OOWW: JLA ... GAME OVER!

[coopasonic]

The only problem with that plan is if Superman doesn't get lynched and we have already used both shooters. That leaves Superman open for the conversion. Good guys lose, game over.

Given the people we know and the people that will be shot, how could we not come together on a supes lynch?

If there were enough to block a trig lynch, we'd have already lost.

[purge]

The only problem with that plan is if Superman doesn't get lynched and we have already used both shooters. That leaves Superman open for the conversion. Good guys lose, game over.

Given the people we know and the people that will be shot, how could we not come together on a supes lynch?

If there were enough to block a trig lynch, we'd have already lost.

He's suggesting I'm lying.

[purge]

Also, no props on the GL picture I found? For shame...

[bb2112]

If I'm lying, then I'd have to be evil. I'm suggesting we shoot two potential villains. Yeah, I might be lying, but I'm looking out for the team. Wasting a shot on superman means I cannot prove the one thing I can do that no one else can.

You want us to trust you, well - I came out after I lost my last place of hiding from the baddies. Look at the post before supes outted Atom. I said (e.g. Tru1cy) to throw trail off me.

I boiled down the groups for a reason, and I even pointed out how Unagi (in my group of four) was the most likely to be special since I wanted to make sure I wasn't painting a target on my own chest.

Go ahead and re-read 40-odd pages and you'll notice I never stray from my position.

Supes will die if we will it. If you're WW, and I have any charges left, I would like your protection. The shooters do not need it, neither will Austin/Lassr who will be proven by Green Arrow, and I think Supes should die today to be safe. His powers are used up (scan, self-protect/proof).

The only thing about my plan is that we're not going for maximum kills - We will have both Grund and BB survive today into the night. I suppose GA could opt instead to shoot the villains, but with so many deceptive people, it becomes 1 in the hand, 2 in the bush.

I'm not convinced. All game long you have been calling out for the good guys to take their shots now. It seems to me like it is an evil hail mary to get us to use our shots and then Superman gets converted.

If you are Green Lantern, then let's find a better way to prove it. Until then, I'm not buying it.

[Remus West]

I believe triggercut, tru1cy, myself, and Grund.

When the shots happen - then I will believe the shooters, but not until then.

You will find that adds up to 7.

Not 6

You should be thrilled right now.

From your perspective - you know there are 6 heroes.

You have yourself and Triggercut (thats 2), and you have 3 shooters about to be proven Heroes. (since you wouldn't know if Triggercut is converted, I wont hold you to the Tru1cy claim that he has made)

That leaves you with 1 person telling the truth out of:
Tru1cy, Lagom Lite, Grund, and purge

Actually, since Batman was given the night zero count he would know if there was a conversion and he told us there was NOT so he could trust both triggercut and tru1cy which would mean Lagom, Grund, and purge would be the three Villains he said there were.

[El Guapo]

The only problem with that plan is if Superman doesn't get lynched and we have already used both shooters. That leaves Superman open for the conversion. Good guys lose, game over.

Given the people we know and the people that will be shot, how could we not come together on a supes lynch?

If there were enough to block a trig lynch, we'd have already lost.

I think what he means is that if we vote to lynch Superman and he doesn't die. This would happen if purge is a villain and lying about being Green Lantern. In that case Superman lives, potentially gets converted, shooters are used up --> we lose.

[purge]

.... and your power is proven to this point?

Let's not get cart ahead of horse.

[triggercut]

So he's suggesting that Hawks and GA shoot Grund and theohall, and then you all vote me to hang and when I do the gallows dance it proves purge as Green Lantern.

Interesting.

Requires a lot of faith in the Lantern, because if he's lying and I walk, then I get converted to Team Gimp who then breeze to an easy victory.

That's just too chancy.

[triggercut]

.... and your power is proven to this point?

Let's not get cart ahead of horse.

Yes, for all intents and purposes, it is.

Yours isn't.

[Remus West]

purge, why do you suggest using a Lantern charge against theohall? If bb2112 is to be believed then theohall has no death power to counter. If theohall is to be believed then theohall has no death power to counter. Why waste a charge on a guy that has no death power regardless? Using the lantern on theohall will tell us nothing regardless of how he is then killed.

I don't believe you.

[El Guapo]

So he's suggesting that Hawks and GA shoot Grund and theohall, and then you all vote me to hang and when I do the gallows dance it proves purge as Green Lantern.

Interesting.

Requires a lot of faith in the Lantern, because if he's lying and I walk, then I get converted to Team Gimp who then breeze to an easy victory.

That's just too chancy.

Kind of win-win for you, though.

[coopasonic]

so how do we prove purge without wasting a shot or risking the supes lynch? I'm not seeing a way to do it. Purge is provable but nobody is willing to risk proving him. That's awkward.

[triggercut]

So he's suggesting that Hawks and GA shoot Grund and theohall, and then you all vote me to hang and when I do the gallows dance it proves purge as Green Lantern.

Interesting.

Requires a lot of faith in the Lantern, because if he's lying and I walk, then I get converted to Team Gimp who then breeze to an easy victory.

That's just too chancy.

Kind of win-win for you, though.

Is it though? If I get converted, all Team Good would do would be to not register votes and basically try to stalemate the game.

[bb2112]

Man-O-Man, is Chaos going to be pissed when he gets home tonight and has to read through all this.

[coopasonic]

Man-O-Man, is Chaos going to be pissed when he gets home tonight and has to read through all this.

we still have 6+ hours to add a few more pages. go go go

[Unagi]

What if:

Hawks Shoot Grund (avoids possible Joker Boom)

We save Remus' Arrow.

We have Purge COUNTER the power on Superman.
We Lynch Superman.


FORK 1:
Superman survives (Purge!!)
At night: Wonder Woman Protects Green Arrow
In the Morning: Green Arrow Shoots Superman
In the Day: We lynch Purge


FORK 2:
Superman dies (Purge !!)
At night: Wonder Woman Protects Green Arrow
In the Morning: Green Arrow shoots someone
In the Day: We lynch someone



Would that work?

Could the Villains defeat that somehow??


Are there risks there that I am missing?

[coopasonic]

good
1) bb2112
4) Newcastle triggercut
5) El Guapo
6) Remus West
8) tru1cy
17) Unagi

bad
14) Grundbegriff
9) theohall

other
2) Isgrimnur
3) coopasonic
10) purge - unproven claim
11) Lagom Lite - unproven claim
12) Lassr
13) Mr Bubbles
15) Austin
16) RMC

6 good, 2 bad, 8 uncertain

today kill 2 bad and trig, leaving 5 good, 8 uncertain
night 4 good 8 uncertain
lynch miss 4 vs 7
night 3 vs 7
lynch miss 3 vs 6
night 2 vs 6...

Yeah we have lots of provens but not enough to get us all the way there. purge's plan moves two more from the uncertain list to the proven list which ought to seal the deal, unless he's lying...

The game feels like it should be won at this point, but I guess not yet.

[triggercut]

purge/Green Lantern a night one convert, playing for team evil.

I don't swing today. Purge survives uses his power to disable Wonder Woman at night.

They kill Remus.

Daytime dawns and Hawks have killed, Green Arrow is dead, and while they've used their convert ability, we now must root through the wreckage and find hidden badguys after taking down purge and theohall.

I think Goodguys still win there, but it puts a little bit of it in doubt.

[Lassr]

I believe triggercut, tru1cy, myself, and Grund.

When the shots happen - then I will believe the shooters, but not until then.

You will find that adds up to 7.

Not 6

You should be thrilled right now.

From your perspective - you know there are 6 heroes.

You have yourself and Triggercut (thats 2), and you have 3 shooters about to be proven Heroes. (since you wouldn't know if Triggercut is converted, I wont hold you to the Tru1cy claim that he has made)

That leaves you with 1 person telling the truth out of:
Tru1cy, Lagom Lite, Grund, and purge

Boom and roasted.

That pretty much puts paid to any lingering doubts regarding Grund and Batman from where I sit.

Bingo!

[Lassr]

good Lord, I think we stumbled into some kind of hero convention. I feel...insignificant.

[Unagi]

I assume this is in reply to my idea of a Purge Test.

purge/Green Lantern a night one convert, playing for team evil.

I don't swing today. Purge survives uses his power to disable Wonder Woman at night.

They kill Remus.

Daytime dawns and Hawks have killed, Green Arrow is dead, and while they've used their convert ability, we now must root through the wreckage and find hidden badguys after taking down purge and theohall.

I think Goodguys still win there, but it puts a little bit of it in doubt.

But if Purge is converted Green Lantern - then the need to kill you vanishes. Everything gets much better, if we actually find out that Green Lantern is converted (by Wonder Woman being thwarted, I imagine...) - that puts you in a totall trusted position. That's a good thing.

[Lassr]

I assume this is in reply to my idea of a Purge Test.

purge/Green Lantern a night one convert, playing for team evil.

I don't swing today. Purge survives uses his power to disable Wonder Woman at night.

They kill Remus.

Daytime dawns and Hawks have killed, Green Arrow is dead, and while they've used their convert ability, we now must root through the wreckage and find hidden badguys after taking down purge and theohall.

I think Goodguys still win there, but it puts a little bit of it in doubt.

But if Purge is converted Green Lantern - then the need to kill you vanishes. Everything gets much better, if we actually find out that Green Lantern is converted (by Wonder Woman being thwarted, I imagine...) - that puts you in a totall trusted position. That's a good thing.

It would seem that Unagi's plan would work after a quick mental run through if none of the key components have been converted...but as stated, if they have been converted, then there is no chance of Superman getting converted.

[triggercut]

I assume this is in reply to my idea of a Purge Test.

purge/Green Lantern a night one convert, playing for team evil.

I don't swing today. Purge survives uses his power to disable Wonder Woman at night.

They kill Remus.

Daytime dawns and Hawks have killed, Green Arrow is dead, and while they've used their convert ability, we now must root through the wreckage and find hidden badguys after taking down purge and theohall.

I think Goodguys still win there, but it puts a little bit of it in doubt.

But if Purge is converted Green Lantern - then the need to kill you vanishes. Everything gets much better, if we actually find out that Green Lantern is converted (by Wonder Woman being thwarted, I imagine...) - that puts you in a totall trusted position. That's a good thing.

Yep, exactly. Like I said, the only downside would be the need to hunt for hidden badguys beyond purge/grund/theo.

FWIW, I think purge is a good guy who locked onto some odd ideas about needing to prove his role.

[purge]

Trig, re-read all of my posts. Seriously.

I've held grim from getting killed, for instance.

I've provided a plan, what, 10 pages ago that we're all now discussing, except it let me remain unproven. Why would I do that, unless I actually thought I was going to die?

When have I ever been scared of Superman, other than following Unagi's train of thought on possible conversion?

I had assumed EM had self-protected based on the way he presented information, and when I said he did, he didn't counter it. Now that conversion is back on the table, we need to make sure supes swings from the gallows because our shooters (and, if you recall, I wanted the Hawks out today, and preferably not the Green Arrow since they were at greater risk of dying at night and losing their powers with one down).

Right now no one is proven save Superman, and since both shooters exist as well as me, the game wouldn't have come to a halt with Superharley (which means trig may have already been converted).

Sure, we could waste a shot on him, but then I can't prove myself. You want to kill him? Fine. Since it's unlikely we have Bats (as they should have come forward to contest Theo's claim), there will be no identification of the dead - so we won't know who has been killed (just good or bad). My power means we can still find two-face.

And, for that, we need to know if we can trust BB's scan of the Riddler. With theo's bad math involved, I'm not ready to entertain Grund's Dr. Fate claims. We have more than 6 heroes.

REMEMBER WHO WAS PUSHING FOR THAT INFO.

Have some faith in me. If you don't, then you haven't been following and you need to re-read.

[bb2112]

What if:

Hawks Shoot Grund (avoids possible Joker Boom)

We save Remus' Arrow.

We have Purge COUNTER the power on Superman.
We Lynch Superman.


FORK 1:
Superman survives (Purge!!)
At night: Wonder Woman Protects Green Arrow
In the Morning: Green Arrow Shoots Superman
In the Day: We lynch Purge


FORK 2:
Superman dies (Purge !!)
At night: Wonder Woman Protects Green Arrow
In the Morning: Green Arrow shoots someone
In the Day: We lynch someone

Would that work?
Could the Villains defeat that somehow??
Are there risks there that I am missing?

The only worry I have is, what if both Remus and Purge are lying? We waste our only shot on Grund. I protect/scan Remus and he is clayface. Superman lives and gets converted.

Not likely, however, I think it is the only hole I can poke in your plan.

[RMC]

See if Purge is GL and was converted, and then let's us Lynch Superman. Then we have a 'proven' hero who is really Harly Quinn..

That is the danger I think we face. We have no idea if Joker is out there, and if night 0 was a blind conversion.

No one has said that they got the message that they 'protected' or self protected anyone, right?

BB says he protected Lassr, but I have not seen any notes from BB saying he blocked an attack.

Tru1cy has not said he blocked an attack, but I guess he could. But he was killed on night 0 last game, I don't see him being the target on night 0 two games in a row.

That leaves LL, who revels but did not say he blocked an attack, right?

So I contend that unless there is someone else powered out there that blocked an attack, someone has been converted on night 0, and if it is one of our powered good guys we have an issue... A person that can be proven, but is not really a hero.

Hell Green Arrow could have been converted and kill Trig, taking out a good guy and proving himself, and since he is no longer 'powered' it would be easy for him to keep alive until the end game as proven..

I don't think one of the hawks could be converted without the other knowing, right???

Anyway, I think paranoia might be setting in, but I don't trust none of you masked freaks! Except maybe Trig, as he did survive the lynch and keeps asking to be shot...

[triggercut]

Trig, re-read all of my posts. Seriously.

I've held grim from getting killed, for instance.

I've provided a plan, what, 10 pages ago that we're all now discussing, except it let me remain unproven. Why would I do that, unless I actually thought I was going to die?

When have I ever been scared of Superman, other than following Unagi's train of thought on possible conversion?

I had assumed EM had self-protected based on the way he presented information, and when I said he did, he didn't counter it. Now that conversion is back on the table, we need to make sure supes swings from the gallows because our shooters (and, if you recall, I wanted the Hawks out today, and preferably not the Green Arrow since they were at greater risk of dying at night and losing their powers with one down).

Right now no one is proven save Superman, and since both shooters exist as well as me, the game wouldn't have come to a halt with Superharley (which means trig may have already been converted).

Sure, we could waste a shot on him, but then I can't prove myself. You want to kill him? Fine. Since it's unlikely we have Bats (as they should have come forward to contest Theo's claim), there will be no identification of the dead - so we won't know who has been killed (just good or bad). My power means we can still find two-face.

And, for that, we need to know if we can trust BB's scan of the Riddler. With theo's bad math involved, I'm not ready to entertain Grund's Dr. Fate claims. We have more than 6 heroes.

REMEMBER WHO WAS PUSHING FOR THAT INFO.

Have some faith in me. If you don't, then you haven't been following and you need to re-read.

Like I said, I think you're who you say you are, but you've locked into some really sketchy plays here.

[Remus West]

Why do you all assume that Superman dying via lynch proves purge is good? He may very well be Green Lantern and turned. None of us can really prove ourselves as Good. Not even the Hawks. If one of them were converted they would still have their kill as both are still alive. I could be Evil and shoot my arrow. There is no "proven good". There are "proven roles".

I will say though that the number of us that came forward there is very little need for me to be the one that takes out Grundbegriff. Thus, if the Hawks kill Superman I wouold probably like to shoot Austin or some other "Normal" to prove them. The biggest issue with that is my shot is covert so none of you would know I had taken it and would be forced to take my word for it. Which goes right back to my point above. Only I can not even prove my role without killing someone with the arrow.

[triggercut]

Hell Green Arrow could have been converted and kill Trig, taking out a good guy and proving himself, and since he is no longer 'powered' it would be easy for him to keep alive until the end game as proven..

Yikes. Hadn't considered that at all.

[El Guapo]

Well, so I think a good question to get answered is for tru1cy to say whether he was targeted night 0. If not, that would raise the odds that a conversion was used then, right?

[Remus West]

RMC, only Elongated Man would know if he protected or not. All the other protectors are not told if they did their job or not. Given that the bad guys had a 3/(17-villains#) chance of hitting a protected the first night our chances are better than normal to have gotten a block but still well under 50% unless there is a silly high number of villains to go with our silly high number of heroes.

[El Guapo]

Why do you all assume that Superman dying via lynch proves purge is good? He may very well be Green Lantern and turned. None of us can really prove ourselves as Good. Not even the Hawks. If one of them were converted they would still have their kill as both are still alive. I could be Evil and shoot my arrow. There is no "proven good". There are "proven roles".

I will say though that the number of us that came forward there is very little need for me to be the one that takes out Grundbegriff. Thus, if the Hawks kill Superman I wouold probably like to shoot Austin or some other "Normal" to prove them. The biggest issue with that is my shot is covert so none of you would know I had taken it and would be forced to take my word for it. Which goes right back to my point above. Only I can not even prove my role without killing someone with the arrow.

Wait, I know that the GA description says that Green Arrow is not revealed by taking the shot, but does that make the shot totally covert? I had assumed if it hits a normal we would get an in-thread announcement from Chaosraven that, "Green Arrow shot so-and-so, who comes back normal." (without saying who Green Arrow is). But do we not even get that?

[bb2112]

RMC, only Elongated Man would know if he protected or not. All the other protectors are not told if they did their job or not. Given that the bad guys had a 3/(17-villains#) chance of hitting a protected the first night our chances are better than normal to have gotten a block but still well under 50% unless there is a silly high number of villains to go with our silly high number of heroes.

Correction: Only EM and Atom would know if an attack on them was successful. Since neither have spoken up, I would have to assume that it wasy my block on Lassr that was probably successful. But I don't get told if I successfully blocked.

Grund, Theo, can you tell us if your night one attack was on Lassr?

[triggercut]

And what do we do if Remus was converted on Night One, and sits and hides as Harley Quinn amongst the heroes the rest of the game?

Yikes yikes yikes.

I'm not sure Remus can prove himself with a shot.

[Unagi]

Trig, re-read all of my posts. Seriously.

honestly,
your posts just have a quality and rambling and self-back-patting that's just hard to get through.

Why do you all assume that Superman dying via lynch proves purge is good? He may very well be Green Lantern and turned.

I actually had the same thought and started to make a simular post, but then when I got to the :

None of us can really prove ourselves as Good. Not even the Hawks. If one of them were converted they would still have their kill as both are still alive. I could be Evil and shoot my arrow. There is no "proven good". There are "proven roles".

part, I figured - "what's the point of making this point". Bottom line is - if we have a night without a kill (AND WE HAVE) we can't totally trust anyone.

I don't think one of the hawks could be converted without the other knowing, right???

I assume that El Guapo or I could be converted without the other knowing it.

[Remus West]

Why do you all assume that Superman dying via lynch proves purge is good? He may very well be Green Lantern and turned. None of us can really prove ourselves as Good. Not even the Hawks. If one of them were converted they would still have their kill as both are still alive. I could be Evil and shoot my arrow. There is no "proven good". There are "proven roles".

I will say though that the number of us that came forward there is very little need for me to be the one that takes out Grundbegriff. Thus, if the Hawks kill Superman I wouold probably like to shoot Austin or some other "Normal" to prove them. The biggest issue with that is my shot is covert so none of you would know I had taken it and would be forced to take my word for it. Which goes right back to my point above. Only I can not even prove my role without killing someone with the arrow.

Wait, I know that the GA description says that Green Arrow is not revealed by taking the shot, but does that make the shot totally covert? I had assumed if it hits a normal we would get an in-thread announcement from Chaosraven that, "Green Arrow shot so-and-so, who comes back normal." (without saying who Green Arrow is). But do we not even get that?

You get nothing was my understanding. The reason I was given is that the protection I confer would be pretty useless if announced to the general public.

As I noted, none of us can prove our side, only our roles. Anyone converted night 1 can still use their abilities.

[El Guapo]

I'm pretty sure I'd be wearing way more tight black leather if I had been turned evil.

[Unagi]

I'm not sure Remus can prove himself with a shot.

No One Can.

However, I am going to go with my gut on this - and I am going to consider how things were before all of these outings and all of it. Right now, I don't think Remus is converted... and frankly - i think the Conversion has already happened.

For instance... Purge, it could be that he's been trying to get our shots 'used up' so that he could stealth turn them off (as Evil Purge), but for some reason, I just don't get that feeling.

[Remus West]

I'm not sure Remus can prove himself with a shot.

No One Can.

However, I am going to go with my gut on this - and I am going to consider how things were before all of these outings and all of it. Right now, I don't think Remus is converted... and frankly - i think the Conversion has already happened.

For instance... Purge, it could be that he's been trying to get our shots 'used up' so that he could stealth turn them off (as Evil Purge), but for some reason, I just don't get that feeling.

Were that Purge's aim he would not have claimed Green Lantern. He would simply have covertly ruined our shots.

[RMC]

RMC, only Elongated Man would know if he protected or not. All the other protectors are not told if they did their job or not. Given that the bad guys had a 3/(17-villains#) chance of hitting a protected the first night our chances are better than normal to have gotten a block but still well under 50% unless there is a silly high number of villains to go with our silly high number of heroes.

I went and checked, and the atom would know as well (Sorry should have checked first):

Atom: unless his identity is Known/Verified cannot be killed at Night. The Atom will be informed of his evasion.

So Lassr might have been the night 0 target and no one but Team evil would know they targeted someone and did not kill them.

Hmmm....