Game of Thrones - Season 2 Discussion

[Boudreaux]

I'll say again that I don't know how people who haven't read the books could enjoy the show. I don't think I could, because I would never feel like I was getting enough information about anything. Maybe that's only because I know what I'd be missing though.

My wife is watching with me, and she never read the books. She's enjoying the show well enough, but she has no idea who anyone is most of the time. She just refers to people with descriptions - "the dwarf", "the girl dressed as a boy", "the guy with the wolf", "the queen", "the bald guy", etc. Her main complaint is that they don't use people's names often enough, given that they're "weird fantasy names". In the first two episodes of Season 2 there was quite a bit going on with Melisandre, and yet I don't believe anyone ever actually said her name.

Right after watching episode 3, I mentioned that I thought they made Yoren a bit more of a badass than in the books. Naturally her response was "who's Yoren?". She would recognize Petyr Baelish, but she has no idea that his name is "Petyr Baelish", or probably even that his nickname is Littlefinger.

[Jag]

She would recognize Petyr Baelish, but she has no idea that his name is "Petyr Baelish", or probably even that his nickname is Littlefinger.

It's probably "the creepy guy with the whores" which is unfortunate since the whorehouses were more of a side income/base of operations than a main plotline.

[Exodor]

Interesting interview with the Creative Director of the firm that created the title sequence.

Also a nice interview with Richard Madden (Robb Stark)

[TiLT]

I'll say again that I don't know how people who haven't read the books could enjoy the show. I don't think I could, because I would never feel like I was getting enough information about anything. Maybe that's only because I know what I'd be missing though.

This show follows the philosophy of Lost in that it expects viewers to discuss the show with each other to get the most out of it. Lost was horribly convoluted and complex at times, which it did because it wanted people to discuss it with their friends and co-workers to figure out exactly what was going on (which was impossible anyway). Game of Thrones does a similar thing, but without being quite so obscure.

[Carpet_pissr]

I'll say again that I don't know how people who haven't read the books could enjoy the show. I don't think I could, because I would never feel like I was getting enough information about anything. Maybe that's only because I know what I'd be missing though.

This show follows the philosophy of Lost in that it expects viewers to discuss the show with each other to get the most out of it. Lost was horribly convoluted and complex at times, which it did because it wanted people to discuss it with their friends and co-workers to figure out exactly what was going on (which was impossible anyway). Game of Thrones does a similar thing, but without being quite so obscure.

Or maybe they expect people to pick up the books if they haven't.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

I've been watching the show with a number of people who haven't read the books and none of them seem lost or confused for the most part. I think it's more that those of us who read the books know that so much was left out that it makes us feel as if the non-readers couldn't possibly understand all the various plot lines going on. Obviously they won't know all the detailed background about certain events/actions, but I think the show is doing a great job of making the general plot easy enough to follow.

[Jag]

Great episode! That scene at the end was even more amazing that what I pictured when I read the book. Absolutely awesome cliffhanger though... I could almost hear all the non-book readers out there collectively yelling "What the fuck was that!?!".

Melisandre's vagina is dark and full of terror.

I also thought it was a great touch that Lancel was dressed in the same manner as Jaime. That made me laugh.

Lancel looked like he jumped into the wrong Fairy Tale!

[Roman]

I've been watching the show with a number of people who haven't read the books and none of them seem lost or confused for the most part. I think it's more that those of us who read the books know that so much was left out that it makes us feel as if the non-readers couldn't possibly understand all the various plot lines going on. Obviously they won't know all the detailed background about certain events/actions, but I think the show is doing a great job of making the general plot easy enough to follow.

+1.
I read what I can from here, GT and Wiki. From there I get all I 'want' to read. Key thing here is want. I already know that I could read the books for more backstory and perhaps a greater appreciation for what I watch on a weekly basis. But - meh.

I like cheese - but I don't need to know everything about it to make it better.

[naednek]

I know it's a petty complaint, but man really, 7 minutes for the "previously on Game of Thrones" and the intro? Seems excessive, the previously portion isn't that bad, less than 2 minutes, but the intro is about 5 minutes long. Feels like they could just shorten that and then add in an extra scene in each episode.

[hepcat]

I was pleased to find out the queen is slowly working her way off sleeping with immediate family members by letting her cousin roger her roundly. Baby steps and all that.

[Carpet_pissr]

I know it's a petty complaint, but man really, 7 minutes for the "previously on Game of Thrones" and the intro? Seems excessive, the previously portion isn't that bad, less than 2 minutes, but the intro is about 5 minutes long. Feels like they could just shorten that and then add in an extra scene in each episode.

At least for the HBO shows I have watched, this is typical (and I agree, annoying). Band of Brothers had a heinously long intro, as did Rome (but not as bad as the other two I think). Feels like filler to me personally, but I know nothing, Carpet Pisser.

[TiLT]

Unlike most other shows though, the Game of Thrones intro isn't filler. It's vitally important in order to convey a sense of geography and scale to the story, by letting us know where exactly in the world the current events are taking place.

[Turtle]

I'll say again that I don't know how people who haven't read the books could enjoy the show. I don't think I could, because I would never feel like I was getting enough information about anything. Maybe that's only because I know what I'd be missing though.

This show follows the philosophy of Lost in that it expects viewers to discuss the show with each other to get the most out of it. Lost was horribly convoluted and complex at times, which it did because it wanted people to discuss it with their friends and co-workers to figure out exactly what was going on (which was impossible anyway). Game of Thrones does a similar thing, but without being quite so obscure.

I both disagree and agree. Lost used viewer discussion as a crutch when they really had no idea where they were going, nor were the things they did all that deep. They relied on vagueness to fool viewers into coming up with deeper meaning while they worked on making up a different meaning.

Game of Thrones discussion, on the other hand, is discussing more solid events and characterization that is often paid off in full later. Discussion about game of thrones leads to answers that lay within the show and books, meanwhile discussion of Lost just led nowhere.

There's a lot to the world of Game of Thones, and it can be confusing, but it's only season 2 and you're missing a lot of the extra wording you would get in the novel. But what's there is solid underneath the smoke and mirrors.

[Toe]

Unlike most other shows though, the Game of Thrones intro isn't filler. It's vitally important in order to convey a sense of geography and scale to the story, by letting us know where exactly in the world the current events are taking place.

I don't think it is "vitally important" just because they add a new country every now and then to the map. I bet the vast majority of viewers have no clue that its different from the previous weeks.

[Odin]

Unlike most other shows though, the Game of Thrones intro isn't filler. It's vitally important in order to convey a sense of geography and scale to the story, by letting us know where exactly in the world the current events are taking place.

I don't think it is "vitally important" just because they add a new country every now and then to the map. I bet the vast majority of viewers have no clue that its different from the previous weeks.

Or that Dragonstone correlates to "that place where the red-headed woman whose name I don't know slept with that grumpy older guy who wants to be king." I think it's very easy for those who have read the books to give that intro greater value than it really has. It's there primarily for us and for those who like to analyze every second of the show in detail. For the average viewer, it's simply visually appealing with nice music.

[Zaxxon]

On another note, the intro doesn't directly take time from the show. Unlike most shows, HBO shows don't need to ascribe to a specific 'V minutes for act 1, W commercials, X for act 2, Y commercials, Z for act 3, etc'. The shows are 49-56 or so minutes long, and HBO uses the remaining time in various ways (long recap intros, previews of new or upcoming shows, HBO Go pitches, etc). So I wouldn't worry that we've got a long intro and therefore Moon Boy gets cut out.

[Odin]

On another note, the intro doesn't directly take time from the show. Unlike most shows, HBO shows don't need to ascribe to a specific 'V minutes for act 1, W commercials, X for act 2, Y commercials, Z for act 3, etc'. The shows are 49-56 or so minutes long, and HBO uses the remaining time in various ways (long recap intros, previews of new or upcoming shows, HBO Go pitches, etc). So I wouldn't worry that we've got a long intro and therefore Moon Boy gets cut out.

Moon boy's fine. But if they cut Butterbumps, there's going to be trouble!!!

[Exodor]

Unlike most other shows though, the Game of Thrones intro isn't filler. It's vitally important in order to convey a sense of geography and scale to the story, by letting us know where exactly in the world the current events are taking place.

I don't think it is "vitally important" just because they add a new country every now and then to the map. I bet the vast majority of viewers have no clue that its different from the previous weeks.

Are we really bitching about the amazing 90 second map title sequence?

[Toe]

Unlike most other shows though, the Game of Thrones intro isn't filler. It's vitally important in order to convey a sense of geography and scale to the story, by letting us know where exactly in the world the current events are taking place.

I don't think it is "vitally important" just because they add a new country every now and then to the map. I bet the vast majority of viewers have no clue that its different from the previous weeks.

Are we really bitching about the amazing 90 second map title sequence?

Bitching? Nope, not really. Just disagreeing with Tilt that the intro is vitally important to the show. Nothing to see here, move along.

[Carpet_pissr]

Are we really bitching about the amazing 90 second map title sequence?

Good point. It IS spectacular, creative, beautiful (including the awesome music), etc., and I appreciate it. But given the length, my fear was that they were somehow using it to fill up their time slot, which to me seems kinda crazy given the fact that they are having to cut so much from the book to fit it in. I'll put it this way, when I watch the recorded version, the first thing I do is to FF through the intro, as beautiful and sexy as it is. It's only 90 seconds? Feels like an eternity!

Speaking of that, why not make this a long, protracted, multi season regular show instead of a "special"?

There is soooo much content here, and so much that was cut, that I think you could go on for at least as long as it takes Martin to write the next book (if you can keep the viewership).

[Exodor]

It's only 90 seconds? Feels like an eternity!

yep

It's really too bad the sequence is only 90 seconds long, because there's so much detail we were not able to show. If you're going to create a world, in order for it to feel legit, you have to have this fractal sense of detail. There are dust motes in the air when you're passing through, and all the cogs have a logic to them. There are cogs actually under the surface of the map that you can barely see in the gaps between the model and the surfaces of the world itself. There's such an amazing amount of detail in the models.

I think it's one of the best title sequences I've ever seen. It does a great job of introducing the viewer to a new world and showing the relationships between the locations. It's also freaking beautiful.

I do agree that the "previously on..." collection of scenes seemed overly long this week - but that may be because I watch each episode twice, once on HBO and once on HBOGo with the supplemental info which generally tells me everything I need to know anyway.

[Jag]

I think it's one of the best title sequences I've ever seen.

No. THIS is the best title sequence.

[Carpet_pissr]

As mentioned above, as beautiful and intricate as the intro/map is, I bet the meaning is lost on 90%+ of non book readers. Hell, even for me, it's whizzing by so fast that you have precious little time to even get your bearings (and I have pored over static maps of Westeros), much less study and absorb it, and garner actual meaning.

Which is why I don't think it's an EFFECTIVE intro for any kind of back story, or helpful in deciphering plot lines. It's PERFECT for something like extra content online, where you can zoom in, read some descriptions, and have the time to put 2+2 together. "Ahhh, THAT's where Dany is in relation to the battles raging on the mainland!"

As it is, it's beautiful eye candy (which is completely fine by me, I just doubt it helps anyone with getting a handle on the story lines).

Someone made a great suggestion earlier that I think would be much more effective in "educating" the viewer as to Westeros geography...simple descriptive text at the bottom of each new scene, i.e. "Harrenhall Castle, Riverlands, Seat of...(Lord Baelish?)" or even more: "Storm's End: Camp of Renly Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End and Contender to the Iron Throne"

Lots of possibilities that I think would only help the viewer keep up, without detracting (it's not like these details are some mystery to be revealed, and would ruin any surprises).

[naednek]

It's only 90 seconds? Feels like an eternity!

yep

It's really too bad the sequence is only 90 seconds long, because there's so much detail we were not able to show. If you're going to create a world, in order for it to feel legit, you have to have this fractal sense of detail. There are dust motes in the air when you're passing through, and all the cogs have a logic to them. There are cogs actually under the surface of the map that you can barely see in the gaps between the model and the surfaces of the world itself. There's such an amazing amount of detail in the models.

I think it's one of the best title sequences I've ever seen. It does a great job of introducing the viewer to a new world and showing the relationships between the locations. It's also freaking beautiful.

I do agree that the "previously on..." collection of scenes seemed overly long this week - but that may be because I watch each episode twice, once on HBO and once on HBOGo with the supplemental info which generally tells me everything I need to know anyway.

Except it's nearly 4 minutes long (not counting the "previously")... Last Sunday's intro started at 2:07 and ended at 6:03. I didn't realize they add in new locations throughout the series, that's cool, but not really needed.

[Exodor]

Except it's nearly 4 minutes long (not counting the "previously")... Last Sunday's intro started at 2:07 and ended at 6:03. I didn't realize they add in new locations throughout the series, that's cool, but not really needed.

The map sequence is 4 minutes long?!

I'll have to pay attention when I re-watch Sunday's episode.

[TiLT]

Except it's nearly 4 minutes long (not counting the "previously")... Last Sunday's intro started at 2:07 and ended at 6:03. I didn't realize they add in new locations throughout the series, that's cool, but not really needed.

Let's stick to the facts, please. Last night's intro lasts roughly 1:46. It's hard for them to push it any further considering the static length of the 1:46 theme song.

[naednek]

Except it's nearly 4 minutes long (not counting the "previously")... Last Sunday's intro started at 2:07 and ended at 6:03. I didn't realize they add in new locations throughout the series, that's cool, but not really needed.

The map sequence is 4 minutes long?!

I'll have to pay attention when I re-watch Sunday's episode.

Assuming it's like that every episode. I noticed it being long the last two weeks. It's not a big deal, it just feels like we could shortened that and get more scenes added. The last 4 episodes have been 54 minutes each. Which is pretty standard for an HBO show.

[Odin]

Except it's nearly 4 minutes long (not counting the "previously")... Last Sunday's intro started at 2:07 and ended at 6:03. I didn't realize they add in new locations throughout the series, that's cool, but not really needed.

The map sequence is 4 minutes long?!

I'll have to pay attention when I re-watch Sunday's episode.

I think people are getting confused between the opening theme (the map sequence with the cool music) and the "Previously, on Game of Thrones" recap of prior episodes. Whenever somebody writes "Intro," half of us take it to mean one, half take it to mean the other, and the third half assume it's both combined.

[naednek]

Except it's nearly 4 minutes long (not counting the "previously")... Last Sunday's intro started at 2:07 and ended at 6:03. I didn't realize they add in new locations throughout the series, that's cool, but not really needed.

The map sequence is 4 minutes long?!

I'll have to pay attention when I re-watch Sunday's episode.

I think people are getting confused between the opening theme (the map sequence with the cool music) and the "Previously, on Game of Thrones" recap of prior episodes. Whenever somebody writes "Intro," half of us take it to mean one, half take it to mean the other, and the third half assume it's both combined.

except that I addressed that twice when explaining (even in your quote of my comment). But I just found out why I thought it was 4 minutes long.... My video encoder wasn't displaying it correctly. I timed with with a stop watch and it's 1:48 long. I even had pictures ready to go for Tilt showing the facts, and I thought lets just time it the old fashion way...

So I retract my complaint, the intro and the previously on features are not excessive.
I'm just going to stop posting now.

[Odin]

I think people are getting confused between the opening theme (the map sequence with the cool music) and the "Previously, on Game of Thrones" recap of prior episodes. Whenever somebody writes "Intro," half of us take it to mean one, half take it to mean the other, and the third half assume it's both combined.

except that I addressed that twice when explaining (even in your quote of my comment). But I just found out why I thought it was 4 minutes long.... My video encoder wasn't displaying it correctly. I timed with with a stop watch and it's 1:48 long. I even had pictures ready to go for Tilt showing the facts, and I thought lets just time it the old fashion way...

Honestly, your attempts to qualify the part of the show you were talking about just confused me more. If somebody had asked me how long the intro/theme of GoT was, I'd have guessed 75-90 seconds. When you indicated that it was 4 minutes long, that baffled me - you were either off by orders of magnitude, or you were talking about something different than I was. If it helps, though, I think other people were intermixing/confusing the two as well, so I wasn't directing my comments solely at you.

I do think it takes arguing on the internet to new levels when you actually break out the stopwatch.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

A new Game of Thrones poster that boils down the most important part of each episode (spoilered because slightly NSFW):

Spoiler:

[Zekester]

There's usually three or four of us that watch this together every week, and none of us have read the books. We are a bit confused from time to time, and feel this season is plodding along pretty slowly.....but we still can't wait to see it every time.

Just a couple of the many questions we have:

-why did the guy stop Sansa(?) from pushing Joffrey off the elevated walkway when she had the chance?
-what's stopping pretty much anyone from just stealing the little dragons, and when are we gonna see the little bad-asses in action?? lol
-who is this red-haired seductress? They kind of just threw her in there without much of an explanation.

The opening fly-over scene is awesome along with the music. We all pretty much think it's just showing the relation of each kingdom to each other, but is there more to it than that?

.

[Isgrimnur]

-why did the guy stop Sansa(?) from pushing Joffrey off the elevated walkway when she had the chance?

Season 1 Episode 10? That's the Hound, and he's Joffrey's bodyguard. If you're talking Season 2, I have no idea.

-who is this red-haired seductress? They kind of just threw her in there without much of an explanation.

Melisandre, Red Priestess of R'hllor, the Lord of Light. As with our own world, religious people tend to attach themselves to people with temporal power to further their own goals.

[MHS]

T

-why did the guy stop Sansa(?) from pushing Joffrey off the elevated walkway when she had the chance?

The Hound is Joff's own personal bodyguard. He has a weird sort of twisted crush on Sansa, but that wouldn't extend far enough to allow her to kill his king, especially since she'd be killed for doing so, and he'd be killed if he tried to protect her.

[Zekester]

then the Hound is more of a "rented" bodyguard? cause he seemed to be pretty understanding of Sansa's almost-push.

[MHS]

then the Hound is more of a "rented" bodyguard? cause he seemed to be pretty understanding of Sansa's almost-push.

Not exactly. His house is loyal to the Lannisters, but he's not a knight and the Lannisters have never made a secret that they consider him a loyal dog and nothing else...good for killing but basically human scum. His understanding of Sansa's hatred of Joffrey would stem from a) basic human observation- Joff's a prick, b) his crush on her, and c) his general resentment of everyone around him.

[MHS]

-what's stopping pretty much anyone from just stealing the little dragons, and when are we gonna see the little bad-asses in action?? lol

Presumably the dragons themselves- they are attached to Dany (which the show doesn't illustrate as much as the books- she physically nursed them in the books) as well as her blood riders. It does seem like someone would at least make an attempt, so I don't have a great answer for this. And they need to grow bigger than cat-size before they'll be interesting in action. You will definitely see some interesting stuff with them this season though.

-who is this red-haired seductress? They kind of just threw her in there without much of an explanation.

As Isgrimnur said, she's a red priestess. She's seen the future and believes that Stannis is a re-born hero who will save the world from a coming darkness- the ultimate battle of good versus evil, in her eyes.

All just my own interpretations, btw. I don't read the internet back stories or get into it the way some people do, so take anything I make as a supposition with a grain of salt.

[Toe]

[Odin]

-what's stopping pretty much anyone from just stealing the little dragons, and when are we gonna see the little bad-asses in action?? lol

Presumably the dragons themselves- they are attached to Dany (which the show doesn't illustrate as much as the books- she physically nursed them in the books) as well as her blood riders. It does seem like someone would at least make an attempt, so I don't have a great answer for this. And they need to grow bigger than cat-size before they'll be interesting in action. You will definitely see some interesting stuff with them this season though.

Actually, at this point in time it's more that almost nobody knows about them and even fewer are inclined to believe they exist. It would be akin to somebody in our society claiming to have tinkerbell in their pocket. We wouldn't bother trying to steal her unless/until we had some reason to believe she actually existed.

That said, if somebody right now did want to snatch them, they'd have relatively little resistance. Xaro Xhoan Daxos might trouble himself to try to stop them, and they'd have to get through Ser Jorah Mormont and Dany's bloodriders, but any significantly-sized force of arms could easily do so. Right now, no such force a) knows they exist and b) knows where they are and c) believes they're real.

[Zaxxon]

What Odin said.

I realized I hadn't actually mentioned my feelings on the episode... I thought it was a let-down after the awesome sauce that was episode 13. Seemed like the majority of this episode was divergent from the books, and not in ways I see the benefit to [yet].

Not really big spoilers but just in case

Spoiler:

A couple of examples would be :

-The Joffrey whores scene. AKA the 'Yes Joffrey got some whores in the book but let's see how about we make super-duper sure everyone on the planet is completely aware of the fact that TV show Joffrey is just the biggest douchenozzle ever to take a breath. I mean let's be super sure. He's been a dick so far, but let's just kick it up one more level and make suresies that even the densest viewer hates his guts on a visceral level.' scene.

-The 'Robb fell for a minor lord's daughter in the books but that's too believable, let's make him fall for a commoner! From the East!' scene.

-The 'instead of Jhogo returning with Pyat, Xaro and Quaithe offering entrance into Quarth, let's have a ridiculous scene where the Thirteen all exit the walls of Quarth and get threatened by a small girl with cat-dragons before Xaro decides to cut himself and then everyone heads inside' scene. WTF?