The Empire Strikes Back - Empire Victory

[Grundbegriff]

If you served us someone you claimed to be Imperial, we would be at denouement. A vote would give us a badguy, whether you or the person you named.

Indeed. I'm just saying that doing so wouldn't prove me in a slam dunk manner.

I would hope that sane people, and perhaps even 50% of Remuhall, would be strongly inclined to believe me if I managed to score an Evil.

[Chaosraven]

Well if you're an Imperial, theo and Remus should want you to reveal the 'rebel special', because if they are indeed, the imps already have that info. Perhaps we should go thru the list of Possible Rebel Special Roles and why or why not reveal them.

[triggercut]

Well if you're an Imperial, theo and Remus should want you to reveal the 'rebel special', because if they are indeed, the imps already have that info. Perhaps we should go thru the list of Possible Rebel Special Roles and why or why not reveal them.

On first blush that seems like sound reasoning--go role by role and figure out what the risk of reveal is--where "reveal" just means "presence in game" rather than the specific player holding that role.

[Grundbegriff]

Luke: Seeks Mara, preventing her conversion, or seeks Vader.
Leia: Stun bot
Obi-Wan: Coroner
Han: Negates guardian; Greedo-proof
Lando: Extra life (day)
Chewy: Good 'zerker if provoked
Yoda: Extra vote (claimed by purge)
Talon: that's me!
R2D2: Extra votes
C3PO: Team count; role scan; conversion detection
Admiral Ackbar: Mod confirmation of ID on lynch; secret agenda
Wedge Antilles: Extra life (night)
Garment District: Yes/No question when on a successful lynch
Qui-Gon: Guardian
Mothra: Self-sacrifice

[Grundbegriff]

Is there harm in revealing that any one of those exists?

[Chaosraven]

For example, if you found 'wedge' you tell us, as LM is then Imperial. If you found Lando, we could lynch him to no ill effect and prove that you (a)have access to scan info and (b)the player as a Rebel. If you found Yoda, tell us as purge is then imperial.

[triggercut]

...and if you tell us you scanned purge, I build the gallows myself....

[Chaosraven]

Luke: Seeks Mara, preventing her conversion, or seeks Vader.
Leia: Stun bot
Obi-Wan: Coroner
Han: Negates guardian; Greedo-proof
Lando: Extra life (day)
Chewy: Good 'zerker if provoked
Yoda: Extra vote (claimed by purge)
Talon: that's me!
R2D2: Extra votes
C3PO: Team count; role scan; conversion detection
Admiral Ackbar: Mod confirmation of ID on lynch; secret agenda
Wedge Antilles: Extra life (night)
Garment District: Yes/No question when on a successful lynch
Qui-Gon: Guardian
Mothra: Self-sacrifice

we know Mothma exists. Telling us she is alive means we know the dead are not her. Telling us C3P0 is in would make me pissed that he hasn't stepped forward. Telling us obiwon is in would allow us ask him to tell us who the dead were.

[LordMortis]

I'm missing something. Why bother telling us you found a special? And if it really concerned you, why not ask hypothetically, such as "What is your preferred method of reveal? If I found a special would you like to know this or would you prefer I kept it hidden?"

Anyhow, your non answer reveal has no bearing other than to reinforce the evil belief but it doesn't change my opinion for today.

 purge 
 

[Grundbegriff]

For example, if you found 'wedge' you tell us, as LM is then Imperial. If you found Lando, we could lynch him to no ill effect and prove that you (a)have access to scan info and (b)the player as a Rebel. If you found Yoda, tell us as purge is then imperial.

Let's make a list of claimants.

Was LordMortis serious in claiming to be Wedge Antilles? Or was he LMing?
purge claims to be Yoda.
Any others?

[Chaosraven]

I will ruminate further when I am home and with the computer.

[Grundbegriff]

Luke: Seeks Mara, preventing her conversion, or seeks Vader.
Leia: Stun bot
Obi-Wan: Coroner
Han: Negates guardian; Greedo-proof
Lando: Extra life (day)
Chewy: Good 'zerker if provoked
Yoda: Extra vote (claimed by purge)
Talon: that's me!
R2D2: Extra votes
C3PO: Team count; role scan; conversion detection
Admiral Ackbar: Mod confirmation of ID on lynch; secret agenda
Wedge Antilles: Extra life (night)
Garment District: Yes/No question when on a successful lynch
Qui-Gon: Guardian
Mothra: Self-sacrifice

we know Mothma exists.

That's why I bolded her. The two bolded are sure to be in the game.

[LordMortis]

Was LordMortis serious in claiming to be Wedge Antilles? Or was he LMing?

I don't recall every lying about a role.

[Unagi]

Odd.
Why even tell us that your scan was a special.
No one would have demanded to know if the person had a role.

[Grundbegriff]

Odd.
Why even tell us that your scan was a special.
No one would have demanded to know if the person had a role.

What would be the point of saying I had scanned someone and was keeping mum?
At least this way (a) the person may at some point recognize that I'm telling the truth, and (b) when I'm eventually killed, I won't leave room for Evils to lie about my identity and course of action.

Remember -- Palpatine can emulate me, so it's vital that I preempt that possibility in case Palpatine exists.

[Grundbegriff]

Was LordMortis serious in claiming to be Wedge Antilles? Or was he LMing?

I don't recall every lying about a role.

If you're Wedge, why did you reveal so early in the game?

[Chaosraven]

When you die, if you show Rebel, no one will be able to dispute your Role.

[triggercut]

Remember -- Palpatine can emulate me, so it's vital that I preempt that possibility in case Palpatine exists.

Any Imperial player can emulate Talon Karrde as long as Palpatine is one of their number.

[Unagi]

Hello?

Seriously?

I'm Talon Karrde (even though I have no idea who he is). I won't tell you triggercut's exact role, but I'll tell you he's trustworthy. If we have a guardian, that person might want to protect me tonight. Meanwhile, we should discuss what will probably be my final scan.

Unagi: he did not say whether or not I had a role.

I did not say whether or not I had a role.
<snip>

This is like the inverse of how you approached this scan.

And , to another point. Is there seriously a world where hearing "what role" you scanned is of any value?
This is like a mentalist at a poker table declaring that someone at the table has a queen of clubs in their hand.... Who the hell knows if it's true, and who's gonna yell "Hey, yeah - He's right!"
So, everyone would be left staring at the mentalist and thinking 'what the hell was that all about' ?

[Unagi]

(that was to Grund)

[LordMortis]

Was LordMortis serious in claiming to be Wedge Antilles? Or was he LMing?

I don't recall every lying about a role.

If you're Wedge, why did you reveal so early in the game?

Awesome. Put forth another Wedge. I beg you. You don't even need to tell us who it is.

[Unagi]

For example, if you found 'wedge' you tell us, as LM is then Imperial. If you found Lando, we could lynch him to no ill effect and prove that you (a)have access to scan info and (b)the player as a Rebel. If you found Yoda, tell us as purge is then imperial.

I assume it goes without saying that if he has a bomb to drop, he should drop it.

right?

[Unagi]

Was LordMortis serious in claiming to be Wedge Antilles? Or was he LMing?

I don't recall every lying about a role.

If you're Wedge, why did you reveal so early in the game?

I'm really looking forward to this...

[Grundbegriff]

Was LordMortis serious in claiming to be Wedge Antilles? Or was he LMing?

I don't recall every lying about a role.

If you're Wedge, why did you reveal so early in the game?

Awesome. Put forth another Wedge. I beg you. You don't even need to tell us who it is.

I'm only trying to figure out why Wedge -- whose power depends for its value entirely on having Evil stumble upon him -- would throw it away by revealing himself.

I mean-- now what? Evil is supposed to choose you just because they feel like missing a kill?

[Grundbegriff]

Was LordMortis serious in claiming to be Wedge Antilles? Or was he LMing?

I don't recall every lying about a role.

If you're Wedge, why did you reveal so early in the game?

I'm really looking forward to this...

To what?

[triggercut]

I thought LM saying he was Wedge Antilles was some sort of LordMortis ambien-like post.

He's saying that's what he is?

Why in hell would you reveal that?

[Unagi]

Odd.
Why even tell us that your scan was a special.
No one would have demanded to know if the person had a role.

What would be the point of saying I had scanned someone and was keeping mum?

You say:
Bubba is a rebel, as is triggercut.

We lynch you and you turn up Rebel.... then we simply know that Bubba and triggercut are Rebel.
XOR
You die in the night (because they won't pass on you twice, will they?)... then we simply know that Bubba and triggercut are Rebel.

That's the point of saying you "scanned Bubba, he is not an Imp" and nothing more .

And, you know this.

[Unagi]

I thought LM saying he was Wedge Antilles was some sort of LordMortis ambien-like post.

He's saying that's what he is?

Why in hell would you reveal that?

Oh, Get. Out!

[Unagi]

Was LordMortis serious in claiming to be Wedge Antilles? Or was he LMing?

I don't recall every lying about a role.

If you're Wedge, why did you reveal so early in the game?

I'm really looking forward to this...

To what?

Well, to what it looked like you were about to do. But maybe I was wrong, so I will stop looking forward to that.

[Grundbegriff]

I thought LM saying he was Wedge Antilles was some sort of LordMortis ambien-like post.

That's what I thought at first-- LMing. But Chaosraven's taking him seriously prompted my inquiry, and lo! A tragic waste, if true.

[Grundbegriff]

That's the point of saying you "scanned Bubba, he is not an Imp" and nothing more . And, you know this.

Saying only "I found a Rebel" without any more texture than that would look fake or feeble. I want to give something concrete that people can invest their beliefs and reasoning in.

You see, I'd like us to win. And for all the noise and fog and obfuscation and flocculence, it all comes down to knowledge.

[Unagi]

Is there harm in revealing that any one of those exists?

Is there any point? I mean, spell that out for me. You tell us Role X is what you scannned - and then what?

Let's pretend that you aren't entirely trusted and we speculate on what you have to say...

I mean, we wouldn't know if you were naming a role that actually wasn't in the game - until, well, never - because the 'last wolf' could just claim it.
And - if the role was in the game - then what? Do you bank on that person to trust you? ("Hey, look, I have the Queen of Clubs, that guy must be a mentalist!!")

[Qantaga]

You say:
Bubba is a rebel, as is triggercut.

We lynch you and you turn up Rebel.... then we simply know that Bubba and triggercut are Rebel.
XOR
You die in the night (because they won't pass on you twice, will they?)... then we simply know that Bubba and triggercut are Rebel.

That's the point of saying you "scanned Bubba, he is not an Imp" and nothing more .

And, you know this.

At the risk of "cozying up" to Unagi again, he is spot on here.

A name and their alignment was the data we needed from your (spoofed or real) scan today.

[Qantaga]

That's the point of saying you "scanned Bubba, he is not an Imp" and nothing more . And, you know this.

Saying only "I found a Rebel" without any more texture than that would look fake or feeble.

The problem is that the tact you have taken is the exact tact a spoofing Talon would take.

[Grundbegriff]

Is there harm in revealing that any one of those exists?

Is there any point? I mean, spell that out for me. You tell us Role X is what you scannned - and then what?

Let's pretend that you aren't entirely trusted and we speculate on what you have to say...

I mean, we wouldn't know if you were naming a role that actually wasn't in the game - until, well, never - because the 'last wolf' could just claim it.
And - if the role was in the game - then what? Do you bank on that person to trust you? ("Hey, look, I have the Queen of Clubs, that guy must be a mentalist!!")

Interesting points.

See, this is why I called for discussion!

[Grundbegriff]

That's the point of saying you "scanned Bubba, he is not an Imp" and nothing more . And, you know this.

Saying only "I found a Rebel" without any more texture than that would look fake or feeble.

The problem is that the tact you have taken is the exact tact a spoofing Talon would take.

Insidious, isn't it?

[Lassr]

Yesterday I was erring on the side of safety so to speak. But all these "coincidences" are starting to smell.

[Unagi]

Was LordMortis serious in claiming to be Wedge Antilles? Or was he LMing?

I don't recall every lying about a role.

If you're Wedge, why did you reveal so early in the game?

Awesome. Put forth another Wedge. I beg you. You don't even need to tell us who it is.

I'm only trying to figure out why Wedge -- whose power depends for its value entirely on having Evil stumble upon him -- would throw it away by revealing himself.

I mean-- now what? Evil is supposed to choose you just because they feel like missing a kill?

Or they are bummed out because he was (IMO) mostly trusted - and they are trying to turn that around.

I suppose as Talon you may have scanned him, if you had actually taken that claim as a claim. So, yeah it's too bad that you just saw it as something LM would say and not mean.
It's too bad, because it would be great to (eventually, upon your death) have a guy that's totally trusted and has 2 night hitpoints.
(or perhaps you would have had that Imperial you wish you could have given us)

On the other hand, as Evil, it would be great to get us to test-lynch LM only to discover we lynched Wedge.

[LordMortis]

I thought LM saying he was Wedge Antilles was some sort of LordMortis ambien-like post.

That's what I thought at first-- LMing. But Chaosraven's taking him seriously prompted my inquiry, and lo! A tragic waste, if true.

You would prefer I wait until later when pressed to be lynched and then say "don't lynch me! Unless they have Bane they can't kill me easy!"

[Grundbegriff]

At the risk of "cozying up" to Unagi again, he is spot on here. A name and their alignment was the data we needed from your (spoofed or real) scan today.

With respect, that's one of the least sensible things you've ever said in these games. Not because it's wrong; because whether it's right or wrong depends on the specifics, and you're usually inclined to pay attention to the specifics, and you're riding roughshod over them now.

Saying "Bubba is a Rebel" is (for those inclined to trust my claim) tantamount to saying "Bubba is trusted". And saying that is putting Bubba in the crosshairs.

All else equal, Evil wants to reduce the number of trusteds. So flagging someone as trustworthy puts that person on a shortlist. One might want to do that; on the other hand, one might not.

You'll see my point, I hope, when I phrase the issue as a question: "Given that Bubba is X, do I want to make a move that will, in all likelihood, shorten rather than conserve or extend Bubba's life?"

You may join Unagi in armchair speculation, Qantaga, but I actually have to face that decision. And on balance, I'm inclined to think that divulging the role is more prudent than putting its bearer on (or confirming its bearer's presence on) a shortlist of candidates for death.