The Empire Strikes Back - Empire Victory

[Unagi]

At the risk of sounding all wolfy:

I think we need to act on today as if our deadline is much sooner than the real deadline. Right?

Once everyone is checked in.... we may have some new direction.

[Unagi]

(3) There's some strategic reason for MM not using her power early that I'm missing.

They don't want to die?

MM's entire point is to die, instead of someone else that shouldn't die.

Just not wanting to die is not a good reason to hold the power, IMO.

[RMC]

At the risk of sounding all wolfy:

I think we need to act on today as if our deadline is much sooner than the real deadline. Right?

Once everyone is checked in.... we may have some new direction.

I agree. Waiting until the last day, let alone the last hour seems to not work out well for team good guys.

And I hope Jow was just a jawa or something, and not a special.

[purge]

If Mon Mothma wanted to see if Grund actually WAS targetted would be a good reason. Perhaps she doesn't want to simply be a litmus test for ANYONE, but instead for someone specific.

Or, Redrun was Mon Mothma.

[Remus West]

I'm waiting on what Remus and Grund both have to say.

What would you like me to say? I do not believe that Imperials would allow a non-Imperial Talon claimant to survive but I'm happy to await the scan claim of grundbegriff and see what he says. After that I suggest we set up a test for purge - preferably days ahead of the actual scheduled deadline - so that we can at least gain some information regarding him.

Admittedly, jow throws me for a loop as the target. My thought is that we had to have just lost a special. triggercut already told us Palp is in the game so they must have scanned him and found him to be something worth targetting. The biggest problem I have with that is if they were worried about Mon and jow was a special then attacking him would have proven him and they would not have wanted to do that. Thus, I find myself unsure what to make of it just yet.

[LordMortis]

why would they want to kill Trig?

Because if they're imperial, Someone ELSE will keep dying each night. Leaving less room in the pool for their partners to hide in. Eventually everyone will say 'ok, enough' and lynch either or both. My own instinct is to not lynch a seer until he gives us enough info that it changes the game for us.

Trig is set aside in bottle until Grund dies. If grund is good then trig is good(ish - mara possilbilities). If grund it bad then we know nothing about trig. Not killing Trig sets up the chain reaction we are hopeful for if grund is good. The game can't change for us if Grund is incapable of giving us information. That's been my whole point about the seer all along.

Of course the ultimate problem is that we have no idea what sort of timeline we are up against. That's what I've been trying to question with the let him live crowd and not getting any satisfaction on. When in their estimation is too late and why? When do we get enough information? Especially when Grund claims his job is either to do what it takes to stay alive at all costs (if he imperial) or to do what it takes to stay alive until a better special comes along (if he rebel).

[Remus West]

The offer still stands - I don't think that the tested should get to be killed without speaking first. I doubt Dooku would give you that same consideration.

Why wouldn't he?

I suppose he would were the target an imperial. He could do whatever he wanted - I was highlighting my tendency (across the board) of not scooping people.

I can do what he cannot - I can cast both votes on imperial.

Remus ... can we test you? Your gameplay reminds me of the one where Rev and I were going at it. There's almost a ... I dunno ... cold detachment? to your gameplay. As opposed to raging mistrust that you held last game.

It's unsettling.

Why would he not wait on a Rebel target as well? Is it not in his best interest to appear Rebel? Thus anything you think you would do is probably something he would do as well. This is why I always doubt you. You seem to think you have some clever difference between you playing the role you claim and any other person playing the role you claim. Nothing you have said, not one single thing, is seperate from anything I'd expect from anyone playing either Yoda or Dooku. You seem to have that blind spot.

As for testing me, you can do it but it won't prove anything regarding you ar anyone other than me and thus is a bad plan.

[Remus West]

At the risk of sounding all wolfy:

I think we need to act on today as if our deadline is much sooner than the real deadline. Right?

Once everyone is checked in.... we may have some new direction.

The first part sounds much more wolfy to me than the suggested action on our part. We just screwed ourselves oout of a lynch by not acting in a prompt manner. Suggesting we act well ahead of the deadline simply allows us to adjust if things do not work properly.

[LordMortis]

(3) There's some strategic reason for MM not using her power early that I'm missing.

They don't want to die?

Yeah, that occurred to me as well after I posted. I think that makes more sense on night 1 than night 2 frankly - if there's no strategic reason at this point not to sacrifice herself to prove a rebel and they're doing it just to keep playing, then they're hurting their team and their interest in actually winning.

Plus, I'd think they'd want a break from reading the WW thread to end all WW threads.

I don't know about hurting but they're playing bad odds in gambling. Their power is only good in choosing their own death. Every day that goes by they decrease the odds they will choose their own death. OTOH, the reward goes up for every day you hold off and get to choose your own death. A trusted rebel is protected from a smaller group.

Or, Redrun was Mon Mothma.

Or Jow was MM

Admittedly, jow throws me for a loop as the target.

Funny you should mention that after Guap ponders "Why didn't Grund scan Jow or Warpig" and Grund said that they are a mystery on his evilmeter.

[Remus West]

That is sort of the point though. They are a mystery. To all of us. Why remove that?

[LordMortis]

That is sort of the point though. They are a mystery. To all of us. Why remove that?

They know Jow as MM is my first and best guess. Other than that, to amaze and confuse, otherwise known as "I got nuthin'"

[El Guapo]

If Mon Mothma wanted to see if Grund actually WAS targetted would be a good reason. Perhaps she doesn't want to simply be a litmus test for ANYONE, but instead for someone specific.

I don't think that's necessary, unless I'm misunderstanding how MM's ability works. She can decide (evidently before the imperial night kill) whether she'll do her sacrifice. Then when the imperials choose, they wind up killing MM instead of their target. So we would get to find out whether Grund was targeted either way - but the MM way would be better, as instead of finding out in the morning "Grund is dead, I guess he was telling the truth about being the seer", we'd find out "Grund is alive and Mon Mothma is dead, so we know that Grund was telling the truth but also he's still alive."

Also, because MM makes her choice before the imperials choose the night kill, I don't think there's any way for her to choose who she is a litmus test for.

[El Guapo]

Admittedly, jow throws me for a loop as the target. My thought is that we had to have just lost a special. triggercut already told us Palp is in the game so they must have scanned him and found him to be something worth targetting. The biggest problem I have with that is if they were worried about Mon and jow was a special then attacking him would have proven him and they would not have wanted to do that. Thus, I find myself unsure what to make of it just yet.

My belief is that redrun was Mon Mothma, and the imperials may well know this if they have the coroner.

Or maybe they don't know whether or not Mon Mothma is still alive, and didn't want to risk proving a still-alive Grund, so picked a random target instead of Grund. Which I guess the threat thereof *is* a reason why Mon Mothma might choose not to use her ability, but that would be a hell of a gamble.

[El Guapo]

Funny you should mention that after Guap ponders "Why didn't Grund scan Jow or Warpig" and Grund said that they are a mystery on his evilmeter.

I don't know if it's important but just FYI I did not ponder that - I think you're thinking of someone else's post.

[LordMortis]

Or maybe they don't know whether or not Mon Mothma is still alive, and didn't want to risk proving a still-alive Grund, so picked a random target instead of Grund. Which I guess the threat thereof *is* a reason why Mon Mothma might choose not to use her ability, but that would be a hell of a gamble.

Why pick random over trig?

I don't know if it's important but just FYI I did not ponder that - I think you're thinking of someone else's post.

Unagi then?

[El Guapo]

Or maybe they don't know whether or not Mon Mothma is still alive, and didn't want to risk proving a still-alive Grund, so picked a random target instead of Grund. Which I guess the threat thereof *is* a reason why Mon Mothma might choose not to use her ability, but that would be a hell of a gamble.

Why pick random over trig?

Why would the imperials pick a random over trig? It's a good question. Could be that while trig being good would not prove Grund, it could be taken as partial validation of rebel Grund and make his lynch less likely? I dunno.

[purge]

My point is, if MM wanted to see the results and save the following night. Perhaps she wanted instead to see if QuiGon was going to defend him - or perhaps she's saving her power for an endgame solution to help identify a known good later on in the game.

There are reasons as to why - they don't necessarily have to be the best reasons. This isn't a game with a bunch of perfect individuals who will always take the best course of action.

While it is correct that Jow may have been MM, I don't think he was: the reason I put RR ahead of the idea that Jow is MM is that Jow would have had a lot of prompting from us about using sacrifice last night, whereas a Night 1 sacrifice with no Grund reveal would have made Redrun give pause in using it.

If Jow WAS MM, then using the sacrifice would have identified for us AT THE VERY LEAST who Mon Mothra was. Since he was the night-time target, MM's power to show who she ended up protecting would be un-satisfyingly redundant (as would RedRun if he were MM using on Night 1).

Fact is, both RedRun and Jow are dead with no reveal as to role. :shrug: Perhaps we have a coroner to help, but unless they were both special, I don't think that information is vital yet, nor does it mean that Mon Mothra is dead.

Remus, as to my "blind spot" - I can only be me, and no more. I understand your mistrust. I also get to mistrust your mistrust, because it may be manufactured because we may not be on the same side. Hence why I suggested you be tested.

You saying it would be a waste is no different than I'd expect from anyone in this game, with ANY role.

Well, except Grund.

He'd say it was a spectacularly bad idea, and leave it at that.

[purge]

Or maybe they don't know whether or not Mon Mothma is still alive, and didn't want to risk proving a still-alive Grund, so picked a random target instead of Grund. Which I guess the threat thereof *is* a reason why Mon Mothma might choose not to use her ability, but that would be a hell of a gamble.

Why pick random over trig?

Why would the imperials pick a random over trig? It's a good question. Could be that while trig being good would not prove Grund, it could be taken as partial validation of rebel Grund and make his lynch less likely? I dunno.

Maybe they'd scanned him only to discover that he's a normal, and are looking for QuiGon or shooters in the ranks. He did allude to role, and while "Rebel scum" may be a role (I've wanted to use that for a while now), his hint is that he was special.

They may have also been concerned with the iocane defense and opted to kill someone least likely to be protected to further their game. This has me concerned that they have shooter(s) who are waiting to tip the scales all at once in a big endgame swoop.

So,you people start deciding who you want to bring to test, and I'll finish the job. How does "before the weekend" sound? Too quick? "Monday evening" work better for you folks?

[purge]

I used the word "is" instead of "implied" re: Trig's role. I did not confuse this with RedRun.

[LordMortis]

I'm trying to come up with why Jow and the easiest fit is that he was MM and the empire knew it. It's not necessarily the right fit or the most probable fit or anything. It's just easiest.

Jow would be a high value scan on day one. He gets scanned and "Oh shit, he's a wild card that we can't have." For the rebels it's not huge though, when all is said and done we (or I) will assume MM is dead from not being used last night. Be that from being RR or Jow.

From the Imperials view MM being dead (being Jow or RR) is huge.

...

On thinking of it, if the Empire expected MM was alive perhaps they figured Jow was worthy of revealing as rebel in order to get the MM reveal out of the way. Though if it were me, I'd have chosen Tru1cy, knowing that Tru1cy is ubiquitously absent while not knowing Jow at all... Of course maybe they kill Tru1cy...

[Lassr]

I too wonder if Jow was a special. It was a somewhat strange selection.

If Grund is who he says he is then maybe they didn't want to prove Grund in case Mon Mothma committed the ultimate sacrifice. We know Mon Mothma is in the game but is she dead or alive and patient?

The again it could be the simple fact that Purge, Grund, and/or triggercut cannot die at night...

[RMC]

Or most likely, Jow was in no danger of getting lynched by team good guy, did not have a track record to look at to use for a reason as why he was killed.

His low post count, low target from any of us, made him a perfect target.

Why get rid of any of our more robust posters? We seem to be tying ourselves into indecisive knots and that only helps the bad guys.

So instead of worrying about if Jow was anything, let's focus on who is on team evil.

At least that is my take on why Jow got the ax last night.

[triggercut]

Or most likely, Jow was in no danger of getting lynched by team good guy, did not have a track record to look at to use for a reason as why he was killed.

His low post count, low target from any of us, made him a perfect target.

Why get rid of any of our more robust posters? We seem to be tying ourselves into indecisive knots and that only helps the bad guys.

So instead of worrying about if Jow was anything, let's focus on who is on team evil.

At least that is my take on why Jow got the ax last night.

Totally agree with this.

[Unagi]

I don't know if it's important but just FYI I did not ponder that - I think you're thinking of someone else's post.

Unagi then?

Yeah, me.
While I was writing out my threat-list, it struck me that I would have perhaps scanned the new-guys first, so as to clear them / not be blind sided by them. And I found it odd that Grund picked triggercut instead. I feel like I can recall at least one (but I feel it's more) games where Grund seemed to be able to correctly (not as the Seer) call out Triggercut as a wolf. Judas, I think it was.


My thought was that I felt a seer-grund might not have been as likely to pick triggercut as his night 1 scan.... since he's be able to perhaps rely on his ability to read triggercut.

Another way to say this.
If you go back and find all the times that Grund speaks about his ability to read one player or another.... I don't think Grund ever lists triggercut as one of the ones he can't ever read.

[Unagi]

Or, Redrun was Mon Mothma.

I don't think so.

His last remark on the topic:

It appears to me that we're close to the end of this day. Good scanners - I'd strongly advise that you not waste scans on me tonight.
I can't guarantee that I'll die tonight, but I think it's fairly likely.

Mon Mothma, quite specifically, CAN guarantee that she'll die at night.

And it sounds like Redrun, was clear on not wanting to be 'scanned', and hence truly intended to be the night kill.... If he could have guaranteed it - I think he would have. He may not have 'said as much', in an attempt to fool wolves, but we would still have gotten a Mod Message that (I'm guessing here...) "Mon Mothma stepped up and engaged the Imperials, while they seemed to try and target <RebelPlayer>"

[purge]

When you put it that way, he'd likely use the MM power since he figured he'd die anyways.

Thanks!

Redrun = Mon Mothma?

[Chaosraven]

1. Isgrimnur --------------->

Inspired a vote rush at at last moment for pulling back his Tie Vote. Claims cold medicine made him think he was being even more misguided.

2. El Guapo ---------------->

Talky

3. Qantaga ---------------->

Hiding in plain sight

4. RMC --------------------->

Trying to be "seen"

5. Lassr -------------------->

Waaaaaaay too nice.

6. Mr. Bubbles ------------->

Neaky with a Capital S

7. Coopasonic ------------->

Not arguing enough

8. Chaosraven ------------->

Pure Eeeeeevil

9. Remus West ------------>

Rabid.

10. Scoop20906 ------------>

Too quiet

11. Grundbegriff ---------->

Claims Talon. Holds up the game.

12. Theohall --------------->

Not as rabid as Remus but twice as LOUD

13. Tru1cy ----------------->

Who?

14. Purge ------------------>

Claims Yoda. Doesn't know how to set an Alarm Clock

15. Lord Mortis ----------->

Claims Wedge. Suicidal.

16. Austin ----------------->

Checks in just enough

17. Unagi ------------------>

Stages fights with Lagom

18. Triggercut ------------>

Remus and theos favorite chewtoy

19. Newcastle ------------->

Lost in the Motor City

20. Warpig ---------------->

New Guy.

21. Lagom Lite ----------->

Hates being last on other peoples lists as he has to wait to get to his Narcissistic Fix

[El Guapo]

Or, Redrun was Mon Mothma.

I don't think so.

His last remark on the topic:

It appears to me that we're close to the end of this day. Good scanners - I'd strongly advise that you not waste scans on me tonight.
I can't guarantee that I'll die tonight, but I think it's fairly likely.

Mon Mothma, quite specifically, CAN guarantee that she'll die at night.

I'm not sure that it's true that she can guarantee that she'll die:

Mon Mothma: The only role to be guaranteed in this game. She can nobly sacrifice herself to block a night kill. Instead of the intended target dying, Mon Mothma will die instead. This sacrifice overrides any protection that may be on Mon Mothma. Players will be told of Mon Mothma's sacrifice, and the victim of the foiled night kill will be identified to the group.

Say the imperials target tru1cy, Qui Gon protects Tru1cy, and Mon Mothma calls in her noble sacrifice. I *think* in this scenario that Qui Gon blocks the night kill, hence there is no night kill for Mon Mothma to sacrifice herself in place of, and she survives.

The description notes that any protect on *Mon Mothma* is overridden - I take this as in the scenario "imperials target tru1cy, Qui Gon protects Mothma, Mothma uses her sacrifice" that Mon Mothma dies rather than having the new kill of her protected by Qui Gon. It may also mean that in the scenario: "imperials target Mothma, Qui Gon protects Mothma, Mothma uses her sacrifice" that Mon Mothma would die notwithstanding the protection, but that's not clear.

Regardless, assuming the first scenario plays out like I think it would, then Mon Mothma could not guarantee that she would die at night even if she uses her ability.

bb, is this right?

[Chaosraven]

If the Imps target Mon Mothma and Mon Mothma tries to sacrifice herself, what happens?

[WarPig]

I would assume she dies either way, the flavor text may be different, though.

So, we're waiting on Grund's seer analysis, then?

Or most likely, Jow was in no danger of getting lynched by team good guy, did not have a track record to look at to use for a reason as why he was killed.

His low post count, low target from any of us, made him a perfect target.

I also can't disagree with this, and it frightens me.

[El Guapo]

I would assume she dies either way, the flavor text may be different, though.

"The imperials try to shoot Mon Mothma, but instead she braaaavely gets shot by them!"

[Chaosraven]

So, we're waiting on Grund's seer analysis, then?

10 Grundbegriff <------------------- Jow, Coopasonic, Remus West, Lord Mortis, Theohall, Tru1cy, Unagi, El Guapo, Isgrimnur, Qantaga

Well Team Jacob is going to need a replacement for Jow. Oh no wait... Majority is 11.

[El Guapo]

Notwithstanding the long paper trail, with the kill just happening this morning, it's not exactly like Grund is late with his scan, since I hear that people often work during the day.

[Unagi]

If the Imps target Mon Mothma and Mon Mothma tries to sacrifice herself, what happens?

You, (or someone) asked that before and I don't think it was answered.

I thought it interesting that the person who asked never followed up.

[Unagi]

I would assume she dies either way, the flavor text may be different, though.

"The imperials try to shoot Mon Mothma, but instead she braaaavely gets shot by them!"

"They toss a grenade into her quarters and she jumps on it!"

[coopasonic]

If the Imps target Mon Mothma and Mon Mothma tries to sacrifice herself, what happens?

You, (or someone) asked that before and I don't think it was answered.

I thought it interesting that the person who asked never followed up.

I'm pretty sure it becomes groundhog day and every night kill is Mon Mothma from then on.

[Remus West]

I would assume she dies either way, the flavor text may be different, though.

"The imperials try to shoot Mon Mothma, but instead she braaaavely gets shot by them!"

*knock knock knock*
/voice from outside door "Robbery"

Mon Moth - are you sure you are not here to kill me?

/voice - no, ma'am just want to rob the place

Mon Moth opens door.
In walks a storm trooper holding a blaster
I'm here to kill you.
Mon Moth pulls a light saber from her cloak.
I'll never allow you to succeed.
Stormtrooper - "Oh fuck. She has a light saber."
Mon Moth stabs self in face with light saber.
Stormtrooper - WTF? /shrug, walk out.

[LordMortis]

If the Imps target Mon Mothma and Mon Mothma tries to sacrifice herself, what happens?

You, (or someone) asked that before and I don't think it was answered.

I thought it interesting that the person who asked never followed up.

I'm pretty sure it becomes groundhog day and every night kill is Mon Mothma from then on.

I like it. Let's put it to a vote.

[theohall]

Gee.... what a surprise. The Imperials supposedly let THREE Rebels specials live.

1) Grundbegriff = Palpatine. He should be dead.
2) triggercut = Naru Gun. He wanted us to lynch him so he would not die. He would then claime was Lando. Convenient way to avoid a day time lynch and give the Imperials another free kill. Unfortanetely, we rebels let that happen anyway by listening to the noise coming from someone who flat out said "I am Empire, obviously" and a large group ignoring someone who said they completely trusted triggercut before his Empire statement. How does anyone not lynch the guy who completely trusted someone who then said "I am Empire, obviously." The logic of NOT lynching that person on a specious scanner claim boggles the mind.
3) purge = Dooku.

 Grundbegriff 
 


And, purge, my certainty is based on the posts of you three - nothing more.

How in the hell does the Empire leave the Rebels scanner alive???? That is complete idiocy - OR - these "Rebels" are not what they claim to be.

[theohall]

No Marsha reveal last night. That's not a good sign. Trig's not dead. I'm ambivalent about that sign. Now to wait for grund's report.

Two possibilities exist:

One - if innocent:
why would they want to kill Trig?
he's either Grunds' blind, or at the very least
he's controversial enough to be put in the noose.

Two - if guilty:
They couldn't kill him if they wanted to.

I'd be interested to see what our "seer" has to say.

I am not interested in anything Grundbegriff has to say, nor should anyone else. He flat out completely trusts someone who says they are obviously Empire. Why should we listen to anything more??? Hmmmmm???? Your "faith" in someone who is clearly supportive of an IMPERIAL and an IMPERIAL who has done his damnedest to discredit those accusing Grundbegriff - leaves you in the IMPERIAL pile. Along with your failure to prove your supposed role. Awfully convenient, that.

Shouldn't be listening to Count Dooku, either folks.