Game of Thrones - Season 2 Discussion

[Odin]

Spoiler:

Proposition: In GRRM books thus far, the following are true--

-If a POV character is seen dying, they are dying.
-If a POV character experiences their own seeming death, it's bullshit.

Correct?

Spoiler:

I can't contradict that, no.

Spoiler:

Ergo, Jon Snow is alive.

Spoiler:

Which is why I said I thought that my first scenario was extremely unlikely. But "alive" is a relative term in this world. Catelyn is up and around, but she's far from "alive" in the traditional sense. He'd still be alive if he merges with Ghost, too, but I'm not sure I want to read POV chapters with him in that state.

"Jon Snow had been licking his balls, but stopped when horsemen rode into the courtyard of Castle Black. Tongue lolling from the side of his mouth, his ice-blue eyes tracked them. He could smell the sweat and the oil on their armor, even the hot blood pumped through the horses by their enormous hearts. He could... SQUIRREL!!"

[Sepiche]

Spoiler:

Proposition: In GRRM books thus far, the following are true--

-If a POV character is seen dying, they are dying.
-If a POV character experiences their own seeming death, it's bullshit.

Correct?

Spoiler:

I can't contradict that, no.

Spoiler:

Ergo, Jon Snow is alive.

Re-read the prologue of the last book. I suspect that lays out exactly how

Spoiler:

Jon will survive.

[Zaxxon]

Spoiler:

When I say alive, I mean in the traditional sense. I think we're talking around each other--you said the plotline is getting thin. I said I think Jon is still with us and thus the plotline is still very much thick. We'll see when book 6 hits the shelves just after the next election. In 2016.

[Odin]

Spoiler:

When I say alive, I mean in the traditional sense. I think we're talking around each other--you said the plotline is getting thin. I said I think Jon is still with us and thus the plotline is still very much thick. We'll see when book 6 hits the shelves just after the next election. In 2016.

Spoiler:

Well, we are and we aren't. I wasn't sure what you meant by "alive," since Catalyn died in her own POV but is not alive in the traditional sense. So I wasn't sure what you meant by that. As Sepiche points out, the prologue of ADwD feels very much like potential foreshadowing right now.

As to the plotline, it just seemed like a much bigger deal in the first few books than it has lately. SO many of the relevant characters are dead, and new explanations of Jon's parentage keep cropping up that are even less interesting (the latest being that Eddard fathered him on a fisherman's daughter as she rowed him across the sea from the Vale.) The waters get murkier and murkier, and the few relevant characters seem to get farther awayrather than closer.

[Carpet_pissr]

Spoiler:

"Jon Snow had been licking his balls, but stopped when horsemen rode into the courtyard of Castle Black. Tongue lolling from the side of his mouth, his ice-blue eyes tracked them. He could smell the sweat and the oil on their armor, even the hot blood pumped through the horses by their enormous hearts. He could... SQUIRREL!!"

Beautiful.

[hog]

Spoiler:

Proposition: In GRRM books thus far, the following are true--

-If a POV character is seen dying, they are dying.
-If a POV character experiences their own seeming death, it's bullshit.

Correct?

Spoiler:

I can't contradict that, no.

Spoiler:

What about the guy in Dance with Dragons, near the end, who snuck in and got roasted by one of Dany's dragons? He died, and wasn't that in his own POV chapter? Or am I remembering that wrong? I can't even remember the guy's name, so I wouldn't be surprised if I got that wrong.

However, I do think that Jon is alive. As much credit as Martin gets for killing off important characters, he hasn't really done that except once, maybe twice if you count the RW.

[Zaxxon]

Spoiler:

Nope. He was burned in his own chapter, but he died in another POV chapter (Barristan's).

[hog]

Spoiler:

Holy crap!! Completely forgot/missed that. So you're right, Jon must be alive! QED! Proof by contradiction (or lack thereof)!

[Zaxxon]

The Finances of Game of Thrones (minor season 2 spoilers for those who haven't read 'A Clash of Kings'.

[Odin]

The Finances of Game of Thrones (minor season 2 spoilers for those who haven't read 'A Clash of Kings'.

The last line of that article sounds right to me - that not only is the greenlight for season 3 on the way, but most likely season 4 as well. A Storm of Swords, the third novel, is absolutely HUGE. I'm betting they'll split it into two seasons, possibly mixing in part of A Feast for Crows (which is mostly filler) if there's room. I expect that season 5 will be a combination of AFfC and A Dance with Dragons, with emphasis on the latter.

[Zaxxon]

The Finances of Game of Thrones (minor season 2 spoilers for those who haven't read 'A Clash of Kings'.

The last line of that article sounds right to me - that not only is the greenlight for season 3 on the way, but most likely season 4 as well. A Storm of Swords, the third novel, is absolutely HUGE. I'm betting they'll split it into two seasons, possibly mixing in part of A Feast for Crows (which is mostly filler) if there's room. I expect that season 5 will be a combination of AFfC and A Dance with Dragons, with emphasis on the latter.

Yep. I agree. I could be mixing up my sources, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading DB/Dan confirming both of those things--ASoS being split and AFfF/ADwD being combined into 2 more seasons. They've flat-out said they can't do ASoS in 10 episodes and that they look at the show as adapting the series, not a specific book each season.

[Odin]

Yep. I agree. I could be mixing up my sources, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading DB/Dan confirming both of those things--ASoS being split and AFfF/ADwD being combined into 2 more seasons. They've flat-out said they can't do ASoS in 10 episodes and that they look at the show as adapting the series, not a specific book each season.

To be honest, it's entirely possible that my amazing prophetic ability is actually a subconscious regurgitation of an article I read at some point.

[Zaxxon]

Yep. I agree. I could be mixing up my sources, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading DB/Dan confirming both of those things--ASoS being split and AFfF/ADwD being combined into 2 more seasons. They've flat-out said they can't do ASoS in 10 episodes and that they look at the show as adapting the series, not a specific book each season.

To be honest, it's entirely possible that my amazing prophetic ability is actually a subconscious regurgitation of an article I read at some point.

Nah, you've just been spending quality time with your nightfires again.

[Daveman]

I simply can't wait to see Dinklage and the rest of the cast take on Tyrion's last chapter in A Storm of Swords.

[Crabbs]

Yep. I agree. I could be mixing up my sources, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading DB/Dan confirming both of those things--ASoS being split and AFfF/ADwD being combined into 2 more seasons. They've flat-out said they can't do ASoS in 10 episodes and that they look at the show as adapting the series, not a specific book each season.

To be honest, it's entirely possible that my amazing prophetic ability is actually a subconscious regurgitation of an article I read at some point.

Nah, you've just been spending quality time with your nightfires again.

As long he's not spending quality time with his Nightsoil we're all good.

[Odin]

They certainly changed their share of things in this one, didn't they?

Rakharo, dead in the Red Wastes?
Bronn taking over the city watch?
Melisandre seducing Stannis openly with the promise of a son?

That's all.... very different. Not necessarily earth-shattering, but very different.

Good episode, don't get me wrong, but unless I really mis-read the books, that constitutes, among other things, a not insignificant change in the relationship between Stannis and Melisandre. And I honestly don't even know what to make of the end.

[Skinypupy]

I Was wondering if I had seriously misremembered things from the books (its been a long time since I read them), or if they had made significant changes. Glad to know my memory wasn't entirely failing. The Melisandre/Stannis relationship really changes things.

Was that Mormont who clubbed Snow at the end? The TV at this hotel isn't very good, and I was having a hard time seeing what was going on.

[Odin]

Was that Mormont who clubbed Snow at the end? The TV at this hotel isn't very good, and I was having a hard time seeing what was going on.

It sure looked like it to me, yes. That whole scene baffled me. I was just starting to think, "this must be a dream sequence or something" when it ended. I have no idea what was happening there - it bears no resemblance to anything I can think of from the books.

[Zaxxon]

I haven't watched the episode yet so I'm not sure how I'll react to the Melisandre-Stannis scene (just about to get started and couldn't stay out of the thread), but it's pretty strongly implied in the books that Melisandre and Stannis are a bit more than friendly.

[MHS]

I haven't watched the episode yet so I'm not sure how I'll react to the Melisandre-Stannis scene (just about to get started and couldn't stay out of the thread), but it's pretty strongly implied in the books that Melisandre and Stannis are a bit more than friendly.

I disagree. It's questioned in the books, because Stannis is not close to his wife and Melisandre basically becomes the most important person in Stannis's life, but it really cuts from the core of who and what Stannis is. He's supposed to be this paragon of honor- the kind of man who would never betray his own integrity. I don't know, I found it jarring. I guess the "son" will be the thing she births later?

And Ep. 3 had incestual tones too, with Theon feeling up Asha Yarra...I'd forgotten about that in my defense of ol' George not being obsessed with it.

[The Meal]

I saw the books the same way Zack saw them, and MHS pointed out that

[book spoiler, fine for folks who've read through the first three...]

Spoiler:

she *does* birth something,

which maybe should've been another hint at the physical relationship between her and Stannis.

I thought this one was significantly better than S02E01 (which didn't really grab me).

[Zaxxon]

Finally watched the episode. Liked it overall, though it didn't pass the wife test (eg the someone-who-hasn't-read-the-books test). It was nearly all slow-going background or exposition. Worked for me, but not for her.

MHS, I'm pretty sure you're giving Stannis too much credit.

Spoiler:

It's stated multiple times in the books that Stannis is helping create the 'children' that Melisandre births. I suppose he could be contributing via midi-chlorians or something, but I'm going with Occam's Razor on this one. Yes he tries very hard to be a man of honor, but he's going to do what it takes to take his (rightful) throne. Melisandre can help give him what he needs to do so, so he goes along. He doesn't like it, but he goes along. I also wouldn't discount Melisandre putting forth some voodoo onto him to get what she needs. I don't think we know yet, but my read has always been that Melisandre is really the one pulling the strings in Stannis' camp.

Was that Mormont who clubbed Snow at the end? The TV at this hotel isn't very good, and I was having a hard time seeing what was going on.

It sure looked like it to me, yes. That whole scene baffled me. I was just starting to think, "this must be a dream sequence or something" when it ended. I have no idea what was happening there - it bears no resemblance to anything I can think of from the books.

It was Craster. As for what was happening, Craster deposited a boy in the wilderness outside the camp/homestead, an Other took it. Jon saw, and Craster clubbed him.

I didn't see it as a dream sequence. I think this scene was created to conflate several scenes/stories in the books that divulge the same information as to

Spoiler:

what happens to Craster's sons / why Craster isn't bothered by the Others.

They certainly changed their share of things in this one, didn't they?

Rakharo, dead in the Red Wastes?
Bronn taking over the city watch?
Melisandre seducing Stannis openly with the promise of a son?

Rakharo: Remember, he doesn't exist in the books (that character is Jhogo). So they already changed him. But yes, this outcome is certainly different from Jhogo's.

Bronn: I think they

Spoiler:

nuked the character of Jacelyn Bywater (the interim commander of the city watch between Slynt and Marbrand) and are using Bronn instead. No real reason to put Bywater in, and the role suits Bronn, methinks. Also probably helps cut down on confusion for non-bookie viewers. Not sure I like it, but the rationale makes sense to me.

Melisandre: addressed above.

[Sherpa]

That was definitely Craster who clubbed Jon, after giving away his son to the white walker.

Always wondered who the father of

Spoiler:

the shadow-baby-creature-thing

was

[TiLT]

Both the Stannis/Melisandre thing and Jon Snow's observation felt familiar to me, even if the books never had these things play out in the same way. Stannis and Melisandre most likely did do the horizontal shuffle in the books, but since neither was a viewpoint character we could never observe it first-hand. I clearly seem to remember that Craster left his sons for the White Walkers in the books too, but I can't remember the details.

[Odin]

Both the Stannis/Melisandre thing and Jon Snow's observation felt familiar to me, even if the books never had these things play out in the same way. Stannis and Melisandre most likely did do the horizontal shuffle in the books, but since neither was a viewpoint character we could never observe it first-hand.

That's absolutely true - they definitely did. But MUCH later, and not right on the map table of Westeros. It's the difference between Stannis actually being seduced, and Stannis dropping his drawers to do what is required of him

Spoiler:

for Melisandre to cast her spells.

As MHS says, this version of Stannis is wantonly cheating on his wife. That's a very different man than the guy we saw in the novels, and we're talking about the actual core of his character, not just some ancillary attribute like "in the books he liked pie, but in the show he seems to prefer cake."

I clearly seem to remember that Craster left his sons for the White Walkers in the books too, but I can't remember the details.

Pretty sure we're told this by one of Craster's wives at some point - possibly by Gilly herself. We certainly never see it happen, as there are no eligible babes for him to do it with in the novels.

Probably not a spoiler, but...

Spoiler:

in fact, Craster has almost no livestock left, because he's been offering those in lieu of sons

I'm confused by Zach's comment about Rakharo/Jhogo. They both exist in the books, it's just that much of the Jhogo character has been transposed into Rakharo. They're both supposed to be alive at this point, however.

Relevant ruminations on much later books (some as yet unwritten):

Spoiler:

Really makes me wonder, does Martin sign off on this up front, saying, "I'm absolutely positive that Rakharo/Jhogo will play no pivotal role in any of the remaining novels, so go ahead and off him."? Or does he get to a point later on where he says, "Hmm, Rakharo/Jhogo needs to come flying into King's Landing on a dragon and nuke the place, but they killed him off in the show. I guess I'll have Jorah Mormont do it instead."? Mind you, I'm not so much wondering whether he said it was okay to kill Rakharo, I'm more curious the extent to which he's sure/unsure what impact it will have in the future. I can't think of another instance in the show where a significant character who is still alive in A Dance with Dragons has already been killed.

[TiLT]

Relevant ruminations on much later books (some as yet unwritten):

Spoiler:

Really makes me wonder, does Martin sign off on this up front, saying, "I'm absolutely positive that Rakharo/Jhogo will play no pivotal role in any of the remaining novels, so go ahead and off him."? Or does he get to a point later on where he says, "Hmm, Rakharo/Jhogo needs to come flying into King's Landing on a dragon and nuke the place, but they killed him off in the show. I guess I'll have Jorah Mormont do it instead."? Mind you, I'm not so much wondering whether he said it was okay to kill Rakharo, I'm more curious the extent to which he's sure/unsure what impact it will have in the future. I can't think of another instance in the show where a significant character who is still alive in A Dance with Dragons has already been killed.

Spoiler:

Another of Khal Drogo's men was killed (by Drogo himself) last season, when he was supposed to live. George R. R. Martin pointed this out to them afterwards I believe, and noted that this particular character gets a bigger role in The Winds of Winter. These aren't major characters however, and they can be replaced with other parts later. The one who was killed last season can easily be replaced with a random Dothraki when and if the show gets to book 6, for example.

[hepcat]

I was afraid last night's episode wouldn't feature any new cases of incest, but thankfully they threw in some before the hour was up.

[dedewhale]

I thought last nights episode was well done...they really managed the jumping of story lines with continuity and that they are setting up adding new storylines and characters in a way I wont feel shortchanged on old stories. It could change as we move on but for now...good

[Zaxxon]

As MHS says, this version of Stannis is wantonly cheating on his wife. That's a very different man than the guy we saw in the novels, and we're talking about the actual core of his character, not just some ancillary attribute like "in the books he liked pie, but in the show he seems to prefer cake."

I'll have to focus on this in my next re-read, but I don't see it that way. Wantonly does not equal openly, and all we know in the books is that he wasn't doing it openly. Neither Melisandre nor Stannis was a viewpoint character at this point, so we don't know whether this is a change or not. What we do know (or at least I'm very confident of) is

Spoiler:

that Big Red and Stannis were getting it on in the books, and they're doing so here, too. After thinking about the scene some more, I do agree that Stannis seemed to give in a bit more quickly than I would have thought, and that the line about her providing him a son made no sense, either. I mean it's not like that son could possibly actually serve as heir, right? Stannis is the one condemning Joffrey, after all. Doesn't make sense for that line to be the one that makes him go all 'pants on the floor'.

I'm confused by Zach's comment about Rakharo/Jhogo. They both exist in the books, it's just that much of the Jhogo character has been transposed into Rakharo. They're both supposed to be alive at this point, however.

Yes, I confused myself. My point was more that the Rakharo of the show is already a changed character and as such had already diverged from the books.

Spoiler:

Perhaps DB/D's plan is that by season 6, Dany and her dragons are all that's left. In any case, I don't like the death of an eventual Queensguard.

Relevant ruminations on much later books (some as yet unwritten):

Spoiler:

Really makes me wonder, does Martin sign off on this up front, saying, "I'm absolutely positive that Rakharo/Jhogo will play no pivotal role in any of the remaining novels, so go ahead and off him."? Or does he get to a point later on where he says, "Hmm, Rakharo/Jhogo needs to come flying into King's Landing on a dragon and nuke the place, but they killed him off in the show. I guess I'll have Jorah Mormont do it instead."? Mind you, I'm not so much wondering whether he said it was okay to kill Rakharo, I'm more curious the extent to which he's sure/unsure what impact it will have in the future. I can't think of another instance in the show where a significant character who is still alive in A Dance with Dragons has already been killed.

Yeah, I'm not sure how deep GRRM's insights go, either. I hope (and think, based on the respect they give to the source in every interview I see) that DB/D run these changes past GRRM and at least get his thoughts if not his absolute approval. Not sure whether that's actually the case or they just have great showmanship.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

I had no problem with Stannis and Melisandre since I think the books made it fairly clear they were getting it on. And since we know that [spoiler for future events]

Spoiler:

Melisandre is going to birth a shadow baby soon, it makes sense to show them hooking up now.

My favorite scene in the episode was the confrontation between Tyrion and Circe. In fact, my favorite scenes from both episodes have been Tyrion and Circe alone together. The hate between the two is palatable.

[Daveman]

Circe.

Everyone who's read the books is cringing right now

[Zaxxon]

My favorite scene in the episode was the confrontation between Tyrion and Circe. In fact, my favorite scenes from both episodes have been Tyrion and Circe alone together. The hate between the two is palatable.

I agree. Although I have to also mention that the change in that scene irked me.

Spoiler:

Joffrey didn't order the killings--Cersei did. I think they're trying a little too hard to show how big a douche Joffrey is, and not enough to show how ruthless Cersei is.

[coopasonic]

I had no problem with Stannis and Melisandre since I think the books made it fairly clear they were getting it on. And since we know that [spoiler for future events]

Spoiler:

Melisandre is going to birth a shadow baby soon, it makes sense to show them hooking up now.

My favorite scene in the episode was the confrontation between Tyrion and Circe. In fact, my favorite scenes from both episodes have been Tyrion and Circe alone together. The hate between the two is palatable.

Autocorrect?

=======================

Anyhow I'm glad I'm getting HBO free for the duration because I have it just for this show and if it keeps going like this I'm not going to watch much longer. The book is much, much better than the show this season. I thought the first season was excellent, but I'm finding myself bored with this one.

A big part of the change may be the tightness of the story in the first season, other than Daenerys the first season was more less one coherent story. Book two is "the scramble of would be kings" and the scrambling isn't working for me on the small screen. I'll rewatch it on HBOGO on the big screen and see if the extra info makes a difference, but I don't expect it will.

Color me disappointed.

[hepcat]

My favorite scene in the episode was the confrontation between Tyrion and Circe. In fact, my favorite scenes from both episodes have been Tyrion and Circe alone together. The hate between the two is palatable.

I agree. Although I have to also mention that the change in that scene irked me.

Spoiler:

Joffrey didn't order the killings--Cersei did. I think they're trying a little too hard to show how big a douche Joffrey is, and not enough to show how ruthless Cersei is.

I just picked up the ebooks and am about to start them, but I can definitely see where that's a pretty substantial change. I wonder why they felt it necessary to change it up so.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Circe.

Everyone who's read the books is cringing right now

The sad thing is that I've read all the books.

[Zaxxon]

Circe.

Everyone who's read the books is cringing right now

The sad thing is that I've read all the books.

Look, Ralf. It's an understandable mistake.

[hepcat]

Circe.

Everyone who's read the books is cringing right now

The sad thing is that I've read all the books.

...as well as The Odyssey, I'm guessing.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Circe.

Everyone who's read the books is cringing right now

The sad thing is that I've read all the books.

...as well as The Odyssey, I'm guessing.

I loved it when Circe turned Tyrion into a pig.

[Zaxxon]

I agree with most of Mo Ryan's recap. Not sure I buy the Stannis part, but I'm with her 100% on the Varys and Theon stuff.

[Toe]

Looks like they might have gotten rid of Shireen, Stannis's only child (the one with greyscale in the books). While it may be implied she is still around with Melisender saying " no sons, no duaghters, only still borns, and death", she is no longer on the family tree (she was in Season 1, but not in Season 2).