Game of Thrones - Season 2 Discussion

[Odin]

My opinion on this is that he is trying so hard to get back into his father's good graces that he took the city that not only defeated his father (and killed his brothers), but that held him "captive" for nine years (ignoring the fact that while "captive " he was treated like a son and allowed to bang Roz for free). He's trying to be ruthless when it's not in his nature, so he comes across as bumbling and incompetent. And I think he also wants Winterfell as his own, seeing as it's history and importance in the realms is legendary (its founders were part of the First Men on the continent, if I am understanding it correctly).

That's pretty much it. If he's Lord of Winterfell, holding one of the most powerful castles in Westeros, the seat of House Starks and an ancient line of Kings in the North, it pretty much wipes his slate of embarrassments clean. Being a ward of house stark, being "given away" by his father, being mocked by his sister, being derided by his own men - all of his real and perceived slights are purged. And it wouldn't really take much - the castle's so easy to defend (thanks to very high double-walls, among other things) and the lack of a serious army to take it away means that if his sister just gave him a few dozen Ironborn (men which Theon feels should rightfully be his anyway, since he's the son and he was the one with the bold plan to capture Winterfell in the first place), he could truly redeem himself.

[coopasonic]

Can we wait two more seasons and then put Sansa on the list?

This. I also feel the same way about the redhead that plays Nathan Fillian's daughter on Castle.

She's been legal since October.

[Exodor]

Peter Dinklage interview on NPR

[gameoverman]

Well I realize Theon can hold the castle but what, he never plans to go outside again? Where are his supplies going to come from? His own sister, who he knows has his father's ear, told him he's too far away from the family's power to be protected by them.

The only thing I can figure is he thinks the Stark army is going to get owned, by the Lannisters or whoever else it doesn't matter, and then the entire north will be helpless. That's a hell of a gamble because for all he knows the Starks may decide to retreat home to retake what's theirs. Then he'll be stuck in a castle with food running out and his family too far away to do anything even if they wanted to help him.

[Hyena]

Well I realize Theon can hold the castle but what, he never plans to go outside again? Where are his supplies going to come from? His own sister, who he knows has his father's ear, told him he's too far away from the family's power to be protected by them.

The only thing I can figure is he thinks the Stark army is going to get owned, by the Lannisters or whoever else it doesn't matter, and then the entire north will be helpless. That's a hell of a gamble because for all he knows the Starks may decide to retreat home to retake what's theirs. Then he'll be stuck in a castle with food running out and his family too far away to do anything even if they wanted to help him.Well I realize Theon can hold the castle but what, he never plans to go outside again? Where are his supplies going to come from? His own sister, who he knows has his father's ear, told him he's too far away from the family's power to be protected by them.

I believe you are giving Theon too much credit when you use the word "think...." If you have paid attention to his character throughout the show, you will see an impulsive, arrogant, entitled little punk who thinks entirely too much of himself. For example: screwing Roz, then claiming he didn't want to pay for it; poking fun of Jon Snow for being a bastard, when he himself isn't even a child of Ned Stark, but in fact is collateral against another invasion by the Greyjoys; showing up in Pyke like he owns the Iron Islands, only to receive a figurative and literal smackdown by his father; his repeated demands to be called the Prince of Winterfell, only to have people just as repeatedly forget or even mock him for his claims. He's like a seventh grader. He acts without realizing that actions have consequences, for good or ill.

[Sepiche]

See, the thing I love about Theon's storyline is that even when he tries to prove himself to his father and does seemingly great things, he goes about it all wrong. It underscores the fact that he was raised by Northmen and not Ironborn.

For all the cunning it took to take Winterfell, to the Ironborn he took it by treachery taking it from a handful of old men and boys. That's not the iron price. Moreover, it also shows Theon's upbringing that he takes Winterfell and even considers holding it. It all goes back to the words of House Greyjoy that try as he might Theon never quite understands: We Do Not Sow.

[hepcat]

Every time Theon is on screen I keep expecting the chase music from Benny Hill to start playing...

[Vorret]

I have not read the book, but I expect him to die soon (I mean, it's the only show I've ever watched where they'll kill important people left and right).

[gameoverman]

I guess I do give him too much credit because I kind of like him, or I did anyways. He was a happy go lucky guy, a hedonist at heart, there's charm in that. It's somewhat disappointing that he didn't seem to learn anything from living with Ned Stark.

[Bruce]

I'm only up to episode 5 but why is Margaery dressed as Garrus?

[theohall]

That guy Theon, what the hell!? He's like a dumb version of Joffrey. Joffrey may be a psycho but he seems to be a reasonably clever one, his uncle couldn't get one over on him with the sex offering.

Joffrey is just as dumb. "I will ride out and meet Stannis on the beach"

[theohall]

I guess I do give him too much credit because I kind of like him, or I did anyways. He was a happy go lucky guy, a hedonist at heart, there's charm in that. It's somewhat disappointing that he didn't seem to learn anything from living with Ned Stark.

They are doing a good job of portraying Theon the way he was in the book. A petulant child who can't get the respect he believes he deserves and keeps doing things to "earn" it, but completely screwing up the "earning" part.

[TiLT]

See, the thing I love about Theon's storyline is that even when he tries to prove himself to his father and does seemingly great things, he goes about it all wrong. It underscores the fact that he was raised by Northmen and not Ironborn.

For all the cunning it took to take Winterfell, to the Ironborn he took it by treachery taking it from a handful of old men and boys. That's not the iron price. Moreover, it also shows Theon's upbringing that he takes Winterfell and even considers holding it. It all goes back to the words of House Greyjoy that try as he might Theon never quite understands: We Do Not Sow.

I think you may be misunderstanding how the Greyjoys thinks. They are all about skewing the odds and being unfair to win their battles. If they didn't, they would have been crushed ages ago. Much praise is heaped upon their relatively large fleet, but the ships in that fleet are not warships. In a battle against, say, Stannis at his current strength, the Ironborn would be completely crushed. Their whole modus operandi is to attack where the enemy is weak and to withdraw before they can muster a reply. The "iron price" only means that you take something from your enemy, not that you have to fight fair.

On the other hand, Theon taking and holding Winterfell is indeed contrary to the Ironborn style, which Yara/Asha points out. If he had merely looted Winterfell, grabbed the kids for ransom and returned back home, he'd probably be praised for his initiative.

[Sepiche]

The "iron price" only means that you take something from your enemy, not that you have to fight fair.

Technically you're right, but there's more to it than simply taking. Ironborn take from the weak yes, but prestige comes from taking from trained warriors in battle, not by cowing defenseless peasants. Simply paying the iron price isn't the whole point... it's also a means of proving how strong you are to other Ironborn by taking from the strong. A captain that does nothing but raid villages and beat up on peasants is eventually going to find some of his crew who think he's too weak to fight anyone stronger and they'll challenge him for leadership.

Theon is even mocked at one point IIRC for taking Winterfell with barely a fight. Yes he paid the iron price for it, but who cares when anyone with a handful of men could have done the same.

[Zaxxon]

Also, it's not true that the Greyjoy fleet is weak.

Spoiler:

See book 5.

[hepcat]

That guy Theon, what the hell!? He's like a dumb version of Joffrey. Joffrey may be a psycho but he seems to be a reasonably clever one, his uncle couldn't get one over on him with the sex offering.

Joffrey is just as dumb. "I will ride out and meet Stannis on the beach"

Yeah, Joffrey is not someone that I would apply the word "clever" too. That seems to be one of the primary reasons Tyrion was assigned the role of The Hand. Joffrey, left to his own devices, would be dead within 24 minutes.

[TiLT]

Also, it's not true that the Greyjoy fleet is weak.

Spoiler:

See book 5.

(the below is not spoiler material, for the record)

The Tower of the Hand website did a great analysis of every faction in the story just before A Dance with Dragons was released. The analysis of the Greyjoys shows that while they do have a reasonable amount of battleships for ship-to-ship combat, they are still not anywhere close to fielding an amount of battleships that could challenge houses like the Tyrells, the Lannisters or the Baratheons (individually. If combined, it would be even worse). The rest of their fleet consists of raiding ships that have to rely on actually boarding enemy ships in combat. In a real naval battle during a war, that's a serious liability. Remember that during Balon's rebellion (ie. the one that lead to Theon becoming a ward of the Starks), the Greyjoy forces were pretty much outright humiliated in combat.

I'd go so far as to proclaim them the weakest and least significant of all the major families in Westeros (Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, Tyrell, Martell). Yes, even the Martells, considering their homeland is so defensible that nobody in their right mind would dare try to invade them.

As for later events in the books (big spoilers for anyone who hasn't read all the books!):

Spoiler:

The Greyjoys were pillaging and plundering only because no other factions had the capacity to muster a defense. The Tyrells were busy in King's Landing. The Lannisters were busy with the Starks (and lost big parts of their fleet in the battle of Blackwater Bay). The Baratheons lost most of their fleet at Blackwater Bay. The Greyjoys are having fun for now, but if they continued in the same direction they would get totally obliterated once the war calmed down enough for the Lannisters to send warships to deal with them (and if I recall correctly, that's exactly what the Lannisters and Tyrells were about to do the last time we saw them). Their only hope of survival was their desperate gambit to secure the dragons for themselves. In other words: The Greyjoys are in a precarious position. I highly doubt they will remain a major power in Westeros once the final conflict has ended.

[Toe]

Also, it's not true that the Greyjoy fleet is weak.

Spoiler:

See book 5.

(the below is not spoiler material, for the record)

The Tower of the Hand website did a great analysis of every faction in the story just before A Dance with Dragons was released. The analysis of the Greyjoys shows that while they do have a reasonable amount of battleships for ship-to-ship combat, they are still not anywhere close to fielding an amount of battleships that could challenge houses like the Tyrells, the Lannisters or the Baratheons (individually. If combined, it would be even worse). The rest of their fleet consists of raiding ships that have to rely on actually boarding enemy ships in combat. In a real naval battle during a war, that's a serious liability.[/spoiler]

I don't recall, do they have ranged attack on ships in this setting? If they do, it might still be reasoned that boarding was the primary method of combat.

[TiLT]

Also, it's not true that the Greyjoy fleet is weak.

Spoiler:

See book 5.

(the below is not spoiler material, for the record)

The Tower of the Hand website did a great analysis of every faction in the story just before A Dance with Dragons was released. The analysis of the Greyjoys shows that while they do have a reasonable amount of battleships for ship-to-ship combat, they are still not anywhere close to fielding an amount of battleships that could challenge houses like the Tyrells, the Lannisters or the Baratheons (individually. If combined, it would be even worse). The rest of their fleet consists of raiding ships that have to rely on actually boarding enemy ships in combat. In a real naval battle during a war, that's a serious liability.[/spoiler]

I don't recall, do they have ranged attack on ships in this setting? If they do, it might still be reasoned that boarding was the primary method of combat.

I dunno really, but the article I linked to heavily implies that the battleships are big and outfitted with rams that they use to sink enemy ships. A raiding ship hit by one of those wouldn't stand a chance, and it would also have one hell of a challenge attempting to board it, not to mention winning the ensuing melee.

[Toe]

Also, it's not true that the Greyjoy fleet is weak.

Spoiler:

See book 5.

(the below is not spoiler material, for the record)

The Tower of the Hand website did a great analysis of every faction in the story just before A Dance with Dragons was released. The analysis of the Greyjoys shows that while they do have a reasonable amount of battleships for ship-to-ship combat, they are still not anywhere close to fielding an amount of battleships that could challenge houses like the Tyrells, the Lannisters or the Baratheons (individually. If combined, it would be even worse). The rest of their fleet consists of raiding ships that have to rely on actually boarding enemy ships in combat. In a real naval battle during a war, that's a serious liability.[/spoiler]

I don't recall, do they have ranged attack on ships in this setting? If they do, it might still be reasoned that boarding was the primary method of combat.

I dunno really, but the article I linked to heavily implies that the battleships are big and outfitted with rams that they use to sink enemy ships. A raiding ship hit by one of those wouldn't stand a chance, and it would also have one hell of a challenge attempting to board it, not to mention winning the ensuing melee.

Hmm, yeah I could see that. But how would a battleship take out a raider if the raider could avoid being rammed? I doubt it would be faster or more maneuverable.

[Zaxxon]

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. Looking back at Tilt's original post, I misread it as being more critical of the Greyjoys than it was. All I was getting at is that while the Greyjoys wouldn't be able to stand toe-to-toe with, say, the Redwyne fleet, they wouldn't be destroyed by them, either. Apples to oranges and all that. The Greyjoy fleet has its own strengths, and they're significant.

[Sepiche]

The National covers The Rains of Castamere on the season 2 soundtrack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn2l2_v6Ur8

[Odin]

The National covers The Rains of Castamere on the season 2 soundtrack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn2l2_v6Ur8

I thought one of the comments on YouTube was very well-taken (Major book spoilers for Book 3/Season 3 or 4)

Spoiler:

The comment was "I can imagine this playing in the RW scene next season with the the(sic) slaughtering in slow motion..."

If I recall correctly, the playing of "The Rains of Castemere" was indeed the signal to begin the RW.

[Odin]

Wow.

[dedewhale]

Ummmm, why doesnt Stannis where a helmut?

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Now that seriously rocked.

[Sherpa]

Ummmm, wht doesnt Stannis where a helmut?

It's TV! well HBO anyway -- audience needs to easily track the main characters on the screen.

And, yeah, that was a pretty awesome episode. GRRM hit all the major points script-wise from that part of ACoK.

[Inverarity]

That was incredible. I definitely did not predict the outcome.

[KKBlue]

Wow! Totally made the scarecrow dismembering look silly in comparison
Know the OZ tossing of legs was funny, it's been a long time since

Spoiler:

I've seen so many appendages removed by one fell swoop!

[Exodor]

Amazing episode.

I wonder if the absence of Jon Snow and Daenerys had anything to do with it. MAN those plot lines are dragging...

[TiLT]

Holy hell, the wildfire looked more amazing than anything I imagined while reading the books. That was awesome!

The only thing I didn't like was Stannis on the front lines. He's supposed to be the practical guy. He wouldn't be anywhere near the front of that battle (and he isn't in the books)!

[Carpet_pissr]

Keep harping on it, but they *really* nailed the casting, made more apparent in this episode with Bronn in particular.

I wonder if the leads read the books? Can't imagine them being able to do what they are doing on screen (just nailing some of he characters) with just cursory prep work (maybe long consults with Martin?)

Freaking spectacular. And agree, the wildfire scene was even better than in my mind's eye when reading about it.

[Zaxxon]

The Hound owned this episode.

[pr0ner]

Ummmm, why doesnt Stannis where a helmut?

What's a helmut?

[Redfive]

Watching it again makes me wish I had a nice sound system to go with my TV. Epic explosion.

And I love The Hound.

[Odin]

The Hound owned this episode.

All of the major characters in this episode really did a terrific job (excepting Sansa, who's always kind of meh). I thought Bronn and the Hound were especially good, Tyrion was terrific, and Cersei was a total bitch as intended. Shae was actually slightly less useless than usual, and I even thought Lancel did a pretty good job.

[gameoverman]

That was an awesome hour of tv!

I thought the actress playing Sansa did well. She's still a girl, a girly girl at that, so in a show like this she won't stand out much. But I thought in this episode she held her own.

The Hound guy didn't work so well for me. I couldn't really get a read on where he was coming from. I thought at first he was just tired, then chickening out, the maybe rebelling against the king, then what he does at the end...uh, where did THAT come from? His character seemed all over the map and I couldn't figure out why. This is probably one of those times when reading the book would have paid off.

I will note that Tyrion met Stannis's men outside the walls, so Joffrey's idea of doing the same wasn't so outlandish or dumb, someone winds up doing it.

With Stannis I thought his motive was clear, it's fight or die, here and now. So it made sense to me to see him leading the charge. It was no less ridiculous than seeing Tyrion leading his charge.

[Zaxxon]

The Hound owned this episode.

Shae was actually slightly less useless than usual, and I even thought Lancel did a pretty good job.

It's almost as though the characters come through better when GRRM is writing them.

Gameoverman: the Hound was struggling with his fear of fire. Remember he's scarred from his brother holding his face in a flaming brazier. It's a testament to his strength that he wasn't cowering in Maegor's with Cersei from the moment the first arrow was lit.

[Odin]

The Hound owned this episode.

Shae was actually slightly less useless than usual, and I even thought Lancel did a pretty good job.

It's almost as though the characters come through better when GRRM is writing them.

Good point! They really did seem more like themselves (by which I mean how I expect them to behave based on having read the books) in this episode.

[KKBlue]

The other thing I will always remember is seeing that barrel below the ship... that was full. Major gross out factor for me. It took about 15 minutes before I could wipe the visual and imagined smell out of my mind. So far worse than the smelly bog in Labyrinth I'm sure.