that he knew it was the Riddler by also placing the in his post.

[purge]

Austin / Lassr are at risk of being protected by the claims of their "scanned" status.

This is where Green Arrow's shot comes in.

The hawkman shot should be at Grund to prove/disprove the Dr. Fate/Batman vs. WW.

Why are you working so very hard to preserve Superman? Is he the last shot you see for your team to win?

I say that (assuming Grund dies as Evil) we lynch purge today.

If we believe LL, then right now it's killing someone who's on our fucking side. If we can validate WW as a real protector, then perhaps those hidden (e.g. Tru1cy) will be able to come out with more info.

I am suggesting, at this moment, that only ONE shot is used.

That one shot, from the El Guapo and Unagi, should be a happy little thing called death-to-Grund.

I'm curious to see two people validated, considering that Unagi joined late, and is part of a duo. Either CR then had to add another unpowered as a hero, or Unagi and El Guapo are lying.

This is ALSO why I'd like to see your shot held off. Proof, then we talk.

Lynching is so far away.

As a matter of fact, I CALL THAT ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT VILLAINS PULL THEIR LYNCH VOTES.

 withdraw <no one since I have no vote on anyone> 
 

[bb2112]

Austin / Lassr are at risk of being protected by the claims of their "scanned" status.

This is where Green Arrow's shot comes in.

The hawkman shot should be at Grund to prove/disprove the Dr. Fate/Batman vs. WW.

Why are you working so very hard to preserve Superman? Is he the last shot you see for your team to win?

I say that (assuming Grund dies as Evil) we lynch purge today.

With all the reveals, Theo is effectively useless, so I'm good with that.

Purge, Coop, Austin, all good candidates.