The Empire Strikes Back - Empire Victory

[Remus West]

If we're going to deny grund's advice then we kill grund. If we want to see how it goes then we leave them both alone.

Lynching trig is madness.

I agree, and it's a little odd that Remus thinks otherwise (or as he said, that he thinks he has a better chance with that lynch...)

I did not think anyone would be interested in lynching a Seer claimant in spite of it being a pretty obvious lie. I figured that getting either of them lynched would get the job done and with triggercut slipping up and proclaiming himself it seemed pretty obvious to me that he would be the more likely one to get the fence sitters to agree on. I just want one of them lynched. I don't care which because lynching one of them will lead to lynching the other.

Let me put it to you this way.
Lynch triggercut:
triggercut comes up Evil we know Grund is Evil.
triggercut comes up Good it has no bearing on Grund but removes the taint of "the slip" from tying them together.

Lynch Grundbegriff:
Grund comes up Evil it has no bearing on triggercut - it is still triggercut's slip that condemns him as a fake Seer often names a player who is actually good as their scan.
Grund comes up Good it proves triggercut is Good but costs us the Seer and over night probably costs us his only scan.

So where is the benefit of lynching Grund versus lynching triggercut again? Evil Grund tells us nothing regarding triggercut and we are left tomorrow with those who still argue that triggercut's "slip" was not a true slip. Personally I like the triggercut comes up Evil and I don't have to spend 30 some odd posts convincing the rest of you that we need to lynch Grundbegriff. Then I can spend those 30 odd posts in tribute to my own genius. Cause we all know I'm going to make those posts one way or the other if I don't get killed.

[purge]

Hrmph. Neither will I place, until consensus is reached. Always this was my intent. The suspect must be selected, and at N-2 before any vote will I cast. An absence of evidence there is, that Dooku may surprise us. Proof it is not, that here he may be. N-2 is safer that way.

[WarPig]

So if Yoda, Dooku, or R2 make their secret votes, how does that work? Do the players PM bb with their secret votes and then the voting just stops at a certain point, n having been reached?

Oh, and Qatanga, I have no inside information, just a gut instinct. Since I can't spend the time at work to read the improvised novella that is this thread, I have to go with what I see that stands out.

[coopasonic]

So if Yoda, Dooku, or R2 make their secret votes, how does that work? Do the players PM bb with their secret votes and then the voting just stops at a certain point, n having been reached?

bb posts "Voting is closed" then CR says "WTF!"

[Remus West]

So if Yoda, Dooku, or R2 make their secret votes, how does that work? Do the players PM bb with their secret votes and then the voting just stops at a certain point, n having been reached?

bb posts "Voting is closed" then CR says "WTF!"

[LordMortis]

Let me put it to you this way.
Lynch triggercut:
triggercut comes up Evil we know Grund is Evil.
triggercut comes up Good it has no bearing on Grund but removes the taint of "the slip" from tying them together.

Lynch Grundbegriff:
Grund comes up Evil it has no bearing on triggercut - it is still triggercut's slip that condemns him as a fake Seer often names a player who is actually good as their scan.
Grund comes up Good it proves triggercut is Good but costs us the Seer and over night probably costs us his only scan.

So where is the benefit of lynching Grund versus lynching triggercut again?

Having forgot about "our" plan for purge:

Lynch triggercut at N-1:
if Trig = evil then Grund = lied. Grund = evil. Purge = Yoda.
If trig = good then grund=unknown. Purge = unknown.

Lynch Grund at N-1
If Grund = evil then trig = unknown. Purge = Yoda
If Grund = Good then Trig = good. Purge = unkown.


... And now I'm trying to figure out how I saw so clearly as grund before....


Oh wait I know what it was. If trig is left as unknown then we have a dead evil guy in pocket. If good grund dies then we have living good trig. If good trig dies, we have nothing but dead good trig. Though, I guess it evil trig dies, we know we get evil Grund. I guess it's not as much of no brainer as I originally laid down and it depends on how you gamble. I don't like the gamble that we are left with nothing but but a dead good trig. But at least I see your point of your view.

[Chaosraven]

So if Yoda, Dooku, or R2 make their secret votes, how does that work? Do the players PM bb with their secret votes and then the voting just stops at a certain point, n having been reached?

bb posts "Voting is closed" then CR says "WTF!"

I hate you guys

[Unagi]

You people all ignore that lynching either triggercut or Grundbegriff - who are our best bets to be imperials right now - yields us a test of purge if they prove imperial we get either a proven Yoda or another outted Imperial. One lynch can give us knowledge of three players.

Has it been pointed out what you are wrong about above?

if they prove imperial we get either a proven Yoda or and another outted Imperial.

Very sloppy play today and you've now got me concerned.

[Unagi]

If we're going to deny grund's advice then we kill grund. If we want to see how it goes then we leave them both alone.

Lynching trig is madness.

I agree, and it's a little odd that Remus thinks otherwise (or as he said, that he thinks he has a better chance with that lynch...)

I did not think anyone would be interested in lynching a Seer claimant in spite of it being a pretty obvious lie.

So, what you then thought was "I bet more people will vote for triggercut."

I guess you couldn't have been more 'wrong' with that assumption, as it seems you are just totally ignoring the angle that basically EVERYONE has been pointing out.... If triggercut ends up being Rebel, we've learned nothing about Grundbegriff.

You just keep blowing that point off - and that's entirely wrong.

And this isn't something that escapes you.

seriously, WTF.

I had my vote down on triggercut when I was totally mistified by his "No-No-I-didn't-Mean-That-claim" - but to test him first just doesn't hold water. It doesn't.

I'm not getting why you are pushing that, like you really mean it to be a good idea.

[Remus West]

You people all ignore that lynching either triggercut or Grundbegriff - who are our best bets to be imperials right now - yields us a test of purge if they prove imperial we get either a proven Yoda or another outted Imperial. One lynch can give us knowledge of three players.

Has it been pointed out what you are wrong about above?

if they prove imperial we get either a proven Yoda or and another outted Imperial.

Very sloppy play today and you've now got me concerned.

Sloppy because I did not address the obvious that has no impact on purge which was the reason I was talking about it at all? Plus, I said three players. Who did you think the three were. I'll give you a hint. They start with t,p, and g. Although an Evil Grund does not yield an Evil triggercut. He is still only condemned by his Empire statement. And it is not "either" as indictated by your red "and" we get both. So, which of us is being sloppy?

Last but not least, your concern does not concern me. I knew raising a stink on this was going to make waves. I'm not willing to look past that serious of a mistake by the Imperials.

[purge]

Both sides it seems, argue to the same argument. Both want to test our seer - but not willing to wait a day are they. Hrmph.
Impatient they are- and wrong they may be.

[Remus West]

triggercut Evil = Grund Evil, purge proven one way or the other.
triggercut Good = Grund ? but either killed in night (unlikely) or forced to provide another "scan", purge unknown.

Grund Good = triggercut Good but probably killed in the night since we obviously have no protection other than Mon Moth and he would not be a good use of her, purge unknown.
Grund Evil = triggercut ? and left alone for us to figure out later. The following lynch due to his Empire comment but NOT because of a tie to Grund as you seem to think. purge proven one way or the other.

So why is testing triggercut first so wrong again?

[Remus West]

Both sides it seems, argue to the same argument. Both want to test our seer - but not willing to wait a day are they. Hrmph.
Impatient they are- and wrong they may be.

Did you miss the part where triggercut essentially said they were lying?

[purge]

Both sides it seems, argue to the same argument. Both want to test our seer - but not willing to wait a day are they. Hrmph.
Impatient they are- and wrong they may be.

Did you miss the part where triggercut essentially said they were lying?

[/yodaspeak]
Entertain me. Use quotes.
[yodaspeak]

[coopasonic]

So why is testing triggercut first so wrong again?

Because it's boring!

If you can put odds on the different outcomes and impacts on the different results, it may sway your thoughts... or maybe we should leave probability out of it.

[LordMortis]

triggercut Evil = Grund Evil, purge proven one way or the other.
triggercut Good = Grund ? but either killed in night (unlikely) or forced to provide another "scan", purge unknown.

Grund Good = triggercut Good but probably killed in the night since we obviously have no protection other than Mon Moth and he would not be a good use of her, purge unknown.
Grund Evil = triggercut ? and left alone for us to figure out later. The following lynch due to his Empire comment but NOT because of a tie to Grund as you seem to think. purge proven one way or the other.

So why is testing triggercut first so wrong again?

Why is it obvious we have no protection other than Mon Mothra? Do we even know that we have Bon Barfly in the game and that she wasn't redrun? Why is Ron Ronda not best served in preserving Trig if Trig is known to be good? It seems to me that this may be as good of a sacrifice as any. Better than sacrificing herself to protect an unknown Grund, IMO.

[LordMortis]

I do have to really wonder why she didn't fall on the sword on day one. It's a pretty crappy role when you think about it and really her single best play.

[Remus West]

This

FWIW, I knew Grundbegriff was either Talon Karrde or Emperor Palpatine. If no one counterclaims him as Karrde, I think we can take him at his word.

If you guys didn't get the hint, I sure did, when Grund announced that the one player he trusted implicitly was me. Remember that I sat atop his list of Day 1 suspects.

That's when I knew he'd scanned me.

I am Empire, obviously.

I won't divulge my role, obviously, as there should be no need to.

Does that work for you, purge?
Would you prefer not to vote for either one of them?

[Remus West]

triggercut Evil = Grund Evil, purge proven one way or the other.
triggercut Good = Grund ? but either killed in night (unlikely) or forced to provide another "scan", purge unknown.

Grund Good = triggercut Good but probably killed in the night since we obviously have no protection other than Mon Moth and he would not be a good use of her, purge unknown.
Grund Evil = triggercut ? and left alone for us to figure out later. The following lynch due to his Empire comment but NOT because of a tie to Grund as you seem to think. purge proven one way or the other.

So why is testing triggercut first so wrong again?

Why is it obvious we have no protection other than Mon Mothra? Do we even know that we have Bon Barfly in the game and that she wasn't redrun? Why is Ron Ronda not best served in preserving Trig if Trig is known to be good? It seems to me that this may be as good of a sacrifice as any. Better than sacrificing herself to protect an unknown Grund, IMO.

Go read her description again. No, we can not be certain she was not redrun though.

[LordMortis]

This

FWIW, I knew Grundbegriff was either Talon Karrde or Emperor Palpatine. If no one counterclaims him as Karrde, I think we can take him at his word.

If you guys didn't get the hint, I sure did, when Grund announced that the one player he trusted implicitly was me. Remember that I sat atop his list of Day 1 suspects.

That's when I knew he'd scanned me.

I am Empire, obviously.

I won't divulge my role, obviously, as there should be no need to.

Does that work for you, purge?
Would you prefer not to vote for either one of them?

Your repost does make me wonder, aside from the empire gaff, what would make Trig assume Grund was Palpatine if he's not Talon. And the more think about it the more I'm back on lynching Grund.

[LordMortis]

Go read her description again.

Mon Mothma: The only role to be guaranteed in this game. She can nobly sacrifice herself to block a night kill. Instead of the intended target dying, Mon Mothma will die instead. This sacrifice overrides any protection that may be on Mon Mothma. Players will be told of Mon Mothma's sacrifice, and the victim of the foiled night kill will be identified to the group.

OK, now what?

[purge]

Worse mistakes, I have made, in the past 700 years.

Uneasy I feel- killing two people on one word.
What harm is there in tomorrow - forcing the sith to move first may do more to reveal.

Trig=good, w. mistake. Grund unproven.
Trig=bad, w. slip. Grund proven false.
Grund=good, lynch does not prove Trig.
Grund=bad, lynch does not prove Trig.

Seeing night kill attempt with Mon Mothma sacrifice + Grund scan tested tomorrow holds value- have you thought on this, Hrrm?
Leave these two for now, I would. Time is best used to loosen the knot.

Find another, we should.

Have you a way to win today, Remus? Hrrrm? That tomorrow is not important? See it, I do not.

[theohall]

Why doubt  triggercut's 
 
own words?

[purge]

Why doubt  triggercut's 
 
own words?

Out Loud:
Say toast 3 times.
Say toast 5 times fast.
Spell toast 3 times.
Say toast 4 times fast.

Now quick as you can answer this:

Spoiler:

What do you put in a toaster?

A mistake you will make. Hrrm.

Proof you seek, and proof I have found.
The first paragraph you should read, and truth becomes clear.

[Lassr]

Why doubt  triggercut's 
 
own words?

Out Loud:
Say toast 3 times.
Say toast 5 times fast.
Spell toast 3 times.
Say toast 4 times fast.

Now quick as you can answer this:

Spoiler:

What do you put in a toaster?

A mistake you will make. Hrrm.

Proof you seek, and proof I have found.
The first paragraph you should read, and truth becomes clear.

Pop Tarts & Waffles

[purge]

Hmmm. Tummyache you must have.

[Remus West]

Go read her description again.

Mon Mothma: The only role to be guaranteed in this game. She can nobly sacrifice herself to block a night kill. Instead of the intended target dying, Mon Mothma will die instead. This sacrifice overrides any protection that may be on Mon Mothma. Players will be told of Mon Mothma's sacrifice, and the victim of the foiled night kill will be identified to the group.

OK, now what?

Emphasis mine. Why bother protecting anyone right now? Later in the game a known is more valuable. You've been saying that the Seer should have been looking to gather known goods. Mon Mothma provides one to the group.

[Remus West]

Why doubt  triggercut's 
 
own words?

Out Loud:
Say toast 3 times.
Say toast 5 times fast.
Spell toast 3 times.
Say toast 4 times fast.

Now quick as you can answer this:

Spoiler:

What do you put in a toaster?

A mistake you will make. Hrrm.

Proof you seek, and proof I have found.
The first paragraph you should read, and truth becomes clear.

Rum soaked bacon dipped in pancake batter

[LordMortis]

[quote="Lassr"Pop Tarts & Waffles[/quote]

Waffles? Not even egos. I think you mean Pop Tarts and Bagels.

And also I'm not sure what purges point is. I'm guessing it's that he toast thing is saying trig is empire and that he backs remus "poke the innocent" point. Only that seems odd to me as the previous post suggests the opposite.

[LordMortis]

Go read her description again.

Mon Mothma: The only role to be guaranteed in this game. She can nobly sacrifice herself to block a night kill. Instead of the intended target dying, Mon Mothma will die instead. This sacrifice overrides any protection that may be on Mon Mothma. Players will be told of Mon Mothma's sacrifice, and the victim of the foiled night kill will be identified to the group.

OK, now what?

Emphasis mine. Why bother protecting anyone right now? Later in the game a known is more valuable. You've been saying that the Seer should have been looking to gather known goods. Mon Mothma provides one to the group.

That makes you certain we have no other protection than Mom Opera?
That makes you certain we are best served by not protecting if Trig if we know for a fact that trig is good if we kill Grund and Grund is good?

You've been saying that the Seer should have been looking to gather known goods.

You misunderstand why a seer should be looking at his own good list rather than his own bad list and I really really really am beginning to think these sorts of actions are your intention. I think a seer should be looking at his goods so he can see his own mistakes while still publicly pursuing the people he thinks are bad, so he doesn't have drastic uncalled for changes in opinion.

However, your point about providing a good member to the group is taken.

[Remus West]

Why trade kills (which is what Mon Mothma does since she has to die) with triggercut who would, in that scenario be proven Good via Grund scan, rather than hold it until later and provide a known good when there are fewer players and a known thus holds more value?

As for being certain, I'm not 100% certain but I am certainly the only one who does not think redrun was special and that was the case yesterday as well. So, if everyone but me thinks redrun is special, why would he not have gotten protected? I'm not Qui-Jonn so it would stand to reason that if he were in the game he would have protected the one player it looked likely they would attack - even if he did not think redrun was special. He doesn't get killed protecting the wrong side in this game so why not protect? Makes me feel pretty good about the claim that he is not in the game.

[purge]

[quote="Lassr"Pop Tarts & Waffles

Waffles? Not even egos. I think you mean Pop Tarts and Bagels.

And also I'm not sure what purges point is. I'm guessing it's that he toast thing is saying trig is empire and that he backs remus "poke the innocent" point. Only that seems odd to me as the previous post suggests the opposite.[/quote]

The statement is

I am obviously [pulldown menu] Empire / Rebel.

If it is too much on his mind, and he's tired, it's an easy flip.

Empire he may be. :shrug: The only one he cannot be. Mothma's help we could use.

[Unagi]

I'm not Qui-Jonn so it would stand to reason that if he were in the game he would have protected the one player it looked likely they would attack - even if he did not think redrun was special. He doesn't get killed protecting the wrong side in this game so why not protect? Makes me feel pretty good about the claim that he is not in the game.

I think there was some discussion on this.

The idea was that Qui John becomes exposed on the next day, and that he may not have wanted to be, just to protect redrun.

Something along those lines.

Why not just lynch Grund today.

If he dies Rebel - we have triggercut as Gold.
Other scenarios seem to keep Grund in doubt and could expose the guy that protects Grund.

I mean, if you are sitting here (Evil) and knowing that triggercut is Good - you would be getting a good deal out of lynching triggercut. You can see that, right?

[LordMortis]

So, if everyone but me thinks redrun is special, why would he not have gotten protected? I'm not Qui-Jonn so it would stand to reason that if he were in the game he would have protected the one player it looked likely they would attack - even if he did not think redrun was special. He doesn't get killed protecting the wrong side in this game so why not protect? Makes me feel pretty good about the claim that he is not in the game.

While I think redrun is special I also think he's crafty enough to not be special.

While I think Qui-John should have protected redrun even if he thought redrun was empire and this suggests to me that Qui-John is not in the game, people make smaller plays I don't understand all of time. I still don't get why purge would secret vote on Grund as Yoda before the kill while voting somewhere else. I also don't get why, as Yoda or Dukoo or any other member of the empire, he'd tell us this. So whether Yoda or Dukoo or some other imperial players, I don't get his play. It happens.

[Remus West]

I'm not Qui-Jonn so it would stand to reason that if he were in the game he would have protected the one player it looked likely they would attack - even if he did not think redrun was special. He doesn't get killed protecting the wrong side in this game so why not protect? Makes me feel pretty good about the claim that he is not in the game.

I think there was some discussion on this.

The idea was that Qui John becomes exposed on the next day, and that he may not have wanted to be, just to protect redrun.

Something along those lines.

Why not just lynch Grund today.

If he dies Rebel - we have triggercut as Gold.
Other scenarios seem to keep Grund in doubt and could expose the guy that protects Grund.

I mean, if you are sitting here (Evil) and knowing that triggercut is Good - you would be getting a good deal out of lynching triggercut. You can see that, right?

Qui-Gon is only exposed if the target of his protection is lynched.

Qui-Gon Jinn: Selects someone to protect at night. If that person is selected for a night kill, then the kill is blocked. Qui-Gon and the Imperials will be told that the kill was blocked. Qui-Gon’s identity will not be revealed. The protected person cannot be the target of a lynch the following day. If a lynch is attempted on the protected, it fails and it goes to night. Players will be told the lynch was blocked, Qui-Gon’s identity will be revealed. If an instant kill is attempted on the protected person, it can only be carried out if the person giving the kill order knows the victim’s identity. Otherwise the kill will fail and the players will be informed of the protection. Qui-Gon’s identity will be revealed. Qui-Gon cannot protect the same person two nights in a row.

If there is a protection the night that we have a Seer claimant running around do you really think we then lynch the Seer claimant? So where is your gold for Team Evil again?

If you want to extend that to redrun then he risks being outed again only if we decide to lynch the most likely target of a night attack the day after a protection. I just don't see it happening. If that is what held someone back as Qui-Gon then they made a horrid play, imo. I did not think him special and still would have protected him simply because he had garnered so much attention. What the hell does the protector do if he isn't trying to protect anyone? Thus, I conclude there is no Qui-Gon.

[Unagi]

This

FWIW, I knew Grundbegriff was either Talon Karrde or Emperor Palpatine. If no one counterclaims him as Karrde, I think we can take him at his word.

If you guys didn't get the hint, I sure did, when Grund announced that the one player he trusted implicitly was me. Remember that I sat atop his list of Day 1 suspects.

That's when I knew he'd scanned me.

I am Empire, obviously.

I won't divulge my role, obviously, as there should be no need to.

Does that work for you, purge?
Would you prefer not to vote for either one of them?

Your repost does make me wonder, aside from the empire gaff, what would make Trig assume Grund was Palpatine if he's not Talon. And the more think about it the more I'm back on lynching Grund.

That Palpatine comment wasn't something I even thought about until now.

Why, as a good guy, would Triggercut feel that Grundbegriff needed to be Palpatine in order to declare that "Triggercut is 100% trustable".


Triggercut, when you saw that 'hint' from Grund - why did you think "He's either Talon or Palpatine" ? splain

[Unagi]

I still don't get why purge would secret vote on Grund as Yoda before the kill while voting somewhere else.

It actually doesn't make a lick of sense.
And then do you see him defending triggercut's claim? purge is as about as 'on the fence' as it gets in my head. His primary defense being the 15 clues (but, damn, that works against him a bit too) - and then just him being him. Every other damn thing makes me want to lynch him.

(Honestly purge, you may be having a lot of fun with the Yoda talk, but it's getting a little stale)

I also don't get why, as Yoda or Dukoo or any other member of the empire, he'd tell us this.

purge could have just screwed up as Yoda regarding the vote on Grund... OR - and we have certainly seen wolves do this: They have a desire to come 'as clean' as they can. He may have told us, because he didn't think it was all that bad of an act.

Also, I am sorta amazed that purge didn't feel (remember, on Day 1, there was some discussion about lynching Purge) that he should hold onto that secret vote, So that he could 'Prove*' who he was to us all. That's another thing that's bothering me.

It happens.

tru nuf.

[LordMortis]

Just so we know that is not a defense of purge. I'm confused enough by the whole thing that I can't exonerate or condemn him or trust him or anything. Had the back off not happened, I'd have let him hang. The good news is that he is sort of trapped until exonerated or incriminated and that makes him worth keeping alive... I think. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong because I literally just came to that conclusion while typing this)

[LordMortis]

... Also if true that means there are now two people I will refuse to vote for today. Trig and purge and I can't believe I'm saying that because I have better than average feel that they are guilty.... Which makes me want to lynch Grund all the more.

[Scoop20906]

This

FWIW, I knew Grundbegriff was either Talon Karrde or Emperor Palpatine. If no one counterclaims him as Karrde, I think we can take him at his word.

If you guys didn't get the hint, I sure did, when Grund announced that the one player he trusted implicitly was me. Remember that I sat atop his list of Day 1 suspects.

That's when I knew he'd scanned me.

I am Empire, obviously.

I won't divulge my role, obviously, as there should be no need to.

Does that work for you, purge?
Would you prefer not to vote for either one of them?

You know, reading Trigs post again it actually looks more like a slip and not a brain fart. His statement is very prominent and clear.

I can see a scenario where Grund felt HAD to fake a role and hope Talon wasn't in the game. Grund was up against the wall. He named Trig as a scanned trusted and then Trig made his "slip". It doesn't sound as far fetched as I thought at first.

I can imagine the conversation that's going on in the Imp forum between an evil Grund and evil Trig.

I still don't think we test either one today but I would not trust a thing either of them said now.

It'd be nice to think we revealed two of their specials instead of one of our own. I'd feel better about our chances.