Mitt Romney: Bully?

[Rip]

can we get off the violent hair cutting? i'm not gonna be able to sleep for weeks as it is.

Don't worry, you can always get another weave!

[Defiant]

I'm sure everyone here was an absolute saint at the age of 14-17.

If it matters, he was 18 when the incident happened.

[Defiant]

can we get off the violent hair cutting? i'm not gonna be able to sleep for weeks as it is.

Not to worry, there's more than one way to skin a... never mind.

[Chrisoc13]

Or on the other hand he could be telling the truth. Maybe he doesn't remember the alleged incident.

That's not comforting to me.

Look first you said other teenagers you give a pass to because of their biology but someone running for President you judge high school for them. Then his apology was a "lie." Now if it isn't a lie you aren't happy with it. I get it, you don't like him, that's fine and dandy.

I could also be argued that you are biased on the matter .

Indeed much like each of us are. I said as much in a response to LordMortis:

Our perception of Mitt Romney clouds our judgement of the situation just like it does for every politician.

Which is why we should be careful when throwing inflammatory bombs around about people we ideologically disagree with.

I did some really fucked up things as a teenager, but I never intentionally hurt someone and definitely never used a gang to physically assault someone because they were different. I just wasn't raised that way. Maybe Mitt was.

I call bullshit on his 'inability' to remember it and it ABSOLUTELY says something about his character. Which is unfortunate because I'm no Obama fan either.

Maybe not with physical actions, but how many here honestly think bullying is only a physical issue? Look these days we are far more attune to physical violence in schools. I hear my dad tell stories of high school and it seems like fights were a normal thing. His entire football team once waited in the parking lot for the other team, these kinds of things just don't happen very often today because we drive it in at a young age that physical violence is wrong. But this hasn't stopped the bullying, it has only found other avenues. Sadly this is not isolated behavior amongst adolescent youth.

That doesn't make this situation right, and it doesn't make it ok. I don't condone it. But I can honestly say in my past I did some things I am not proud of. I ostracized other kids. I picked on kids. I was mean to other kids. I talked about kids behind their back. And I wasn't even popular! I was a nerdy left-over. I think very few of us can honestly say they had a "clean" junior high and high school experience. Part of the explanation for that is biology. Part of it is culture. Just because we didn't do exactly what Mitt allegedly did doesn't mean we don't have other equally damaging skeletons in our closets, some of which we probably don't even know the full implications of.

This incident in no way makes Mitt Romney less qualified to be President of the United States. It in no way changes who he is today. He is in his 60s and those opposing him have to go all the way back to high school to find something on this level that he did to hurt someone else? That sounds like 48 years of clean living, 48 years of proof that he is a different man today than the kid who pinned that kid down and cut his hair. If 48 years of a life lived contradictory to this example are not enough to show a change and maturation in a person I don't know what is.

Quite honestly we aren't being asked to choose whether 16 year old Mitt Romney would be a better leader of our country than 16 year old President Obama. To think that either man is the same now as they were when they were 16 is a ridiculous presumption. Biology says they are not. Life experience says they are not. Common sense says they are not.

[Chrisoc13]

I'm sure everyone here was an absolute saint at the age of 14-17.

If it matters, he was 18 when the incident happened.

It doesn't, see the article I posted on brain development.

[Ænima]

I could also be argued that you are biased on the matter .

Indeed much like each of us are. I said as much in a response to LordMortis:

Our perception of Mitt Romney clouds our judgement of the situation just like it does for every politician.

Which is why we should be careful when throwing inflammatory bombs around about people we ideologically disagree with.

Or, you're biased when it comes to Mormons running for president, and you are justifying something completely ridiculous based on your bias. I couldn't care less if it's Romney, Obama, Paul, or Nader. If someone can't remember bullying someone in school, they are either a liar, or someone without much of a conscience. Either way, it's despicable.

[noxiousdog]

Or, you're biased when it comes to Mormons running for president, and you are justifying something completely ridiculous based on your bias. I couldn't care less if it's Romney, Obama, Paul, or Nader. If someone can't remember bullying someone in school, they are either a liar, or someone without much of a conscience. Either way, it's despicable.

Or it was a completely unremarkable occurance. The man was in high school -50- years ago. It wasn't until the 90s that hazing became forbidden.

I certainly don't condone it, but stories like that are pretty common. Doesn't it happen in like every 80's high school movie, and that's 20 years after Romney went.

[Chrisoc13]

Or, you're biased when it comes to Mormons running for president, and you are justifying something completely ridiculous based on your bias. I couldn't care less if it's Romney, Obama, Paul, or Nader. If someone can't remember bullying someone in school, they are either a liar, or someone without much of a conscience. Either way, it's despicable.

That's a fair point, but he isn't the first Mormon to run for President and this isn't the first time he has run, yet this is the first time I have fully supported a Mormon for president or him specifically. While religion is very important to me I do not plan to elect a theologian in chief, but a commander in chief. I certainly can relate to him more because we share a common faith and because I see his work as a missionary, a Bishop, and Stake President as indication of a man who will give for anyone. Having been an LDS missionary myself and being very acquainted with the workings of church leadership positions I know the kind of time and commitment to service these positions take. I can understand him better due to our mutual faith. But his faith is by no means a reason I would vote for him. It more serves as a window into who he actually is.

Truth be told I am far more socially liberal than the Republican party or Mitt Romney or for that matter most Mormons. It is more his economic principles that I agree with. Lucky for me I don't care about social issues that much so I generally worry about economic and foreign issues more in political campaigns.

Also important is to note that I never condoned his actions, in fact I have stated very clearly that my opinion is those actions are despicable. My statement is equally clear that I do not believe that high school kid is the same person who is now running for office. I have given evidence of this from a biological standpoint and simply argued that in my own experience I am not the same person I was (anecdotal as this evidence may be). But I also don't think I should eliminate him as a candidate for something he did half a century ago. Something he may have already cleared up. Something he may have already fixed. My guess is if he truly is a changed person he faced that demon of how he treated people when in high school a long, long time ago. Now that it is public he has to make a public apology. And he has.

[msduncan]

I did some really fucked up things as a teenager, but I never intentionally hurt someone and definitely never used a gang to physically assault someone because they were different. I just wasn't raised that way. Maybe Mitt was.

I call bullshit on his 'inability' to remember it and it ABSOLUTELY says something about his character. Which is unfortunate because I'm no Obama fan either.

Smoked but didn't inhale....
Won a ton of purple hearts for opening doors for people...
Hung out with racists and marxist activists, but is totally moderate all American...

We can do this all day. I did some stupid stuff and had stupid ideas when I was 18 too...George Wallace was an out and out racist in the 1960s, but by the time of his death had done a huge amount of work to make amends for that misguided and terrible philosophy.

[Rip]

I remember this kid in school that rode my bus, he was a bit of a bully and used to antagonize me. He started flipping me with his comb in gym class while we were setting on the bleachers. I jumped his ass and put him in a headlock from hell and proceeded to do my best to rip off his head. The I began to tease him on a regular basis about the size of his ear. Thereby gaining me somewhat of a rep.

Am I a bully?

Did I lose any votes for prez?

Edit to note; NO HAIR WAS LOST!

[LawBeefaroni]

I remember this kid in school that rode my bus, he was a bit of a bully and used to antagonize me. He started flipping me with his comb in gym class while we were setting on the bleachers. I jumped his ass and put him in a headlock from hell and proceeded to do my best to rip off his head. The I began to tease him on a regular basis about the size of his ear. Thereby gaining me somewhat of a rep.

Am I a bully?

Did I lose any votes for prez?

Edit to note; NO HAIR WAS LOST!

You remember it? No candidacy for you.

[msduncan]

I remember this kid in school that rode my bus, he was a bit of a bully and used to antagonize me. He started flipping me with his comb in gym class while we were setting on the bleachers. I jumped his ass and put him in a headlock from hell and proceeded to do my best to rip off his head. The I began to tease him on a regular basis about the size of his ear. Thereby gaining me somewhat of a rep.

Am I a bully?

Did I lose any votes for prez?

Edit to note; NO HAIR WAS LOST!

Had a dude in my High School that always got in trouble with the teachers. He was the guy always getting into fights. By the time he got into the 11th and 12th grades, he had evolved into a guy that jumped on others for picking on others. Ran into him 6 months after graduation and he had enlisted in the US Marines.

So yeah... someone from his middle school years could easily step forward and call him a douche but never had realized he'd changed by the time he graduated and then joined the Marines.

[Rip]

I remember this kid in school that rode my bus, he was a bit of a bully and used to antagonize me. He started flipping me with his comb in gym class while we were setting on the bleachers. I jumped his ass and put him in a headlock from hell and proceeded to do my best to rip off his head. The I began to tease him on a regular basis about the size of his ear. Thereby gaining me somewhat of a rep.

Am I a bully?

Did I lose any votes for prez?

Edit to note; NO HAIR WAS LOST!

You remember it? No candidacy for you.

Like it was yesterday and I was in like 7th or 8th grade.

Of course I am not filthy rich nor have I changed most of my political stances multiple times, so I have a lot less to remember than Mitt. If I were him I would probably struggle remembering all my Swiss bank account numbers.

[Combustible Lemur]

Or, you're biased when it comes to Mormons running for president, and you are justifying something completely ridiculous based on your bias. I couldn't care less if it's Romney, Obama, Paul, or Nader. If someone can't remember bullying someone in school, they are either a liar, or someone without much of a conscience. Either way, it's despicable.

Or it was a completely unremarkable occurance. The man was in high school -50- years ago. It wasn't until the 90s that hazing became forbidden.

I certainly don't condone it, but stories like that are pretty common. Doesn't it happen in like every 80's high school movie, and that's 20 years after Romney went.

As much as I dislike it I see it some what this way.

OTOh

Didn't Romney make a career out of dismantling businesses and laying off other people? And come out and say he enjoyed being able to fire people. pattern of behavior anyone?

[Chrisoc13]

I call bullshit on his 'inability' to remember it and it ABSOLUTELY says something about his character. Which is unfortunate because I'm no Obama fan either.

I'd be willing to bet that if the guy instead claimed that Romney climbed on top of him and started dry-humping him, Mitt would correct him with stunningly vivid recollections of the actual hair-cutting.

Unless his not remembering it means it didn't actually happen.

[Anonymous Bosch]

According to the American Psychological Association, approximately "40% to 80% of school-age children experience bullying at some point during their school careers".

It's interesting that with so many children experiencing bullying at some point during their schooling, adults rarely ever cop to actually having been a bully. I honestly do not believe that I have ever met an adult that admitted to being a bully as a school child.

[ichbinunique]

According to the American Psychological Association, approximately "40% to 80% of school-age children experience bullying at some point during their school careers".

It's interesting that with so many children experiencing bullying at some point during their schooling, adults rarely ever cop to actually having been a bully. I honestly do not believe that I have ever met an adult that admitted to being a bully as a school child.

I think it's probably because nobody who engages in bullying really thought of it that way at the time, and so they don't remember it as bullying. Some quick introspection turns up some bullying I engaged in during middle school, but at the time I really just thought of it as the only way to deal with a kid who really annoyed the crap out of me. Since that's how I thought of it, that's how I remember it.

[silverjon]

Bullies also frequently pick on more than one kid, whether it's a mean girl clique lording it over whoever they've decided isn't cool that week, only to switch it up the following week, or one guy who terrorizes the entire school.

[Kraken]

Being a 98-pound nerd I was near the bottom of the natural pecking order, and I took the expected lumps for that. However, I was merciless to the few kids who were below me. Everybody has a part to play in the dominance hierarchy. It's a primate thing.

Mitt must have been near the top of the chain. Even if he was not a prime physical specimen himself, he would have had hired goons.

[Zarathud]

This incident might have less meaning if (a) Mitt wasn't running as Bully-in-Chief by pandering to the anti-gay, anti-immigrant, anti-secular wing of the Republican Party and (b) the conservative Talking Points weren't bending over backward over the slightest possibility that Obama might be a closet anti-White socialist Muslim who eats dog.

You cannot complain once you play the silly season.

[Combustible Lemur]

This incident might have less meaning if (a) Mitt wasn't running as Bully-in-Chief by pandering to the anti-gay, anti-immigrant, anti-secular wing of the Republican Party and (b) the conservative Talking Points weren't bending over backward over the slightest possibility that Obama might be a closet anti-White socialist Muslim who eats dog.

You cannot complain once you play the silly season.

Well said.

Sent from mah Incredible'

[Alefroth]

Looking back on who I was at 21, if I met that person today, I'd want to kick my own ass.

Maybe you're still developing

Ale

[Alefroth]

"I don't remember that incident,"

"I participated in a lot of hijinks and pranks during high school and some may have gone too far. And for that I apologize,"

That's not even feigned remorse for being a stupid and malicious teenager.

Or on the other hand he could be telling the truth. Maybe he doesn't remember the alleged incident. You will see here what you want to see. You see a liar squirming, I see someone who has changed a great deal since then but someone who has already dealt with his past perhaps even personally apologizing to people he remembers he hurt now having to apologize en mass in public because is running for office. Our perception of Mitt Romney clouds our judgement of the situation just like it does for every politician.

I get that he was a teenager, and honestly if I were inclined to vote for him this probably wouldn't stop me (unless it seemed like it was part of a broader pattern, or continued beyond high school, etc.). But that said...while high school kids are idiots, I'm not sure leading an assault on someone and cutting their hair while they are crying to help is really all that common. I'm not sure "undeveloped frontal lobes" is really an adequate excuse, since most high school kids manage to not assault crying peers despite their inadequate lobes (and now I'm picturing Quark saying this line).

I think it is more common than people think. Maybe not physical assault, but plenty of high school kids cry because verbal and emotional assault which can be just as devastating on the bullied child. Now with cyberbullying it is actually reaching new levels of problems. This alleged incident was physical bullying, and downright sad too, but sadly bullying in our high schools now is much deeper than this and can be every bit as scarring.

I think you're just seeing what you want to see, as well. Why do you see someone that has changed a great deal?

Ale

[Alefroth]

I remember this kid in school that rode my bus, he was a bit of a bully and used to antagonize me. He started flipping me with his comb in gym class while we were setting on the bleachers. I jumped his ass and put him in a headlock from hell and proceeded to do my best to rip off his head. The I began to tease him on a regular basis about the size of his ear. Thereby gaining me somewhat of a rep.

Am I a bully?

Did I lose any votes for prez?

Edit to note; NO HAIR WAS LOST!

Who felt threatened first?

Ale

[Alefroth]

Being a 98-pound nerd I was near the bottom of the natural pecking order, and I took the expected lumps for that. However, I was merciless to the few kids who were below me. Everybody has a part to play in the dominance hierarchy. It's a primate thing.

Mitt must have been near the top of the chain. Even if he was not a prime physical specimen himself, he would have had hired goons.

Exactly my experience also.

Ale

[Defiant]

According to the American Psychological Association, approximately "40% to 80% of school-age children experience bullying at some point during their school careers".

It's interesting that with so many children experiencing bullying at some point during their schooling, adults rarely ever cop to actually having been a bully. I honestly do not believe that I have ever met an adult that admitted to being a bully as a school child.

As was stated, bullies can pick on more than one kid. Additionally, certain types of bullying may not be recognized as such. Someone using slurs and epithets -not even directed at the victim - may be considered bullying (eg, gay students will hear a couple of dozen anti-gay slurs every day). Excluding others (I don't want jimmy to join my team) or gossiping about them behind their back.

[Defiant]

Had a dude in my High School that always got in trouble with the teachers. He was the guy always getting into fights. By the time he got into the 11th and 12th grades, he had evolved into a guy that jumped on others for picking on others. Ran into him 6 months after graduation and he had enlisted in the US Marines.

So yeah... someone from his middle school years could easily step forward and call him a douche but never had realized he'd changed by the time he graduated and then joined the Marines.

People can change. But his "apology" gives me no reason to think that he has. If he had changed, he would have manned up, owned what he did, stated in no uncertain terms that what he did was wrong, and give a heartfelt apology, not claim he couldn't remember it, dismiss it as pranks that went too far and that if he hurt someone he was sorry.

Edit: And after listening, rather than reading the apology, it sounds like he's laughing during part of it.

[Grundbegriff]

How idiotic can we become in pursuit of partisan advantage?

[Smoove_B]

Well, we've got six months. I have a feeling you haven't ever seen the levels of derp that are coming.

[Chesspieceface]

I like nothing about Mitt Romney. That said, this is a ludicrous attention grab. I'd sort of assumed that the kids who were bully ringleaders in High School are exactly the kind of men who become president. I'm sure G.W.B. was a prince.

This is such a bullshit slander job that its pointless on its face. The VP/POTUS Gay marriage bump was all they had to say. I don't care what anyone did as a teenager short of mutilating themselves/animals/others.

I'm sensitive to GLBT rights issues, but this isn't one of them.

[Mr Bubbles]

How idiotic can we become in pursuit of partisan advantage?

How idiotic can we become? Unfortunately, we passed that point long ago. I can't see it getting much worse. Will it work its way into more popular mainstream media? That remains to be seen, but I have no doubt we have many people who drank the cool-aid and believe the lies and believe they must do anything to prevent the other side from destroying America. Hyperbole is the new black.

[Defiant]

I find it difficult to believe that an incident that was corroborated by five witnesses independently was a lie.

[Mr Bubbles]

I find it difficult to believe that an incident that was corroborated by five witnesses independently was a lie.

No this situation is not the lie. This situation is to support the lies that the other side is trying to destroy America.

[Combustible Lemur]

I find it difficult to believe that an incident that was corroborated by five witnesses independently was a lie.

No this situation is not the lie. This situation is to support the lies that the other side is trying to destroy America.

So what is or isn't fair game in respect to how we pick the president. Obviously experience and actual policy positions should be paramount and secondary. But do you not think we should evaluate things like this to have a more clear context for who the leader of our country is?

I had no problem with the news saying Obama went to school in a Madrassa, or ate dog meat. I did have a problem with ooooooh booga booga MADRASSA!!!

I don't think this disqualifies Romney from service, but it does continue to paint the picture of a man who is willing to strip other people of their rights in order to retain or gain power. Is his stance on gay marriage, or health reform indicative of a change from a teenager who was willing to bully a kid who was different? Even if he thought it was justified?

It would be interesting what things in Obama's past would collate into the narrative. I think if there were anything like it we'd already know.

[Chrisoc13]

I think you're just seeing what you want to see, as well. Why do you see someone that has changed a great deal?

Ale

I've already delved into this in depth in this very thread. I said that we are all seeing what we want to see. Liberals are seeing a bully (and have even stated in this thread it wouldn't be bad if he were not a Republican) and conservatives see something that happened half a century ago.

If you don't understand why I see a changed man take the time to read two pages of posts by me in this thread. Biologically he is different that much is a fact. Secondly the Obama team had to go back half a century to dig up this story. He has given a lot on his life and something that happened 50 years ago while his brain was still developing doesn't matter to me much, especially since in my opinion his life has been quite the opposite. I see him as a stand up do good man who has lived life in such a manner that when I am his age I hope I can look back on my life and have it be as positive as his is (not talking about money here... although that would be nice).

Take the time to read my posts then if it still doesn't make sense I can try and explain more.

[Defiant]

The reporter denies that it was opposition research:

Marin Cogan: And what about the suggestion—it was made in the Fox interview with Romney but now it's being discussed on Twitter, that this was some sort of oppo story handed to you by another campaign?

Jason Horowitz: I can just say that I can fully deny that. This is a story that in no way was generated by opposition research. This is an entirely independently reported story, with no help from any politically affiliated partisan side. This was all just talking to people who went to school with him.

Marin Cogan: How did this story come about? Did you start reporting it as a profile of Romney's prep school days, or did you hear about this incident and then start reporting it?

Jason Horowitz: The idea was to just start out reporting a story about the young Romney years, what shaped him, where he was from, the school he went to, what it felt like, and the things that people have caught onto in this story resulted from that reporting. So it was a general thing that led to the specific incident.

link

[Chrisoc13]

The reporter denies that it was opposition research:

Marin Cogan: And what about the suggestion—it was made in the Fox interview with Romney but now it's being discussed on Twitter, that this was some sort of oppo story handed to you by another campaign?

Jason Horowitz: I can just say that I can fully deny that. This is a story that in no way was generated by opposition research. This is an entirely independently reported story, with no help from any politically affiliated partisan side. This was all just talking to people who went to school with him.

Marin Cogan: How did this story come about? Did you start reporting it as a profile of Romney's prep school days, or did you hear about this incident and then start reporting it?

Jason Horowitz: The idea was to just start out reporting a story about the young Romney years, what shaped him, where he was from, the school he went to, what it felt like, and the things that people have caught onto in this story resulted from that reporting. So it was a general thing that led to the specific incident.

link

Of course the reporter did. But the fact that one of the men questioned worked on Obama's campaign in 2008 makes me question that.

[silverjon]

(and have even stated in this thread it wouldn't be bad if he were not a Republican)

Could you find and quote that? I saw statements to the effect that bullying an effeminate kid in school could be consistent with a political affiliation with a party that is generally opposed to equal rights for homosexuals.

So at most, Democratic affiliation would be more indicative of a deeply changed man, but it still wouldn't excuse the behavior.

[Combustible Lemur]

I think you're just seeing what you want to see, as well. Why do you see someone that has changed a great deal?

Ale

I've already delved into this in depth in this very thread. I said that we are all seeing what we want to see. Liberals are seeing a bully (and have even stated in this thread it wouldn't be bad if he were not a Republican) and conservatives see something that happened half a century ago.

If you don't understand why I see a changed man take the time to read two pages of posts by me in this thread. Biologically he is different that much is a fact. Secondly the Obama team had to go back half a century to dig up this story. He has given a lot on his life and something that happened 50 years ago while his brain was still developing doesn't matter to me much, especially since in my opinion his life has been quite the opposite. I see him as a stand up do good man who has lived life in such a manner that when I am his age I hope I can look back on my life and have it be as positive as his is (not talking about money here... although that would be nice).

Take the time to read my posts then if it still doesn't make sense I can try and explain more.

So what good has he done? I saw that he did missionary work. Not bad, probably more of a requirement for him. And he held positions of power or at least administration within his church maybe service but is that much of a sacrifice for someone who is infinitely independently wealthy? He seems to have family values which is good.

On the flip side, he was a bully in highschool, showed poor judgement in transporting an animal on the roof of his car, made a career out of dismantling companies and other peoples jobs, reflects an inability to communicate empathetically with working class either through actual aloofness or just poor word choice, has shown a willingness to take peoples civil rights in order to gain more power. Now, none of these things disqualify him and depending how you interpret them, make him more qualified. but I don't necessarily see reason to think that any his current action indicate that he is different from his previous self. Other than basic age and wisdom.

[msduncan]

On the flip side, he was a bully in highschool, showed poor judgement in transporting an animal on the roof of his car, made a career out of dismantling companies and other peoples jobs, reflects an inability to communicate empathetically with working class either through actual aloofness or just poor word choice, has shown a willingness to take peoples civil rights in order to gain more power. Now, none of these things disqualify him and depending how you interpret them, make him more qualified. but I don't necessarily see reason to think that any his current action indicate that he is different from his previous self. Other than basic age and wisdom.

Dude. He was 18. Boys are idiots at 18 -- some just more than others.