Game of Thrones - Season 2 Discussion

[mori]

Episode 1, Season 1. Incest
Episode 1, Season 2. Incest

Well that settles it then, eh?

For someone that is not familiar with the books, it seemed shocking to lead off both seasons with the subject.

[mori]

Nearly all the battles are told of after-the-fact throughout the books.

Ok then. Thanks for the response.

[Zaxxon]

It happens to be an integral part of the tale. I don't think there's a 'fascination' with it, though. And as MHS alluded, it would be weirder if there was a historical-esque tale the size of this one where there *wasn't* some incest. It used to be a popular thing for various reasons.

Edit: As for the battles, some are after-the fact, while others are shown. I heard a rumor we may see one on-screen this season.

[Odin]

It happens to be an integral part of the tale. I don't think there's a 'fascination' with it, though. And as MHS alluded, it would be weirder if there was a historical-esque tale the size of this one where there *wasn't* some incest. It used to be a popular thing for various reasons.

Edit: As for the battles, some are after-the fact, while others are shown. I heard a rumor we may see one on-screen this season.

I heard that same rumor - and that George R. R. Martin himself wrote the episode in question. If it's not epic in every conceivable way, I'll be very surprised. It's depicted quite well in the books.

[Peoux]

However, on the Cressen-Melisandre poison scene, it was quite clear to those paying attention. The Dragonstone section began with Melisandre burning the gods and Cressen speaking out about how and why she needed to be stopped. Then a few minutes later he tries to stop her, and this is confusing?

I got the bit about old guy wanting to stop her and the poison scene was clear enough - but I had no idea what was burning on the beach.

The fact that they were the gods most of the folks there grew up worshiping was mentioned.

It was mentioned - but there was hardly anything showing that this was upsetting to anyone, only Cressen seemed mildly disconcerted
Having read the books it wasn't difficult or confusing, but I can definitely see how it could be for someone who did not read the books.

One thing I think the book readers are missing is that the Melisandre intro scene in the books was a prologue. At the point the books introduce her, there's not much to go on there either. It's only as you progress and keep coming back to the other POV characters around her that you start getting some of the whys and wherefores about her.

Exactly. That's what I meant by 'she's supposed to be mysterious' but you said it much better than I did.

Yeah, we're all kind of going off based on just this first episode, so I'll grant it's a bit early to make a judgement on whether her introduction truly was too thin. I have read the books and I'm not worried on my own account, just agreeing with those who say it could be hard being a casual spectator to this show. The learning curve is steep

[Exodor]

I rewatched S2E01 on the iPad with the interactive features and it was awesome - it did a great job of reminding you about minor characters and giving little bits of behind-the-scenes info.

They still didn't say anything about the Lady in Red (Melisandre?) - obviously she's supposed to be a mystery at this point.

[JonathanStrange]

It happens to be an integral part of the tale. I don't think there's a 'fascination' with it, though.

I agree. In a story filled with ambition, betrayals, power struggles, bloody deaths, hints of magic, rumors of war, hundreds of characters - I can't help but think the "incest fascination" claim to be a rather weak one. One might as easily say G R R Martin's fascinated by dwarves or decapitations or...

I remember - I think it was on this forum, too, a few years back, in a different thread - when someone posted that they had read far enough into the first book to know they hated (or something to that effect) Catelyn Stark, Ned's wife, because she was cold to Jon Snow (Ned's bastard son). In a novel with all sorts of brutal and ruthless deeds, I couldn't work up much outrage myself for a woman not being pleased at having her husband's illegitimate son hanging around the castle.

My wife thinks GRRM's overly fond of brothel scenes though I tell her that I hardly remember reading them in the stories myself. They were there but rarely extensive or graphic. Must be an HBOesque enhancement to draw in the male demo, I argue. Personally, in the series, I find them a distraction but whatever...

BTW, was that a sort of Captain America armor that the late knight - the one that King Joffrey had ordered be given wine enough (and then some) to satisfy his thirst - was wearing? It seemed to me to have the Stars&Stripes on it. My imagination?

[Carpet_pissr]

One might as easily say G R R Martin's fascinated by dwarves or decapitations or...

...boiled leather and mummer's farces?

[Zaxxon]

Mr. Strange, I can't help but notice that you are located in Santa Fe. Would you please go knock on Mr. Martin's door and ask him precisely what his fascinations are?

[Daveman]

Let's not forget "nightsoil" either.

[JonathanStrange]

Mr. Strange, I can't help but notice that you are located in Santa Fe. Would you please go knock on Mr. Martin's door and ask him precisely what his fascinations are?

House Martin is guarded by The Hound. It's worth one's life to get past him or The Mountain.

I've seen him about in Santa Fe; not often and not for months. I don't even know if he's currently around. I did hear him speak at the Kimo Theatre a few months back - it was a library benefit - but I failed to ask anything.

Do I dare risk a crossbow bolt with a "What's with all the family issues? That's messed up, GRRM" question.

The name's Reek, rhymes with meek.

[Carpet_pissr]

Do I dare risk a crossbow bolt with a "What's with all the family issues? That's messed up, GRRM" question..

I assume when he makes public appearances, that he is surrounded by fanbois, so I will answer your question with a question: Do you like being shouted down and mobbed by greasy haired cheetos eaters with BO?

[Exodor]

I remember - I think it was on this forum, too, a few years back, in a different thread - when someone posted that they had read far enough into the first book to know they hated (or something to that effect) Catelyn Stark, Ned's wife, because she was cold to Jon Snow (Ned's bastard son). In a novel with all sorts of brutal and ruthless deeds, I couldn't work up much outrage myself for a woman not being pleased at having her husband's illegitimate son hanging around the castle.

I'm working my way through the first book now and it's striking how much more cruelly book-Catelyn treats Jon Snow compared to show-Catelyn.

Book-Catelyn is kind of a bitch.

[Odin]

Book-Catelyn is kind of a bitch.

She definitely is, but I have a hard time blaming her. As cool as Jon Snow is (and he's one of my favorites), his presence had to be an open wound in that home. Catelyn clearly had an EXCELLENT relationship with Eddard, despite the strange and unfortunate way they came to be married and Ned's extended absence shortly thereafter. The ONE big sticking point in their marriage was the question of Jon. Who his mother was, where she was, what sort of relationship she'd had with Ned, etc. Questions Ned refused to answer. Not surprising that she took out her frustrations on the boy she was forced to live with.

[hepcat]

The ONE big sticking point in their marriage was the question of Jon. Who his mother was, where she was, what sort of relationship she'd had with Ned, etc.

I don't know about Ned, but I'm guessing at some point she slept with Jon.

[Scuzz]

The ONE big sticking point in their marriage was the question of Jon. Who his mother was, where she was, what sort of relationship she'd had with Ned, etc.

I don't know about Ned, but I'm guessing at some point she slept with Jon.

[MHS]

The ONE big sticking point in their marriage was the question of Jon. Who his mother was, where she was, what sort of relationship she'd had with Ned, etc.

I don't know about Ned, but I'm guessing at some point she slept with Jon.

Wait, what?

[Zaxxon]

Yeah, GRRM had to put at least one instance of *non* incest in there, right?

[hepcat]

I'm surprised anyone has working thumbs on this show, the amount of inbreeding that's going on.

[Isgrimnur]

The ONE big sticking point in their marriage was the question of Jon. Who his mother was, where she was, what sort of relationship she'd had with Ned, etc. Questions Ned refused to answer. Not surprising that she took out her frustrations on the boy she was forced to live with.

MASSIVE BOOK SPOILERS!

Spoiler:

Yeah, what's funny is how much of a big deal that gets made early on and how much it's become a moot point later on in the books.

[Zaxxon]

Spoiler:

Or so the Germans would have you believe.

[Odin]

The ONE big sticking point in their marriage was the question of Jon. Who his mother was, where she was, what sort of relationship she'd had with Ned, etc. Questions Ned refused to answer. Not surprising that she took out her frustrations on the boy she was forced to live with.

MASSIVE BOOK SPOILERS!

Spoiler:

Yeah, what's funny is how much of a big deal that gets made early on and how much it's become a moot point later on in the books.

Spoiler:

Yeah, that plot thread has grown incredibly thin at this point, especially with the end of A Dance with Dragons. It seemed back in books 1-3 like it would end up being REALLY important at some point - like in a "Jon is the rightful Dragonprince" or something along those lines. Now, it's hard to imagine it playing any role whatsoever, even with characters like the milk-brother still roaming around. I wonder if that was always Martin's plan, or if he changed his mind at some point?

[JonathanStrange]

Do you like being shouted down and mobbed by greasy haired cheetos eaters with BO?

Heh, I come to OO Forum, don't I?

Returning to the series though:

Much of the story revolves around family, family dynamics, their history, blood ties, loyalty, etc. - much of it being tied to the survival of this or that House - that I don't find it inappropriate or an odd fascination of GRRM's that he's included elements we find distasteful. IIRC, the people of Westeros generally feel the same though it would be dangerous to say too much about the nobility's inbreeding.

[Zaxxon]

The ONE big sticking point in their marriage was the question of Jon. Who his mother was, where she was, what sort of relationship she'd had with Ned, etc. Questions Ned refused to answer. Not surprising that she took out her frustrations on the boy she was forced to live with.

MASSIVE BOOK SPOILERS!

Spoiler:

Yeah, what's funny is how much of a big deal that gets made early on and how much it's become a moot point later on in the books.

Spoiler:

Yeah, that plot thread has grown incredibly thin at this point, especially with the end of A Dance with Dragons. It seemed back in books 1-3 like it would end up being REALLY important at some point - like in a "Jon is the rightful Dragonprince" or something along those lines. Now, it's hard to imagine it playing any role whatsoever, even with characters like the milk-brother still roaming around. I wonder if that was always Martin's plan, or if he changed his mind at some point?

Spoiler:

You think he's dead, eh?

[Isgrimnur]

The ONE big sticking point in their marriage was the question of Jon. Who his mother was, where she was, what sort of relationship she'd had with Ned, etc. Questions Ned refused to answer. Not surprising that she took out her frustrations on the boy she was forced to live with.

MASSIVE BOOK SPOILERS!

Spoiler:

Yeah, what's funny is how much of a big deal that gets made early on and how much it's become a moot point later on in the books.

Spoiler:

Yeah, that plot thread has grown incredibly thin at this point, especially with the end of A Dance with Dragons. It seemed back in books 1-3 like it would end up being REALLY important at some point - like in a "Jon is the rightful Dragonprince" or something along those lines. Now, it's hard to imagine it playing any role whatsoever, even with characters like the milk-brother still roaming around. I wonder if that was always Martin's plan, or if he changed his mind at some point?

Spoiler:

You think he's dead, eh?

Spoiler:

First rule of media consumption: Never assume someone is dead until you see a body.

And even then, especially in this series, that's no guarantee he stays that way, although I do note a lack of red priests in the vicinity

[Odin]

Spoiler:

You think he's dead, eh?

Spoiler:

I'm trying to reserve judgement, because I'm really not sure what to think. I see several possibilities, and I'm sure I haven't thought of them all.
1. He's just dead. End of POV character. I think this is actually very unlikely.
2. He's going to end up merged with his wolf. This strikes me as most likely, but also seems like it would be extremely tedious. I mean, it's a really, really big wolf, but it's not exactly going to be Lord Commander of the Night's Watch anymore, much less consort and future co-ruler with Danaerys Targaryen, as looked plausible at one point way back in the first few books.
3. He's badly wounded, but his wolf comes to the rescue (or something) and Melisandre is able to heal him. This probably strikes me as second-most likely at this point, though it seems a bit of a cop-out akin to Arya taking an axe to the head and then going out for beers with the hound shortly thereafter.
4. A variation on 3, wherein he's dead, but Melisandre gives him the kiss of life and brings him back Catelyn-style.
5. Something completely unforeseen relating to the Old Gods, akin to what's become of Bran and Coldhands. I put this down as approximately tied with #1 for least likely outcome, but I can't completely discount it.

[Odin]

Spoiler:

First rule of media consumption: Never assume someone is dead until you see a body.

And even then, especially in this series, that's no guarantee he stays that way, although I do note a lack of red priests in the vicinity

Spoiler:

You mean besides Melisandre, who's right there in the same place?

[Zaxxon]

Spoiler:

Yeah, which is why I was surprised at your comment about the plotline being thin. I think there's a high probability that it's still a big deal.

[Odin]

Spoiler:

Yeah, which is why I was surprised at your comment about the plotline being thin. I think there's a high probability that it's still a big deal.

Spoiler:

Well, yes and no. In two of the scenarios I noted (1 & 2) it becomes completely irrelevant because he's been taken completely out of human society. Depending on the nature of scenario 5, it potentially applies there as well. It could play a role if he ends up as a Catelyn-style undead, but they're pretty seriously damaged goods. There's really only one potential scenario I can come up with where it might easily play a role, and I'm not optimistic that it's the correct one.

[Carpet_pissr]

Spoiler:

You think he's dead, eh?

Spoiler:

I'm trying to reserve judgement, because I'm really not sure what to think. I see several possibilities, and I'm sure I haven't thought of them all.
1. He's just dead. End of POV character. I think this is actually very unlikely.
2. He's going to end up merged with his wolf. This strikes me as most likely, but also seems like it would be extremely tedious. I mean, it's a really, really big wolf, but it's not exactly going to be Lord Commander of the Night's Watch anymore, much less consort and future co-ruler with Danaerys Targaryen, as looked plausible at one point way back in the first few books.
3. He's badly wounded, but his wolf comes to the rescue (or something) and Melisandre is able to heal him. This probably strikes me as second-most likely at this point, though it seems a bit of a cop-out akin to Arya taking an axe to the head and then going out for beers with the hound shortly thereafter.
4. A variation on 3, wherein he's dead, but Melisandre gives him the kiss of life and brings him back Catelyn-style.
5. Something completely unforeseen relating to the Old Gods, akin to what's become of Bran and Coldhands. I put this down as approximately tied with #1 for least likely outcome, but I can't completely discount it.

Still pissed about the second part of your #3 in the spoiler there.

[Isgrimnur]

Spoiler:

First rule of media consumption: Never assume someone is dead until you see a body.

And even then, especially in this series, that's no guarantee he stays that way, although I do note a lack of red priests in the vicinity

Spoiler:

You mean besides Melisandre, who's right there in the same place?

[Zaxxon]

Spoiler:

Yeah, which is why I was surprised at your comment about the plotline being thin. I think there's a high probability that it's still a big deal.

Spoiler:

Well, yes and no. In two of the scenarios I noted (1 & 2) it becomes completely irrelevant because he's been taken completely out of human society. Depending on the nature of scenario 5, it potentially applies there as well. It could play a role if he ends up as a Catelyn-style undead, but they're pretty seriously damaged goods. There's really only one potential scenario I can come up with where it might easily play a role, and I'm not optimistic that it's the correct one.

Spoiler:

I will be very surprised if Jon isn't alive, well [enough], and still Jon.

[MHS]

Spoiler:

You think he's dead, eh?

Spoiler:

I'm trying to reserve judgement, because I'm really not sure what to think. I see several possibilities, and I'm sure I haven't thought of them all.
1. He's just dead. End of POV character. I think this is actually very unlikely.
2. He's going to end up merged with his wolf. This strikes me as most likely, but also seems like it would be extremely tedious. I mean, it's a really, really big wolf, but it's not exactly going to be Lord Commander of the Night's Watch anymore, much less consort and future co-ruler with Danaerys Targaryen, as looked plausible at one point way back in the first few books.
3. He's badly wounded, but his wolf comes to the rescue (or something) and Melisandre is able to heal him. This probably strikes me as second-most likely at this point, though it seems a bit of a cop-out akin to Arya taking an axe to the head and then going out for beers with the hound shortly thereafter.
4. A variation on 3, wherein he's dead, but Melisandre gives him the kiss of life and brings him back Catelyn-style.
5. Something completely unforeseen relating to the Old Gods, akin to what's become of Bran and Coldhands. I put this down as approximately tied with #1 for least likely outcome, but I can't completely discount it.

Still pissed about the second part of your #3 in the spoiler there.

Spoiler:

She didn't actually take the business end of the axe to the head though. The POV chapter ending was all cliff-hangery and dramatic but as soon as they go back to her POV, it's made clear he just hit her with the dull end of it or the handle. TV shows do that kind of crap all the time, it didn't really bother me that much.

[Zaxxon]

Spoiler:

Proposition: In GRRM books thus far, the following are true--

-If a POV character is seen dying, they are dying.
-If a POV character experiences their own seeming death, it's bullshit.

Correct?

Also, hey how about some season 2 discussion? New episode this weekend!!!111111!!!eleventyone!!

[Odin]

Spoiler:

She didn't actually take the business end of the axe to the head though. The POV chapter ending was all cliff-hangery and dramatic but as soon as they go back to her POV, it's made clear he just hit her with the dull end of it or the handle. TV shows do that kind of crap all the time, it didn't really bother me that much.

Spoiler:

Granted, but it was still an el-switcheroo, particularly after Martin set us up with Eddard the way he did. When Baelish first puts the knife to his back, it kind of reads as if he stuck it IN his back, but he didn't, so he's fine. But then they chop his head off, and he's dead. Then we get to Arya and we're all like "OMG, the hound just hit her in the head with an axe! She's dead! OMG OMG OMGGGG!!" Until you get a little farther along and the title of the chapter is "Arya" and you're all like, "WTF?" It doesn't bother me as much as it does C_P, but it always seemed like a cheap trick to me.

[Odin]

Spoiler:

Proposition: In GRRM books thus far, the following are true--

-If a POV character is seen dying, they are dying.
-If a POV character experiences their own seeming death, it's bullshit.

Correct?

Spoiler:

I can't contradict that, no.

Also, hey how about some season 2 discussion? New episode this weekend!!!111111!!!eleventyone!!

Well, since only one of us has seen it, there's not a whole lot to discuss without just spoiling stuff based on the books. In fact, if we were better people, we'd have kept this whole spoilered discussion we just had to one of the book-related topics instead of doing it here, since we're talking about stuff from seasons 3-5.

[Exodor]

Also, hey how about some season 2 discussion? New episode this weekend!!!111111!!!eleventyone!!

How quickly do episodes appear on HBOGo?

I'll be on an airplane at 9 PM Sunday night.


Also, note to self - avoid quoting posts with spoilers as it reveals the spoilered text.

[Odin]

Also, note to self - avoid quoting posts with spoilers as it reveals the spoilered text.

Sorry.

[Zaxxon]

Also, hey how about some season 2 discussion? New episode this weekend!!!111111!!!eleventyone!!

How quickly do episodes appear on HBOGo?

HBO Go gets the episodes the same time they first air on HBO. Within a minute or two, anyway.

[Zaxxon]

Spoiler:

Proposition: In GRRM books thus far, the following are true--

-If a POV character is seen dying, they are dying.
-If a POV character experiences their own seeming death, it's bullshit.

Correct?

Spoiler:

I can't contradict that, no.

Spoiler:

Ergo, Jon Snow is alive.